English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-09-12 (page 1 of 8)

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Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:11 AM

@IceBoy In fact there is disincentive in the industry to build really great, unstoppable teams; the outcomes of the games are essentially random.

2 hours later…

2:20 AM

Remove spam please:

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A: Where do people pronounce "ank" as /eŋk/ vs. /æŋk/?

You also need to tell the company the type of traffic which you need. If you need best ad network for casinos or adult industries then you need to shell out more amount of money from your pocket as those packages are often costly. Don't be too much specific about the traffic or else you'll end up...

-2

A: Transformation? Cleft?

But how does some one use all of these wonderful options and maximize the ROI of marketing dollars spent on digital advertising and marketing? Well like every other promotional effort the best option is to spread the dollar around and then have a concrete measurable system in place where you can ...

-2

A: The stages of history

You also need to tell the company the type of traffic which you need. If you need best ad network for casinos or adult industries then you need to shell out more amount of money from your pocket as those packages are often costly. Don't be too much specific about the traffic or else you'll end up...

2:47 AM

Hi!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Hello

How art thou?

Not an Apple fan yet?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am waiting to see how ApplePay affects the payment industry. Right now in Canada it is possible to pay with your phone, provided you have the correct magical combination of phone model, sim card, carrier, and bank.

It's pretty fucked.

For example: no Nexus phones are accepted.

And certain banks only work with certain carriers.

Some carriers aren't supported at all.

Right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And it requires a "secure sim", whatever the eff that is.

2:51 AM

I don't think it is possible anywhere here.

But frankly, what's the advantage over using your card?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ApplePay actually does things differently, using a new tech that's more secure in some ways: when you pay you are not transmitting your card number anymore, but instead a token.

Apple, of course, did not invent this. But if that becomes widespread then it reduces one avenue of fraud.

The advantage is not having to carry so many cards, or any cards.

And especially on the iphone, your credit-card will be protected by a fingerprint scan, so it's in some ways more secure than a credit card.

My credit cards all support tap-to-pay. If I lose my wallet, quite a few transactions could be done before the card company can do anything to stop it.

If I could leave my cards at home, they'd be safer.

We don't use credit cards much here. Debit cards is what we use. Supposedly, there will be a maximum that you can pay per day without using your PIN.

But the exact same should apply to your phone, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, the phone's credit-card info is protected. it's not just tap-to-pay like the cards.

Here, I dunno what debit-cards do with tap-to-pay. I haven't paid with a debit card in years. They always required a pin before, and I have no idea what happens now if you lose your debit card.

3:07 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So anyway, I see no advantage at all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The advantage is not having to carry around credit-cards which can be lost and don't have biometric security and whose payment info is captured by the malware-infested vendor.

My phone is easier to access than my credit-card, particularly since it is so often already in my hand.

I have one debit card that I always carry around. It is hardly a burden.

A PIN is secure enough: I don't need biometric security.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's nice. I have 3 credit-cards and two debit cards.

@Cerberus But you don't need to memorize a pin if your fingerprint just unlocks the tap-to-pay feature.

Payment info cannot be captured by the vendor, because everything in the chip is encrypted.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus false. The credit card number is still captured by the vendor.

Also if the pinpad has malware the pin can be captured.

3:09 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No easier than my card, which is in my wallet.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why so many??

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's complicated.

I have one credit card, but I actually use it only to buy things from North America occasionally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mainly use one card. I'd love to be able to load all my other cards onto my phone and never carry them.

And have the phone store the cards in encrypted storage so that they cannot be easily compromised.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Memorizing a PIN? I did so when I was maybe 16, and I have never forgotten it. Fingerprints can be faked. It has been shown how you can quickly and easily take fingerprints from an Iphone and fool the sensor, if you have the phone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway for lots of people their wallet is buried in a purse or something. But everyone's phone is always conveniently at hand. Except my wife, she keeps her phone on mount Vesuvius or something.

3:12 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't use a credit card. My debit card doesn't really have a number.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus look. you've clearly convinced yourself that there can be no benefit to this apple pay thing. I've stated several. No amount of going in circles is going to change your mind, so why are we bothering?

@Cerberus It doesn't? All the debit cards here do.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 People I know either carry their wallet and their phone in their pockets, or in their purse. Not one in the pocket, the other in the purse.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, mine has a number: 023.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The "encryption" on modern credit/debit cards (chip/pin) is meant to prevent cloning of the cards, however it doesn't prevent rogue pinpads from being a threat.

Sure, rogue pinpads or cameras.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So you're telling me that it's just as fast for you to take your phone out of your pocket as it is your debit card?

Cuz for me it isn't. plain and simple.

My card is in my wallet.

My wallet is in my pocket.

That's already 1 extra step.

3:15 AM

Yes? In fact, I prefer taking my wallet out, because it cannot get damaged. I need to be careful with my phone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Never mind that sometimes I cannot find the appropriate card in my wallet, on account of there are many things in there.

I have one card and it's always in the same place...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also never mind that the new Apple Pay thing uses a new tech that's more secure than regular credit cards.

I guess there are no advantages whatsoever.

Must be all in my head.

