English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:02 AM

Oh.

Too bad.

Mitch

Also the color is a dead giveaway...it's Carlo.

tchrist

Did you really not read my quip?

Cerberus

?

I did not.

> Just think, for just a little bit of money (relatively speaking), you could have one or two paid informants per neighborhood -- their status would have to be kept secret of course. They could keeps tabs on their neighbors and report anything suspicious -- just to make sure law and order are maintained, to be sure, not anything sinister, you know. I think that would really help you guys keep things calm and under control, for the good of society.

arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/…

> The depth of the fears of middle-aged white men continues to astound me. We have a government gripped in its own paranoia. I have no desire to live in a world of constant surveillance due to a presumption of "everyone's probably guilty", but I also cannot fathom living in a world so filled with fear. Although it probably isn't fear. It's probably lobbying money from corporations who will have profits to gain by being able to deploy products/services.

MετάEd

12:25 AM

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds No, just celebrating tonight's show: the Perseid meteor shower.

Cerberus

Ah, can you see it well?

tchrist

It’s still sunny.

Plus it won’t get interesting till like midnight.

I should go to bed now so I can get up then.

@Cerberus When I said ἴασπις erat.

Cerberus

Ohh I thought that was a reference to lapis lazuli.

I should probably go outside to watch the Perseids over the IJ.

They are coming from the good side of the sky, where the big water is.

I hope there are no clouds.

Hmm it looks cloudy.

I see no stars.

tchrist

The Economist has an article this week with Arse longa, vita brevis as a subhead.

Intentionally, of course.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

12:30 AM

They’re being punny.

Cerberus

Cheap.

tchrist

Tweedladeet.

Mitch

@tchrist "the potential size of the problem" if you know what I mean .

tchrist

At work everyone’s desk can levitate.

So you can stand to type.

MετάEd

@tchrist I like it.

Is there a chart somewhere of the english.se vote rate versus time of day?

tchrist

12:40 AM

I doubt it, why?

MετάEd

@tchrist In the blog world, posts get more attention at some times of the day. It would be nice to know if the same is true here. Would an answer get more critical attention if posted at a particular time of day?

tchrist

Yes, certainly.

You aren’t going to get many eyes now.

Although Saturday morning is the deadest.

I was surprised to get a Bronze for this answer posted today, considering how few eyes there are around here on Sundays:

10

A: "sunk" or "sunken"?

You seem to be asking two different questions. Of Copular Complements The first is how an adjective like half-sunken can apply to a verb in your sentence. The answer is that it doesn’t, because lie is here functioning more like a copula. It just serves to link the subject with a predicate descr...

@Cerberus Supposedly you’re partly cloudy tonight.

And worse tomorrow.

MετάEd

Gag me with a dupe:

0

Q: When did informal use of the word "like" become prevalent?

When and why did the word "like" come to be used to introduce an action, or even as a meaningless filler word, e.g. "He was like, [action or quote]."

@tchrist Well, you said copular.

tchrist

@MετάEd Good luck finding it.

Cerberus

1:20 AM

@tchrist Yes, alas.

Hey, what is a good word for a henparty / bridal shower that is understood both in England and in America?

I was typing "bachelorette party" but then it sounded weird.

Hmm it appears "bachelorette party" is North American, and "bridal shower" is slightly different and American, where people give presents to the bride.

Perhaps it will have to be "hen/bachelorette party", then.

tchrist

1:52 AM

@Cerberus Yes.

1

A: When did informal use of the word "like" become prevalent?

In the web article "Valley Nation (OMG. Why does, like, EVERYONE talk this way now?)" at http://chronicfatigue.typepad.com, the author suggests that embolalia, the technical term for the repeated and often unconscious use of filler words such as like, you know what I mean?, totally, soooooooo, ev...

embolalia

Cerberus

@tchrist Alas.

tchrist

Several of them, no doubt.

Cerberus

I had to invite people from England and America in the same e-mail.

tchrist

And you expect them not to know the other’s lingo.

Cerberus

Well, I'm sure they would know it.

But it is suboptimal if I pick one over the other.

tchrist

1:55 AM

Wait, why are you the MC for a girls’ party?

Cerberus

We're modern.

At least in these things.

tchrist

I don’t think guys are allowed at a bachelorette party, unless they’re paid strippers.

Cerberus

Of course we're extremely conservative in certain other things, hehe.

Oh, we are allowed to be there.

tchrist

How much do you get paid?

Cerberus

Zero...

tchrist

1:56 AM

That doesn’t seem fair.

Cerberus

Oh it'll be all right.

