Discussion between NotMyWill- but GodsWillBe done and Monkieboy

Ali

2:09 AM

@Monkieboy May I ask, do you believe in trinity and divinity of Christ?

Monkieboy

5:49 AM

Yes I believe in trinity and divinity of Christ, but I don't fully understand it.

Ali

10:05 AM

@Monkieboy May I ask . why do you believe in something , concept of which you dont understand?

considering the fact that there are other religion like Islam that give a far more rational and sound view of the teachings of Christ?

'coz Christianity is a significant departure from what God always conveyed to its people

The final message of Islam corrected and explain so many inconsistencies and doubts regarding Jesus and his message.

Monkieboy

10:31 AM

@Ali As for my understanding of God I would say how can I possibly understand God; it is like trying to fathom the universe using a metre stick, my mind is simply incapable. It is not possible to distill God into something a human mind can comprehend, any attempt to do is futile.

@Ali Using the same rational Islamic understanding of Jesus came over half a millennium after the event how can there be any more of a firmer, more reliable historical account from Islam when it is talking about things even before Muhammad was born? One thing we can agree on is that God is God and that if He truly is almighty He can do what Christians believe He did and a great deal much more.

@Ali The ultimate questions for me aren't really about which account of God is accurate or not, I have many thoughts and although I cannot fully comprehend God there are things I do contemplate.

What is the nature of God? What does God stand for? How is God loving but still just? How much does God love mankind?Why does God love mankind? What does God expect from mankind? We can argue over scripture or we can talk to God. If we are sincere will God ignore us, when you start learning about Gods nature then you know He will not ignore.

The fact is both Christians and Muslims get it wrong, we are imperfect, we believe what we read and believe what we are told, but until we die we will not now for 100% and even then we may not know.

Some of us may claim to hear God clearly, and that is cool I wish I were able to state so boldly, but until then I will keep following what I have understood and some of it may not be inline with what other Christians believe, may not be in line with Islamic understanding, but I am sincere to a God that listens and communicates back to me in subtle ways and I learn as I go along.

I cannot say Islam is wrong just as a Muslim cannot say Christianity is wrong, we have our convictions and we live by them. The only thing I would want to be sure of is that I am sincere in my efforts and don't go blindly into following and believing something just because I am scared or not willing to do some research.

Ali

10:58 AM

@Monkieboy Have you read the Quran?

Monkieboy

Not all of it but I am reading it still.

last time I read any was earlier this year

March I think

3rd Surah I think it was called that

Ali

Nice,from your responses you seem to be still seeking the truth , May Allah guide us to the truth , but do complete the Quran and do ask questions for your doubts at Islam.SE

Monkieboy

I don't think we will ever get the truth in this world only fragments

Ali

@Monkieboy These are some interesting books on Islam , please fill the form and they would be delivered to your home

@Monkieboy islamunveiled.org/eng/modules.php?name=free_books

Monkieboy

I really have no problem with Islam apart from the sin aspect

Ali

11:04 AM

@Monkieboy which sin aspect?

Monkieboy

How is sin dealt with?

because..

As a christian I understand that my righteousness is like a dirty rag to God

in fact the scripture describes a mans righteous to menstrual rags, that is how disgusting we are before God

our righteousness sorry not us.

Ali

Allah is merciful, our sins help us to discover his mercy

Monkieboy

ok, as a Christian we understand that follwing his laws help us discover our sin

so from my perspective it is like this:

law -> knowledge of sin -> what is here in Islam -> discovering mercy

Ali

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

Monkieboy

I like the way the verse is illustrating how much God wants us to depend on Him and how much He wants to demonstrate His love to us. In the Bible John 3:16 it says:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

This also shows us Gods great love and how He intended to deal with sin.

Sin is a thing that separates man from God; God cannot even look at sin because it absolutely disgusts Him. Being a just God He obliges Himself to deal with the sin of mankind and we are in trouble because we cannot deal with sin ourselves and we cannot lead the perfect life that God requires of us, not just following His laws but living in intimate relationship with Him like best friends if you like.

In the verse you quoted, the response from a recipient of God mercy should want to leap into the embrace of God, because that is what God desires of us, but the sin makes it impossible. Mercy is offered in Christianity when the Word of God was caused to become man to deal with the power of sin for by one perfect man (Adam), sin came into the world but by one perfect man (Jesus), sin was caused to lose its power over man.

Because Jesus became the shield that received the justice of God, allowing God to be merciful still. So God is 100% Just, 100% Mercy.

Jesus took the punishment which we should receive for our sins, so that God did not punish us but instead have a relationship with us if we choose.

