English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2013-06-06 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't like to bring up this subject again, but might this line of yours not be construed as containing a rape joke?

5 hours ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox telling someone to back off a bit is fine. My wife told me a couple of times that things were moving too fast for her back when we were dating. I listened to her and did my best not to make her feel uncomfortable, i.e. sexually assaulted. Seems like a decent thing to do, right? But if I got her drunk first, then it would've been okay? rolls eyes

> But if I got her drunk first, then it would've been okay?

It's non-serious. It's about what you call rape. A rape joke?

@simchona Exactly, that's what Prudie says, and she's right.

One of the few things on which I sometimes disagree with her is that she often assumes that getting drunk means you drive while drunk as well.

Which I really think is often not the case.

(I'm not looking forward to this wedding where I have to keep an eye on two alcoholics btw, the father and uncle of the bride...)

@Cerberus Why you gotta do that?

It seemed funny and I've had a few drinks.

But I'm not drunk!

Sure, sure. Laughing and touching.

In fact, I am looking at several hours of copy-editing work.

Okay, maybe some laughing, but the touching was only slightly inappropriate.

Tequila: turns a bad idea into a well-thought-out plan.

12:13 AM

Hehe.

Well, the original document (a legal dissertation) is already bad enough.

I couldn't possibly make it worse.

Now I'm off to drink and eat cheese curls. Have fun, slacker!

Have fun, drunk-girl-to-be!

12:58 AM

Oh noes! Kein Rindfleischetikettierungsueberwachungsaufgabenuebertragungsgesetz!

-e

@tchrist "Tapeworm words". Eeew.

It’s shorter with umlauts.

@tchrist Yes.

People I know who are drunk tend to repeat themselves. People I know who are drunk tend to repeat themselves.

Whycan’theGermansjustusespaceslikeeverybodyelsedoes?

Is that restrictive clause or a descriptive one?

1:31 AM

@tchrist They really use that as an actual word?

You know what the rule in Dutch is?

You absolutely have to spell nounadjectives attached, but you can and should add hyphens if they become hard to read, or change the construction.

1 hour later…

2:37 AM

@MattЭллен Haha, that's my life! (The dog.)

The cat one is also funny:

3:11 AM

The dog one seems more dependent on gross jokes. The cat one is better. But they're both funny.

Although "maybe he is the ball" was pretty damned good.

1

Q: Is there a word to describe the state of believing you know something that is false?

When you do not know a fact you are ignorant. My question is what would you call the state of believing you know something that is false. For instance suppose I see a black box and having opened it earlier, I know there is a rabbit in it. Some time later unbeknownst to me someone removes ...

single-word-requests

Texas.

Or maybe Kentucky. Wherever the enlightened realize varmints make good eatin'.

Because someone practical is obviously responsible for taking the rabbit out of the box.

-1

Q: (non-native speaker) What's the best way to open a formal letter?

I'm writing a referral letter to somebody I don't know, and would like to have a polite opening that expresses my apology for disturbing him, like "Please forgive me for writing to you presumingly" (not sure what I'm talking about). Non-native speaker, so hopefully someone can help me with some ...

Wearing one's kid gloves.

4 hours later…

7:31 AM

@KitFox You think you can patch the geek in me?

1 hour later…

8:59 AM

@MετάEd with a paper knife.

But, Is the usage to parentheses correct? If true. Please try to explain.

3 hours later…

Matt Эллен

12:08 PM

Thanks @Mitch for deleting that "Opposite prefix to 'de'" answer, I've now got 14,400 reps exactly

@Cerberus Hahaha, yeah, that's good.

Hi.

Matt Эллен

Hi!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not a rape joke. A sarcastic comment in the context of a discussion about rape. The sarcasm is indicated by the "rolls eyes" bit at the end. It is meant to be clear that I do not think "then it would be okay".

If it's clear that that's not your real opinion, it's not a joke?

Matt Эллен

"A rape joke" and "a joke that has rape in it" are not neccessarily the same?

damnit no. I am not getting involved in this convoluted mess

12:15 PM

Who knows? Mr Shiny needs to polish his definitions.

They're not shiny enough.

Matt Эллен

I shall instead boast of my latest (to be delived) purchase

boasts

Dull definitions are boring. We need sexy stuff!

Oh!

@MattЭллен ?? I've lost my memory.

Go on!

Matt Эллен

I've paid for a Dell XPS 13 developer edition

@Mitch english.stackexchange.com/questions/46093/opposite-prefix-to-de/…

12:17 PM

Congrats! That's a screen, right?

XPS sounds good.

I don't know what the 13 is.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus no, it's a laptop. it's got ubuntu on it, which is nice. it means I don't have to clear the thing of windows 8

XPS 13 is the size of the screen, I think

@MattЭллен Ah ok. Then you're welcome?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch good, good.

There are worse that could be deleted, but it was a button to press, so I did.

@MattЭллен sounds like it was made by a cat person

12:18 PM

any other buttons to press?

