English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user227867

12:00 AM

@Tonepoet That is a good definition. I like it.

@Tonepoet Aww, I just realized that the left arm of that guy got amputated. Time to file a bug report! Chat needs to support my need for emojis to express what I can't say using language

Tonepoet

Ehehe.

sumelic

@Tonepoet That picture seems to be interestingly self-referential in various ways.

Tonepoet

The original illustration used the book's red cover, but I don't know where to find that online.

user227867

My favourite part of that pic is the WOW!

user227867

12:07 AM

I am going to take a nap. Good night.

sumelic

@JasperLoy Good night.

Cerberus

12:53 AM

> reubicación

@tchrist That's a nice word. Is it from ubi?

Tonepoet

1:28 AM

Why do my fingers disobey me? I want to write weasel, not weasle...

tchrist

1:42 AM

@Cerberus From ubicar, yes.

Tonepoet

1:59 AM

Oh @tchrist one thing I want to note is that I used the plain font version primarily because I wanted to give Jasper the best odds of reading the text to make it clear that he never stood a chance, even under optimal conditions. The webpage I got that image from also has a printed image I could've used you might like to see:

tchrist

Why would he never stand a chance? I knew what it said immediately.

Tonepoet

Because it takes specialized study to read ye olde english that most of us don't have. Even The American Heritage Dictionary First Ed. states as much in its preliminary texts.

tchrist

Thinks like þin rice are completely obvious.

Kit Z. Fox

Hey, @tchrist, are there resources for learning how to pronounce Old English or is that something like Latin where nobody actually knows?

Tonepoet

L.O.L.

@KitZ.Fox I know you didn't ask me but I saw Youtube videos.

Kit Z. Fox

2:04 AM

I don't know YouTube videos. I know tchrist.

tchrist

7

A: How do we know how words were pronounced hundreds of years ago?

Rhymes are one way of knowing how things were pronounced. For example, if ‘care’ and ‘there’ suddenly start to rhyme, when they didn’t previously, we know that the well-known and well-documented effects of /r/ on the previous vowel must now have begun to take place, and that the vowels have aroun...

The Old English transcriptions into the Latin alphabet used the Latin values where available. They had phonemic length for their um 7*2 vowels.

a ae e i o u y

ucalgary.ca/uofc/eduweb/engl401/lessons/pronunc1.htm#sources

> How Do We Know What Old English Pronunciation Was Like?

Well, actually, we may not have a very accurate idea of Old English pronunciation, compared to how accurately we can describe the pronunciation of languages that are spoken now. It would probably take even the best modern phonologist of Old English some time to learn to communicate fluently with a shipload of sword-waving Anglo-Saxons who arrived through a time-tunnel at a beach in the modern world, just as it takes someone who has learned to read French entirely through books some time to make herself understood in Paris or Montréa…

Any text on Old English will tell you "how" to pronounce it. That one does, for example.

Kit Z. Fox

Now I know what I'm doing with my Saturday.

I'm going to hangout and learn some Old English.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes.

Tonepoet

2:22 AM

@KitZ.Fox It's nice to have friends introduce you to strangers sometimes. XP

Kit Z. Fox

@Tonepoet Thanks.

Such glorious tingles from that.

good night y'all.

Tonepoet

G'night.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

3:55 AM

Here's a nice section of the OED.

Lawrence

5:22 AM

@Fiksdal I haven't seen much comment on this site about your question yet, though I'm still catching up with the transcript. I'll say that "didn't used to get" looks wrong to me. I saw the references to the idiomatic "used to" ("use to" doesn't idiomatically reference what one habitually did or does), but using the past tense "used" with did(n't) just doesn't sit well with me. I'm interested to hear from others here about this.

Tonepoet

6:04 AM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I know those words. The highlighted phrase was my mother's choice of ironic remarks whenever she was unimpressed with something.

I also have a dictionary of american slang next to me which has an entry for it.

'Interjection An expression of surprise or joy. Obs. N. Exuberance; noisy confusion; celebration; a lavish display of emotions or material wealth; advertising, ballyhoo. 1936: "The room still holds its pink bloom and the chandeliers give it all a gay sense of flossy whoop-de-doo." Esquire, Sept.,20. 1941: "But, in spite of all this whoop-de-doo, West Hartfordians' emotions were mixed."'

