English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

12:00 AM

Someone last night commented that at least they weren’t using it for sportfucking.

I guess there are homeless in the area; other neighbors have reported similar things.

Makes me wish I had a watchcat.

-4

Q: Pause for the fear of paws: a comma conundrum (Revised & Updated)

Is there an accepted standard for comma placement following a coordinating connector? Which sentence is punctuated correctly? I like dogs, but, I am embarrassed to admit in the presence of polite company, cats scare me witless. I like dogs, but I am embarrassed to admit in the presence of polit...

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A: Pause for the fear of paws: a comma conundrum (Revised & Updated)

The question poses a false dilemma. You have read the advice you found in Writer’s Harbrace Handbook as a blanket prohibition of a comma after a coordinating connector. But that’s not so. The advice is that a comma is not necessary or desirable for the purpose of separating a coordinating conn...

He’s answered his own question — at length.

He uses the second person, though. He must be talking to himself. Odd.

Robusto

And who could resist the crisp, refreshing taste of Pocari Sweat?

KitFox

Ewww.

tchrist

Big seller, that one.

Robusto

Then perhaps you'd care for some Hot Calpis?

tchrist

Cow piss?

simchona

12:04 AM

@Robusto It's tasty

Robusto

Cerberus

@simchona You seriously know this?

Robusto

These may both be purchased at Cafe Dreadful.

Cerberus

That could actually be a name of a hip café here.

Robusto

> All of these extraordinary snacks and drinks, and many other equally strange offerings, are probably on the menu of a cafe in my neighbourhood here in Tokyo. The rather bizarrely named Cafe Dreadful is located suspiciously close to a major hospital. Potentially taking my life in my hands, I ventured inside one day to try to get some kind of logical explanation for the cafe’s name.

> A waitress told me that the owner’s wife had chosen it. She wanted the cafe to have a sophisticated English name!!! Heaven only knows what the poor woman thought dreadful meant, perhaps she was taught English by Bozo the Clown and Mr Tiddles, his amusing glove puppet sidekick?

Cerberus

12:09 AM

Haha.

Here it would be ironic.

Robusto

Jack Seward writes at length about the time he worked for a Japanese auto manufacturer and tried, in vain, to talk them out of naming one of their export models (for English-speaking countries) the Minister. They thought it sounded dignified, as in Prime Minister.

Cerberus

What's wrong with it?

It sounds too...stuffy and clerical?

Robusto

Hahaha.

David Wallace

@Robusto That's not what F-cups makes ME think of.

Cerberus

I'm afraid I'm not getting this pun, or whatever it is...

Robusto

12:13 AM

@DavidWallace Hahaha. I didn't think of that. Bra sizes stop at multiple D in the States.

Gay cows:

And miss mouse.

@Cerberus Calpico is delicious

Cerberus

@Robusto D'oh, I said "clerical", but I still don't get it.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

It sounds too...stuffy and clerical?

@simchona I see. So where is it sold?

David Wallace

12:15 AM

@Robusto Really? Here, they go ..., D, DD, F, G, ...

Robusto

@Cerberus The first thing we think of, at least in America, when someone says minister is the religious context.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, that's what I said.

So...

Why is that so bad for a car?

Robusto

@DavidWallace If they stop at G we could still be musical. H if we allow the Germans in.

Cerberus

Not hip or something?

Robusto

@Cerberus It just is, all right?

Cerberus

12:16 AM

I thought this was about something obscene, but OK.

i am disappoint

David Wallace

@tchrist I would like to buy whatever that is, for my two gay friends who have recently adopted a son.

Robusto

@Cerberus Always gotta be about sex with you, huh?

Cerberus

Of course!

tchrist

@Robusto See the starboard.

simchona

@Cerberus Hawaii, Japanese stores, Los Angeles

David Wallace

12:17 AM

@Robusto I think they go to K or L here. Which seems extreme to me.

Cerberus

@tchrist I take it the "fathers" are like inspiring teachers or something in this Asian language?

tchrist

@DavidWallace I’m really happy for them. It’s always so much harder for men.

@Cerberus Dunno.

Robusto

When you get to an L cup size, I think a bra should come with a rain fly.

Cerberus

@simchona Ah OK. I wonder whether we have it here, then, since I live in our local Chinatown...