Ali

11:32 AM

@Monkieboy one should not be so pessimistic about God's forgiveness, regarding Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins, then NO Jesus never said those things , that he took the punishment on himself

@Monkieboy all this theory of salavation by the sacrifice of Christ is the invention of Paul

Infact believing in such absurd concept involving GOD is a big sin in itself . No bearer of burder bears the burden of another

Monkieboy

12:36 PM

@Ali Jesus may not have said things so explicitly but He knew what was going to happen take Luke 22:39-46 biblegateway.com/passage/…

He submitted to what Gods plan was. Jesus spoke in parables that is why it was not explicit. Paul made it explicit when he wrote Romans and other epistles, he was talking to believers who already had the foundational knowledge of the purpose of Jesus.

It also says in Exodus 34:6-8:

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and [a]truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 Moses made haste [b]to bow low toward the earth and worship.

biblegateway.com/passage/…

Ali

1:04 PM

@Monkieboy , “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 [a]

We believe the prayers were answered and the Cup was removed by the will of God

You see Jesus was inclined to not get "afflicted" with "crucifiction"

Infact the allegation of crucifiction defeats his title of Messiah, this is what Paul (A jew) wanted

Paul makes his intentions very clear:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

So was Jesus cursed?

Ali

1:22 PM

==

The idea Jesus was some sort of human/blood/deity sacrifice for sin (even Christians can't agree on details) is unique to Christianity. Without Paul, all we would have is an apocalyptic Jewish sect. Paul's idea (in particular Augustine's version in the West) is an utter contradiction of the Old Testament while Augustine's views are rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

==

Paul's self-assessment is closer to the historical truth, which is that he was the founder of Christianity. Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion. The need for a semblance of continuity between Christianity and Judaism, and between Gentile and Jewish Christianity, led to a playing-down of Paul's creative role. The split that took place between Paul and the Jerusalem Church is minimized in the Paulinist book of Acts, which contrasts with Paul's earlier and more authentic account in Galatians 2.

Monkieboy

Jesus then went on to say, 'Not my will but yours', which to Christians means that He submitted to the will of God, and fulfil prophecies hundreds if not thousands of years old at the time.

Cursed is everyone who is hung on the pole is correct, Jesus became the curse for all. I am not sure I agree on the statement about Christians not agreeing what Jesus was in terms of (human/blood/deity sacrifice for sin). To Christians it is clear

Ali

Paul's new religion had the advantage over other salvation-cults of being attached to the Hebrew Scriptures, which Paul now reinterpreted as forecasting the salvation-death of Jesus. This gave Pauline Christianity an awesome authority that proved attractive to Gentiles thirsting for salvation.

Paul's new doctrine, however, met with disapproval from the Jewish-Christians of the Jerusalem Church, who regarded the substitution of Jesus' atoning death for the observance of the Torah as a lapse into paganism. Paul was summoned to Jerusalem by the leaders James (Jesus' brother), Peter, and John …

Monkieboy

And you are partially right without Paul and the other Apostles then the early church would have been in disarray, the Apostles, including Paul, had a duty to perform their roles as church builders laying down the foundation of what it means to be a Christian and they carried it out successfully.

Ali

@Monkieboy Very important point:

At the ensuing conference, agreement was reached that Paul's Gentile converts did not need to observe the Torah. This was not a revolutionary decision, since Judaism had never insisted on full conversion to Judaism for Gentiles.

But Paul on this occasion concealed his belief that the Torah was no longer valid for Jews either. He was thus confirmed in the role of "apostle to the Gentiles," with full permission to enroll Gentiles in the messianic movement without requiring full conversion to Judaism.

It was when Peter visited him in Antioch and became aware of the full extent of Paul's views that a serious rift began between Pauline and Jewish Christianity. At a second conference in Jerusalem (c.55), Paul was accused by James of teaching Jews "to turn their backs on Moses" (Acts 21:21). Again, however, Paul evaded the charge by concealing his views, and he agreed to undergo a test of his own observance of the Torah.

His deception, however, was detected by a group of "Asian Jews" (probably Jewish Christians) who were aware of his real teaching. A stormy protest ensued in which Paul fear…

The Roman commandant, Claudius Lysias, decided to bring Paul before the Sanhedrin in order to discover the cause of the disturbance. With great presence of mind, Paul appealed to the Pharisee majority to acquit him, claiming to be a Pharisee like James. Paul was rescued by the Pharisees from the high priest, like Peter before him.

