English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

They apparently had no idea how to grow food.

Or any idea that November wasn’t the time for it.

WTF?

humanities360.com/index.php/colonial-early-american-9-33089

They brought wheat but it wasn’t the winter wheat they needed.

Oops again.

And they didn’t know how to build homes that could withstand a New England winter.

@Cerberus Napoleon cake with Hitler on top? A delicacy in Russia during the winter.

> Because of earlier complications in leaving the Netherlands and then again at Southampton, England, many had not left the Mayflower for 6 months.

That explains the scurvy. Kinda.

I still think it is weird that the people we think of as having founded English America were Dutch.

12:11 AM

@tchrist How did all the scads of colonists who came directly afterwards do it? The ones populating the rest of the seaboard.

They didn’t even get fucking started until Christmas. That is beyond insane. That is suicidal.

@tchrist They weren't Dutch at all. They left England as a group, were in the Netherlands for a couple years, then left again.

List of Mayflower passengers who died in the winter of 1620–21

People landing in Virginia would have had a less terrible first winter.

During the first winter in the New World, the Mayflower colonists suffered greatly from diseases like scurvy, lack of shelter, and general conditions on board ship. Forty-five of the 102 immigrants died the first winter and were buried on Cole's Hill. These persons * who died in the winter of 1620-1621 were most likely originally buried in unmarked graves in the Coles Hill Burial Ground, Plymouth, Massachusetts. In 1921 some of the remains of persons originally buried on that hill were collected into the sarcophagus that is the Pilgrim Memorial Tomb on Cole's Hill in Plymouth. Many of th...

They didn't have the religion problems. Just supplies and malaria.

It just seems . . . mad.

So they were not ready for a vicious winter. They didn’t know how to build homes that could withstand it. They didn’t bring enough supplies to get through a winter without food, and they didn’t bring the right kind of grain for the climate. They were weak from living shipboard for six months already.

And it was a mild winter, actually. Just vicious compared with the balmy banana-strewn shores of Devonshire.

They learned to plant maize. They had to.

But I don’t understand how the shellfish didn’t save them.

12:20 AM

@Mitch Created?

> Not long after the house burned, the "General Sickness" swept through the group, devastating colonists and crew alike. No one knows what this illness was, though it may have been pneumonia. Regardless, it was devastating. Seven of the company of near 150 remained well enough to tend to the rest, fetching wood for fires, making food, bathing and dressing the sick.

millsgen.com/gen/hist/pilstor4.htm

@tchrist But I thought they were English?

@Cerberus I get confused by going back and forth between England and Holland.

@tchrist Mad = religious fanatics.

> Squanto was the sole survivor of the Patuxet people, having been abducted by Hunt in 1614 to be sold into slavery in Spain. He had jumped ship and gone to England where he found employment on a trip to Newfoundland and other parts, before returning home in 1618, only to find all his people dead. Without Squanto's help and guidance, the Plymouth Colony would not have survived.

12:22 AM

@tchrist Why? Do shellfish contain vitamin C?

@Cerberus No, mad because of not having adequate supplies/preparation. I think they meant to land in Virginia, not Massachusetts.

@tchrist So did they.

No, from starvation.

@tchrist Oops, I meant =.

Oh, did they also die from starvation? They hadn't brought enough food to last a few months?

Oysters are very high in vitamin C.

Cape Cod had giant oysters everywhere.

12:25 AM

Religious people are generally not the smartest people, 's all I'm saying. Our Bible-Belters don't vaccinate, for example.

Perhaps they had no idea how to catch oysters?

Er, catch? They’re sessile.

Or "catch", harvest, rather.

Jinx.

I actually think we say "oesters vangen" in Dutch, not sure.

Oysters have as much vitamin C as tangerines and grapefruit, at least by weight.

I see.

You'd have to eat a lot of oysters to match the weight of a grapefruit, but OK, that should have been enough.

There would have been plenty of easily harvested clams, too.

And um, well, there’s a reason it’s called Cape Cod, you know.

Apparently the Amerindian autochthons were well-acquainted with the harvesting of shellfish there.

It’s really just sad.