David Wallace

Actually, adopted is not quite the right word. One of them is the bio-father, so it's only a half-adoption.

Robusto

12:20 AM

@DavidWallace I suppose the non-bio father looks on it as a whole adoption.

... "apparently" is apparently unfathomable to some people! So I suggest you to not use it ... — Xavier Vidal Hernández 2 days ago

Was that a joke?

tchrist

@DavidWallace That’s interesting.

@Robusto I can’t figure him out. But the upvote must be joke.

Robusto

"In 1969 I gave up women and alcohol. It was the worst 20 minutes of my life." George Best

George Best

George Best (22 May 1946 – 25 November 2005) was a Northern Irish professional footballer who played as a winger for Manchester United and the Northern Ireland national team. In 1968 he won the European Cup with United, and was named the European Footballer of the Year and Football Writers' Association Player of the Year. He is described by the national team's governing body, the Irish Football Association, as the "greatest player to ever pull on the green shirt of Northern Ireland". Born and raised in Belfast, Northern Ireland, Best began his club career in England with Manchester Uni...

I bet @Matt would know who this guy was.

"I have a gift for enraging people, but if I ever bore you it will be with a knife." Louise Brooks

Louise Brooks

Mary Louise Brooks (November 14, 1906 – August 8, 1985), generally known by her stage name Louise Brooks, was an American dancer, model, showgirl and silent film actress, noted for popularizing the bobbed haircut. Brooks is best known as the lead in three feature films made in Europe, including two G. W. Pabst films: Pandora's Box (1929), Diary of a Lost Girl (1929), and Prix de Beauté (Miss Europe) (1930). She starred in 17 silent films and, late in life, authored a memoir, Lulu in Hollywood. Early life Born in Cherryvale, Kansas, Louise Brooks was the daughter of Leonard Porter Brooks, ...

Cerberus

Haha.

tchrist

Sounds like Dorothy Parker.

tchrist

12:46 AM

Strong argument for vegetarianism there.

Robusto

Too much truth in advertising.

Cerberus

It may be just buttock or something, incorrectly translated?

cornbread ninja

@tchrist hooray!

tchrist

What cut of fowl is chicken-butt?

Cerberus

You're no doubt eating its derrière too when you eat a whole chicken.

cornbread ninja

12:58 AM

When questioned by her editor about some piece's upcoming deadline, Dorothy Parker, having just been on her honeymoon, quipped "I've been too fucking busy and vice versa."

@Robusto there's a really weird Team Fortress map that has an ad for Pocari Sweat.

tchrist

Seems to be a theme.

Cerberus

See?

tchrist

There’s still something wrong with the whole idea.

David Wallace

It could be the meat of scared donkeys.

tchrist

sacred?

David Wallace

1:10 AM

No, scared. As in chicken.

tchrist

Oh.

Cerberus

Haha.

That reminds me of Posh Nosh.

►

Parody on cooking programmes.

"Pour the potatoes in hot bubbling water for four minutes. No more, or they'll get scared."

She already said they needed to be "embarrassed" earlier.

tchrist

I want to know what the Japanese think fuckin’ means.

Cerberus

"Matisse the oil sparingly over your vegetables and pop them into your Aga."

"If you haven't got an Aga..." <blank stare>

"This sturgeon is only 43,000 pounds. You can order it from endangered.species.direct.com."

"There's an old saying. Like schoolboys, Riesling is best enjoyed young."

tchrist

Is that a Jesuit saying?

Cerberus

1:24 AM

Haha wow.

tchrist

Spare Oom

1:55 AM

@Robusto It's not quite related, but perhaps perform magic with has some potential. Something seems vaguely wrong about performing magic with children though. It makes me think of cooking with and brings to mind Hansel and Gretel somehow.

Robusto

2:07 AM

@tchrist Well, coming from a culture that sells used schoolgirl panties in vending machines, it's anybody's guess.

@SpareOom You would perform magic with children if you were teaching them or they were in your act. Otherwise you would be performing it for them. But never to them. Just ... never.

Spare Oom

@Robusto Agreed. But what about using performing to like people say teach to a test?

@Robusto That's so weird!

cornbread ninja

wowie zowie. I ought to go into the press release business.

