English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

ktm5124

12:00 AM

@Mitch Oh? Is this a book for learning Latin? I wouldn't have connected Encyclopedia Britannica with a Latin textbook.

Cerberus

Good, good.

Mitch

@ktm5124 yes, for learning Latin. Yes, I wouldn't have figured either.

I'm looking around now.

tchrist

1:02 AM

2

Q: Could we please use ElasticSearch stemmers tuned for non-English language sites?

TLDR: Can’t we please use stemmers matched to site languages? According to this post from Nick Craver and this post from Haney, our searches are using the ElasticSearch stemmers. The problem is that stemmers have to be tuned for each particular language being used, or they generate too many fals...

Cerberus

6:35 AM

-8

Q: Do people with a lisp write in the same way they pronounce?

Just curious to know whether people having a lisp (speech defect) write in the same way as they pronounce the word. For example they pronounce s as /θ/ and z as /θ/. So, do they write 's' as 'th' like with the word thick written as sick? Another example as Spanish is spoken with a lisp, like pez...

meaning differences pronunciation speech

God, I hate the PC police. Users suck. This question is extremely interesting and fine.

Now high-rep users are even voting to close one of our seminal questions, one that is among our most interesting and popular ones.

sumelic

@Cerberus I didn't downvote it for PC reasons. I downvoted it because it didn't seem to have much thought put into it. There are many cases where people don't spell as they speak. I have merged the vowels of "cot" and "caught,' but that doesn't mean I spell "caught" as "cot". The only thing I think saves the question is AGreen's interesting answer.

Cerberus

@sumelic Okay, very well, not you, then, but some other people seemed PC about it.

As to A. Green's answer, don't you think it's strange that a question should be legitimate or not based merely on what kinds of answers it gets?

(That issue is indeed unrelated to PC-ness directly, but I do think people tend to say "this is not possible" more easily when they feel PC about a question.)

sumelic

@Cerberus Well, the point of the site is to be a resource of good Q&A pairs, not just questions. When I read the question, I just thought about how silly it was. The answer helped show me that it might be an interesting topic after all.

Cerberus

Okay, so there are two issues here (I'm resetting my count!):

1. A question based on a misconception is not legitimate (I strongly disagree with this).

sumelic

@Cerberus Hmm. I wonder what kind of research would be expected for that question. I didn't find an explanation in any of the general reference dictionaries I checked so far

Cerberus

6:50 AM

2. An answer that says "this does not happen, because your question is based on a misconception, and here is why" is not useful/interesting (I disagree again).

@sumelic I strongly object to how people seem to be demanding research from everyone for no good reason; a good reason for me is either when the question is otherwise hard to interpret, or when the answer can be easily looked up in a basic online dictionary.

sumelic

@Cerberus The thing is that the misconception seemed so bizarre to me that I didn't think an answer explaining it would be very useful. "No, because spelling is not a transcription of the sounds that come out of people's mouths"? That's something that's very clear to anyone who knows the first thing about English spelling (e.g. Brits don't respell "short" as "shawt", Americans don't respell "cloth" as "clawth").

Cerberus

If it can be looked up in an elementary grammar book, then it should be moved to ELL if possible; if not, then it should be answered here.

@sumelic It may be clear to you, but that would be a very useful (though wrong) answer in this case.

If Green's answer had not been posted, the question together with Andrew's answer would have been relevant and interesting.

I'm sure there are many others who are not up to date on Anglo–Saxon linguistics who might wonder about this question.

sumelic

@Cerberus Right. It makes me somewhat irritated in retrospect at the change of the close reason from "general reference". I think that was a better reason.

Cerberus

@sumelic Hmm.

I see your point.

On the other hand, sometimes a question seemed GR; it seemed as though what the OP wanted to know could be easily looked up, while in fact what he meant was slightly different and more subtle; and closing the question as GR did not indicate as well that the question could be made valid by explaining better why a dictionary did not provide enough information.

sumelic

7:06 AM

I edited the lisp question to try to make it more comprehensible and less confusing, and removed my downvote.

Cerberus

OK, good.

sumelic

@Cerberus I guess. I'd assume that the OP would know how to argue if the question is not actually answered by a general reference. I guess it might be discouraging, but having a question closed (or put "on hold") seems to be generally discouraging no matter how it's presented.

