English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-05-22 (page 1 of 3)

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12:10 AM

Hey, no picking on Apple users!

user19161

12:29 AM

@BOSS Perhaps everyone reads in their heads, but still written and spoken language are distinct. One is written and the other is spoken, that's the difference!

user19161

On a related note, we may pause in speech at places where we think there should be commas, but perhaps according to certain guides there should not be commas at those places.

user19161

2:02 AM

@Robusto No picking on Apple users, but one may pick apples from the trees.

4:07 AM

@ClarkKent What do you think of "two iPhones 4S"?

just curious, no big deal or anything haha

user19161

@Zach I prefer the other form.

user19161

In this case 4S does not modify iPhone. It is part of the name of the product.

user19161

However if one relegates its status to a mere modifier than iPhones 4S may be used.

user19161

But this is just my gut feeling.

user19161

4:25 AM

@mahnax Boo!

@ClarkKent Hi.

How are you today?

user19161

@Mahnax Same. I answered many questions the last few hours though.

@ClarkKent Oh, good. Going for 20k?

user19161

@Mahnax I think so. What do you think of this?

user19161

1

Q: X are equivalent to Y in Z

I'm pretty new to English StackExchange, and English is not my first language, so I'm not even sure what tags to look for. So, I apologize if this has been discussed before. I'm writing up a blog and somehow I got confused with the proper grammar for a sentence that compares one thing to another...

comparative comparison

4:30 AM

@ClarkKent I think your answer is right.

4 hours later…

user19161

8:29 AM

Give people food and they will be full for a day, teach people to earn their food and they wont be hungry anymore. Put it simple everyone can point out which one is correct here, they are different type of pronounce so give more information in your answer if you want my +1. I am not as easy like your friends. – speedyGonzales 18 mins ago

user19161

@speedy Some people learn through examples. Also, pronouns existed before "pronoun" was coined. – Clark Kent just now edit

user19161

\endrant

user19161

Maybe I should have told him to learn how to spell properly first.

user image

Which is which? And why?

user19161

@Vitaly So I can only choose one for alien and one for human?

8:36 AM

Those are my two best friends! Where did you get their photos from?

@DavidWallace Evolution and the Social Mind, Prototypicality Bias, page 257.

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly I can't tell :D I would say the left one is female, the right one is male. Probably because of the slimmer features of the left. If I was forced to chose, I would say the left one is alien because of the longer head.

user19161

@Vitaly Right is human, left is alien.

Hm. I really can't decide whether the alien is on the right or on the left, myself.

Thanks.

user19161

Also I have capped at 260 points today, so don't vote for me anymore.

user19161

8:39 AM

@Vitaly It's just that the right face appears more natural.

@ClarkKent You obviously have too much time on your hands.

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly they both look kinda weird, since they don't have eyebrows.

@ClarkKent That would explain the ubiquity of all those aliens-among-us conspiracy theories. I am sure I can find just as “unnatural”-looking faces by the dozen in a crowd.

user19161

@Vitaly Yeah, I was just choosing one to be alien and one to be human. Each can be either of course.

@ClarkKent He recently used a word that I didn't know.

user19161

8:43 AM

@MattЭллен Good thinking. Fools seldom differ.

but then, he used it incorrectly, so I suppose it doesn't count.

user19161

@DavidWallace What word?

… and the left face appears more natural to me …

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Huh? You even get mentioned there occasionally.

user19161

This is the first time I have gotten 260 rep. A miracle is about to happen then...

8:45 AM

@ClarkKent I can't remember. I told him to delete it, and to my surprise, he did.

user19161

@Vitaly I wanted to say that, but I looked and thought again and changed my mind.

It was a SWR. He sat down with his dictionary and made several attempts to answer it.

user19161

@DavidWallace Ah I recommended him all the dictionaries I knew about!

It was something to do with entropy and reversible processes. Gigili might remember; she saw a couple of incarnations of his answer. But I've forgotten.

user19161

0

Q: How to write dates correctly

I have document dated 05.05.2012. Should I say: Based on the document from 05 May or Based on the document from 5th May or Based on the document from 05 of may?

word-choice grammar date

user19161

8:48 AM

Is this off-topic?

No

Matt Эллен

Not quite

although I think the answer will vary dialectially

user19161

Well, one writes dates according to conventions. I like to use 22 May 2012 myself.

Matt Эллен

and depend on the context

Of course it will.

Matt Эллен

8:49 AM

so, it could be overly broad

i.e. NARQ

user19161

2 digits, 3 letters, 4 digits is so elegant to me.

user19161

And it is what I am supposed to use in military service writing.

One time I was in Canada, I had to do some banking in early July. I realised that I didn't know whether they write the month first, like Americans, or the day first, like sane people. So I made sure to go to the bank on 7 July, so it didn't matter.

