English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

00:05

@StoneyB: I believe you are mistaken. This is not about art or law: it is from a lecture on moral philosophy. There is no technical or other jargon here. This is a fine question. — Cerberus 9 secs ago

So where are you all?

tchrist

Getting ready for bed. The sun is almost gone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Does Stoney's answer on S-V agreement make sense to you?

@tchrist: wait: theres's a question about plurality!

Cerberus

@tchrist You don't say, I hadn't noticed!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2

Q: S-V agreement: It is not clear what is/are meant by A and B

In the following sentence, the verb “are” strikes me as odd. In paragraph 6, it is not clear what are meant by “the front unit” and “the central element”. It seems that “. . . it is not clear what is meant by . . .” would be more natural. However, thinking more about it and flipping the...

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not so much

Cerberus

00:10

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Make sense, yes: be correct, no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

not so much?

@Cerberus I agree but can't explain why, aside from "I would never say that, and I know my grammar"

tchrist

Sunset in exactly one minute. Too tired.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

a'ight. good night then.

I find zero hits for "what are meant by" in COCA.

That must be clear evidence that nobody would say that, right?

Cerberus

0

A: S-V agreement: It is not clear what is/are meant by A and B

You are correct: it should be is. The writer perhaps mistakenly treated by “the front unit” and “the central element” as the subject, which in fact is singular what. The by phrase is an adverbial constituent of instrument or similar. Now it could be argued that what should be plural in this clau...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Evidence at least.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you want corpus links: what is meant by, what are meant by

you can make your answer more awesome

Cerberus

00:20

I don't know.

I don't think the frequencies are disputed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If someone thought it was grammatical, surely it'd be in the COCA?

Cerberus

It could be British.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, if NOBODY says it it must not be right.

it's not in the BNC either

And I am the Canadian corpus, and I say it's not here either.

Cerberus

Hehe.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 google.com/…

It is used.

I don't feel stylistic advice should reply on numbers too much.

A relative frequency of 100 to 1 doesn't mean 1 is wrong, 's what I mean.

Noöne claimed we should use what are meant by exclusively instead of what is meant by.

Mitch

0

A: Why do eleven and twelve get unique words and not end in 'teen'?

The thing of "Dubbing numbers unique names up till 12(twelve) and no further" may have also been influenced by the number of times you see a full moon during a year. You cannot precisely tell whether it has or hasn't been a full year just by observing seasons. But you can tell one year's time qui...

KitFox

00:29

@Mitch Germans.

Mitch

Yes, enlightening. About the question though, I'm not sure

@KitFox Genau.

Cerberus

> Enlightening, isn't it!

Very.

Mitch

I really thought he was about to go off on why the days of the qeek are ordered as such, instead of the order of distance from the Sun.

Because, obviously, and enlighteningly...

Cerberus

leans in to listen closely

stumbles

overturns your plate

Sorry.

Mitch

@KitFox You think DMC is teutonic?

crap. peas -everywhere-.

KitFox

00:33

@Mitch What now?

Cerberus

> As for the situation in French language

Could be French.

KitFox

What? No way.

It's the Germans. It's always the Germans.

Cerberus

> Enlightening, isn't it!

Mitch

@KitFox You said 'Germans' in reference to the eleven/twelve question. The true answer is 'because that's the way people say it', but the next best answer is, that's the way Germans say it. Is that what you're saying? I can't see your arched disparaging eyebrow at my earnestness here. This internet thingy isn't -that- good.

@KitFox It's the Germans

KitFox

@Mitch I. Don't think I. What? What do you mean by DMC?

Cerberus

00:36

With your help, we taught them a lesson.

Mitch

@Cerberus wiping spagetti sauce of of front of white shirt

KitFox

@Mitch Oh! The answerer.

Now I get it.

Mitch

@KitFox Initials of the poster of that goofball answer.

I'd blame the French too. You know how they are.

Cerberus

@Mitch So sorry, but I haven't the money to buy you a new one.

KitFox

@Mitch There's no point in blaming the French.

Mitch

00:37

@Cerberus Buy? that stain will never come out.