Magnet strips are insecure, sure. But we don't use those.

You're being a bit childish. You're naming advantages that don't seem to be advantages to me, that's all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus How nice. But your account number and pin are still transmitted into the pinpad when you are paying. But not with the new system.

@Cerberus EVERY TIME we have a discussion of this sort you refuse to admit that what I see as advantages could possibly be advantages.

3:17 AM

It's still easier to steal your fingerprint than your PIN.

I am just challenging you. You shouldn't protest.

If I steal your phone, I can use it to pay for anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I disagree that it's easier to steal your fingerprint. PINs are stolen ALL THE TIME. It's a major problem.

If I steal your PIN, I also need to steal your card.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is only because we don't have devices in use yet that use a fingerprint to pay.

You know it took this guy only a few minutes to clone a fingerprint from the screen of an Iphone and fool its fingerprint scanner with the cloned print?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Okay, forget the fingerprint. The point is that the new tech uses a one-time token to pay. That token is unlocked by a security device on the phone itself. Once used, the token cannot be reused. See how it's more secure? Even if the vendor's terminal is compromised, you are still safe.

compromised vendor terminals are a major problem.

compromised vendor systems that store credit-card data are a major problem.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Isn't that also how the chip in my PIN card works?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. not exactly.

At least, not for credit cards.

3:21 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe that is mainly to do with magnet strips?

Again, we do not use credit cards here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Have you never bought something online? using a card number?

Never from Europe.

Or at least not this decade.

Only from North America.

This year, only from the Play Store, probably.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But you HAVE DONE IT.

Yes. It is ridiculously insecure.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So you understand the risks of a card number being exposed.

3:23 AM

But you're refunded anyway if something should go wrong...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's hardly comforting to whoever gets stuck with the bill in the end.

Either the bank, or the merchant

They end up just raising prices to cover the loss

Look. Very few shops here accept credit cards. Certainly not supermarkets. You cannot use a credit card to buy stuff here normally.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

How quaint.

I remember visiting Austria and needing cash for everything. It was so 30 years ago.

There is no reason to use such a system, so we do no use it. So the insecurity of credit cards does not really concern me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Here, I might go weeks without using any cash.

3:24 AM

I found someone who has cast about 33,000 downvotes.

You might need cash (though very, very rarely here). But so what?

I also found someone who got suspended for 12 years via a M.SE post.

I only ever use cash in cafés.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus in cafes I can tap my card to pay.

Or even better, tap my phone, soon. hopefully.

Or when buying something from a private person, in person, a neighbour.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:25 AM

Because my phone is in my hand already.

In most cafés, I can pay by PIN.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Pins are annoying. I have too many to remember.

But anyway, I see the advantage in not having to use a PIN.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I changed some of them to be the same as some others, but that's less secure.

So just use a card where you don't have to use a PIN for small transactions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:26 AM

I have some cards whose pins I cannot recall; I can only tap to pay for those.

I just don't see the advantage of using a phone.

Hmm, is there a way to find who has cast the highest number of upvotes in all of SE?

You should only have one card anyway.

I'm not sure I could remember the PIN on my credit card.

Will probably require using SEDE...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Here, there are 3 choices. chip/pin, tap, or swipe. And swipe is being phased out. And tap only works on smallish amounts (but I've bought over $100 in groceries with a tap recently)

3:28 AM

1 min ago, by Cerberus

But anyway, I see the advantage in not having to use a PIN.

I did find someone with about 28k upvotes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Less stuff to carry? Less stuff to fumble for? More secure than regular tap-and-pay? More secure than mag swipe? Either way, the vendor data is not reusable, so it's WAY MORE SECURE? How can you deny all these advantages.

@Alraxite english.stackexchange.com/users?tab=Voters&filter=all

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm, OK. That's useful.

It's based on the total votes cast, I see.

And is site specific.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Seriously Cerb, I'd love to be able to put everything in my wallet into my phone, then not carry my wallet.

That alone would make it worthwhile.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A card is so light, so small, I can carry that much. It is sturdier and less expensive than a phone, so I'd rather fumble with that than fumble with my phone when I'm standing at the cash register with only one hand free...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:32 AM

Driver's license? Health card? credit cards? debit cards? points cards for a million stores? library card? various other ID cards? Why do I need all that shit

More secure would be the only advantage—but then I ask, why not make tap to pay equally secure? And are you really sure modern tap-to-pay chips don't work the same way? Mag swipes are no longer in use.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure, some of those things I might want to carry in my phone. But the one card I use every day last of all.

What if your battery is dead?

What if your phone dies, breaks, etc.?

My battery is dead all the time.

A single point of failure.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are SO WRONG about mag swipes not being in use. Especially in the US.

And the fact that you have to use that card so often means you are more likely to damage or drop or forget your phone, if you have to use it every time.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am only talking about my own situation.

Were I situated in a place with older infrastructure, it might be more useful. But then still, I ask, why not simply use a card without a magnet strip, one that can use tap to pay in the same way the phone can?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So you see no advantage to having a credit-card in a phone if you never want to use a credit-card in the first place and are too clumsy to do so without breaking your dead-battery-phone in the second place? Yeah, I guess if you put it that way. Also, there's no advantage in even HAVING a phone if you live in an area with no electricity, or 3G, or GSM, or WiFi

Not sure I understand the latter argument.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:38 AM

My point is that you are failing to apply your imagination to the advantages of feature.