But I guess they were in a sense refugees, and refugees do desperate things with little preparation.

You know, if it weren’t for Europeans coming to America, you’d still be eating goose at Christmas instead of turkey.

> The confusion ... is also reflected in the scientific name for the turkey genus: meleagris (μελεαγρίς) is Greek for guineafowl. Two major reasons why the name 'turkey fowl' stuck to Meleagris rather than to the Helmeted Guineafowl (Numida meleagris) were the genuine belief that the newly discovered America was in fact a part of Asia, and the tendency during that time to attribute exotic animals and foods to places that symbolized far-off, exotic lands.

sighs

I regularly see herds of turkeys where I live. They are great birds.

> The government of England arrested and persecuted the Separatists for their refusal to belong to the Church of England. By the fall of 1607 the persecution had become so intolerable that one Separatist group at Scrooby, a small village in England, decided to go to Holland. By August 1608 over one hundred men, women, and children had reached Amsterdam even though the king was opposed to all migrations and had ordered all ports closed for those without a royal license.

12:42 AM

Ben Franklin thought the turkey should be the national bird. Not the bald eagle.

Hehe, "Scrooby".

jpatton.bellevue.edu/biblical_economics/pilgrimstory.html

@Robusto Yep, I know. And he was right.

You saw my solution to the ellipsis problem in IE9, I take it?

No, I did not.

What was it, really?

3 hours ago, by Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I found the answer. In IE9 (and IE9 ONLY, not IE8 or IE10) the ellipsis dots are made from the first font it finds in the container. In this case, I was using FontAwesome icons, which doesn't have characters under '\f000'. Which is all kinds of stupid, since the governing font for the truncated string is Arial.

Ijichry then.

12:47 AM

Ijichry?

Idiotry.

Ah. Well, Microsoft. Same thing.

They just cannot figure out how to do font stuff right no matter what.

@tchrist Except that we don't eat turkey.

Well, some people do.

When you say '\f000', do you mean code point 0xF000?

12:49 AM

But it's not a major thing or anything.

Someone dropped them on their fontanelles when they were babies.

Or something else?

@Cerberus Really?

@tchrist Yeah. That's how you render it for CSS content.

> The tradition of turkey at Christmas rapidly spread throughout England in the 17th century, and it also became common to serve goose which remained the ...

@tchrist I'm actually not sure of the status of turkey at Christmas. We certainly never ate it at home.

12:49 AM

I guess it is an English thing.

Christmas dinner

Christmas dinner is the primary meal traditionally eaten on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. Christmas dinner around the world may differ and the traditions present below can reflect the culture of the respective country it is being celebrated in. Turkey is present in a fair number of these meals. Asia India In India people cook a variety of foods, including Biryani with chicken or lamb/mutton, chicken and mutton curry, followed by cake orsweets like Kheer. Some cook turkey biryani as well, but it is less common in villages. Lebanon The Lebanese, mostly Christians but also Muslims, celebr...

Some Dutch people eat turkey on Christmas eve.

.foo:after {
  content: '\f000';
}

Gives you the first glyph in the FontAwesome icon list.

I'm just not sore how widespread it is. It may be ehm bourgeois.

I thought them Brits had goose on Christmas.

> The dinner usually consists of roast turkey (although other poultry such as goose, chicken, duck, capon or pheasant are alternatives), sometimes with roast beef or ham or, to a lesser extent, pork.

> Served with stuffing, gravy and sometimes forcemeat; pigs in blankets; cranberry sauce or redcurrant jelly; bread sauce; roast potatoes (sometimes also boiled or mashed); vegetables (usually boiled or steamed), particularly brussels sprouts, parsnips and carrots; with dessert of Christmas pudding (or plum pudding), sometimes mince pies or trifle, with brandy butter and/or cream.

12:51 AM

I'm sure I read that in Dickens. And Conan-Doyle.

And in recent years there will be people who eat it to emulate American pop culture. So I really don't know, actually.

> A famous Christmas dinner scene appears in Dickens' A Christmas Carol (1843), where Scrooge sends Bob Cratchitt a large turkey.[8] The pudding course of a British Christmas Dinner may often be Christmas pudding, which dates from medieval England.[9] Trifle, mince pies, Christmas Cake or a Yule Log are also popular.[10]

@Robusto Perhaps both birds are traditional?