@KitFox Touche.

Cerberus

So not buy?

Mitch

or rather Too shay

not buy. will wash in hot water with new red plush towel. will wear pink shirt to grammy's. much swooning will be exhibited.

Cerberus

Such a relief.

Journeyman Geek

lol

Cerberus

Although it looks orange rather than pink.

Mitch

00:40

I'll mention you in my acceptance speech.

Journeyman Geek

mauve

its french for punkassugly

Cerberus

I demand that you pay me for copyright and patents, then.

Mitch

'tangerine' is what they'll call it.

Cerberus

Like the woman who messed up that fresco?

Mitch

@Cerberus check is being written as I type.

Cerberus

00:40

Thank you ever so much.

Mitch

@Cerberus that was tangerine colored?

Cerberus

No, it was messed up, and she wanted money from the church it was in for copyright.

Mitch

definition of 'chutzpah'

Cerberus

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/9555526/…

Definition is immoral and lunatic.

Mitch

I've seen all the before and after pictures.

frankly...

OK it'll probably be obvious I'm not an art historian, but the fix, though not particularly appealing, wasn't that much worse than the original.

Cerberus

00:44

> "She just wants the church to conform to the law," lawyer Enrique Trebolle said.

Mitch

i.e. 'my kid brother could probably have done as good a job as the original'.

Cerberus

@Mitch How dare you!

Video or it didn't happen.

Mitch

@Cerberus Now that's trolling!

Cerberus

NOU

Mitch

@Cerberus video shmideo, it's my well-founded opinion (because I am a well founded person).

oh about the theory of the days of the week...

Cerberus

00:45

Are you, now?

Mitch

so if you take the order of the (classic, traditional) celestial bodies by distance from the earth, and label the -hours- of the day, moon, venus mercury, sun, mars, jupiter, saturn, and keep cycling through them for all 168 hours of the week, then the name of the day of the week is given by the label on the first hour of each day.

3

@JourneymanGeek mauve, fuchsia, or puce all vomit ugly, but I can't get those rich deep colors through a bad washing.

hmmm... considering the vomit strategy

Cerberus

@Mitch Brain. Explodes.

Mitch

It won't explode properly until you check for real. also in checking you'll probably figure out that I messed up the order of the (classically figured) distance of the planets from the earth

think the matching is true, but I seriously doubt that who ever did the original naming really did that.

KitFox

@Mitch I did, thank you very much. I put a lot of work into that.

Mitch

@Cerberus Oh Ah! Brains... hat's what I need to fix the color! Thank you thank you.

@KitFox really, and it worked out?

KitFox

00:54

@Mitch Well, that's how everyone does it, innit?

You think it's easy to come up with a sensible day-naming convention for illiterate people?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus pish. Google itself thinks it's dumb

> Did you mean: "what is meant by"

Cerberus

@Mitch It's draining the blood that's always such a fuss, isn't it?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes! Let's take Google's suggestions for style advice!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't consider it a matter of style. I consider it ungrammatical.

Cerberus

I'm getting a déjà-vu.

The two categories are one to me, varying only in degree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Look, it's one thing if both uses exist; then clearly both are grammatical. But not a single hit in either COCA or BNC is a pretty clear nail in the coffin of one of those.

KitFox

00:58

Is there even a question really?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I gave you the link to Google Books.

KitFox

"What is meant by" = "what is the meaning of" You wouldn't say "what are the meaning of."

Mitch

@Cerberus I don't know what you're talking about. It's the shards of splintered bone and muzzle that are the hardest to deal with.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A relative frequency between two constructions that nobody claims could ever overlap 100 % means very little.

Mitch

@KitFox yeah, it's a total dupe question, which I haven't yet found...yet.

KitFox

00:59

@Reg would know. He knows them all.

Of course, he's probably asleep.

Mitch

@Cerberus Cripes, You and your google hating. I bet you don't like Apple either.

@KitFox stupid sleeping.

cerb is up, same time zone and all.

Cerberus

Although what are the meaning of is sometimes used, I find it odd and contrary to certain stylistic rules of grammar. I don't know about any other arguments.