However, the high priest, resenting this escape, appointed a body of men to assassinate Paul. Learning of the plot, Paul again placed himself under the protection of the Romans, who transported him by armed guard from Jerusalem to Caesarea. The High Priest Anania…

@Monkieboy Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Law was a curse, except by Paul. What does Jesus say about the Law? "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17) "But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed." (John 7:49) And what does God say? "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen." (Deut 27:26)

Paul contradicts both God and Jesus at every turn. The Gentile writer of John was certainly not the Apostle John, referring to the "Jews" and "their Law" in many places. It's a second hand story mixed with a lot of Greek Platonism and anti-Semitic rhetoric. Nearly all Christian dogma is based on Paul and a misreading of John. Jesus, the "anointed" servant of God, is reduced to mere shadow. An object of worship (idolatry), not one to be followed. Jesus is no Platonic Logos.

Ali

1:46 PM

@Monkieboy Paul's claims we are all being punished for Adam's sin, even if we never sinned ourselves.

This is so unjust from God who stands for justice. But what does God has to say? But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right... he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things...he (the son) shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him..." (Ezekiel 18:5, etc.)

As God explained in Ezekiel, only the sinner will be punished for their own sins and not the sins of others. Nor will others be punished for sins they did not commit.

Monkieboy

2:21 PM

Sorry I had been a way for a while. To clarify, the curse that Jesus had freed us from was the curse of the law Galatians 3:13–14.

The fact that Jesus did not come as the Jews had expected is not the fault of Paul, the people had expectations but it was that their expectations were not as God had intended for Jesus to be the Messiah. Paul is guilty of explaining the meaning of a lot of things that would otherwise not make sense to non-Jews.

Ali

have you read the above quotes?

Monkieboy

Jesus's death was not to give the devotees eternal life, Jesus's death was to break the curse of the law.

I am still at the first quotes coming down them systematically, sorry I am slow

Ok so you are talking about the circumcision escapade where the Apostles were debating what the official party line should be.

I would not so much call it a summoning before the headmaster for Paul rather them all being together as equals debating the situation and from what I understand it is actually James, the brother of Jesus who broke the deadlock. You also have to remember that Peter also had a similar situation when he ate pork.

Paul promoted what Jesus set out as an example, in that the Law (Torah) should no longer be the standard that followers should live by, Paul promoted Jesus's own teaching of 'going the extra mile' living above the Law.

not that the Torah should be abolished but it should be superceded.

Also the account you have of paul being in the custody of the romans for his own protection was not the christians threatening him but Jews.

The Asian Jews you referred to.

Ali

2:39 PM

bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_20.htm

Monkieboy

Yep Jesus did say he did not come to destroy the law, in fact he did not, he completed it fully, which no man had ever achived in the history of mankind

Paul talks of the life Jesus lead where Jesus rose above the Law and encourages christians to follow jesus's example in rising above the law. The law was a stop-gap it was the best of a bad situation between God and the Israelites, but it has been held up as the standard a man must live to but Jesus said we should go beyond that, and Paul affirms it in his teachings in the New Testament

How can something non corrupt come from corrupt? The offspring of Adam are corrupt because they contain the corruption of Adam when he sinned against God.

All have sinned, even the Law cannot take away your sins, it can only prove to you you have sinned.

the corruption is evident, children are never taught to be bad they inherently know how to get up to mischief, no one teaches them.

Ali

Have you completed reading the above quotes , please respond to individual quotes so that I can understand to what you are responding to @Monkieboy

Monkieboy

I have responded to all I have taken a different opinion on, please ask me directly one at a time and I will respond

I generally just think people are either misunderstood on Pauls mission

i.e. they believe He was self promoting

Ali

@Monkieboy Paul's claims we are all being punished for Adam's sin, even if we never sinned ourselves.
This is so unjust from God who stands for justice. But what does God has to say? But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right... he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things...he (the son) shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him..." (Ezekiel 18:5, etc.)

Monkieboy

no you misunderstand what paul is saying

paul claims we sin because adam first sinned

does the 10 commandments exist in sharia?

or sharia is completely different?

sharia /= torah law?

Ali

2:51 PM

@Monkieboy Those were just claims of Paul, not the truth

Monkieboy

which verse?

Ali

@Monkieboy All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as Paul makes a sweeping overstatement: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." Romans

Rom 5:12, 19.

I hope you realize the gross distortion of Jesus's teaching by Paul,a fact even some Christian sects acknowledge

Monkieboy

@Ali Yes, it is true, because Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world, it was not here until Adam sinned. No all mankind is capable of sinning and we do it every day. What is wrong with that, it is the truth.

Just figured out how to 'reply'

Ali

@Monkieboy ofcourse all mankind sins thats correct but our sins is on us not because some adam sinned

pauline wing says :"All men are implicated in Adam's sin"

Monkieboy

How does Islam explain how sin came into the world?