My card always works and I don't need to be careful with it. The same cannot be said about a phone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I could explain to you the advantages of a fuel-injection engine, but you would argue that you'd rather just ride your bike, and why can't people just stick with carburetors.

I am sort of trying. But you're not defending it well enough!

Odd analogies prove nothing.

But it's past my bed time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You are miserably failing to consider that your one-non-credit-card experience in any way describes how a typical north american pays for stuff.

@Cerberus It doesn't matter what I say! You've already decided that since you personally can't benefit from it, then it's completely pointless!

user image

There is a comparison between an iphone 4 and my wallet.

Guess which is more convenient to handle?

I have EIGHTEEN plastic credit-card-sized things in there.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Umm I have said this several times: I am thinking about my own situation, not about a faraway continent!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:42 AM

Please, Saint Steve Jobs, find a way to put them all in the phone.

@Cerberus Then why in the world do you even bring it up? You never even pay by credit card! It is exactly like wondering about car tech when you never drive and don't plan to.

Umm no?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah. all-wheel drive, traction control, anti-lock brakes, etc. All nice features, all 100% irrelevant to you as a bike rider.

It is suggested that this would be useful to us.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sure, so this ApplePay thing is completely irrelevant to you too.

Fine.

But can you not at least see that for some people it is an improvement? People who aren't you?

Well, I am trying to see how it and Google Wallet and similar systems could be useful to us here, and failing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:45 AM

At the very least, it would allow you to put multiple payment sources in one device.

Instead of requiring, as I do, multiple little plastic cards.

Sure, if you have limited choices, excluding a simple debit card with the same kind of secure tap-to-pay chip, then it could be more useful.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"limited choices"?

I still wonder why you would need multiple cards, though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Because each card links to different accounts

Or different banks

Or different accounts at different banks

Why do you need to pay from different accounts in everyday life?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:46 AM

Lots of reasons.

I have different accounts. I don't need cards for them, I only need to pay in shops with a single account.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's super nice for you.

Thanks!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have other accounts whose cards I don't need often and leave at home. But if I DO need them it's a fucking pain in the ass to try to remember them.

I still wonder why you would need those cards ever. But it's sleepy time.

So let's save that for some other time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:49 AM

I have a card that generates reward points that translate into free groceries at one store. That card gives me 3% back on purchases. Better than my usual card which gives 2% back.

That's just one example of needing two cards.

And those are credit cards.

Never mind needing debit cards to access bank accounts directly, for the occasions that demand that. Like, if I need cash, from an ATM.

I have two banks. That's two cards right there.

I'm up to 4 cards and I'm just getting started.

I have other cards from other merchants. Sometimes there are incredible savings for using those cards. Like, 10% off your purchases at one store if you use their card.

It's not like that every day, but when it is, you save big.

I see.

So it is mainly very small discounts?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Plus, I have some credit cards that have added features, like extra insurance on purchases or car rentals.

Of course I have other cards than bank cards.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You mean "mainly free money"

Very little money, 1%.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:52 AM

You have no idea how much that ads up per year for me.

and remember, sometimes it's as high as 10%

I have SIX payment cards in my wallet right now.

plus others that are less-often used.

I would love to put those all into my phone.

So crazy!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, 7 payment cards. Just found a Starbucks gift card. Not sure if it still has cash on it.

Don't you need to pay for each card?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Nope.

I pay $0 in fees.

I never pay for banking fees. That's a fool's game.

Okay, so all this is connected to your weird banks.

I have one free checking account plus card.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:54 AM

No. Some of it is connected to the fact that every large merchant has their own credit card or credit-card affiliate.

No discounts or anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have a card that's a "Hudson's Bay Company" card.

We do not have all that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If I use that card at an HBC store I can sometimes get a discount.

I pay for my one credit card.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:55 AM

So I have to carry that with me, or else I'll forget it and won't have it when I need it.

Some people have WAY MORE cards than me.

I like to simplify though.

I have a ton of discount card, but they're not used for paying for stuff!

I just give them to the cashier as I pay, and she scans them.

No codes, no nothing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But it's not a discount card. It's a regular credit card. In the old days store-brand cards could only be used for credit at those stores, but now they are all just regular credit cards.

They should get rid of all that needless infrastructure.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah, in a society that never uses credit, discount cards is just as good. I have some of those too.

Our discount cards are bad enough!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:57 AM

LOL. They will never get rid of it. It generates too much money.

Credit sucks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Credit's great!

But it's bed time!

I hate it. I want to see what's going on with my balance.

I don't want nasty surprises.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't have nasty surprises because of credit. But I live in my means.

AND I get free money for using the card.

Literally free money.

Because of the crazy system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:59 AM

AND I get perks like enhanced warranties and stuff.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The one that can be dropped from a third-storey window, land on concrete, and remain unmiffed.

I already hate ordinary discount cards.

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