Robusto

@SpareOom "Teach to a test" has a separate, specialized (and recent) meaning. It doesn't mean the test is being taught anything. The people being taught are the students.

simchona

@Robusto If the test were somehow learning, we'd all be better off

Spare Oom

@Robusto Ah, yes.

What about idioms.thefreedictionary.com/play+to+the+crowd

Spare Oom

2:31 AM

Hi @Cerberus.

tchrist

You know how you can write reëlect to avoid hyphenation in re-elect? Well, how can you rewrite re-creation without a hyphen and have it still mean a new creation, not recreational activities?

Cerberus

Hello.

Spare Oom

@tchrist This was very popular in Japan. I've seen it sold in Asian supermarkets here in the USA, but can't bring myself to try it. Just another sports drink anyway. @Robusto @KitFox en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocari_Sweat

tchrist

rēcreation doesn’t look so hot.

Spare Oom

@tchrist rēcreation? What's that? Different from recreation?

tchrist

2:42 AM

@SpareOom Pocari makes me think of Pocahontas. Or Polaris, the north star.

simchona

Can someone please help me understand the first two paragraphs of this?

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Q: In which situations is it acceptable to use 'Law French' phrases?

Lawyers often use Latin or French phrases. I was told by a lawyer that these expressions are mainly used to justify the large fees that lawyers charge. In other words, it is a form of professional jargon designed to make the profession incomprehensibly to outsiders. A Barrister who taught me L...

expressions

tchrist

@SpareOom There is one word recreation for a new creation, and a different word recreation for something fun.

@sim Law French has a long history in Britain. It’s the last vestige of the Norman occupation. It should only be used with legal documents.

David Wallace

Pfft. Close it as a duplicate of the one about Latin.

simchona

@tchrist I meant how the first two paragraphs connect to the question itself

tchrist

I think he is just trying to give some background.

David Wallace

2:47 AM

Do we know whether it's a he or a she?

simchona

Huh. Ok.

tchrist

There are specific terms in a British (either English or Scottish) court that derive from Norman French. They don’t look quite like real French anymore.

We have some in America, but not so many.

@DavidWallace I was assuming a he.

Whence the question?

David Wallace

@tchrist I noticed.

Not all female Robyns are spelt with a Y.

He/she is the one that I recently accused of talking crap. I'm surprised that my comment wasn't flagged and deleted.

tchrist

He’s very fuzzy-brained.

Things like voir dire are still used in all English common law courts, which is pretty much everywhere that speaks English. I don’t know another word for it.

Americans tend to assume that anyone named Kelly, Jamie, Robin, etc is female, despite how common those are as guys’ names in the British Isles.

David Wallace

I know a couple called Kim (male) and Ainslie (female). They lived in UK for a while, where Kim for a man is almost unheard of, and Ainslie for a woman is almost as rare.

Some of their friends would, just as a joke, introduce them the wrong way round if they were meeting someone completely new.

tchrist

2:54 AM

Some you never know, like Chris or Tracy.

David Wallace

Here, Tracy for a man is very rare.

tchrist

Here, too, but I grew up with one.

simchona

I know a male Tracy. Just one.

David Wallace

Might be the same one.

tchrist

Only if @sim is hanging out around Chicago.

David Wallace

2:56 AM

Maybe she is!

simchona

I was...until two weeks ago.

But this Tracy is not from Chi-town.

David Wallace

Tom, you and I aren't even in the same country, and we have at least one mutual real life acquaintance.

tchrist

Tracy Lesch is 51, and once did some artwork for TSR. And other things.

Yes, but hackers are a small in-crowd.

David Wallace

Who says I'm a hacker?

I wasn't connected with IT in any way when I first met Nathan.

tchrist

Very well.

He was living here when I met him.

Close by.

So that doesn't exactly count.

David Wallace

2:58 AM

Yeah, I drove him away from NZ pretty good!

tchrist

Unless you did too.

I think it was wifey.

I haven't seen their kids in forever.

David Wallace

Yeah, I don't really remember. Too long ago, and I care far too little.

tchrist

When I knew them, they were a complete pain, because they were in that 0-2 range.

That reminds me: it’s September, so they should be around. I should ping them.

They were waiting to come stateside till September this year.

Robin claims to be Scottish. I vote for male.

David Wallace

@tchrist Hah! When I read as far as the second comma, I assumed you meant Nathan and his wife. I wish that you hadn't clarified that it was about the kids.

tchrist

Families can be challenging.