@Ali All men are implicated in the same TYPE of sin adam committed, 'selfishness'.

although I will admit that is my personal understanding

Ali

3:03 PM

@Monkieboy It comes from Satan, a Jinn who disobeyed Allah

he was a Muslim who became arrogant and refused to obey the command of Allah, thinking he knew too much

But thats not why he sinned

he sinned because he did not repent

unlike Adam who did disobey God , but repented

and his repentence was ACCEPTED

Monkieboy

@Ali Adam or Satan?

@Ali again adam or satan

Ali

@Monkieboy Satan

also called as Iblis

Monkieboy

yes shaitan too if i am not mistaken?

Ali

And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis (Satan): he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. (2: 34)

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down. (God) said: “What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?” He said: “I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.” (God) said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the mea…

Monkieboy

Yes Christians believe a similar version of that verse.

Ali

3:09 PM

So sin predated Adams footsteps on earth

And Adam actually did not SIN as he repented

Satan did not , rather gave "logical reasons " to God

why he wont bow ..

Monkieboy

Adam did not sin just once though, he disobeyed God and he lied to God.

Ali

So In Islam , the religion of ALL prophets you virtually dont sin if you repent

@Monkieboy Yes he may have sinned multiple times , but he repented, thats the point

Satan on the contrary continued the argument and asked respite from Allah to misguide Adam

Monkieboy

Ok, in Christianity repenting means your turn away from sinful ways but you have already been stained by the sin, but you can be forgiven if you earnestly and wholeheartedly ask for forgiveness.

Ali

@Monkieboy ya thats the point : you can be forgiven if you earnestly and wholeheartedly ask for forgiveness .... as simple as that

God is not the author of confusion

Monkieboy

There are three ways of living, one you totally disobey god, two you live by his law, three you live as God intended in relationship fully submitted to His will, God as your partner, or best friend so to speak.

Jesus lived the thrid way and Paul tries to promote the third way

Ali

3:17 PM

@Monkieboy We say Jesus did not ,Jesus came to correct Jews in a special mission, Paul made it up

Monkieboy

@Ali I understand a bit more of how Islam differs from Christianity, if we were trains we would definitely be on different tracks although it would seem we are closer than that.

Ali

It is very clear to any person who is serious enough to understand

We believe Islam is the way, only way for salvation and I found your question on Islam.SE

Monkieboy

Which question?

Ali

14

Q: How would I convert to Islam and become a Muslim?

I am a Christian, and in Christianity a person becomes a Christian when they say a prayer to God. The prayer would include: asking for forgiveness with heart felt meaning and sincerity turning away from their ways that are in contradiction to God commands and good desire for our lives most impo...

Monkieboy

I will end this thread now but I would ask one thing.

Ali

3:23 PM

I appreciate the fact that you are willing to make an informed decision

@Monkieboy So how you pursued your quest?

The answer which you gave to my question reflected you great understanding of Islam

and thats why I accepted it

Monkieboy

I became a Christian when I was 15, I prayed to God and my prayer was answered, I had in mind Jesus, God the Father and The Holy Spirit, for me they answered my prayers.That we pray for each other that whichever of us may be mislead we would locate the truth. I believe God listens to those who are honest even if mistaken.

Ali

One should accept the thing with which he is convinced

Monkieboy

@Ali thank you :)

Ali

and I feel you are inclined towards Islam

and even understand it well to point you are convinced

Monkieboy

Which question did you pose?

Ali

3:28 PM

but there is some thing which stops you to embrace Islam?

2

A: Did Jesus himself assert the fact that he belonged to some religion like Judaism?

In response to the part of your question about what word Jesus used to describe the religion he followed, I would have to say that it cannot be described in a single word what religion Jesus was aligned to, although, for the sake of compartmentalising Jesus as part of one sect or another, I think...

You clearly answered with an Islamic perspective , maybe unknowingly

Monkieboy

4:14 PM

I understand how a true Muslim would lead their life, it is not about I follower this or I did that, but it is I tried to do what I think God would do in this situation, I follow that approach. I think maybe a Muslim would not expect that from a Christian, but there are some of us out here that do.

Ali

4:26 PM

@Monkieboy "I think What God would do...?"

Man is fallible

Monkieboy

4:48 PM

Yes, I think what would God do.

Ali

@Monkieboy How can you think about what God would do, you have to be above God to do so

Daniel

5:14 PM

@Ali Why was I invited to this room?

Caleb

6:52 PM

@Ali At least four different mods have been been over this with you nearly a dozen times. You've been suspended multiple times over it already. You may not use the invite function to send unsolicited invites to other users. End of story.

Monkieboy

7:44 PM

@Ali That is why you have a relationship with God so you can learn His nature enough to have a clue of how to act in given situations, as God would act in the same situation.

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Discussion between NotMyWill- but God…