I think I'll do a short "date the architecture" tour, then drinks and dinner.

And we'll start with some kind of idiotic "paint your own pottery" session to shock the bride to be.

tchrist

I don’t think the girl who’s getting married will be doing much dating.

Cerberus

I'll make her. It's her last single night!

tchrist

@Cerberus Is that some kind of euphemism?

Cerberus

No.

tchrist

1:58 AM

Oh well.

Cerberus

Perhaps it is different in your country, but many people here do obnoxious activities for bacherlor(ette) parties here.

tchrist

Yes, that’s apparently the whole point.

Cerberus

My friend once had to attend one where they went on a "flirting course". Which was of course very expensive.

@tchrist The whole point?

The point should be to have a fun day/night with your best friends.

tchrist

It’s the last chance for going out and doing wild singleton things.

Cerberus

We are not vulgar.

tchrist

2:00 AM

So you say.

Cerberus

Perhaps there will be drinking, yes, but that's about as wild as it will get.

tchrist

I think it makes a difference if it’s guys in their early 20s versus girls in their mid 30s.

Cerberus

Strippers are the most vulgar abomination.

tchrist

Or maybe not. :)

Cerberus

Not.

tchrist

2:01 AM

I’m teasing about the strippers.

Cerberus

Good.

tchrist

It’s something you hear about.

Cerberus

I was afraid you had been watching too much television.

tchrist

Eh?

Cerberus

You're not supposed to know about strippers!

tchrist

2:02 AM

This is one of our local providers.

Cerberus

Such an elegant name.

You're supposed to say, "oh, do you mean one of those tools to strip the plastic off electric wires?".

tchrist

Wires make me nervous.

Cerberus

Why? How many do you get on a normal day?

tchrist

I don’t like the idea of stripping plastic off electric wires.

Just superstition of getting electrocuted.

Hm, I wonder how bachelor/ette parties work when both spouses are of the same gender. Seems a bit awkward.

Cerberus

You need to strip the plastic off in order to connect them to something.

@tchrist Why?

tchrist

2:09 AM

I mean, you should have two parties, with each soon-to-be-married person doing their own thing with their own friends and gender. Well, traditionally.

Cerberus

Why gender?

That is from a time when people only had friends of the same sex...

tchrist

Well sure.

Pretty much still do, you know.

Cerberus

Not really.

tchrist

If you say so.

You do live in a different country, on a different continent, speaking a different language, and living in a different generation.

If I were to name 10 good friends, probably only 2 of them would be women. It’s just the way it goes.

That doesn’t count family, though.

Cerberus

"Only".

And family, yes.

So that's 20 % female.

So would you exclude them from your stag party?

tchrist

2:16 AM

Surely.

Why?

Because one does.

Very deep reason.

Neither drinks.

Much.

Cerberus

Traditions are important, but they should not be the sole barrier between you and something important and desirable.

Unless they are important for utilitarian reasons also.

> They are completely secure and clean on Silent Phone, Silent Text, and Silent Eyes, but e-mail is broken because govt can force us to turn over what we have. So to protect everyone and to drive them to use the other three peer to peer products–we made the decision to do this before men on [SIC] suits show up. Now—they are completely shut down—nothing they can get from us or try and force from us–we literally have nothing anywhere.

Why would you ever "sic" that instead of fixing it?

tchrist

2:19 AM

Trying to make someone look dumb?

Cerberus

It's people using "sic" who don't know how to use it and probably unintentionally embarrass those they are quoting a little bit.

tchrist

But the all-caps SIC kinda points the finger at oneself.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm sure that is not the intention.

Yes, the capitals are silly, too.

As are the square brackets, I would be inclined to add.

tchrist

Why does sic get put in square brackets not round ones?

Cerberus

Seriously, at first I though "men on [SIC] suits" meant a certain kind of people related to an unknown acronym SIC having to do with (law?)suits.

Then I remembered FBI agents conventionally appear in dark suits, for some weird reason.

(Why?)

@tchrist Yes, that's what I'm saying.

tchrist

2:22 AM

Men in Black (film)

Men in Black is a 1997 science fiction action comedy spy film directed by Barry Sonnenfeld, produced by Walter F. Parkes and Laurie MacDonald and starring Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith. The film was based on Lowell Cunningham's The Men in Black comic book series, originally published by Aircel Comics, with a plot following two agents of a secret organization called Men in Black who supervise extraterrestrial lifeforms who live on Earth and hide their existence from ordinary humans. The film featured the creature effects and makeup of Rick Baker and visual effects by Industrial Light & M...

> Sic is generally placed inside square brackets "[ ]", or in parentheses "( )", and traditionally in italics, as is customary when printing a foreign word.