Cerberus

I don't think it's OK to close questions based on misconceptions if they can be answered (even if only by a "no"); but it's fine to edit questions to remove or mitigate some of the misconceptions.

@sumelic Hmm.

I'm not sure what to think.

I mean, I see your point, but it seems to me that either reason has its advantages and disadvantages.

ktm5124

7:21 AM

That lisp question is interesting.

I like AGreen's answer. I can see that happening...

There might be more coincidences where a word, when lisped, produces a like-sounding valid word. Then the brain, processing sound before meaning, produces the word that sounds like the lisped word but is really a different word.

Maybe "saw" and "thaw".

Cerberus

Yeah.

I have also seen similar typos from Dutchmen in English, who will e.g. pronounce think as fink or sink.

ktm5124

I could see them spelling it that way too, especially if they aren't too familiar with English spelling. (Because in that case they might spell a word phonetically rather than from memory.)

Cerberus

Well, even people who are familiar enough with the proper spelling may occasionally make a typo like that.

It's just like how you and I might typo definately sometimes.

Even though we know the proper spelling.

ktm5124

I see. In that case, our mind would be on autopilot, and we would be spelling phonetically?

Cerberus

And even though we know the reason behind the spelling, its Latin roots.

And even though we are aware of the fact that it is a common typo.

Yeah.

ktm5124

7:34 AM

The more Latin roots you learn, the worse speller you become.

Cerberus

Hah!

You think so?

I don't?

I find that it often helps me.

ktm5124

I think it explains why American public schools are shutting down Latin programs. There's a bad-spelling epidemic...

Hehe, nah just joking.

I'm not sure if it helps me with spelling, but Latin helps me understand that words are not arbitrary.

Cerberus

Grr!

ktm5124

I can think of words in terms of [prefix]-root-[suffix], and see that most English words were made from building blocks.

Cerberus

Well, consider when you want to write definately. How was it spelled again? Oh, of course, it's from finis, so it must be an i.

ktm5124

7:36 AM

Oh, I never knew that. Thanks!

Cerberus

Oh!

ktm5124

I just read about that i-stem 3rd declension word in my textbook the other day.

Cerberus

Well, you no doubt know such etymological mnaemonics about other words, right?

Good, good.

ktm5124

I see the Latin etymology of most Latinate words. Like respect, domination, conspicuous, etc.

(Not sure if I am correctly referring to them as Latinate...)

Cerberus

You are.

And you might also know that it's dominare in Latin, not domanare, so you know it's not domanation in English.

ktm5124

7:39 AM

I like how the Latin third declension bears similarities to the Greek third declension. They both have consonant stems and they both have plural endings in -es.

In a way, learning one reinforces the other.

Cerberus

Of course you also have to know a bit about how Latin words are usually adopted by English, what rules apply. But one develops a grasp of those rules intuitively after a while.

@ktm5124 Absolutely!

ktm5124

I think the 1st and 2nd declensions have some similarities too.

Cerberus

Have you ever wondered where the accusative -a came from?

ktm5124

the -i ending in the 2nd

Cerberus

Yes, they do.

It is speculated that many case endings were once suffixes (which in turn were ones particles/adverbs).

ktm5124

7:41 AM

Well, Greek has an accusative -a in the third declension (m./f.). But both Greek and Latin have accusative -a in the neuter plural. Are you referring to one of these?

Cerberus

So the dative -i may have been a particle i that was attached to stems like reg- and domina- resulting in regi and domini.

David Wallace

But if you're the sort of person who things the English might be domanate, then why wouldn't you similarly think that the Latin might be domanare? (Does dommanere mean to stay at home?)

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Ah, I meant the former.

The latter is entirely unrelated to the former (although it may be related to the nominative feminine -a? Not sure).

@DavidWallace Greetings!

David Wallace

Ciao, Dog. Aren't case endings suffixes?

ktm5124

@Cerberus Oh! I can see that. I vaguely remember thinking that when looking over the Latin 3rd declension.

Cerberus

7:45 AM

That is true; but, if you are sure about one, then that helps you with the other; and, secondly, it is easier to remember the spelling of a short word: it would look wrong to spell finas in Latin more quickly/easily to you, as a learner, than would avuncilus.