I need to examine more of the resources I have at my disposal when writing my answers...

Lawrence

6:24 AM

@Cerberus Do you have any comments about "didn't used to get" in Fiksdal's post?

13

Q: "Didn't use to get" or "Didn't used to get"?

I just made a minor grammar correction on Travel SE, and another user said the grammar correction was unnecessary. The original text was Another factor--sometimes life happens and you can't fly. In the old days you could simply sell your ticket to someone else, now you either have to eat a h...

Tonepoet

@Lawrence I read something about "tense marker" restrictions in an answer here once but I don't recollect what it was.

"Didn't used" uses two tense markers side by side, so it seems odd. Taking it to a further extreme, "Didn't used to got" sounds even stranger, doesn't it?

Lawrence

@Tonepoet This one? english.stackexchange.com/questions/285262/do-as-a-tense-marker

Tonepoet

I don't recall.

It's the phrase that stuck out in my mind.

I don't even know what it means fully but I think the point was that it was restricted to one in a clause or whatever.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet Yes, it sounds decidedly odd. I was surprised to see the apparent support quoted. Looking up the quoted support cited in the accepted answer, I don't find them compelling.

Tonepoet

I don't have much faith in Stack Exchange's voting system.

I talked about that in reviewer's chat before.

Lawrence

6:36 AM

@Tonepoet Yeah. I'm not saying that the accepted answer was correct, though. It did, however, cite several sources that, on the face of it, strongly support the "didn't used to" construction.

Tonepoet

Sometimes it sounds fine though.

Lawrence

They couldn't get BBC over the line. :)

Tonepoet

"We didn't used to do that!" sounds better doesn't it?

So it's probably something about the word "get".

Lawrence

@Tonepoet No, that might simply be the d-t running together.

Tonepoet

You don't think so huh?

Lawrence

6:41 AM

@Tonepoet Nope.

Tonepoet

Hmm...

Plugging it into Google the top result I actually got was from E.L.U. interestingly enough.

0

A: "How did it use/d to work?"; 'use' or 'used'?

English has two idiomatic constructions, both spelled used to, and also both pronounced /'yustu/ or /'yustə/ -- never /'yuzdtu/. One is the transitive predicate adjective be used to, always with an auxiliary be, which means 'be accustomed to', and which can take a gerund complement clause. I'...

Lawler thinks it's awful too.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet He doesn't like either form, considers it "a bug in the orthographic system".

Tonepoet

I never thought of orthography as extending beyond a single word before.

Lawrence

Hmm, here's some formal support for the "used" form (though it suggests never used to as a workaround): books.google.com.au/…

Tonepoet

I was thinking about that.

Lawler's suggestion regarding the form does end in "but only in writing." which suggests that both forms do get said often enough though.

@Lawrence I can't read that for some reason.

Lawrence

6:57 AM

@Tonepoet Try this instead: lawprose.org/garners-usage-tip-of-the-day-used-to-2

It's the same text as the entry in the larger volume, I think.

Tonepoet

Yeah, that looks right.

Lawrence

Having read the views of Lawler and Garner, I'm prepared to go as far as to call it a bug in the system, be it orthographic or whatever.

Tonepoet

I never said it was very posh.

Shafizadeh

@Tonepoet The best solution ever :-)

Lawrence

@Tonepoet :) No, this is me mulling over my own conclusions again. No reflection on you.

Tonepoet

7:04 AM

My main point was, I'm more comfortable with "didn't used to do" than "didn't used to get" for some reason.

Maybe it's just my memory failing me though.

I don't know. XP

Shafizadeh

After a whole day listening to a sentence, I figured out it isn't "has a going", It is "how is it going" :-)

sumelic

@Shafizadeh Heh, those would sound very similar.

Lawrence

@Tonepoet :)

Shafizadeh

yeah

Lawrence

@Shafizadeh Which country / region is the speaker from?

Shafizadeh

7:13 AM

@Lawrence Dunno .. I was watching the Big Bang Theory serial

Lawrence

Oh, ok.

Shafizadeh

Is this sentence correct? "That star next to your nickname is because of you're the person how has built the group."

Tonepoet

"Because of you're" sounds strange. Take out the of at least. Maybe somebody else has further commentary.