@Mitch Oh, no, I do anything Siri tells me.

KitFox

I have never heard "what are the meaning of."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The Google books link bears out the fact that essentially nobody uses it. It's worth noting that most of those uses are from the 1800s

KitFox

That's just @Cerb making stuff up so he can argue.

Cerberus

01:02

I still got thousands of hits from the 20th century.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Check the ngrams

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A relative frequency between two constructions that nobody claims could ever overlap 100 % means very little.

Mitch

@Cerberus that voice! yes, Yes! I'll turn directly into that ditch after cutting off someone crossing two lanes of traffic!

Cerberus

Nobody claims you should what are... always.

Mitch

@KitFox But!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:03

@Cerberus Fine, just look at one of the frequencies, "what are meant by". You'll see that it is declining.

Cerberus

@Mitch Haha absolutely!

KitFox

1 min ago, by KitFox

That's just @Cerb making stuff up so he can argue.

Mitch

That's not the sentence. It's "what is/are meant by A and B'

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can see that, yes.

Mitch

hm... that's idiotic. it's 'is'.

KitFox

01:03

Yes.

Mitch

People just asking an idiotic question make you doubt things.

When is google telepathy coming out?

KitFox

Gotta go. Later.

Mitch

which we will mostly use to go into people's heads and say 'just shut up' or 'fix your damn typos already'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Google already knows

9 mins ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Did you mean: "what is meant by"

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's google clairvoyance. you really should get your taxonomy of non-existent things straight.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:06

@Mitch I want Google to be able to tell me where I left my car-keys.

Cerberus

> Moreover, the phrase what is meant is almost universally used in the singular and could be said to be idiomatically fixed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus see, if you had only posted those coca links, Bill Franke wouldn't have spouted off with all that nonsense from a style book.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I've had the distinct desire to be able to call up my car keys to beep them so I can hear which couch or bag they are hidden in.

Cerberus

What nonsense?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Didn't you see how he berates you for "providing no evidence"? and then goes on to post pages and pages of alternate ways to reword the sentence? Then, almost as a post-script, says "you can go with is, trust me, I did an ngrams search but didn't give you a link"

Mitch

01:08

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 hm... style book. They do have grammar to in them right? Like Chicago Manual of Style? Or Fowlers?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 He's a Chomsky fan.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Like "The Elements of Style"?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 it's because he's right.

Cerberus

I rest my case.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 elements of style is too short to have grammar (or much)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:09

@Mitch But most of his answer was unneeded, and then the rest was essentially the same as Cerb's, only more verbiage.

Cerberus

Fowler really knew what he was talking about.

Mitch

exec summary..'be simple'

Cerberus

All style books are like that.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm having a hard time saying that correctly anymore ever since the 'verbage' incident.

@Cerberus Here's my style book:

'Be simple'

done. where's my check?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I don't ever say it. I only type it here, in order to appear more erudite.

Cerberus

01:10

@Mitch Is it in a pretty cover?

Mitch

It's a simple cover.

Obviously.

Black.

or puce.

Cerberus

Is it is same section as the book "What Men Think About Besides Sex"?

Mitch

sprinkled with skull shards.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So my my wife is looking over my shoulder and she says "Your conversations are so boring and nit-picky".

Mitch

for the rougher look.

Cerberus

01:11

Haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I said, "You should see it when that guy tchrist is here!"

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 she mispronounced 'nit-picky'

Cerberus

What if we just prefer the taste of nits to bacon and such?

Mitch

there's a lot of cholesterol in nits.

tell her that.

Cerberus

Is there, indeed?

Mitch

01:12

@Cerberus duh.

Cerberus

Good or bad cholesterol?

Mitch

argh! I don't know!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If she catches me eating nits, she won't let me kiss her

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

she says she'll make me wash my mouth with anti-lice shampoo

Cerberus

01:13

Doesn't she know you eat 1.7 spiders on average during a night's sleep?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but they do have lots of protein, and enerrgy per weight. but you have to find a lot.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. That's not good. bad aftertaste.

Cerberus

The picking must never stop!