David Wallace

Good point.

But then, if I were in any doubt, I would think of the English finite.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace In a way, they are; but they're generally not called that. Partly (I think) because endings with the same function will look completely different in different words, whereas a suffix always looks more or less the same.

ktm5124

rex, regis, regi, ... wait, doesn't that look like, εὐδαίμων, εὐδαίμονος, εὐδαίμονι

Cerberus

@DavidWallace That also works!

@ktm5124 Yes.

So, about the Greek accusative -a, it is a vocalisation of the common accusative ending -n.

The same applies to -as, which was once -ns: the accusative -n plus the plural -s.

The consonants m, n, l, r are often vocalised in Indo-European languages if they are part of consonant clusters that the language deems hard to pronounce.

There are many ways to vocalise them, but often the vowels o and a are involved.

ktm5124

Hmm, not sure I follow. Are you saying that Greek's third declension -a accusative comes from the -n accusative of the 1st/2nd declensions?

Cerberus

7:49 AM

So r could become ra, ar, ro, or, which are in fact observed in various Greek dialects, in the spellings of the same words.

@ktm5124 Well, yes: the n belonged to all declensions, but it was just vocalised in consonant declensions.

Especially in Greek, the vocalisation n → a is common.

ktm5124

Oh, so when you refer to the Greek accusative -a, you're referring to something within Greek, not Latin, correct? (Because as you know Latin has something called the Greek accusative, which may have tripped me up a bit.)

Cerberus

Ah, yes, I'm sorry.

ktm5124

Namely, the third declension accusative singular ending -a.

I see :)

Cerberus

I meant the Greek accusative ending -a in Greek.

Yes.

ktm5124

Huh, that's interesting. I'm reading over your explanation and thinking about it.

Cerberus

7:53 AM

Confer the alpha privans, i.e. the prefix a- in amorphic, atypical, anodyne.

That was originally just a nasal n-.

ktm5124

Oh, neat!

The alpha privative came from this habit of vocalizing consonants?

Cerberus

The same prefix as Latin in- in innumerable, immense, inordinate.

@ktm5124 Yes.

Before a consonant, it is normally vocalised as a- in Greek.

Before a vowel, as an-, as in anodyne.

David Wallace

That kind of thing would be so much simpler if all short vowels were pronounced as shwas.

Cerberus

Oh, yes?

So my original point was that the Greek 3rd declension is even more similar to the Latin than it might first appear:

David Wallace

If there a word immorphic, I might pronounce it and amorphic identically.

ktm5124

7:56 AM

I'm trying to think of Greek alpha privative words I know. The first that comes to mind is αθανατος. Did this have to do with vocalizing a consonant, too?

Cerberus

The Greek acc. ending -a is really the same as the Greek acc. ending -n, which in turn is the same as the Latin acc. ending -m.

Yes!

That is the same prefix.

ktm5124

I get that on one level, but I think I'm a little stumped on another.

Take παντα for example.

Cerberus

Wherever you see a prefix a(n)- that negates the meaning of the word, it is the alpha privans.

That's a different -a.

And the internal -a- in pant is yet another -a-.

ktm5124

Hm, how about εὐδαίμονα

What would the accusative be without vocalization?

Cerberus

Two n's.

ktm5124

7:58 AM

Oh, that makes sense.

David Wallace

Not εὐδαίμονον?

Cerberus

Nope!

Because that -o- would be a theme vowel.

But normal consonant stems don't have a theme vowel.

ktm5124

So εὐδαίμον is the stem, and then εὐδαιμονν would have been the accusative, but that last nu became vocalized to an alpha.

Cerberus

Or they would be vowel stems, not consonant stems.

@ktm5124 Yes.

David Wallace

Gee, I'd forget it all and just say πλούσιον.

ktm5124

8:00 AM

Now, consider αθανατος. What would it have been before the prefix became vocalized?

Cerberus

nthanatos

ktm5124

Oh!

That was the original way of 'privating' a noun? By adding a nu to the beginning?

Cerberus

Yes, sort of.

ktm5124

I see. And then that nu became vocalized to an alpha.

Cerberus

Just like the Latin negative prefix in- (not to be confusing with the other prefix in-, which is the same as the preposition in).