Shafizadeh

ah ok .. :-)

Lawrence

@Shafizadeh who has built

Shafizadeh

7:17 AM

@Lawrence oh .. yeah I meant was that

@Tonepoet thx

Tonepoet

Wait no.

@Shafizdeh "That star next to your nickname is there because you're the person who built the group."

I forgot that part.

Shafizadeh

I see .. well thx again :-)

just one thing, "who built" or "who has built" ?

brb

sumelic

I wonder who upvoted this: english.stackexchange.com/questions/343226/rewrite-help-me Aside from being off-topic, it's an odd assignment. I can't figure out what answer would be expected for #3.

Lawrence

Also, "X is because Y" should make Y the reason for X. It would sound more fluent with X as a verb or verb-phrase. E.g. "The star was placed next to your name because you built the group."

(This agrees with what Tonepoet said, but I took too long trying to find a justification for noun for X.)

sumelic

@Shafizadeh I would use "who built" here. But either seems OK.

Lawrence

7:28 AM

Consider: "You exist because ..." vs "You because ..."

Tonepoet

"Is there" is an effect and "because" signifies that the following clause caused that effect, is how I might explain it.

Or more accurately, if you just said "is" then it'd be the wrong effect being stated. Just existing versus existing in a specific spot.

sumelic

@Lawrence This question seems relevant: Is it correct to say "the reason is because..."?

@Lawrence "You because" is not quite equivalent because in "The star is because...", there is a verb connecting the noun phrase and the word "because."

Tonepoet

The reason is by cause of your doubt.

Hmm...

The reason exists by cause of your doubtfulness.

Nah, here's the deal, it's an equation. "The reason = because of this." It seems grammatically fine because it's intentionally redundant.

More like "this is that" or "two plus two is four".

Lawrence

7:50 AM

@sumelic Fair enough. compare "You exist because (reason)" vs "You are because (reason)". It's not necessarily ungrammatical, just a less usual register. Perhaps it would be more helpful to say that "(Noun) because (reason)" should be used with the intent of speaking in those more unusual registers.

Nice chatting with you all. :)

Tonepoet

Bye Lawrence

sumelic

@Lawrence same, good night!

Shafizadeh

@sumelic aha ok

@sumelic What do you mean upvote? It has earned -1 downvote .. (however maybe that -1 is the difference between upvotes and downvotes .. that's why I don't see any upvote now)

Tonepoet

@Shafizadeh Try clicking on the number.

Shafizadeh

@Tonepoet I cannot .. I don't have reputation enough

Tonepoet

8:01 AM

Ah, I see.

Shafizadeh

One question, Which one is correct?
- I don't have reputation enough
- I don't have enough reputation

Tonepoet

The second option is the correct one.

Shafizadeh

ah ok :-)

Tonepoet

Adjectives normally go before nouns.

Shafizadeh

got it

sumelic

8:05 AM

@Tonepoet It looks like "enough" is an adverb though. Or at least in some cases--I'm not sure if that page is saying it's not an adverb when used as a determiner.

Shafizadeh

btw, anybody knows what's the meaning of "cum" in sexy contexts?

sumelic

@Shafizadeh Hah. Urban Dictionary would probably tell you! It's semen.

Tonepoet

Determiners are sometimes considered adjectives @Sumelic.

Shafizadeh

oh ok

sumelic

@Shafizadeh It's considered a colloquial spelling. In formal contexts (it doesn't appear that often in those) it would be spelled "come," same as the verb. I think they're the same etymologically.

Shafizadeh

8:07 AM

@sumelic interesting

Tonepoet

@Shafizadeh Seminal fluid.

sumelic

As a verb, "come" means "reach orgasm," or by extension, "ejaculate."

Shafizadeh

@Tonepoet Yeah I got it

@sumelic Stop please talking about this subject .. disgusting .. I got what I was looking for .. thx again ;-)

Tonepoet

@Shafizadeh Don't ask if you don't want to know. XP

sumelic

@Shafizadeh :) be careful what you ask

Shafizadeh

8:10 AM

Hah :-) trust me, I didn't know what "cum" means .. If I did, I never asked ;-)

sumelic

@Tonepoet I guess so. That would explain the word order, kind of. Although it wouldn't explain why it comes after adjectives when it is an adverb.