8

Matt Эллен

lol

good choice!

user19161

@DavidWallace And if they say by X day, just go on X-1 day in case.

8:50 AM

Yeah, that too.

user19161

Noah asks many questions, rarely upvotes, rarely accepts and frequently downvotes. I think I won't answer his questions anymore.

Matt Эллен

also, his questions seem weird somehow

user19161

I deleted an answer just now because he did not bother giving me an upvote even after I responded to his comments feverishly.

Matt Эллен

I don't get his will vs would question at all

user19161

He just needs to open a grammar book and study everything rather than keep asking these questions in various guises.

user19161

8:54 AM

Also, I am still in shock that I got so much rep today so fast. Is there a conspiracy here?

user19161

@Vitaly The left one looks like the robot in I, Robot. The right one looks like the kid in The Polar Express.

Matt Эллен

Yes, the little oligarchs are conspiring to get you more rep, so that they can use you as a puppet figure head in their bid for power over the SE network.

@ClarkKent I often find it surprising which answers people like.

Especially on math.

user19161

@DavidWallace Ah, anyway my ELU answers are all very short.

user19161

But I try to format things properly and give links where applicable.

8:59 AM

You're so diligent!

user19161

Hello @hugo!

@ClarkKent hello!

user19161

@Hugo I am J in case you don't know...

@ClarkKent Aha, a name change?

user19161

0

Q: Position of 'also'

What is the correct position of the word 'also'? I would like to also talk about ... I would also like to talk about ...

adverbs word-order

user19161

9:11 AM

@Hugo Yeah, I was J and WH and now CK!

user19161

@matt Wow you listed so many options in the above!

@ClarkKent Why the changes?

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent heh, I just thought of another, but I think 7 is enough to be getting on with

user19161

@Hugo For fun. But I realized that people really didn't know so I think I will change back soon.

@ClarkKent :) I was wondering who this "new" (or old, before-my-time) name was with so much rep!

user19161

9:13 AM

@MattЭллен The magic number 7, not 9000!

Matt Эллен

yes, 7. Or maybe 8

morning @RegDwight :)

user19161

I think Noah needs to study all the verb tenses and all the modals once and for all, something I have not done thoroughly myself.

@ClarkKent Maybe coming here and asking slightly unusual questions is how he studies.

user19161

Otherwise all these questions will go on forever.

user19161

@DavidWallace That will lead nowhere actually. It's actually how some people try to learn math, by doing a million exercises without understanding.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:17 AM

Ohai

user19161

That's how the students here score in exams even though they know nothing about mathematics.

user19161

That is why we have politicians who cannot think. They got their qualifications that way without learning how to think.

@ClarkKent still, absorbing the mentality of the native speaker (as opposed to trying to remember explicit rule-based reasoning) is a viable language-learning strategy

the mathematical counterpart would be hanging around among fellow mathematicians within the walls of an educational institution (this does more than most people seem to realize)

user19161

@Vitaly Ah yes, learning through example. But his examples are random and not meaningfully collected.

user19161

0

Q: Unisex slang for "man"

In slang, one can use the generic "man", to describe his conversant. For instance: Man, it's sure hot here this season How can I express that for a woman I'm talking with?

user19161

9:24 AM

Interesting question, I never thought about it.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

You think it is?

It is not describing the conversant.

It's just an interjection.

This is like asking for the unisex equivalent for Goddamn.

user19161

The more I think about this the more I don't know what the answer is. That is the beauty of this site.

user19161

There are multiple ways of looking at things like these.

Matt Эллен

I agree with Reg. /sockpuppet

user19161

For example, I only learnt the standard pronunciation of "binoculars" a few weeks ago.

9:26 AM

Hello

yeah, man is an interjection there

Matt Эллен

like oh, boy! or flipping heck!

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Closed as gen-ref.

user19161

Man could be an interjection or it could really refer to a man.

user19161

I am not joking here.

user19161

9:28 AM

There are two possibilities.

@ClarkKent Not if people give him good answers.

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent right, except he's specified slang, so it can't

it's not describing a conversant

user19161

@MattЭллен One can then ask whether the two senses are related.

It's like asking what the equivalent of "Goddammit" is for atheists.

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent You could! The etymology of man as an interjection is a different question

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:31 AM

Don't we have a question on boy already? Or was it in a comment exchange somewhere...

user19161

@MattЭллен Yeah, I know that the interjection came from you as were trying to say "Matt Ellen" but omitted the "ttelle".

Matt Эллен

lol

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Thwack.

user19161

I expect that to be starred.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

You expect wrong.