Yes.

ktm5124

8:02 AM

That was a 'n' as well. But it was changed to 'in' to ease pronunciation, I take it.

David Wallace

(I was about to say "I like like it too" but your edit was too quick).

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yes, or that is more or less how it has been reconstructed.

ktm5124

That's cool. It seems there's a lot of logic behind inflection.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I often replace two different words with the same word twice, for some odd reason.

David Wallace

I do the same same.

Cerberus

8:03 AM

@ktm5124 Yeah, that's all historical phonoloy.

@DavidWallace We are the the!

Maybe the root of pan was pn and that n, too, was vocalised (no idea).

Greek loves to vocalise.

Even more so than most other Indo-European languages, I think.

David Wallace

There may have been an intermediate step in the vocalisation. It could have been νθανατος, then later ανθανατος then finally αθανατος.

Cerberus

That is certainly possible.

David Wallace

Words like that tend to live forever anyway.

Cerberus

Hah!

ktm5124

@Cerberus Sounds like these vocalizations are mostly euphonic changes? Which the Greeks loved doing?

English speakers are fairly accustomed to a vowel separating two different consonants, barring a consonant followed by a liquid. E.g. pneumatic is exotic sounding in English, with the p followed by the n sound.

David Wallace

8:07 AM

I think many languages show euphonic changes in their development.

ktm5124

And yet I feel that American English, when it evolved out of British English, took a turn towards cacophony...

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Well, you could say all phonological changes are euphonic.

There are just countless rules about what is euphonic, varying by period, region, language, etc.

David Wallace

@ktm5124 How so?

ktm5124

Hm. I see. I remember reading in my textbook that the Greeks strove especially for euphony.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yes, somehow the Greeks did not find that hard to pronounce...

ktm5124

8:14 AM

@DavidWallace Well, the British have more intonation when they speak, whereas Americans keep a middle register. So to foreigners who don't know English, I imagine it just sounds like we're muttering.

But to those same foreigners who don't speak English, it might sound like the British are singing.

David Wallace

As a foreigner who does speak English, my impression is that American speech tends to be too slow to be construed as muttering. But I come from a renowned nation of speedy mumblers.

ktm5124

I really love the Australian accent. Not sure how similar the New Zealand accent is.

I don't know too much about the topic... but when I hear foreigners pronouncing English with accents, it always sounds better than the English I'm accustomed to.

Interesting that you characterize American speech as slow. I probably would have assumed the opposite.

David Wallace

I think part of my problem is that I think of the Texas Drawl as the archetypal American accent, when plainly, it's nothing of the sort.

ktm5124

Yeah, they might as well secede.

David Wallace

And yet, it's the accent that most New Zealanders would imitate if you asked them what Americans sound like.

ktm5124

8:21 AM

There should be a clause in our constitution that, when an accent becomes that egregious, the state responsible gets the boot.

I think the southern accent is lovely, though.

David Wallace

Texas, Louisiana and Florida could go off and form their own republic together.

ktm5124

The joke aside, though, it would be really sad if any state seceded. There's actually a Calexit movement which is deeply troubling...

Being American is all about being ignorant. Ignorant of who really lives in your own country. Ignorant who really lives outside of your country and what their lives are like.

Cerberus

Heh.

ktm5124

I would find it intolerable if it weren't for our cities, like Chicago and New York.

Cerberus

But why would it be so bad if a few states seceded?

David Wallace

8:25 AM

If the three I named did it, the rest of you would have a different president-elect.

ktm5124

Because it would set a precedent for seceding.

Cerberus

Sometimes it's easier to do things your own way, if a common government doesn't work.

I mean, I'm sad that the Brits have decided to leave us, but, on the other hand, now we will finally be able to regulate the financial markets better.

David Wallace

I'm interested to know what the American political landscape will look like in four years' time.

I'm sad for the Brits too. I won't tell you what my partner said.

Cerberus

Perhaps the social effects of the economic crisis will at last have dissipated and populism will have fallen back again.

Hah, what did she say?

ktm5124

There's some buzz about Michelle Obama running in 4 years.

David Wallace

8:28 AM

Which part of "I won't tell you what my partner said" did you not understand, DDDog?

