English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

7:04 PM

I don't think we've had this combo before...

Simple past vs. past perfect is extremely popular, but not this.

When I first saw the title I only skimmed it... and thought it was very philosophical: What is the difference betw... ...and Being?

When I read again to fill in the blank I was disappointed

RegDwight

157

Philosophy

Proposed Q&A site for those interested in logical reasoning.

Currently in commitment.

This is the place to voice all your disappointments.

psmears

Heh

RegDwight

I like how it equates philosophy with logical reasoning.

If philosophy = logical reasoning, then a) there can be only one, and b) you don't need a site, just use logic.

Vitaly

@RegDwight Word. Mainstream philosophy is rubbish. It should be like, “OK, naturalism/materialism is correct. MOVE ON.” Instead, they're engaging in endless status games.

RegDwight

7:19 PM

In unrelated news, I like how @kiamlaluno got flagged by the Community for "possible vandalism of own posts".

I mean, at 15k rep he should know that it's only okay to vandalize others' stuff.

psmears

Haven't we had some actual cases of own-post-vandalism?

RegDwight

Yes, quite recently in fact.

psmears

Admittedly by users much closer to the other end of the rep scale...

RegDwight

Well, the user in question would be somewhere around 2k had he not spent it all on bounties.

psmears

Indeed, that was the one I was thinking of

RegDwight

7:25 PM

Well, he did it on Cooking, too.

cooking.stackexchange.com/posts/4708/revisions

cooking.stackexchange.com/posts/6574/revisions

psmears

That's just... odd.

Cerberus

Philosophy seems to be well on track to beta?

RegDwight

The graph's looking promising.

Cerberus

Indeed.

For me, philosophy is more like "critical thinking not depending on original empirical research".

Anyone have a better definition?

RegDwight

I'm sure Wikipedia has come up with something.

Philosophy

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument. The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom". Branches of philosophy The following branches are the main areas of study * Metaphysics is the study of the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and body, substan...

Cerberus

7:38 PM

Yeah.

RegDwight

Doesn't sound that bad.

Cerberus

It wants us to consider "broad" questions; I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. That is, surely this is how most people view it, but I find a philosophical approach may also be applied to little things.

RegDwight

Whoa, I just noticed that they have finally implemented this:

7

Q: Area51 Commitment Progress Bars

Could we have 3 progress bars right underneath that huge percentage (19%) on the right of this page? Each of the progress bars could represent the minimum requirements for beta launch: A total Commitment Score of 500, 200 committers 100 committers with at least 200 rep on a single si...

That's... a huge time sink for me.

Cerberus

Hmm I think I have seen bars some time ago?

Oh, you spent time calculating progress phases yourself?

RegDwight

Mar 15 at 18:54, by Robusto

@RegDwight Hmm ... are you sure about Stats? Certain moderators around here seem to fetishize data to an alarming degree.

Cerberus

7:41 PM

I see.

But is the time sink historical or potential?

RegDwight

Potential.

Cerberus

Good.

RegDwight

Now I have to click through 5000+ proposals and check the stats. Every day. Sigh.

Cerberus

That's life.

RegDwight

And "some time ago" is a lie unless you mean "in the past three days".

[status-completed] April 12th.

There he is, the vandal!

kiamlaluno

7:45 PM

@RegDwight Ahah! It happened on DA too, even before I reached 2K.

RegDwight

You are vandalizing so many sites, it's hard to keep up!

kiamlaluno

If just somebody would have told me first!

So many sites to vandalize, and so few time.

RegDwight

Well, at your rep level you should know!

kiamlaluno

Yes, but I could think I am dreaming it. :-)

RegDwight

I just got a brilliant idea. Let's create a Vandals.SE where all the trolls of the world can be locked away.

How's that for "making the Internet a better place for everyone"?

kiamlaluno

7:49 PM

A confirm from somebody else would help, in such cases; at least it would show that I am not the only one to dream.