Tonepoet

@Sumelic It doesn't really matter. He wants to modify the noun reputation rather than the verb have, so it's an adjective.

Adverbs often come at the end of sentences and I don't know why. I only know a few basic rules regarding syntax.

sumelic

@Tonepoet I also still need to learn about syntax. I only know classroom grammar.

Tonepoet

Hmm, I wish I knew that much. >_>

DEAD

Hmm, I wish I knew that much. >_>

sumelic

8:20 AM

@DEAD Hi DEAD!

Tonepoet

@Dead Ditto.

DEAD

But we force people to happily read some boring documentation? That's not gonna work PED. People don't read help centers anywhere. And well, I was just indicating why this might not be such a high-priority thing. Once people stick around -- and I think people that do stick around are the ones you said "we most want to hear from" -- they forget about help center and the documentation, since everything is available at finer details on per site metas and meta.SE. — DEAD 27 mins ago

@sumelic \o

Tonepoet

@Dead I read the Help Center. =P

DEAD

@Tonepoet Yet another piece of evidence that you're odd

sumelic

@DEAD I think the Help Center on ELU is actually a bit out-of-date. Or at least, there are off-topic reasons that were established on Meta that aren't listed in there. It kind of annoys me.

DEAD

8:23 AM

@sumelic It's always like that.

Tonepoet

@sumelic The bothersome thing is that meta sets policy. It shouldn't work like that.

DEAD

Very new users, 1 rep -> Go read "help".

Tonepoet

The help center should set policy and meta should modify the help center.

DEAD

Just getting started, 300 rep -> Go read "meta".

I wanna become a site veteran, 3000 rep -> God help ya

sumelic

I guess most users probably won't learn about the close reasons until their question is closed anyway. But it feels kind of unfair to vote to close for a reason that's not listed in the Help Center

Tonepoet

8:24 AM

Part of the problem is that the help center isn't sufficiently customized.

sumelic

@Tonepoet I saw some question recently on Meta SE recently about that.

DEAD

Well, as I said, anyone who wants to dig a bit deeper than the most general stuff should go to meta, not "help".

The problem lies in the fact that there's so much to learn about what SE really is and how it differs from, say, Answers.com.

sumelic

38

Q: Allow moderators to add local guidance to the "how to ask a good question" page in the help center

The help center includes some good advice on how to ask a good question. This is good baseline advice for all sites, and this page is the same across the network. Some sites have developed additional guidance, like the Stack Overflow checklist, Worldbuilding's questions to think about, Workplac...

feature-request moderator-tools help-center

Tonepoet

@sumelic I saw a topic regarding the matter a long time ago. Let me dig it up.

12

Q: Report "Errors" in English Language & Usage?

I was going through the FAQs in Help Section and came across this question .... Can I support my product on this site? Types of questions and where to ask: How do I? -- ask on English Language & Usage Stack Exchange (tell them what tags to use -- your product tag at minimum) I got...

discussion feature-request

DEAD

Start with http.

Tonepoet

8:31 AM

Yeah, I figured. I don't know why it didn't already have htt p://www.

DEAD

@Tonepoet Well, there isn't a point to be made that I don't agree with.

Guidance in SE just sucks.

Some of it is because of the existence of a messy wasteland called meta.SE.

Some of it is because of the existence of a place you can go and ask your questions called per site metas.

Tonepoet

Some of it is because we have unrealistic expectations too...

I mean if it was just Gen. Ref., that's fine, but adding P.O.B. to that is a recipe for disaster.

Mainly because people forget P.O.B. is qualified at all.

DEAD

9:33 AM

imgur.com/gallery/T7xRe

caub

my fav songs youtube.com/watch?v=YC4t8FLwdLA youtube.com/watch?v=5QgKMJYwo5w

user227867

10:00 AM

Hi @Tonepoet you seem to be in many chat rooms, lol.

sumelic

@JasperLoy Hi Jasper

user227867

@sumelic I see you are on 42 sites =)

sumelic

@JasperLoy Lol. It's because they force you to join just to vote or leave a comment on one post. I guess it's kind of a record of things I'm somewhat interested in.