Matt Эллен

9:31 AM

well, I'm not that egotistical

user19161

I think it should get five stars by the morrow.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

What you does wit'em?

Selling off off eBay?

@Reg was that you who answered my question what обращение would be in English?

Matt Эллен

Become invincible and defeat Bowser in one go?

user19161

I keep the stars to illuminate my dark nights!

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:33 AM

@Vitaly I doubt that. I don't remember no such thing.

@Vitaly Not cheeky, then?

@DavidWallace What?

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@MattЭллен you don't need a single star for that.

user19161

I feel like asking on the main site about the use of "Holy Buddha" as an exclamation.

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Okay. And what is it in English? :D

9:34 AM

обращение doesn't mean cheeky?

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@Vitaly well in what sense? Обращение can mean many things.

Address.

user19161

I think only Reg uses HB but maybe I am wrong.

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 The syntactic term.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Ah that.

@DavidWallace No.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:34 AM

Um.

Well I have to pass.

I don't know what it's supposed to mean in Russian.

Yeah, there's an English word that is close enough, but I'm always forgetting it.

Обращение (лингвистика)

Обращение — обособленный интонационно и грамматически самостоятельный компонент предложения или сложного синтаксического целого, служащий для обозначения лица или предмета, являющегося адресатом речи. Обращение обычно не относят к членам предложения и не включают в синтаксическое дерево зависимостей или составляющих. Приду, приду я вновь, мой милый домосед, С тобою вспоминать беседы прежних лет (Пушкин) Уважаемый Олег Давидович Функции В речи обращение выполняет две функции, обычно реализующиеся совместно: * апеллятивная (призывная) функция * экспрессивная (оценочно-характеризующая) фу...

user19161

Will my HB question get downvoted?

Matt Эллен

have you posted it?

@Vitaly so I was right then. I said it doesn't.

user19161

Nope.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:36 AM

Oh, I'm in a different place.

Формы обращения

Форма обращения — это слово или сочетание слов, называющие того, к кому обращена речь. Оно имеет форму именительного падежа, может стоять в любом месте предложения. В различных языковых и социальных культурах существуют различные формы обращения. В организациях, занимающихся какой-либо профессиональной деятельностью, форма обращения определяется законом, уставом или корпоративной политикой, которая может быть уникальной для конкретной организации. Ты и Вы Наиболее распространённым разграничением является формальное обращение и неформальное. Официально формальное обращение в современно...

Matt Эллен

then it can't get down voted!

user19161

Who uses HB other than Reg?

user19161

FYI, JC is listed as an exclamation in CALD but not HB.

Matt Эллен

@ClarkKent staedtler

user19161

@MattЭллен I prefer 2B.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

9:37 AM

Well. I see no problem with going with address.

Except that it isn't the English word I am looking for.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Also, how's that a nominative? It's vocative all the way.

Geordie slang often ends sentences with "man":
===
In my part of the world it's common to say "man" after many phrases. "What are you doing, man?", "just get in the car, man", and to express exasperation "aah man!".

But what happens if you're talking to a woman? Obviously, you just add "woman" to the end.

Aah man woman.

Just get in the car man woman.

But the purpose of adding "man" to a phrase is to lend it emphasis. So properly, that should be aah man woman man, etc.
===
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003660.php

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@Vitaly ask JSBangs.

user19161

@Hugo WTF?

9:38 AM

I should have added that word to some online Ru-En dictionary that accepts submissions the last time I had managed to remember it. It still isn't in any online dictionaries of that sort.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Oh so you actually know the word and you forgot it?

Yeah.

It's not the Russian word I forgot, mind you. :P

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Oh so someone's semi-eidetic memory doesn't work for Englishes. I see.

Now I am having to find the message where I said exactly that.

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@Hugo you should post that in a comment on the main site.

9:42 AM

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Already did :)

in War Metal Tyrant, Jul 17 '11 at 16:48, by Vitaly

Some sort of very specific “perfect” memory.

in War Metal Tyrant, Jul 17 '11 at 16:48, by Vitaly

Which doesn't work for English. Just Russian.

Meysam رها در بند

10:29 AM

Hi

In this sentence: "these names, which may not be of English origin but are familiar to English speakers"

could somebody please explain the grammatical structure of "of English origin"?

I don't understand your question.

Meysam رها در بند

Hi @DavidWallace

Matt Эллен

something of English origin originates in the English language or from England

"of English origin" just means that these names originated in England

JINX! You owe me a coke.

Matt Эллен

bah

Meysam رها در بند

10:33 AM

ok, let me explain my question in detail

Matt Эллен

user image

@MattЭллен Thank you.