Cerberus

Yet another dynasty!

ktm5124

It would be a good dynasty :)

Cerberus

@DavidWallace All the parts?

@ktm5124 Is this your attempt at returning to colonial rule, instating a monarchy of your own?

David Wallace

I think she was quoting something she'd read on the Internet somewhere, but after the Brexit vote she said "the Brits may think they've won 'world's stupidest nation', but the Americans have a Trump card left to play".

Cerberus

Suppose Texas seceded. You would forever be rid of all the bad stuff that comes from there. The whole country would sway towards more progressive politics.

David Wallace

8:30 AM

And for what it's worth, I think Michelle Obama would be fantastic.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Haha, nice.

See? You did tell us.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Trust me, there won't be any problematic 'tea parties' under an Obama dynasty ;)

Cerberus

Good, good, just kill them all.

ktm5124

Although a Trump dynasty probably would cause a revolution :-/

Cerberus

Revolutions are part of monarchy.

Incidentally, I have just found out that I have black family!

ktm5124

8:32 AM

The British still have a successful monarchy. (Well, at least the form and not the substance.)

Cerberus

Very far removed, but still.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Congratulations.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 They may be less monarchic than you and your dynasties...

David Wallace

I thought one of your heads looked a little darker than the other two.

Cerberus

See?

And one yellower.

ktm5124

8:32 AM

But we haven't had all that many dynasties, have we? I can only think of Teddy Roosevelt and FDR, but they were only relatives.

Cerberus

I have a splash of Indonesia blood from the other side of the family.

@ktm5124 Bush, Clinton?

ktm5124

Oh, Bush for sure.

But not Clinton, seeing how Hillary lost.

David Wallace

Oh, interesting. I seem to be entirely white.

Cerberus

Okay, Clinton may not have been elected yet. But it seems many important 'players' in the game around leading the country are from a small number of rich families.

David Wallace

I've always thought of the Kennedys as a dynasty, but if you're looking at presidents, I suppose they're a dynasty of one.

ktm5124

8:34 AM

@Cerberus Yes, that's definitely true. Our ruling class (so the NYT calls it) comes from a few rich families.

Bush, Clinton, Obama, and now Trump...

And all 4 families are still in play.

Cerberus

And the apex of the ruling class, the serious presidential candidates, are largely from an even smaller set of families.

David Wallace

And if you go back a couple of hundred years, there's always the Adams family.

(Not to be confused with the Addams Family).

Cerberus

Ah.

I don't think anything like that exists in Europe or Oceania?

ktm5124

Yeah, it's difficult what to make of being an American.

Cerberus

It's just funny.

ktm5124

8:36 AM

Aside from the fact that, again, I love our cities :-)

Cerberus

Argentina has a dynasty of sorts.

The populist right in France has a dynasty.

Our hardcore socialists are starting a dynasty.

David Wallace

How is a dynasty different from a monarchy? For what reason would you NOT classify (for example) the House of Tudor as a dynasty?

Cerberus

But any ruling parties?

ktm5124

Hm, so the Dutch PM doesn't come from a rich family that's part of the ruling class?

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I don't know: why wouldn't you?

A dynasty is one family. A monarchy is the institute.

@ktm5124 Not rich at all.

Nor are most politicians rich.

David Wallace

8:38 AM

I feel a Zionist conspiracy theory coming on.

ktm5124

So you're saying that America elects the very wealthy, but it's different in a lot of Europe.

If so, that's interesting...

Cerberus

He is pretty educated, though: most politicians are upper middle class, but only have slightly more than average wealth.

ktm5124

I was in Istanbul at the start of this year and I fell so in love with the city. I felt like my country was so lacking compared to theirs! I mean... they actually have food.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Maybe some countries in Europe also have rich politicians: I'm not sure. But I don't think many have that few families competing for leadership of the country.

So they may be ruled by ruling classes, but not by families.

@ktm5124 Hah! Yes, it is a great city.

Holland doesn't have a real cuisine to speak of either.

ktm5124

I spent a lot of time inside the Hagia Sophia. Really, really loved it.

Cerberus

8:42 AM

But Turkey is really not such a fun place to actually live in!

Yeah, it's great.

ktm5124

And it dawned on me the other day what the words mean in Greek: ἁγία σοφία.