> The notation's usual purpose is to inform the reader that any errors or apparent errors in the transcribed material do not arise from errors in the course of the transcription, and the errors have been repeated intentionally, i.e., that they are reproduced exactly as set down by the original writer or printer.

> It may also be used as a form of ridicule or as a humorous comment, drawing attention to the original writer's spelling mistakes or emphasizing his or her erroneous logic.

Cerberus

Yes, that is abuse.

@tchrist But why?

tchrist

Why do we portray FBI agents as dressing in black you mean?

A "scifi/action/comedy/spy" film. Miss anything there?

Cerberus

Portray? So they do not actually wear black suits?

> In a conversation with the New York Times, Janke said that his company has even gone so far as to destroy its server. "Gone. Can’t get it back. Nobody can,” he said. “We thought it was better to take flak from customers than be forced to turn it over."

tchrist

I don’t think so.

@Cerberus What’s that about?

> In the letter, the AJR was criticized for its frequent insertion of sic when publishing letters written by French and Japanese authors even though its correspondence acceptance policy reserved the right of copy-editing, which could therefore have been used beneficially to correct minor English language errors made by non English-speakers.

Cerberus

It was about the previous quotation.

Another American provider of encrypted e-mail has shut down.

tchrist

2:29 AM

> Various usage guides, such as The Chicago Manual of Style, recommend "quiet copy-editing" (unless where inappropriate or uncertain) instead of inserting a bracketed sic, such as by substituting in brackets the correct word (if known) in place of the incorrect word.

Cerberus

For fear of governmental action.

tchrist

@Cerberus That’s troubling.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, of course. Any good newspaper does this.

And what is the AJR?

tchrist

> Alternatively, when both the original and the suggested correction are desired to be shown (as they often are in palaeography), one may give the actual form, followed by sic in brackets, followed by the corrected form preceded by recte in brackets.

> An Iraqi battalion has consumed [sic] [recte assumed] control of the former American military base, and our forces are now about 40 minutes outside the city.

I don’t see recte much, if at all.

Cerberus

I sounds a little..archaic.

I would rather expect simply [assumed] with a footnote.

tchrist

2:32 AM

Well, what do you expect for palaeography? :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 > There's really no practical reason why the government couldn't serve Microsoft or Apple with an NSL that forces them to push a spyware package out to certain (or perhaps all) machines. (See, there are many reasons why you might not want to give the Internet the ability to install software on your computers. Automated updates are...strange.)

tchrist

> According to the Journal of Seventeenth-Century Music Style Sheet, there should be no punctuation, for example no colon, before the corrected word when using recte.

> Sometimes only sic and the correction are in the bracket, becoming as in the last example "[sic assumed]" (i.e. recte is omitted).

I think that form I have seen.

Cerberus

I'm sure many systems are and have been used.

tchrist

If you use public/private key crypto, why do you need a particular provider?

That way your mail is always/already encrypted, and it’s not like the provider has the secret decoder ring.

Cerberus

Yes, but, if someone gets his hands on the server, he might in time be able to decrypt it somehow.

tchrist

2:36 AM

With p/p crypto?

That shouldn’t matter.

Glacial time frames and all that.

Cerberus

Being in control of the server (to some extent) could be an extra protection.

tchrist

With p/p crypto, you assume you’re being snooped.

Cerberus

Well, you never know. Vulnerabilities may be discovered. Super-fast new computer technologies may be invented.

tchrist

I guess somebody could set up a bad system.

@Cerberus p =? np

Cerberus

?

tchrist

2:38 AM

P versus NP problem

Diagram of complexity classes provided that P [[≠ NP. The existence of problems within NP but outside both P and NP-complete, under that assumption, was established by Ladner's theorem.]] The P versus NP problem is a major unsolved problem in computer science. Informally, it asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer. It was introduced in 1971 by Stephen Cook in his seminal paper "The complexity of theorem proving procedures" and is considered by many to be the most important open problem in the field. It ...

> The integer factorization problem is the computational problem of determining the prime factorization of a given integer. Phrased as a decision problem, it is the problem of deciding whether the input has a factor less than k. No efficient integer factorization algorithm is known, and this fact forms the basis of several modern cryptographic systems, such as the RSA algorithm.

> Cryptography, for example, relies on certain problems being difficult. A constructive and efficient solution to an NP-complete problem such as 3-SAT would break most existing cryptosystems including public-key cryptography,[16] a foundation for many modern security applications such as secure economic transactions over the Internet, and symmetric ciphers such as AES or 3DES,[17] used for the encryption of communications data.