Oh, we do eat Christmas pudding!

> Most Christmas customs in the United States have been adopted from those in the United Kingdom.[11] Accordingly, the mainstays of the British table are also found in the United States: roast turkey (or other poultry), beef, ham, or pork; stuffing (or 'dressing'), squash, roasted root vegetables, brussels sprouts, and mashed potatoes are common.

But turducken is strictly an American dish.

12:52 AM

But that may be a U thing, not sure how popular it is.

> Common desserts include pumpkin pie, plum pudding or Christmas pudding, trifle, marzipan, pfeffernusse, sugar cookies, fruitcake, apple pie, Gooseberry Pie, carrot cake, bûche de Noël, and mince pies. In the South, coconut cake, pecan pie, and sweet potato pie are also common.

Don't forget spotted dick.

@tchrist Many of those things don't seem particularly English...

@Cerberus 'created' meaning 'went to extremes in reaction to a difference'

Some kind of fowl or game is certainly traditional here. Like hare or deer.

@Mitch Right, it is possible, who knows?

12:57 AM

@tchrist I thought you burn a Yule Log.

@Cerberus I'm trying to make up science here out of nothing, and you give me 'meh'?

I gave you a "right", not a "meh".

1:13 AM

It’s oyster stew and chili con carne on Christmas Eve, then turkey and ham on Christmas Day.

Not that I eat any of that, but you get the idea.

KitFox

It's pizza on Christmas Eve and bismarcks on Christmas Day.

> A special Swedish type of smörgåsbord is the julbord which is the standard Christmas dinner in Sweden. Julbord is a word consisting of the elements jul, meaning Yule (today synonymous with Christmas) and bord, literally table.

Yes, we usually have bismarcks on Christmas morning, but then, Mom gets those whenever there is a holiday.

It’s the stollen that’s an especially yuletide affair.

@tchrist All those things are traditional?

I've never even heard of oyster stew.

Een kerststol!

I hate it, but it is very traditional to eat on Christmas Day.

I hate everything about it.

The bread is usually dry.

I don't really like currants.

I absolutely hate the kind of candied peel.

And almond paste makes me puke. So there.

Oyster stew is from the Danish side.

It’s icky.

Just milk/cream/butter and salt and poached oysters.

I say poached because the trick is to cook them just barely long enough that they aren’t quite raw anymore.

@Cerberus That looks like marzipan-stuffed stollen to me.

But the rest is identical.

I kinda like the almond kind.

The raisins are ok.

I wouldn’t care for candied peel.

Oyster stew should have onions in it, maybe parsley, maybe celery.

But that stuff Grandpa always had Grandma make was just unpalatable to me.

The family was always quite split as to who would eat the oyster stew.

And Grandma would make the chili rather spicy to keep Grandpa out of it and force him to eat more of the oyster stew that he always insisted on.

@tchrist Wait, you call almond paste marzipan?

1:28 AM

Well.

I didn’t know what it was for sure.

Marsepijn is different.

It is harder than almond paste, which we call amandelspijs.

But Wikipedia is also talking about marzipan.

Is perhaps Dutch marsepijn different from German Marzipan?

Right. Marzipan is like for candies. Almond paste is creamier. But I have had croissants in town where one says it is filled with almond paste and the other says it is filled with marzipan, and I couldn’t tell the difference.

Hmm.

Here we maintain a strict distinction. I hate both, but whatever.

Marzipan

Marzipan is a confection consisting primarily of sugar or honey and almond meal, sometimes augmented with almond oil or extract. It is often made into sweets; common uses are marzipan-filled chocolate and small marzipan imitations of fruits and vegetables. It is also rolled into thin sheets and glazed for icing cakes, primarily birthday and wedding cakes and Christmas cakes. This use is particularly common in England, on large fruitcakes. Marzipan (or almond paste) may also be used as a cake ingredient, as in stollen. In some countries, it is shaped into small figures of animals as a tr...

Marzipan in Spain is rather a big thing, and different here.