David Wallace

3:04 AM

I flatted with Nathan and his then-girlfriend (not the same woman that he's now married to), for a few months. Big mistake.

tchrist

@sim Robin seems really spacy.

I read flattered.

David Wallace

Oh, yeah, what do Americans say? .... roomed?

tchrist

Because you were a third leg?

Just lived with.

We don’t use flat as a verb, really.

He would have been very young then, no?

David Wallace

Younger than me. Still is.

simchona

@tchrist Why?

Mahnax

3:06 AM

Good evening.

tchrist

@simchona Because he writes things that seem unconnected, and just kind of blather on.

It isn’t your fault you can’t see connections. It’s his for not making them.

Nathan has always been swell as far as I’m concerned.

Get him to tell you the story of when he was sleeping over in my guest room.

Wifey showed up in the morning, unexpected, and snuck in and climbed in bed with him.

He was buck naked.

And had no idea it was her at first.

Really quite amusing.

David Wallace

He thought it was you?

tchrist

Bingo.

David Wallace

Or is it just that lots of people climb into bed with him?

simchona

You must have one hell of a figure.

tchrist

3:09 AM

Jenine is much bigger than I am, actually.

She’s like 5'11.

Plus it could have been my cousin, who was living here at the time, or somebody's random girlfriend.

But the last person he expected was the right person.

This was a long time ago, @sim.

Like 15 years or so.

David Wallace

I used to get on really well with Nathan. I considered him a close friend. Which is why we chose to flat together. But, umm, he was horrible to live with. We are not friends any longer, even though this took place in 1992-1993.

tchrist

You can keep your friends, or you can live with them.

Those are your only choices.

David Wallace

Yes, but I was young and foolish then.

tchrist

This too shall pass. Has.

Well, one out of two, at least.

Nathan has turned . . . respectable, almost. Whoda thunk it?

Sigh. No research:

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Q: "-ess" and "-ine"

"Actress" and "hostess" are two of many instances of a suffix that is also used frequently in Italian, so I'd guess it has Latin origins. "Heroine" uses what seems to be a Germanic suffix. Are there any other instances of that suffix in English?

etymology suffixes

I guess that’s supposed to be our job.

simchona

Googling "etymology ine" shows it isn't Germanic.

At least, not how I thought Germanic was used...

tchrist

3:22 AM

Damn it.

I was just about to hit post.

simchona

You still can--there's a grace period.

tchrist

No, there isn’t.

It is stippled out, and won’t let me.

Damn it.

There’s only a grace period for people who don’t have javascript enabled, or some sort of magic.

I do, so don’t.

This pissed me off the other day when Barrie snuck something in several minutes late, and I wasn’t allowed to do so even a few second late.

It is not fair!

simchona

Disable JavaScript?

tchrist

I don’t know what it is.

simchona

Oh, I see.

tchrist

3:24 AM

All I know is I am always locked out the second it closes, and Barrie isn’t.

David Wallace

If the answer to your question is "disable Javascript", then you asked the wrong question.

tchrist

And frankly, that pisses me off.

Even more so than the closures do.

Because they don’t apply to everybody.

Just to me.

It isn’t right.

simchona

Post on MSO?

tchrist

I searched. There are conflicting answers.

David Wallace

Does anyone know why votes get locked in after a time?

tchrist

3:28 AM

They used to be insta-locked.

Now there is a grace period for misfires.

David Wallace

This morning, I upvoted an answer, then on later reflection, realised it wasn't as good an answer as I thought it was. I tried to remove my upvote, but it was too late. This has happened to me twice now. It's kind of annoying.

simchona

You can ninja edit to undo it

tchrist

Not that I’ve never done that.

simchona

Of course not. 'Twould be wrong.

tchrist

I chose my words carefully.

David Wallace

3:29 AM

Ooh, that's a good idea. It's probably too late though, because I already posted a comment that strongly hinted that I didn't mean to upvote.

tchrist

I don’t always reverse my vote.

Sometimes I just level it.

David Wallace

Oh, it doesn't deserve a downvote. Just no upvote.

tchrist

Yes, exactly.

David Wallace

In the end, I settled for posting a superior answer myself, but I still have fewer votes than the answer that I mistakenly upvoted.

tchrist

Where’s your Sportsmanship badge?