“Super-fast new computer technologies” aren’t going to crack prime factorization. Even the best (known) quantum algorithm for such runs in polynomial time.

And normal approaches run in

$user image$

Which is substantially worse.

To put it mildly.

Cerberus

That is not what I have read.

First, there is still not proof that no solution can ever be found to the problem.

tchrist

That is true.

Cerberus

Secondly, with enough time (approaching infinite, sometimes), all possibilities can be tried out by a computer.

And some say certain kinds of quantum computers may drastically cut the time needed for such operations.

tchrist

The reason “super-fast” won’t help you is that even if you have a computer that runs oh, six orders of magnitude faster, a million times faster, you simply go from say 10⁵⁴ to 10⁴⁸ years. Do you see why “super-fast” doesn’t really help you here?

Cerberus

If they can shorten it to a certain degree, 2048-bits encryption may some day be decrypted.

@tchrist No. What if it's 10⁵⁴ times as fast?

tchrist

2:47 AM

Good luck with that one.

Cerberus

It is not impossible in theory.

tchrist

I stand by my luck wishing.

It is estimated that cracking a 2048-bit key requires 6.4 quadrillion years of computing using standard desktop computing power.

Go ahead, throw a million-times-faster at that.

Mitch

throws million times faster

tchrist

Just between you and me, that still seems a tad tardy.

Mitch

makes plopping sound

when it hits the floor

tchrist

2:52 AM

Figures from here.

Mitch

@Cerberus that's a clever thing to say.

Cerberus

Thanks.

People who know a lot more about it than I do say this.

Mitch

@tchrist Those pictures are hilariously irrelevant.

tchrist

Yeah.

Cerberus

They also say it is not impossible that some kind of weird new quantum computer might be so much faster that our scale of "unencryptable in practice" might need adjustment.

tchrist

2:54 AM

Quantum is different.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah, it's a couple of steps of 'wow, how did you think of that?' beyond just the statement of the problem.

Cerberus

@Mitch How do you mean?

tchrist

RSA key sizes: 2k or 4k bits?

Mitch

@Cerberus The fun thing about all of it is that there are only definitions of new things, very few proofs that new definitions are 'different' (there are some, but not for things that people find practical)

Cerberus

If you can mathematically prove that a certain kind of algorithm thingy cannot be solved, that brings us some peace of mind. But they say such a thing has not been successfully done for the way we now encrypt stuff. Of course that doesn't mean at all that there exists a solution; it just introduced theoretical uncertainty.

@Mitch Proof that a new definition is 'different'...

Not sure what that means.

Mitch

2:58 AM

@Cerberus step 0: definitions, step 1 - there's no proof (yet?) either way that P!=NP, 2 - and this implies but still s unknown if the question itself is provable in elementary proof systems.

there you go. two steps to get to what you said.

tchrist

Bruce Schneier: Can the NSA break AES?

That man gets an award for annoying-to-spell last name.

Cerberus

I'm sorry, I don't understand your formula, and I don't understand "and this implies but still s unknown".

Mitch

@Cerberus does 5+7 = 12? (yes, you can prove it by doing some decimal math)

Cerberus

Yes.

Mitch

so 5+7 is the same as 12. you can show that 5+8 is different from 12 in a similar manner.

tchrist

2:59 AM

> The biggest breakthrough would be if NSA could build a quantum computer that could implement Shor's algorithm using the Quantum Fourier Transform (QFT). This breaks RSA and Diffie-Hellman

Yes, because it runs in polynomial time.

Mitch

P is defined one way, NP slightly differently, but they could still be the same.

user87637

Problem? No problem! P=NP. QED. LOL.

Mitch

@Cerberus "but still is unknown"

did that help?

sorry "this implies but it is still unknown if the question itself is provable in elementary proof systems."

now provability is usually harder than just coming up with a proof.

DarkHorse

hello, you guys

Cerberus

Ehh...

Are you saying the same thing I said about how it was not (yet) proven? Otherwise, I don't understand at all...

Mitch

3:03 AM

Hi. Also, Al Jabr is here. Now that it's past Ramadan.

Cerberus

@DarkHorse Hello!

Mitch

@Cerberus Sort of.

Cerberus

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds QED! So you have acquired LOL, huh?

@Mitch OK.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

@DarkHorse Hai

DarkHorse

Did i have enter the room in stackoverchange?

Mahnax

3:04 AM

Good evening.

user87637

@Mahnax Hey Mah!

O0oO0oOO0ooO

what? Stackoverchange?

Mahnax

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds Jasper!

Cerberus

@DarkHorse This is the room about the "English language and usage".