I can write a Drupal module for that, if it can help.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno I am sorry to inform you, but not every problem can be solved with Drupal.

Cerberus

I am sure I have seen progress bars for beta etc. stages of those sites long ago.

No idea where or on what page.

kiamlaluno

Wasn't that "not every problem can be resolved with Internet"?

RegDwight

@Cerberus That's a different thing altogether, d'oh.

Cerberus

I never bother to understand this tangle. That must be it.

RegDwight

7:51 PM

area51.stackexchange.com

You mean these?

Cerberus

Yes.

Probably.

Those aren't new, are they?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Which of the three heads is speaking? ;-)

Cerberus

The crazy one.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Them's as old as the site itself.

Cerberus

Told you so!

RegDwight

7:53 PM

They tweaked the appearance a few times, though.

Cerberus

It is always good to know that one is right.

RegDwight

But you are not.

Those bars don't show all that information.

Hm. I like how Personal Finance and Money has been in beta for 255 days.

Those guys never plan to mature?

Cerberus

A hopeless cause.

Should I commit to "parenting"?

Would be funny.

RegDwight

The funny thing is, they didn't even have to start from scratch! It got seeded with content from a hugely popular SE1.0 site.

Cerberus

Then they suck.

kiamlaluno

7:55 PM

Does parenting yourself count as parenting?

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Morphologically? Yes.

Cerberus

It does if you have caused yourself to be.

I can see we are on different sites.

RegDwight

Feb 17 at 19:07, by RegDwight

I'm on all sites 24/7.

Cerberus

And yet your answer lacks philosophical poise.

But perhaps it does not count as a site yet.

RegDwight

I have always wondered, and I'm saying this as a Christian, why the hell didn't God create a female companion for himself first?

Then again, he might be wiser than I am.

Cerberus

7:57 PM

Yes, it is strange.

kiamlaluno

Because it would have been a hell?

Cerberus

The Greek Gods usually had female companions.

RegDwight

And not too few!

Cerberus

Chronos has Rhea, Ouranos had Gaia.

RegDwight

Zeus went to great lengths to mutate into an ant just to bang some chick.

kiamlaluno

7:58 PM

Let's not talk of Zeus.

Cerberus

Well, the older generations could still do with only one.

Vitaly

Yahweh and Asherah?

Cerberus

Zeus would do anyone, be it man or woman.

Vitaly

Asherah

Asherah (Ugaritic: 𐎀𐎘𐎗𐎚 : 'ṯrt; ), in Semitic mythology, is a Semitic mother goddess, who appears in a number of ancient sources including Akkadian writings by the name of Ashratum/Ashratu and in Hittite as Asherdu(s) or Ashertu(s) or Aserdu(s) or Asertu(s). Asherah is generally considered identical with the Ugaritic goddess Athirat (more accurately transcribed as ). The Book of Jeremiah written circa 628 BC possibly refers to Asherah when it uses the title "queen of heaven" () in Jer 7:18 and Jer 44:17–19, 25. (For a discussion of "queen of heaven" in the Hebrew Bible, see Queen ...

Cerberus

Be it sibling or stranger.

kiamlaluno

8:00 PM

Uhmmm... Windows 7 doesn't show Unicode characters.

Cerberus

Oh, to whom it may concern, I found a sentence of the type "eat is what I do" yesterday in a real book.

Hah, doesn't it? I knew it!

Vitaly

El (the Judeo-Christian god) in pre-Hebrew religion actually had a goddess consort, Asherah.

Cerberus

My old XP laptop does show all unicode I throw at it, by the way.

Vitaly

It was only later that Asherah got to be demonized by people who wanted their One True Religion, Judaism, which later evolved into Christianity.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Some characters are just too strange. Like Gothic or Hittite, or Ugaritic in this case.

Cerberus

8:01 PM

The Jews destroyed the divine family? Christian Democrats aren't going to be happy about this, the cornerstone of society...