This is as I know it ^.

1:31 AM

I would not intentionally acquire it, nor do I think I could finish more than a tiny nibble.

In Spain, one is taught that they invented it. Of course.

Same.

I just read that the word is Italian, earlier etymology uncertain.

It’s lower down in the Wiki page.

KitFox

My heart leaps up when I behold
a pudding or a pie:
Or yummy things in cooking pans,
A Danish, tart, or shortcrust flan,
Custards creeping within their mold,
And shall I try
To wrap it up in marzipan
And I could wish my days no less
Bound each to each by sweet stickiness.

@tchrist Yeah I was reading the Wiki section.

The German wiki, that is, because I thought it was German.

> Die Herkunft des Wortes Marzipan ist bis heute umstritten. Sicher ist nur, dass das Wort im 16. Jahrhundert aus dem italienischen marzapane entlehnt wurde. Zur weiteren Etymologie gab und gibt es zahlreiche Spekulationen,
darunter Herleitungen aus dem lateinischen Marci panis („Markusbrot“), dem persischen märzäban („Markgraf“ - vgl. auch arab. Eigennamen ‚Mortaza‘) oder dem griechischen maza oder massa („Mehlbrei“). In Spanien weist der Volksmund auf den Anblick der Grundmasse zur Herstellung des Turron de Jijona und Mazapan als Massa de Pan, mithin auf einen Brotteig.

Try this one.

Mazapán

El mazapán es un dulce cuyos ingredientes principales son almendras y azúcar, en distinta proporción dependiendo de la receta y el lugar. En España es un postre tradicional navideño, aunque en Toledo, lugar en el que la primera referencia escrita de este producto se remonta al año 1577, se consume todo el año. Hay muchas leyendas acerca de su origen (incluyendo un supuesto origen persa), pero lo más probable es que el mazapán sea de procedencia árabe. Así, el mazapán habría sido introducido en Europa bien desde el sur, con la invasión musulmana de la península Ibérica en el siglo VIII,...

Notice Spanish retains cujus, unlike the lamer Romance tongues that go through ridiculous contortions just to say whose.

1:35 AM

> El origen de la palabra es discutido. Algunas fuentes señalan que el nombre del dulce procede de la península ibérica,3 del latín martius panis (pan de marzo). La Real Academia Española,4 por su parte, acude al árabe hispánico pičmáṭ, y éste del griego παξαμάδιον (pasamadión), bizcochito, influido por masa y pan , o metátesis de pasamadión en masapadión, para explicar la etimología de mazapán.

Well, yes.

Yeah, the Real Academia thinks it's Spanish, how surprising...

No, Arabic.

No, Greek.

Or rather, Greek via Arabic.

1:36 AM

But through Spanish.

Right.

I can read, y'know.

Yeah yeah.

At least simple texts like Wikipaedia.

When I already half-know what it must be.

It’s a real big thing in Toledo.

1:37 AM

Apparently.

Here marsepijn is more closely related to Sinterklaas than Kerstmis.

> Another possible geographic origin is in Spain, then known as Al-Andalus. In Toledo (850-900, though more probably 1150 during the reign of Alfonso VII) this specialty was known as Postre Regio instead of Mazapán) and there are also mentions in The Book of One Thousand and One Nights of an almond paste eaten during Ramadan and as an aphrodisiac.

“Postre Regio” indeed!

What's that?

Later region?

Royal pasta?

> Though, it could also be derived from martis pan, bread of March.

Yes, royal um dessert.

Sweet.

Postre is what one eats post the main course?

Well, yes.

Way after.

It’s the last thing.

With café.

1:40 AM

By the way, someone assured me that "starter" for the first course of a meal is now rare in America.

Untrue.

They’re just dumb.

Hmm.

What’s the ubi version of the recency illusion?

It’s that.

Ubi?

Where?

Locational.

Mini-locational. Provincial.

They think that because it doesn’t appear within 100 yards of their home, it exists nowhere.

> Though, it could also be derived from martis pan, bread of March.

1:42 AM

Ah.

My goodness, the English etymology section is very long.

> Starter sounds NY restaurant pretentious.
...
No one would say starters.