Mahnax

You have returned to us!

tchrist

3:05 AM

@Cerberus Hard to tell from the recent scroll log.

user87637

@Mahnax Yes, I could not resist creating yet another account!

DarkHorse

sorry for typo, it's stackexchange

Cerberus

Scroll log?

Mahnax

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds I see! Happy to hear that you're back.

tchrist

Scroll back?

Are you a sojjerboy now?

O0oO0oOO0ooO

3:06 AM

Guys, what do you do in a day if you don't have a job?

DarkHorse

what's the usage for this room?

For english study?

Mahnax

@DarkHorse Chatting, primarily.

user87637

@tchrist No, if you mean soldier by that.

Mahnax

Sometimes people ask English questions, sometimes philosophy or technology is discussed, etc.

The possibilities are endless, but above all, this is just a chat.

DarkHorse

I come from a country not speaking english

Mahnax

3:07 AM

It's not even in English all the time.

tchrist

@Cerberus The log for the room. My God, it’s full of stars!

O0oO0oOO0ooO

@DarkHorse Which country is that?

DarkHorse

China

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Oh China, centre of the entire world.

tchrist

The center of the world is a very hot place.

Mahnax

3:09 AM

Also, I just made a pizza.

DarkHorse

uh, huge joking

tchrist

Everywhere is the center of its world, and it’s not just the Mediterranean Sea: have you seen those funny Australian maps?

user87637

Hey @cornbreadninja麵包忍者 happy belated birthday!!!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds thank you!

O0oO0oOO0ooO

@DarkHorse May I ask your TOEIC / TOEFL score?

Mahnax

3:10 AM

Jasper, your birthday is coming up too, IIRC.

user87637

@Mahnax Yes, yours is 2 months after mine, LOL.

DarkHorse

can you recommand me a web site for linux study?

tchrist

I’m truly impressed with the number and quality of comments that Schneier’s brief posting incurred.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

I know one

user87637

@DarkHorse What do you wanna learn?

Mahnax

3:10 AM

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds Good, I remembered correctly.

user87637

@Mahnax We belong to Team 23!

DarkHorse

@O0oO0oOO0ooO I never have a TOEFL test in my university

Mahnax

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds cheers quietly

user87637

@Mahnax I am still trying to figure out why 23 is shown more than other numbers on watch ads...

DarkHorse

some knowledge about basic program or os of linux?

Mahnax

3:12 AM

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds Is it? I don't see many watch ads.

DarkHorse

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds

tchrist

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds You really don’t know?

user87637

@tchrist Nope, I remember I googled for the answer long ago but found none.

tchrist

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds hours per day, zero based.

user87637

@tchrist That's such a weird reason!

O0oO0oOO0ooO

3:15 AM

@DarkHorse You should use software called Linuxgym

My university developed it and I enjoyed it so much

DarkHorse

I have notice the introduce of this room is follow by some words of mandrian, are there some Chinese friends?

I install Ubuntu in virtual machine instead, @O0oO0oOO0ooO

Celebrating (庚寅年)

user87637

@DarkHorse I have Debian on my desktop and laptop!

Robusto

Episode One, Season Six of Breaking Bad. Wow. Just wow.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

I don't think there are any Chinese people in this chatroom as far as I know.

DarkHorse

you have Debian in Android times?

@al

Robusto

3:21 AM

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds Jasper, are you back? Really?

user87637

@DarkHorse I don't know anything about Android.

user87637

@Robusto Yes, it is I. Beware of imposters though.

DarkHorse

I have also found there is rarely to meet a Chinese in neither SO nor SE

user87637

They can all start using a blue square for starters.

Robusto

►

O0oO0oOO0ooO

3:23 AM

@DarkHorse I think you can occasionally observe Chinese / Russian / Japanese incorporated in people's nick name on this website because some Chinese characters looks cool and have some cool meaning so people like to use them

user87637

I had great difficulty learning Chinese.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

In real world, many people like to get tattoo of cool Chinese characters because no one can understand them but looks cool

Robusto

@AlgebraAnalysisManifolds It wasn't the blue square that gave you away.

user87637

I have forgotten most of the characters I learnt.

user87637

@Robusto Yes, I know. Many things can give it away, and can be copied.

tchrist

3:24 AM

Pray help me find the dup:

2

Q: About "All I need to do/have to do/must do is do something."

I remember I learned a structure like the one that this post’s title mentions: All I {need to do | have to do | must do} is do something. But is it correct to use "to do something" after the "is" — as compared with just plain "do something" without the "to"? Or to be more specific, which...