RegDwight

Feb 23 at 15:52, by Kosmonaut

Cerberus

I can see all those cuneiform characters in the Asherah article, by the way, on my computer that can't display the angry face.

RegDwight

@Cerberus To each his own, I guess.

Vitaly

On a related note, I have recently watched BBC: Bible's Buried Secrets, which I recommend to anyone who is interested in what archaeology and history have to say about the Bible.

RegDwight

I'm always interested in that stuff.

Vitaly

8:05 PM

You, as a Christian, might not want to watch it, though. ;)

Cerberus

Aww.

RegDwight

I've seen a zillion such documentaries already.

Just because I wear a cross doesn't mean I'm ignorant.

Vitaly

And you're still a Christian?

RegDwight

2 mins ago, by RegDwight

@Cerberus To each his own, I guess.

Vitaly

I can't possibly imagine how anyone could remain a Christian when knowing the origins of their religion (which are clearly human, as evidenced in archaeology, history, and what not).

Cerberus

8:06 PM

By the way, your zeal is not excessively great, as I have never noticed it before.

Or have I been converted already by devious means...

RegDwight

@Vitaly I can't possibly imagine how anyone could remain on the Internet when knowing its origins.

Cerberus

Well, Vitaly, can you still love your mother even though you know how hormones work, and procreation?

Vitaly

So it's your social identification?

RegDwight

My social identification is an owl.

Cerberus

Can you still will things even though you know there is no free will?

Can you still be moral even though you know morality is an evolutionary side-effect?

RegDwight

8:09 PM

We get the idea.

Cerberus

Too bad, I would go on.

RegDwight

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

Aww.

Cerberus

I know I can be cute.

At least the left head can be.

kiamlaluno

("Criminal minds" and chat on EL&U; it's a good mix.)

RegDwight

I just realized that it's easier for me to find a quote of "aww" than to type the three characters. I have achieved nirvana.

Vitaly

8:11 PM

Ok, let me rephrase my question. Is your Christianity a belief that makes you anticipate experiences? As an example, belief in gravity makes you anticipate that a released apple will fall to the groun. A belief in fire makes you anticipate that you will be burnt if you jump into fire. Would your Christian beliefs make you anticipate that after the death of your brain you would suffer eternally if you've been greedy (one of the 7 deadly sins), or that the first man was created from dirt?

Cerberus

@Reg: Oh dear, what a shock, you like quoting!

Vitaly

Or something along the lines.

kiamlaluno

"The left head doesn't know what the right head does, and both look the middle head."

Cerberus

That might be a naïve depiction of religion, to some people...

RegDwight

@Vitaly Christianity doesn't make me anything. Whether I'm evil or good, an idiot or a genius, the decision is with myself, not with a piece of metal I wear around my neck.

Vitaly

8:14 PM

@RegDwight: but does your belief make you anticipate experiences just like a belief in gravity?

Does it constrain the multitude of possible experiences that could happen to you?

Cerberus

It may predict that one feels bad after lying? Does that count?

Vitaly

Am I that bad at explaining? In any case, the link I provided goes to an article that explains the concept of anticipated experiences rather well.

RegDwight

@Vitaly Sure it does. It predicts that I will get killed in certain regions of the world. That's a very important anticipation to have.

Cerberus

Your argument is quite clear, Vitaly.

Vitaly

No, that prediction comes from a belief that you have Christian beliefs; not from the Christian beliefs themselves. @Reg

Cerberus

8:18 PM

One follows from the other.

kiamlaluno

I have never thought religion should help me in winning lottery.

Cerberus

I you do not believe in certain axioms that you identify as Christian, you will not consider yourself a Christian.

Vitaly

Whatever the following belief predicts is irrelevant. @Cer

Cerberus

Huh? If you consider yourself a Christian, you will probably not want to hide it; and if you meet certain people, they might be hostile towards you. The causal chain and its relevance seem quite clear?

Vitaly

Also, it's not an argument yet, @Cer. I am trying to understand @Reg's understanding of the word “Christianity”

RegDwight

8:21 PM

I have no idea why everybody here is so keen on understanding me.