People say starters here.

> Appetizer, entree or main course, dessert. Never pudding. Unless the dessert was an actual starch stabilized custard.

Trust me, in Boulder it is normal to see “Starters” on a menu.

1:44 AM

> Lets say you got some bruscetta, then a steak, then a creme brulee.
That would be appetizer, entree, dessert.

@tchrist Noted.

Would you use "entrée" for main course?

@Cerberus You trust someone who can’t spell?

@tchrist I'm just reporting.

@Robusto Aww and eww.

Marzipan babies. They're delicious.

@tchrist So would you use entrée for main course?

1:46 AM

Here’s the ritziest joint in Boulder’s sample menu: flagstaffhouse.com/menus.html

And would you use appetizer for starter?

Notice they call it First Course and Main Course.

I could say appetizer for starter, but I probably wouldn’t bother.

To me, an appetizer sounds more like an amuse, something that doesn't count as a course.

That's how I would use it in Dutch, if at all.

> Artisian Cheeses

So your local restaurant forgot how to spell Artesian, but it's nice that they serve such rare cheeses!

And here is another decent restaurant menu here, which you will note called them starters.

I think they mean Artisan.

I know.

@tchrist So perhaps he considers starters a "fancy" word, to be used only in fancy restaurants?

1:50 AM

Dunno. As I said, he can’t spell.

By the way, I still find it odd to see "entrée" used for "main course".

No need to be mean.

We may not agree with him, but he's a nice fella.

Here’s a more traditional setup with the words he’s looking for: johnsrestaurantboulder.com/menu

So you call that more traditional?

So starter is not traditional?

The nomenclature.

Not the food, which is fancy.

I'm trying really hard to get an overview of who uses what and when, but it's not working.

I shall have to ask on some website...

1:53 AM

I understand the confusion over entrée. There is some history there, but I forget how that came to be. It is very strange. If I recall correctly, the Australians use it to mean starter.

It is or used to be a course in between fish and meat, I believe, in English.

> 2. Cookery. A ‘made dish’, served between the fish and the joint. Also attrib., as entrée dish. (Littré explains entrées as ‘mets qui se servent au commencement du repas’.)

Au commencement makes more sense.

Here, this one has regular “American” food.

And again, it says “Starters”.

And that nomenclature is pretty much normal?

@tchrist I notice they don't call the steak "entrées".

restaurant-oceanide.com/la-carte.aspx

@Cerberus I think so.

A French restaurant, where entrée means entrée.

@tchrist OK.

1:59 AM

Here is a New Mexican-style restaurant menu in Boulder.

That’s Sante-Fe style, not Tex-Mex.

Their lunch menu is much the same.

Not your typical Taco Bell fare.

Hmm.

I wonder why English mangled the French word entrée so.

But I think that’s enough of a local selection to show that it is not at all abnormal for us to use starters although it is not always done.

@Cerberus As I said, there is some story behind that, but I no longer know it.

“Starters” to me sounds less pretentious than “appetizers” does, frankly.

@tchrist Yes.

Appetizer sounds like a nouveauté to me.

Something like that.

Pretentious, perhaps, but not traditional.

Ah, I was clocking a random restaurant in Oxford, and then I realised I have actually dined there.

And they don't have a proper website...

2:06 AM

Hah

It seems they say starter and main course in Oxford, as I would say.

That’s what I would say.

Well, what I do say.

I have to run get more kitty litter.

OK.

Q: <This question was spam. Please vote to close and flag.>

3:53 AM

-2

[This question was spam. Please vote to close and flag.]

spam

Done.

4:14 AM

@Cerberus Please see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/110030/….

Please don't edit spam posts, as that only makes them harder to delete. Also, no need to close.

@JanDvorak How do you mean harder to delete?

The reason to deface them is to not expose users to spam/malware links ASAP.

@Cerberus anyone flagging responsibly has to check the review history

also, rollbacks invalidate existing flags

Is that a problem?

definitely

At any rate, I've never seen a spammer roll back an edit here...

They're probably bots.

4:19 AM

@Cerberus a high-rep user might rollback with the intention to undo your edit

Huh?

for the first reason I stated

That has never happened, we always do it like this here when the mods are in bed.