David Wallace

3:31 AM

And it will stay that way, because it's on a low-volume topic.

There's a sportsmanship badge?

tchrist

There is.

Here.

It’s oddly rare. Now I wonder why that might be?

David Wallace

Do they have to be answers to 100 different questions?

tchrist

I don’t believe so.

Just 100 different answers on questions you’ve posted an answer to.

David Wallace

And I frequently upvote other people's answers to questions that I have answered myself. Just not frequently enough - there's no way I will have reached 100 already.

I see some scope for sockpuppetry.

tchrist

Ick.

I just can’t believe people pull that shit.

David Wallace

3:35 AM

I don't think it's terribly common, for people not called Nortonn.

tchrist

He still posts every day or three.

David Wallace

It amused me when two people were apparently sharing the Carlo_R user.

tchrist

I heard that.

Didn’t watch.

That’s even weirder.

David Wallace

I can think of no other likely explanation for that user's behaviour.

tchrist

MPD?

David Wallace

3:38 AM

That was the unlikely explanation that crossed my mind.

Of course, @simchona may have an opinion that differs from mine about that person(s).

tchrist

He was kind of frazzlebrained, but those cases are so rare you’d never find one normally.

For the record, there are two completely different -ess suffixes in English, and heroin is a direct and recent borrowing from Latin.

Which is an interesting thing, and could have been a fine answer.

Both are moderately productive ones, too.

simchona

@tchrist His question is literally "what are more instances of these suffixes"

tchrist

One forms feminines, one turns adjectives into nouns of quality.

I was trying to provide a better answer than he asked question.

David Wallace

"Nouns of quality". A beautiful phrase.

We should call you "excellent tchrist", like that Xavier person did.

simchona

If you improve his question, it can be reopened. Just that, in its current form, it's not really constructive.

tchrist

3:41 AM

He says all kinds of odd things, but His Excellence is not normal.

I can’t improve the question, because it is not my question.

It would not be right for me to do that, would it?

David Wallace

Who knows? You're supposed to not change something's meaning when you edit it. But if you don't change its meaning, how can you make it worthy of reopening?

tchrist

Yes exactly.

Huntress and largess are examples of the two sorts.

Others of the second category include prowess and duress.

The latter recalls the phrase in durance vile.

For some reason.

Archaic words of that pattern include richess(e) and humbless(e).

Modern riches derives from archaic richess(e).

The second version is not very productive.

People have tried to make things like idlesse in lieu of idleness, but I don’t know of any that have caught on.

The first version is of course reasonably productive.

Or was.

abbess, countess, duchess, hostess, lioness, mistress, princess, enchantress, sorceress, goddess, seamstress, songstress, authoress, giantess, Jewess, patroness, poetess, priestess, quakeress, tailoress, lioness, tigress, actress, doctress, protectress, waitress, stewardess, governeresse, adultress, conqueress, murderess, adventuress, confectioness, entertainess, instructess — some of which have falled by the wayside.

Sigh. No chance to show any quality here.

The Latin form, heroina, was still in use in the 17th century. It is a very recent borrowing.

Shog9

@DavidWallace This is one of those "not so much rules, more guidelines" things... Edit to improve first, then double-check to make sure you haven't completely lost the intent of the OP.

David Wallace

3:56 AM

@Shog9 Thank you.

Shog9

@DavidWallace This was put in place over fears of gaming - the idea being, someone could post an answer, "strategically" down-vote competing answers, collect pile-on votes, retract his down-votes, rinse, repeat.

David Wallace

Oh, OK, I understand now. Thank you for that too.

I, of course, would never have thought of doing such a thing.

I come from a culture where pile-on voting doesn't make much sense.

tchrist

Collect pile-on votes just because of the relative disparity in scores? Then why would he retract the downvotes?

David Wallace

In any case, I'm sure somebody will upvote my superior answer eventually!

tchrist

OFFS:

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Q: Did president Obama break punctuation rules in his tweet?

After Clint Easterwood's RNC convention speech, president Obama tweeted as follows: This seat's taken. Did he break any apostrophe punctuation rules? I am guessing he didn't as I haven't heard any objections to it. I am trying to find out why this usage is correct. PS: I am assuming the a...

apostrophe

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…