Cerberus

I thought you were going to say that. But it still feels like the precursor to an argument, and may hence be said to be a preliminary phase of the argument already.

@Reg: Have no fear, I am not!

Vitaly

@Cer, please follow the link.

Cerberus

I just feel very, very argumentative at the moment. I can't help it. Anything you throw at me I have the irresistible urge to subject to critical questions.

RegDwight

Apr 8 at 19:42, by MrHen

@Cerberus Trying to figure out what shows Reg likes

The answer to that is "Reg likes exactly the shows he likes". Use that as a baseline for any further discussion.)))

Cerberus

@Reg: That was not my statement. It was MrHen's. I could care less!

RegDwight

8:24 PM

@Vitaly I have read that post but I have no idea what its point is.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: I know the "falsifiable" argument very well.

psmears

@Vitaly it's not an argument yet Oh yes it is :-p

Cerberus

Hey hey, don't gang up on Vitaly, or I shall have to switch sides.

I am with the underdog.

That is where the most succulent bones of argumentation are to be chewed at.

RegDwight

D'oh. Of course the dog is with the underdog.

Cerberus

D'oh indeed!

Vitaly

8:25 PM

LOL

Cerberus

I am glad Martha is not here.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Hey! I will tell her!

Cerberus

Well, I am actually trying to hide my sadness and sense of emptiness behind a facade of gleeee.

psmears

Oh, I'm not ganging up on anyone... just pointing out that @Vitaly doesn't have to give his consent to be argued with ;-)

RegDwight

Hm. I don't think I am arguing with Vitaly.

Cerberus

8:26 PM

Yeah in fact I think Vitaly is not altogether allergic to argumentation in general...

RegDwight

It's more like a Q&A session. Which is what this site is all about.

Cerberus

Nor am I.

psmears

@RegDwight I wasn't suggesting that you were :)

Cerberus

Oh.

But I want argumentation.

RegDwight

@Cerberus You wanted your language topic, you got it. You're out of wishes for today, ~~sir~~ dog.

Cerberus

8:28 PM

What? When did I get my topic?

I don't recall any lengthy language session.

RegDwight

Pre vs de? It went on for quite some time.

Oh, that.

Yes, that.

Well that was OKish.

Thank you kind ~~sir~~ you know what.

Cerberus

8:29 PM

It could have been lengthier, and more technical. But I suppose I mustn't complain: children in Africa have even less, supposedly.

Vitaly

I was going to say something about Ancient Hebrew and Genesis when you mentioned languages, but decided I couldn't be bothered.

RegDwight

BTW, would you please have your Sylvie van der Vaart back? I'm not going to ask you again!

Cerberus

Why don't we strike a deal and dump her in some French ditch? The frogs are our common nemesis, aren't they?

RegDwight

That reminds me that I haven't seen @F'x for a whle.

Cerberus

Vitaly: do not hesitate to bring up a Greek or Latin subject if you feel so inclined!

Yes, where is the garlic eater?

I have been watching Gooische Vrouwen, made and starred by Linda de Mol, and it is actually quite fun.

RegDwight

8:32 PM

@Cerberus Be aware of the rules, though.

Mar 27 at 1:29, by RegDwight

Nobody may post any additional Latin sentences until everybody's memorized those already posted.

Cerberus

Oh.

I thought this only applied to those with morals, i.e. the religious?

Vitaly

I am not an expert in those either, @Cer. However, I have enjoyed books by Bart D. Ehrman, in which there is a reasonable volume of Greek.

RegDwight

@Cerberus It doesn't apply to you anyway, if that's what you mean, because you've memorized all of Latin already.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: Pretty good. You may cite his Greek at will.

RegDwight

And don't bother answering, I'll do that on your behalf.

Mar 27 at 1:31, by Cerberus

@Reg: Thanks but I wish.

Cerberus

8:34 PM

@Reg: My Greek sucks.