Mitch

worse than drinking orange juice after mint toothpaste.

Cerberus

Are nits susceptible to lice shampoo?

@Mitch Oh, yes!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus She says "that is the worst thing you could possibly say! I sleep with my mouth closed and I would never eat a spider! God! Besides, my husband will eat more spiders to keep up the average."

Cerberus

01:14

@Mitch That tastes like...metal.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha. Tell her it is a myth anyway: it's not at all true.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "Better not be."

Cerberus

She can rest assured.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and hungry, too

Cerberus

Yes, alas.

Can't have it all.

Did you make her eat lego steak for dinner again?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, I mean, on account of not eating all those spiders.

Mahnax

01:16

Hi.

Cerberus

I know.

Hi!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yo

Mahnax

How are you all doing?

Cerberus

Look who's watching is, it's Mss Shiny!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

er, Mrs.

she's not actually watching right now

Mitch

01:17

what other disgusting facts can we make up to troll mrs shiny?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

she's "window" shopping online

Mitch

you can yell across the room.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I will, if you come up with a good one

Mitch

OK...how about...

did you know...

that...

animals...

let's say...

bears...

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oops typo.

Mitch

01:19

no. something cute but exotic...

koala bears!...

eat...

Cerberus

Mitch. You disappoint me.

Mitch

their...

Cerberus

Sex with koala bears? Really?

Mitch

own...

Mahnax

@Cerberus Eww.

Mitch

01:20

children? poop? cuticles?

Mahnax

covers eyes

Cerberus

@Mahnax Indeed!

Mitch

Cuticles!

Cerberus

I expected larger animals.

Mitch

theyre so ..._cute_

koalas suffering from gigantism?

Cerberus

01:20

Right.

Is it time for your meds yet?

Mitch

well...

I forgot if I took them. so I took them again. then I forgot again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm sure she'll just roll her eyes if I tell her that koalas suffering from gigantism eat their own cuticles.

Mitch

It;s all coming back to me.

Cerberus

Why don't we go to the medication room to take our meds, huh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wait: where do YOU go?

Cerberus

01:22

Nurse's plural.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh oho ho...'if you keep rolling your eyes like that...'

It's in wikipedia! must be true!

Cerberus

It must! I didn't jut put it there, I swear!

Mitch

@Cerberus You go to the nurse's plural to take your meds? that is -some- euphemism.

Cerberus

No no no.

To think that I only drank half a beer, and it was hours ago.

Mitch

If you keep rolling your eyes, well, it really is good exercise for your eye control muscles. but, you'll atrophy your looking down to read muscles, and you'll have to wear prism glasses to read just like the astronauts.

Shit. She's rolling her eyes now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:25

Hm, I already wear prism glasses

Cerberus

Haha.

Two prismata => one ehm diamond-shaped body.

Mitch

Oh. Worse. no response at all. But if you repeat it enough, it'll wear her down. At some point she will audibly sigh. Then you will have one.

Cerberus

Sighing muscles must be exercised, 'tis true.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

She just says "I don't want to hear it."

Cerberus

I heard so myself at the baker's.

Mitch

01:27

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 small victories

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 excellent! did she cut you off: "Honey, they said" "Nope, don't want to hear it."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch No, it was even faster. I laughed out loud, and she said "Don't want to hear it."

Mitch

@Cerberus hm.. suspicious. How would the baker know?

Cerberus

That's nice. Next time, tape it.

@Mitch I didn't say I heard it from the baker.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Mission accomplished! now we can discuss whatever we want!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch oops, Guess I shouldn't have read that last line out loud

Mitch

01:29

@Cerberus ok.. what's an 'ehm'?

Cerberus

Hard to explain.

Mitch

unit of measurement?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 God. You're such a bad cheater.

@Mitch Is a unit of measurement round?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So my daughter wrote this in school (she's 4)

Mitch

@Cerberus It does sound like it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:32

I'm so proud of her! It's her first work of zombie fiction!

Mitch

hunh. I can't read it, but I can't read my own handwriting either.

Cerberus

Uhh...Oh!