Are you saying we've been doing it wrong all these years?

There seemed to be consensus.

But I really have to go now.

Do you suggest asking a new meta post, especially for smalller sites?

This one says clearly "don't edit"

Yes, I saw it.

grumbling I am not really convinced...we don't have much spam anyway.

4:23 AM

Also, my spam filter is triggered by "here is practical explanation...." but not by "[please remove this post]"

I guess maybe it's different on SO, where there are a lot of moderators active all the time?

that's why I suggested asking anew; should I ask for a network-wide policy?

If you ask me, we just keep doing things the way we do, I have no real desire to do anything or bother the higher-ups. But I can't address all those issues you've mentioned now, I have to go now.

Good luck with your spam fight!

poof

EnglishMaster

8:21 AM

In IELTS there are three choices to make in each questions of reading sections

,which are true / false / not given and choosing between false and not given are confusing as hell

RegDwigнt

10:05 AM

@KitFox haha yes I didn't even notice.

@Robusto not with the marzipan babies again. How often do you want to post them? Just eat them already.

You have a beautiful hand though. Looks like a ski jump.

12:42 PM

Morning.

Morning is overrated. We should just start the day after lunch.

Afternoon.

Well, breakfast is one good thing about the morning. So there's that. I wouldn't want to give up that.

@RegDwigнt Just like you to look past the yummy and cute marzipan babies to focus on the hand.

@Mitch If you lived here, you would be starting the day after lunch GMT.

@Mitch I'll happily sleep through breakfast so long as I get a good lunch.

12:48 PM

@MattЭллен Wow. It's already working somewhere.

indeed. I've just had lunch

Hmm. Problem solved.

Ok genius now how donwe solve that pesky poop problem?

only have poops that aren't pesky

Breakfast is donuts and pigs in blankets.

And work.

And, soon, coffee.

@MattЭллен I always thought you had layabout poops. Now I know.

12:51 PM

Thanks for thinking of me

KitFox

Hi!

See you later!

Hi!

oh.

hmmm. maybe happily is the wrong word. I'll forgetfully sleep through breakfast and complain about it until I get a good lunch, at which point I'll forget I missed breakfast.

You can't leave for work without a proper breakfast.

I do not, but I was thinking of days where I can oversleep until lunch

If you don't have breakfast you increase your risk for heart disease.

12:59 PM

well, proper might be an overstatement. Better than nothing is more accurate

The Guardian says so, so it must be true.

@MattЭллен Done.

> During the 16-year study, 7.3% of participants who reported regularly missing breakfast were diagnosed with coronary heart disease. Among their breakfast-eating counterparts 5.8% were diagnosed with CHD, amounting to a 27% relative reduction in risk.

lol

@Robusto clutches chest

statistics are so much hype

for every 1000 breakfast missers, 73 got CHD. For every 1000 breakfast eaters, 58 got CHD. I'm not impressed.

1:03 PM

I believe I'll continue to eat my breakfast. Specifically, a sugary donut.

now, the more interesting statistic is that 1 in 4 people have a hole in their heart

entirely irrelevant to the converstaion, but much more significant

@MattЭллен You mean one more than usual.

yes :D

all prenatal humans have a hole in their heart in the wall between the left and right side. some born people's holes don't heal over or break open

most of the time it doens't even matter

nature's screwy like that

1:27 PM

@MattЭллен Yes, from that one girl who went away. sigh

sigh

heart breaking sigh

I want to see a study about if anybody's heart was really broken.

straining on the toilet can also reopen the hole

Or scared to death. "Subjects were placed in a room with an EKG monitor. and a scary guy in a mask popped out. X% hearts stopped for more than 5 seconds."

@MattЭллен strains to not make more poop jokes

how about joop pokes?

1:34 PM

That's nasty!

RegDwigнt

2:32 PM

@Robusto unlike you I can look right past the yummy and the cute to see the old and the hideous. It is a special power. I like to call it Y Ray. Sometimes also Y Susan.

2:47 PM

I know Susan Ray.

3:14 PM

It's not who you know but... oh right ... it is about who you know.