Matt Эллен

I like the round number. I was waiting for one of my downvotes to be cleared away

@JohanLarsson if you've not seen Ze Frank before you should check out other things of his. he is quite funny.

some people find him motivational too

Oh you can manipulate your rep by...hm...downvoting is -1...isn't there a +2 thing...editing maybe?

Matt Эллен

yeah. getting an edit approved is +2, but I can only get that for tag wiki edits

which you just did!

Matt Эллен

oh. yeah

I hope people don't object to my edit

12:22 PM

@MattЭллен Ohh I see.

I read that as 'oh yeah'

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus more info

you know like Barry White with a deep voice.

Is XPS related to IPS?

Matt Эллен

I do sound exactly like Barry White, if he didn't sound like Barry White and was still alive

12:23 PM

Oh. I don't sound like that.

Either one.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I don't know. What is IPS?

@MattЭллен Wowie, is that 4x3.1 GHz?

@MattЭллен A screen technology.

By the way, I think it's funny how they even display the spec-less tab for a developer laptop.

So who would go on the Mars landing mission (which means never coming back to Earth)?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus ah. could be

But more people would show up there, so it's not all bad.

12:24 PM

Who wants a spec-less tab, like this one, which is called "overview"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Using sarcasm is not the same as joking. When you use sarcasm you use words that mean the opposite of what you are trying to say on purpose, with the intended meaning coming through in subtext or intonation or whatever. Tell me I don't have to explain what sarcasm is.

@Mitch I'm sorry, I have a previous engagement in 2083.

What if you get say a polyp that needs to be removed? Will they send you one of those do it yourself kits like they do for Antarctica?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch depends on my circumstances. probably not, though

@Cerberus Wow, that is planning ahead.

12:25 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then what is your definition of a rape joke? When you say, "...mean the opposite of what you are trying to say on purpose, with the intended meaning coming through in subtext or intonation or whatever" — is this not the case with jokes too?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch or behind, because apparently it's previous

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. Don't you know the difference between a joke and sarcasm?

@Mitch Well, you know, I have a funeral to attend around that time.

No butt jokes in chat.

Matt Эллен

what about butte jokes?

12:26 PM

@Cerberus The last funeral I attend will be well before then.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you can, define what you're saying, because I don't know what you mean any more. If you can't be more precise, is that not a sign of weakness?

@MattЭллен but and butte...OK. Butt...not OK.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because I think this may be a misunderstanding: we understand different things by "rape joke".

It's not obvious but that's the rule.

@Cerberus can't we tackle racism already?

Matt Эллен

Butt me no buttes

Racism is the habitual bias against running sports

3

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:28 PM

@Cerberus a rape joke is meant to be funny. Using sarcasm to state that rape is not okay is not meant to be funny.

I think it's funny how Brits say 'fag' for a cigarette butt, but it's funny to Brits how Americans say fanny for butt.

Now if I can only work some poop in there.

Matt Эллен

Well fanny in BrEng is slang for vagina

@Mitch Yay!

Ha ha...see? That's not funny in AmE. Which means it is meta-funny.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I have a cousin's cousin named Fanny (French name)

12:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Your sarcasm seemed intended to bring in a bit of light-heartedness, mild "fun".

Matt Эллен

so it's like saying "twat". What you call "fanny packs", we call "bum bags". "twat packs" is tempting though

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no, it's intended to show scorn on your position.

Not fun at all.

But in a funny way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's intended to show contempt.

That's what jokes can be used for.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:31 PM

That's not what I did though. I was not trying to make anyone laugh at rape.

I was not joking.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Wow. That's funny. -in french-?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There was no joke intended.

So it only counts as a rape joke if the main purpose of the joke is to make people actually laugh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I understand that the intonation in my head as I write these words doesn't come out on your end when you read it.

A little joke doesn't count?

12:32 PM

Can't we all agree that it's in bad taste even if you laugh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It was not a joke. I categorically deny that it was a joke or that anyone should interpret it as any kind of joke.

@Mitch It can be in bad taste, certainly.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're not using Unicode? That gives all the intonations.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Fine.

@Cerberus actually worst taste.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:32 PM

@Mitch my keyboard is ascii and I am not tchrist.

So something only counts as a rape joke if the main purpose of the joke is to make people actually laugh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If any part of the joke is to make fun of rape or make light of it.

What year are you living in? That's so 2013. Get with the technology...it's 2019 and our computers transcribe for us directly from speech.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch okay let me turn that on

the button is in the back.

Of your head.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:34 PM

testing won too tree

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If any part makes light of it...if I had to pick yes or no, I'd say part of your line did that.

If one knows you and reads your line in context, one knows that you think rape is very bad and serious. But that's different.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does this count as a rape joke?

in The Frying Pan, 2 mins ago, by SAJ14SAJ

Well, one could argue that they are asians, since the island was populated by a bunch of pixies and related tribes. Or French, since they were raped by the Normans. or even germans. So that little strip of water doesn't make a lot of difference :-)

We were talking about whether or not England was European.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't know if it counts. maybe.

Maybe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are misreading my sarcasm. Imagine me reading it aloud with as much scorn and contempt for the idea expressed by the face value of the words.