Whose doesn't?

Meh.

My foot is hitching.

@kiamlaluno is kinda fluent in kinda Greek.

Cerberus

I even skipped a sentence of Plato this week when I was trying to explain it to a girl I was tutoring, because I really didn't get it.

RegDwight

8:35 PM

@kiamlaluno You mean your armpit is itching?

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight No. Nobody has said anything funny.

RegDwight

@Cerberus It was probably saying, "Don't believe Socrates' lies!"

Vitaly

On a tangentially related note, is there any easier way to input not-very-widespread characters than custom keyboard layouts? I am using two custom keyboard layouts and a simple Autoit script. The latter lets me press a hot key, enter the name of a character I want in English—e.g. ‘alef’ or ‘rune-eihwaz’—and it will paste it into the active window; but it's just too slow.

Cerberus

It was something about a man having sex with a boy and a simile with echoes and redounding waters. Neither of wanted to know.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight That depends on what you mean by kinda. If having a girlfriend who has Greek roots counts, then I am kinda fluent.

Vitaly

8:37 PM

Using the character palette is even more tedious.

Cerberus

@Vit: Use auto-replace strings in Autohotkey. For example, when I type --qq, I type an n-dash, no extra pressed or whatever required.

RegDwight

I wonder if Super User has any recommendations.

kiamlaluno

The problem is that she speaks Calabrian, or American. :-)

RegDwight

9

Q: Insert Unicode characters via the keyboard?

I am familiar with inserting an ASCII character into a text document by using 'Alt+ASCII code' on the NumPad keys (e.g. Alt+130 inserts an é character). Is there a similar way to insert a Unicode character via the keyboard using the unicode value given in Windows Character Map?

windows-7 windows characters

Cerberus

When I type o-=-, it types ō.

Vitaly

8:39 PM

Well, I was going to add lists and templates to that script window, and I will probably do it some time, so I'd like to keep the extra hot key so far, but good suggestion. @Cer

I use the custom keyboard layouts for combining diacritic marks.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: I find that strings are both easy to remember, non-interfering, and quick to type.

Vitaly

When I type Alt+2, o it types ö

Cerberus

e,, is €

Vitaly

And all the numbers 1 through 0 are for diacritic marks

RegDwight

You need a custom layout for that? nodeadkeys doesn't cut it? Or are we talking Windows?

Cerberus

8:40 PM

Hey I think we have had this discussion before as well.

Vitaly

I think so too. :D

RegDwight

@Cerberus At least twice. On my watch.

Vitaly

I'm using Windows.

Cerberus

I also think strings are much faster than holding modifer keys.

@Reg: True.

But hey Vitaly started it.

RegDwight

He invaded Poland?

Cerberus

8:42 PM

One more thing: how do you remember what those numbers do? Remembering that, say, e\/ does ĕ is much easier.

@Reg: Who didn't.

Vitaly

So the Autohotkey feature doesn't interfere with regular typing, @Cer? What if I want to type just that, “e,,”?

@Cerberus No idea, it seems pretty much natural.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Indonesia.

Cerberus

You need to consider which strings you will never have to type. I often add two q's; for example, dateqq gives me the current date: 10:43 PM 4/16/2011

@Reg: But it would like to!

RegDwight

@Cerberus You're better informed than me. Dutch intelligence.

Vitaly

On the plus side, with that script, I am forced to memorize proper English names for the characters.

I could even learn the Hebrew alphabet that way.

RegDwight

8:45 PM

That's a nifty trick. Can't learn Hebrew? Just force yourself to!

Cerberus

@Reg: Yeah. We never got over losing them. We have a saying, Indië verloren, rampspoed geboren. (Vitaly, notice the trema!)

The Indies lost, disaster born.

RegDwight

Rampspoed. Rampspoed. Rampspoed. Röm-pöm-pöm-pöm.

I like it!

Cerberus

@Vitaly: If you like that way, make an AHK string and do it like alephqq?