A somby, of course!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It says "Therisazomby inmyyard not inmy frant inmybac"

@Cerberus well, that's a Z, but backwards

Cerberus

Oh haha.

I see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

She's only 4... she still needs to practice the uncommon letters :)

Cerberus

01:33

How precocious!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm so proud of her

oh, I already said that

Cerberus

I only learned the letters when I was 5 or 6.

Mitch

that's kinda scary. seriously. has she seen Shawn of the dead? you know a zombie comedy, so all the shooting in peoples faces gets assuaged.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, I'm not sure she even knows what a zombie is.

She almost never watches any TV.

Cerberus

Good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:34

Anything more advanced than "Dora the explorer" is usually too scary for her.

well, s/scary/emotional/

she empathizes too much with the protagonist

Mitch

I remember being terribly frightened by 'the wizard of Oz' at 6

I had to leave the room.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it has some frightening scenes

if you don't find the costumes too comical

I can't wait for her to watch Star Wars, so she can finally understand what a Millennium Falcon is, if not why Daddy won't let her play with his lego falcon.

Cerberus

@Mitch I had to leave the room when a certain episode of My Little Pony was on.

About this stone dog called Crumbs or something.

Man, he was scary.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I remember watching a tv show where two muppets at the end were transformed into monkeys in a science-experiment gone wrong. I was at least 6 years old. It freaked me out so much I ran away and cried for half an hour.

Cerberus

And he had these skull-like rocks that fought for him too!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

01:38

Then my mom brought in a Time-Life book about monkeys and we agreed that monkeys weren't that scary after all.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Cry baby.

Mitch

I've tried to do research on the insect/cholesteraol thing. My findings...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The thing was, I wasn't usually. Just that one time.

Mitch

are that it's hard to find findings.

anyway, insects don't get heart disease from high levels of cholesterol because...

they don't have hearts! duh.

Meaning I knew that, but I had to read it to realize it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heheh

well, I have to go

cya later folks

Mitch

01:40

later

           - just a test to see if it 'trims' entries

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Bai!

►

Mitch

no. I will not follow that link.

Cerberus

Tell me again Crunch the Rock Dog isn't dead scary!

Click it!

You won't regret it!

Mitch

that image is already scary.

Cerberus

Nah.

@Mitch They don't, are you sue?

Mitch

01:44

OMG that is pretty...if not scary...manipulative of fear.

they all have tattoos on their butts.

and there are non-horse people in it too.

Cerberus

Haha.

Yes, the tattoos are scary!

Man, I can totally understand how this scared me.

Mitch

tasteful...but really?

Cerberus

First time I've watched this in 20+ years.

Mitch

02:10

later!

Cerberus

02:22

@Mitch You leaving?

I just watched the new Thundercats.

It's pretty cool.

A bit less cheesy than the version I grew up with.

Which was very cool, of course.

►

Amitd

05:23

hi guys

Noah

06:28

Hi

Amitd

06:42

hi

need help with phrasing words

i have an application that fetches data.. It has feature setting that allows it to retrieve old data

example getting data for past 10 days etc

How can i describe the setting in user manual

Setting x (duration) - Specifies how old data is retrieved .. doesn't seem right.. duration is in days

allows the application to get data from past x days but not older

Cerberus

07:03

@Amitd This is how Gmail does it on my phone.

You could make it "days of data to synch" or something. Or "fetch data from the past x days".

Amitd

ah nice idea

Cerberus

Good luck!

I'm off to bed.

Amitd

thx

Cerberus

Bye.

Matt Эллен

08:24

Hi!

user19161

08:35

@MattЭллен Boo! Are you having the Monday blues?

Matt Эллен

probably, it is monday, after all

user19161

Why is there no flash on Android?

RegDwighт

-1

Q: Is my usage of words correct? PART-1

This is the first of the many questions i will be posting, with similar titles, as I work on improving my vocabulary. I believe my posts will be useful for everyone. The highlighted words in the following sentences are the new words i've recently learned Handing a taffy to his younger sister is ...

meaning-in-context words

Oh this is fun.

And still no Generalist badges?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…