Matt Эллен

np

Meysam رها در بند

This is my question in detail:

5

Q: Changing Noun to Adjective using "of"

Is it possible to change Nouns to Adjective by adding "of" before the noun? Like: of help = helpful => not of any help = not helpful of interest = interesting => of a lot of interest = very interesting of problem = problematic => of a lot of problem = very problematic of no use = not u...

nouns adjectives

Which is still kind of an unanswered question for me

I suspect the answer to your question hinges on whether it's a mass noun or a count noun.

"of book" doesn't work because "book" is a count noun.

"of assistance" works because "assistance" is a mass noun.

Matt Эллен

10:36 AM

exactly

of problem doesn't work because problems are countable

and if it's an unanswered question for you, why did you accept an answer?

Matt Эллен

> I've got 99 problems, and I'd like that to be taken into account when judging me

– 50 Cent

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace Because I thought I might feel guilty if I didn't accept one of the answers

I didn't see the question after the numerous updates that you made, otherwise I would have provided an answer for you.

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace Do you mind sparing some answer now?

10:39 AM

I think it's wrong to accept an answer that you feel doesn't fully answer the question. It discourages further people from answering, and may therefore deprive people who have the same question in the future, of a good answer.

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace You are right, that was a mistake I am ashamed of

There is no room for shame in stack exchange. Learn and move on.

@DavidWallace Then my accept rate would be zero.

@Vitaly and how is that a problem?

Meysam, if you like, I will copy-paste my comment from above into an answer.

Matt Эллен

people with low accept rates get fewer answers

10:41 AM

@DavidWallace It would discourage other users from trying to answer my questions.

@Vitaly That's what sock puppets are for.

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace I like it. Please elaborate more if possible

Matt Эллен

yeah, whenever I ask a question I have a sock puppet say something like "Oh, this question is stupid and no one will be able to answer it!"

it makes me the underdog and gives people a challenge

@Meysamرهادربند OK, I have posted my answer. I believe you can un-accept your original choice and accept mine, if you so choose.

@MattЭллен No, I mean, if User-A's accept rate ends up too low, the person behind User-A can create User-B to ask any further questions, until such time as User-A's questions receive acceptable answers.

Matt Эллен

i see

10:46 AM

@MattЭллен That comment is stupid, and no one will be able to respond to it.

Matt Эллен

lol

Hello

Hello Monica.

Need some advice as always

Matt Эллен

don't we all?

10:47 AM

Monica - I'm all ears.

Could anyone tell me if I need to contact technical support?

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace Is your answer correct?

I still can't accept my replies

My idea of what "acceptable answer" means:

Apr 17 '11 at 20:48, by Vitaly

Also, I doubt it would get a decent answer (one that would cite academic papers and such, instead of hand-waving off it like the textbook authors do)

Apr 17 '11 at 20:53, by Vitaly

The best answer to any question is a bunch of LaTeXed PDFs.

@Monica I think you should contact technical support, yes.

@Meysamرهادربند Do you think I would knowingly post a wrong answer?

10:48 AM

I tried several times, but it didn't work

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace No

@Monica Please contact them. If you don't, people won't want to answer your questions, and then everybody loses. Most of all, it's the future people who have the same questions that you do, who would miss out.

@Meysamرهادربند But you asked me whether I did.

Can you even post questions on the main site with JavaScript disabled?

But everytime I try to send my email it says it can't be sent

What exactly does it say?

10:50 AM

I don't remember

I will try to send once again now

Can you just try posting on the META site? That should come to somebody's attention.

to see what it says

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace I knew your answer was correct. Just wanted to make sure you are aware of the correctness of your answer too.

I will this time

@Meysamرهادربند It must be correct. It's been accepted and has an upvote.

10:52 AM

It says; The default mail client is not properly installed

I will post my question on meta

Do you have similar problems sending emails to other people?

Meysam رها در بند

@DavidWallace lol, I don't know what to say, I give up :D

No, I don't

How about clicking mailto: links on web pages?

mailto?

on which web pages?

10:56 AM

Sometimes when you see an email address on a web page, it looks like a link; and when you hover over it, you see something like mailto:some.address@gmail.com or similar.

Meysam رها در بند

Are both the following questions correct?
I know what is better for you.
I know what better is for you.

Matt Эллен

@Meysamرهادربند neither is a question

There's one on blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/04/changes-to-stack-exchange - about 1/6 of the way down the page.

Search for "Robert" on that page.

Matt Эллен

@Meysamرهادربند the second's phrasing is unusual, it make better into a noun

Meysam رها در بند

@MattЭллен I don't know why I called them question

10:59 AM

@Monica - What happens for you if you go to w3schools.com/html/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml_mailto and click the blue underlined "Send Mail", on the right hand side?

@DavidWallace “She is a girl of a sunny disposition.” via CGEL

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