Vitaly

alef

Cerberus

Yes, rampspoed is quite the dramatic word.

Vitaly

8:47 PM

אבגדהותמנ

meh

Cerberus

Use whichever spelling you prefer. AHK will even let you use misspelled words if you so desire. Isn't that great?

Besides, I don't understand why you even bother with Hebrew, as it is an inconsequential language for non-monotheïsts.

Vitaly

Well, sometimes it pays off when you talk to Christians.

For example, the Sh'ma, which Jesus called the most important commandment according to Mark (and Matthew, who didn't quote the first part of the Sh'ma, what a blasphemy!).

RegDwight

@Cerberus fen-net.de/christian.scholz/lecture/Jandl1.htm

Cerberus

Why talk to them? They do not understand the world, nor can they comprehend their future experiences.

True, that.

8:49 PM

You can get a good laugh, though.

Cerberus

Haha.

Vitaly

Anyway, I memorized the Sh'ma letter-by-letter: shin-mem-ayin yod-shin-resh-alef-lamed yod-he-vav-he alef-lamed-he-yod-nun-vav yod-he-vav-he alef-het-dalet

*rolls eyes

Cerberus

You look ready for AHK strings!

kiamlaluno

It seems the protagonist of "Der Commisarien."

Vitaly

8:51 PM

Notice that yod-he-vav-he stands for Yahweh.

Cerberus

Silly Semites.

Vitaly

Which is loosely represented in the English translations of the Bible as ‘God’.

RegDwight

@Vitaly Now try to memorize that Jandl poem.

Vitaly

And that's in the New Testament.

kiamlaluno

"She sells sea shells by the sea shore."

Vitaly

8:52 PM

amazon.com/Blah-Story-10-Nigel-Tomm/dp/1419693611

And an excerpt from this literary work is quoted here: theblahstory.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/…

RegDwight

@Vitaly Hahaha. "One customer review: waste of paper"

7 of 8 people found the review helpful!

Cerberus

Has anyone read the book "what men think about when they are not thinking about sex"?

RegDwight

Yeah. That one really was a waste of paper.

Cerberus

amazon.com/Every-Thinks-About-Apart-Inside/dp/0956827810

RegDwight

It's a national bestseller in several countries, IIRC.

Cerberus

8:55 PM

I heard it sold very well, was the author's best selling book to date.

Jinx!

RegDwight

Here,s your 7up.

Cerberus

?

RegDwight

Whoa, how did I do that upside-down apostrophe?

Cerberus

Freakih!

You are a magician.

Vitaly

rob-matthews.com/index.php?/project/wikipedia

Cerberus

8:56 PM

On a serious note, I really don't understand what people find to interesting about modern art like the book above.

RegDwight

@Vitaly Haha. That deserves to be inlined.

Vitaly

And those are only the featured articles.

Cerberus

I mean, sure, it is somewhat funny; but after contemplating the concept for ten seconds, I am done with it, and I get no more satisfaction from it. How can this amuse people so greatly that they even pay for it?

RegDwight

@Vitaly Whoa! I'm in that book?

Cerberus

I seriously wonder how many volumes Wiki would be in paper...

RegDwight

8:57 PM

One. See picture above.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Look that up on Wikipedia.

Cerberus

It would probably be hundreds of meters already?

RegDwight

Wikipedia:Size of Wikipedia

{| class=infobox width=250px | colspan=2 align=center style="background:#DDDDFF"| Wikipedia size & users |- | English articles: || |- | Average revisions: || |- | Total wiki pages: || |- | : || |- | Total users: || |- | colspan=2 | UTC time: on -- |} This page measures the size of the English-language edition of Wikipedia; mostly page and article count. There are currently articles in the English Wikipedia. Most of the earlier entries were extracted from . Later entries are taken from observations of the new software's built-in article count features. Wikipedia growth Wikip...

Cerberus

What if we left out the articles about popular culture, which would not be in the Britannica?

Vitaly

You beat me to it.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…