@JasperLoy Which site would you say you are on most usually? I can see you have the most posts now on Math, but I don't know if that's a coincidence.

curiousdannii

@JasperLoy I think I've got accounts on 93. Mostly that's just from clicking through on the HNQ list and wanting to upvote things

user227867

@sumelic I would say either Math or English. I mostly log on but do nothing. =)

sumelic

10:12 AM

@JasperLoy There are a few SE sites that are like that for me. It's quite an effective time-sink at least...

terdon

93!? Wow. I "only" have 61

DEAD

Well, I have about 20, and like 15 are only to flag or upvote stuff,

and I haven't visited A51 in a long, long time

tchrist

@terdon I can do better than that. :-):-):-)

user227867

10:29 AM

Very little traffic on Buddhism SE. Support the site if you are interested. It is still in beta.

YOU

Hello Everyone!

DEAD

\o

YOU

There is a sentence: All meals include
salad, homemade dessert, paper service

What paper service mean? (It's a catering business)

What is paper service?

terdon

This morning, the production servers at work were down because of an electricity outage. This is the actual email we received from our provider. No joke:

> Dear Sir or Madam,

A general power failure due to a short circuit caused by the presence of a weasel in the transformer occurred on Wednesday August 17 at 05:30.

Our emergency response teams intervened and the power has been restored. However, if you note a persistent failure, please
contact the PCC at 34000.

We apologize for this inconvenience and thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Yours sincerely

We used to have bugs, now we have small mammals!

caub

weasel teeth/jaw are strong

DEAD

10:45 AM

@terdon Next time, it's gonna be a T-rex

caub

and next a meteorite

sumelic

@YOU I'd never heard of it either. Google shows some other examples online related to catering, like "Since the Student Union does not have paper service, you have the availability to take food out of the Student Union in the following: - Eco Clamshells will be available to take out food - Bring your own cup: up to 32 oz" (Meal Plans Cincinnati Christian University).

It sounds like it has to do with packing leftover food for takeout.

Or maybe not leftovers, just any food for takeout.

@YOU Actually, I found some examples that contrast it with china service, so what it seems to mean is that they will provide paper plates/napkins, plastic serving utensils rather than ceramic plates, metal silverware, cloth napkins.

Good night @everyone!

user227867

@sumelic See you in your dreams.

DEAD

11:00 AM

@terdon Next time, it's gonna be a T-rex

terdon

17 mins ago, by DEAD

@terdon Next time, it's gonna be a T-rex

You seem to be having short term memory issues :P

DEAD

Oh.

Weird.

Chat did double post messages before.

But after so much time?

curiousdannii

11:20 AM

@terdon I think I counted 35 sites where I had posted a question or answer. So 2/3rds were just for voting on

I'm sure lots of people would have even more site accounts than me

terdon

Oh sure, same here. I don't think I've posted on more than a dozen or so.

DEAD

@curiousdannii Lots? Well, there are a bunch of people with an account on every single site.

user227867

12:09 PM

Hello @Kit. You looked great in glasses while treating wounds.

Kit Z. Fox

Thanks @Jasper.

I like that you're not a solid color today.

Also, I'm a fan of Van Gogh.

Kit Z. Fox

12:37 PM

> Feminists don’t critique objectification because we are mad that people sometimes have sex feelings for each other.

I laughed.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ^

Lawrence

@Tonepoet Actually, meta modifying the help center is meta setting policy. I agree with your implication that once a policy is marked as accepted on meta, the help center should be edited to reflect the new policy.

user227867

I am going to eat a big dinner now, lol.

Lawrence

@sumelic Yes, this is a problem. One of the main pieces of advice to newcomers deemed errant is to visit the help center; and one of the main objections in reply is that the help center agrees with them.

user227867

Although this site has rules, we should not treat them like they are laws.

user227867

A user likes to say "the following is the strict rule of this community", which sounds very silly.

Mitch

12:53 PM

@JasperLoy I find it intolerant and lacking in empathy. You should never be strict!

@KitZ.Fox When I was a kid, my room looked like that @JasperLoy. Hmmm...or my memory has astigmatism.

Kit Z. Fox

Seems more like myopia than astigmatism.

But hindsight is always 20/200.

Mitch

'astigmatism' sounds more like 'totally messed up perspective'. also synesthesia.