That's not the point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:39 PM

@Cerberus That is the point. It doesn't make light of rape.

I know you are sarcastic. I know perfectly well how you intended it, and it's perfectly normal and fine.

Doesn't any kind of non-seriousness make light of it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I was totally serious.

No, that was not a serious question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes it was. I was restating your position, actually.

Still not a serious question.

Matt Эллен

12:41 PM

So, yeah. It's an ubuntu laptop. I'm on my way to giving up Windows as an OS. If only all the game I play were on Linux

You would never seriously ask that question, and the answer suggested by the form (confirmation: "yes, it would be OK") is the opposite of your own position.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13 hours ago, by Cerberus

> But if I got her drunk first, then it would've been okay?

This is the line?

That's not a serious question.

Yes.

It's a rhetorical device.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The entire point of that line was that I was restating the previous argument we'd been having with you, where you seemed to be saying exactly that.

I know that was your intention (although of course that was not position).

It's not a full-fledged joke.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:43 PM

So I was not actually asking that question. It was not a joke. It was said to mock that position, not to make fun of rape.

But it's still not a serious question either.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's not a joke of any kind.

Yes, mocking is the right word.

Mocking ≠ serious.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

mocking YOU, not mocking rape

no, I was serious.

Still mocking.

Mocking is by definition not a serious question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:44 PM

No, I was seriously mocking your position.

anyway the point is that it wasn't a joke that makes light of rape or makes humour of rape. It wasn't a joke. It wasn't about rape, it was about that position on rape.

Anyway it's clear that you refuse to acknowledge that you might be wrong about the seriousness of date rape. So there's little point in discussing this further.

I have a different suggestion.

why not just /rape discussion?

feels like it has been going on forever

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Isn't what you really mean that people shouldn't actually promote rape, in whichever way?

As long as the audience knows you do not condone it, then it should be fine, right?

@JohanLarsson I suppose you're right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus promote, condone, tolerate, ignore

@Cerberus Theoretically, yes, however it's clear to me that too many people in the audience will misunderstand your joking as acceptance.

And I know you don't believe that, but you're wrong.

I'm not saying I don't believe that.

12:50 PM

This is on the subject of rape jokes, at the moment?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When society no longer has a rape culture then it will be acceptable to joke about rape.

My position is that it depends on the audience, as with all jokes about taboo subjects.

@Cerberus But you have no way of knowing if someone in your audience has been raped, and if your joke will be triggering for them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You almost can't know your audience well enough, considering the prevalence of this problem.

If my audience consists solely of you, then I think I can make any joke I like, because you already know my position.

@Mahnax I suppose that is true: but people's sensibilities are a different issue, different from actually promoting it. It applies equally to, say, a disease.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:51 PM

@Cerberus If you keep making jokes that contradict your position, how am I supposed to know if your position hasn't changed? or that your official position might differ from your actual position?

@Cerberus Not really equally. diseases are not crimes perpetrated by attackers.

@Cerberus No, I wouldn't say that it does.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What if my audience is my two sisters? And we have had endless discussions about rape before, and we all agree in every respect?

Rape is a crime committed against you that violates you in the deepest way possible.

By an attacker.

It is frequently traumatizing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why would jokes change your perception of my position?

Do not joke about something that is emotionally and physically traumatizing (and is still a very serious issue all around the world, no less).

12:53 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Read again. That's exactly what I'm saying.

@Cerberus Sorry, it's not very clear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because on one hand you say "rape is not okay", then on the other hand you go around saying "rape's not that bad, ha ha ha" in your jokes. you are sending mixed messages. You are counting on your audience to discern your real position. And the fact that you joke about it at all suggests that you don't take it seriously at some level, which directly contradicts your position about it.

@Mahnax I mean, making jokes about cancer and rape are both in bad taste, mainly because someone might be a victim of either, or have a good friend who has been. But rape is different in that it is, at least in theory, something that can be condoned or promoted, so that would be an extra reason to be careful about rape jokes.

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson indeed

@Cerberus Yes. So why bother making them at all, even if you do know your audience? There are much funnier things out there to say.

12:56 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And what do you base this theory on? Because it goes squarely against everything I believe in and against all my life's experience.

@Mahnax Well, I never make rape jokes. I just think they are nearly always in bad taste.

Just like cancer jokes.

@Cerberus OK. That is good.

Simple solution: never joke at all. Have no fun. Work until you die.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What theory? The theory that people listen to what you say, even when you're joking?

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax so I am doing it right?

But I absolutely do not believe that they would promote rape provided that your audience knows that you are against rape (which I think is any normal audience in my circles, at least).

Matt Эллен

that's a relief

12:58 PM

@Mahnax Yeah, that's kind of the problem.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

@MattЭллен I hope not. Live a little, dude :-)

@MattЭллен Especially in this line, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Uh, isn't it pretty obvious?

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax but the risks associated with living are astronomical! Statisically I have a 100% chance of dying if I live.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is as obvious as saying that a mentally healthy person will go shoot people if he watches a violent movie.

12:59 PM

@MattЭллен You also have a 100% chance of being dead if you do not live.

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