Cerberus

Ah! Very good.

ktm5124

What's interesting is that the Turkish pronounce it Haya Sophia which is the Modern Greek pronunciation, if I'm not mistaken.

Cerberus

Probably.

ktm5124

But I would be inclined to pronounce it like Attic Greek with a hard gamma.

Cerberus

8:43 AM

Yeah.

I don't know when that pronunciation changed.

Maybe during Antiquity, maybe in the Middle Ages, maybe later.

ktm5124

I was talking to a guy whose family is from Greece, and he had a lot of interesting things to say about the history of pronunciation in that country...

Cerberus

Cool.

ktm5124

I wish I remembered better what he said. But I got the sense that it was such an important issue that the government intervened in creating an official pronunciation, fairly recently.

Cerberus

And spelling.

Katarevousa, something like that?

I don't know modern Greek...

Katharevousa

Katharevousa (Greek: Καθαρεύουσα, pronounced [kaθaˈrevusa], literally "purifying [language]"), is a form of the Modern Greek language conceived in the early 19th century as a compromise between Ancient Greek and the Demotic Greek of the time. Originally, it was widely used both for literary and official purposes, though seldom in daily language. In the 20th century, it was increasingly adopted for official and formal purposes, until Demotic Greek became the official language of Greece in 1976 and Andreas Papandreou abolished the polytonic system of writing both Demotic and Katharevousa in 1982...

ktm5124

Oh, interesting.

David Wallace

8:46 AM

Wow, I never realised that the Crusaders had made it Catholic for 57 years.

(The Hagia Sophia, I mean, not the Greek language).

ktm5124

Oh, I didn't know that either. I thought it had always been Eastern Orthodox.

I mean, before the Ottomans came and made it a mosque.

Cerberus

I didn't know that either!

David Wallace

If Wikipedia is to be believed, of course.

Cerberus

I do know they plundered the city around 1202 and probably again soon after.

Very "Christian" they were...

ktm5124

@Cerberus The views I've seen of Amsterdam are really stunning. You are quite lucky to be a Dutchman!

Cerberus

8:49 AM

Oh, gracias.

ktm5124

There's a Dutch chess player that I like, named Anish Giri.

Cerberus

A Turkish friend of mine from Istanbul didn't like Amsterdam; he felt that the buildings were too small and not uniform enough, not enough palaces and modernity.

I think I have read about Anish, wasn't his wife also a great player?

When I visited him, he wanted to show me like a mall or something.

ktm5124

Yeah, Sopiko. She's a great chessplayer, too.

Who could not like this? kimptonhotels.com/boutique-hotels-in-amsterdam

Cerberus

There was a big article about them in my newspaper, a while ago.

ktm5124

That's a beautiful site.

David Wallace

8:51 AM

She's Georgian.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Anish is one of the very best and he competed in the candidates tournament, which selects a challenger for the world championship.

His wife creates really great chess tutorials on chess24.com. I've watched a bunch of them. She's very entertaining.

They have a series called Miss Strategy vs. Miss Tactics.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Nice.

ktm5124

@Cerberus I like that idea of the buildings being small and not uniform. That's what comes to mind when I think of Europe.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 They're both cool and cute.

@ktm5124 To Americans, everything is probably small!

ktm5124

Hehe.

Cerberus

8:54 AM

Buildings, apartments, cars, streets...

ktm5124

It's a welcome change to Americans, or me at least.

Although, I've never been in Europe aside from Istanbul.

Cerberus

Except for people who live on Manhattan, probably, who often live in tiny apartments, right?

Istanbul is a great start.

ktm5124

But they look onto tall skyscrapers every day! And maybe those tiny apartments are in high-rises.

Cerberus

And you can cross off both Europe and Asia on your list.

ktm5124

That's true, it was economical in that sense.

Cerberus

8:55 AM

@ktm5124 That they do.

The tallest buildings within several km of my house are churches.

ktm5124

I was in Goa, India which was fun. I spent most of the time on the beach but it was quite leisurely and enjoyable.

Cerberus

That must be nice.

ktm5124

That's when I started using the SPQR app on my phone, and got into Latin.

Cerberus

Do they have a lot of Portuguese architecture left?

Oh, what is that app about?