Here's a very minor annoyance with the mod election...

user36188

astigmatism means splited sight

DEAD

@Mitch What is it?

Kit Z. Fox

It's still going.

Mitch

12:58 PM

@user36188 It's nice to know that astigmatism has a meaning. Otherwise I'd be ratchet knob in the chain wax

user36188

ok thank you

Mitch

By the way, what does 'ratchet' mean? The recent slang thing.

@DEAD Oh, right, I was saying something.

DEAD

in The Periodic Table, Jun 15 '15 at 21:14, by LordStryker

How I feel now that its started, I voted, and I have to sit and wait: http://i.imgur.com/wRIND9w.gif

Mitch

I find the answers to the questions well reasoned, insightful, responsible, and... much too long to read.

user36188

ratchet Means a device consisting of a bar or wheel with a set of angled teeth in which a pawl, cog, or tooth engages, allowing motion in one direction only

Mitch

1:00 PM

10 questions by 10 people? And each one an intellectual effort to judge quality? And then compare with others?

user36188

for vehicles we can use the ratchet for tight the Bold in the tyres etc

Mitch

Maybe that's why peope are voting almost entirely correlated with the simple measure of 'rep'.

@user36188 Excellent! Now I'd like to know what the 'recent slang thing' means.

UD as usual gives a hint in the right ballpark but then gives five different answers as to specifics.

I thought I knew what 'shade' was, eventually looked it up on UD, then eventually realized what I knew first was right.

Kit Z. Fox

Are you throwing shade?

Mitch

drops shade

Lawrence

@Mitch Only for the more verbose among us. Tchrist's is actually quite succinct. Mine's one of the worst. They seem to expand between concept and keyboard. Maybe I should try to distill them.

Mitch

1:05 PM

picks it back up again

@Lawrence Nonono! I'm not complaining that you did them, they're all great.

It's just that it's a lot to process.

and frankly each issue deserves an essay each

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah. It might be better to have one question for each question so I can focus on comparing the candidates on the issues I care most about first.

And that might be easier for the candidates too.

Lawrence

@Mitch Oh, just in time. I just opened the Q&A page. :)

Mitch

One could say that the answers are not really for the voters to assess candidates but really to have the candidates articulate reasons for themselves.

DEAD

@Mitch Yes, that's usually the case

Mitch

sort of how teachers learn so much more in preparation for their students

Which brings me to the real issue...

Lawrence

1:11 PM

@KitZ.Fox Here's a suggestion: how about spacing them out over the election? Have just one or two questions at a time open over 24 to 48 hours (to cater for different time zones and thinking time), then freeze the question and move on to the next one or two.

Mitch

Any good jokes today?

@Lawrence I was going to suggest a spreadsheet with a weighting function.

or voting attached to paypal accounts.

Lawrence

@Mitch Well, you could just vote based on whichever icon you liked best. :)

Mitch

@Lawrence that should definitely be one desideratum

weighted heavily

Kit Z. Fox

@Lawrence Yes, that's a pretty good idea. I think we should also anonymize the answers until after they are locked.

Mitch

@KitZ.Fox yeah.

because people are reading them as they come in and possibly not the later ones at all.

(that's a little orthogonal, but anyway)

Lawrence

1:14 PM

@KitZ.Fox That's an interesting concept - vote for the answers you like, then after voting, you get to see whom you've elected.

DEAD

@Lawrence Well, not many people follow the show

Kit Z. Fox

And people are biased.

@Lawrence Yes.

Lawrence

@DEAD If they're faced with walls of text, I don't blame them.

terdon

Yeah. Reading all the answers takes quite a bit of time. I haven't finished them yet, for example. I think only the regulars will.

Mitch

walls of text protect against the elements of shallow thought

terdon

1:16 PM

And not even all of those.

Lawrence

Back in a bit.

user227867

@Mitch Well, that is not my room. To see my room, see my videos, lol.

Mitch

@JasperLoy get some orange paint then.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 There are so many words missing...

google.com/search?q=whoop+de+effing+doo

user227867

2

Q: How do you know if you have attained Nibbana?

You read the suttas, understand their meaning, and put the teachings into practice. At the end of the day, how do you know if you have attained Nibbana? I think this is an important question because Nibbana is the ultimate goal and you need to know if you have finally reached the end.