Oh, I think it's bedtime, by the way.

ktm5124

Yeah, I visited a Portuguese colonial house. It was really opulent.

Cerberus

8:57 AM

Cool.

should try to get a few more hours of sleep

ktm5124

@Cerberus I'm curious, do you tend to go to sleep at the same time every day? Or is it more random for you?

David Wallace

Hahaha! You must be the only dddog in Hades who refers to 10am as bedtime!

ktm5124

I'm trying to switch to having a regular time, because I feel it must help in falling asleep...

Cerberus

I tend to sleep later than the previous night every day, except that that's usually not possible because of work and social engagements.

David Wallace

Have you tried the 28 hour day?

ktm5124

8:58 AM

@Cerberus Hm, what time do you say you go to sleep, on average?

Cerberus

But the night before I could only sleep for 2 hours, because they were laying (i.e. hammering) in the apartment above mine.

So I went to bed early last night, but I always wake up after a few hours whenever I go to bed early, and I have to stay up for 4 hours until I can fall asleep again.

ktm5124

Hm, you could try foam ear plugs in those situations. But even that might not work, with hammering.

Cerberus

And that's what I have been doing now, and the 4 hours have passed.

@ktm5124 I think it does, if you can stick to it!

@ktm5124 5 AM.

ktm5124

Oh, you average going to sleep at 5am?

Cerberus

My fixed work hours (on the job) are in the afternoon and flexible hours I work in the evening and night from home.

@DavidWallace Let's say I live by your time zone.

David Wallace

9:01 AM

It's been fairly reliable in the past.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yeah, I was thinking about that. But I didn't have them, and it wasn't announced.

David Wallace

Cerberus says it's bedtime, so I go to bed.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yes. That is the latest bedtime possible or I would not be able to sleep long enough.

@DavidWallace Exactly.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Thanks for sharing... that makes me feel better, since I've been quite the night owl myself lately.

David Wallace

But it's 10am, so presumably you could go to church.

Cerberus

9:02 AM

So let's go to bed.

@ktm5124 I think you'll find many people with weird sleep cycles on SE!

ktm5124

Haha.

We could form a support group, then.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Most churches have been turned into secular buildings here!

@ktm5124 Isn't that what SE is?

David Wallace

There must still be one near you.

ktm5124

True, true. But we could spawn a Sleep Anonymous beta.

Try to turn us night owls into early birds...

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Yeah, I'm sure there are still a few left in the inner city.

David Wallace

9:04 AM

Haha, I can just imagine the Area 51 proposal.

ktm5124

I'm a night owl aspiring to be an early bird....

Cerberus

Now I hear noise from my presumed new upstairs neighbour.

@ktm5124 Yay!

David Wallace

Did you get my elephants?

ktm5124

Curse them in Greek and Latin and let 'em have it...

Cerberus

Elephants?

David Wallace

9:04 AM

Remember?

The problems I had, around 4 years ago, with the elephants?

Cerberus

I remember something...but I think I'm not fully awake, remind me?

ktm5124

Turns out I have to go to sleep, too. Nice talking to you guys. Thanks for sharing those insights into historical phonology, by the way.

Cerberus

Sleep well!

ktm5124

Thanks! Both of you sleep well, too.

David Wallace

Dec 24 '12 at 6:26, by David Wallace

A herd of elephants have moved into the flat above me, and are currently trying to make holes in their floor.

Cerberus

9:06 AM

We'll try!

@DavidWallace Ahh, those.

I remember.

David Wallace

Good night!

Cerberus

They may turn out to be the same animals!

They're vacuuming now.

They may move in today.

We'll see.

David Wallace

Elephants seem to be anatomically predisposed to vacuuming.

Cerberus

Haha!

Indeed, indeed.

David Wallace

I hope they don't truncate your sleep too much!

Cerberus

9:09 AM

I will cut off their trunks if they do!

I wish you goodnight, Sir.

I'm not sure whether there should be quotation marks around goodnight (for it isn't a good night).

Bye!

David Wallace

Bye!

user227867

11:18 AM

I might write a meta post proposing ELL and ELU to be merged. It will receive many stones and rotten eggs, but it is alright.

user227867

12:41 PM

@DavidWallace Hello, nice to see you again.

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