+1: for a good answer but the latest edit just proves he is a Messiah and does not say that he was himself a Jew.

read again, I had not finished explaining how being the Messiah infers being a Jew.

That's nice, Jesus does not mention the condition of salvation to be believing himself as God. The salvation lies in the puritanical faith as followed by all the prophets , not say of the Jewish sects like samaritans , or Saducces,Pharisees etc. Also can you please clarify Jesus's affinity towards a particular Jewish sect? @Monkieboy

I was not equating the condition of salvation to be believing himself as God. I was stating that Jesus explains that salvation comes from the Jews; and when the Samaritan woman clarifies and specifies the Messiah as the salvation (and therefore a Jew), Jesus then claims, quite clearly, that He is the Messiah and implies He is a Jew, are you making my statement out to be tenuous?

Your answer perfectly answers the question except the conclusion , it is short of accepting it as an answer 'coz in the conclusion you have only inferred jesus to be a Jew which we can already infer as he was born in a "Jewish" household and observed the Torah laws . The samaritan women does not say salavation comes from Jews but rather she is confused about her sect and is anticipating the Messiah to solve her confusion this is why she says like "Let the Messiah come and he will explain us about the truth" to which Jesus responds that he himself is the Messiah. @Monkieboy

I agree, the Samaritan woman does not say salvation is from the Jews, it is Jesus that says that salvation comes from the Jews, which is why I am pointing it out that it is Jesus who is inferring/implying that he is a Jew not just me from my interpretation.

yes he does say salavation comes from Jews , but which Jews? . There were dozens of divergent Jewish sects, As you have rightly asserted in the first para of the answer that Jesus is referring: " it cannot be described in a single word what religion Jesus was.." ... "Jesus's religion was therefore not one of the established theologies of the time, but rather a lifestyle of submitting to the will of the Father"

Ahhh ok, I see where you are going with this, your question is whether the meaning of 'Jews' is referring to the people/race/culture or as a group that practices Judaism in a specific definable religious form?

yes sort of , you can edit the conclusion to reflect this though

I have added a final edit, although, I doubt I can give you a definitive answer that fits the criteria you are after.

@Monkieboy Thanks I have accepted the answer ,

What do you think about what could actually be the religion of ""Jesus's religion was therefore not one of the established theologies of the time, but rather a lifestyle of submitting to the will of the Father"" @Monkieboy

I think the lifestyle of following God was what Jesus's whole ministry was about.

Like what religion can best explain the fact that its adherents wholeheartedly submits their will to God alone?

Well the Essenes were very fervent from what I understand but I think they missed the point a bit

From my understanding, Pharisees and Sadducees were corrupted by their desire for power.

I feel it is none other then Islam

Well Islam, again from my perspective, is a legalistic system also

@Monkieboy what does that mean?

legalistic system?

yes

Islam is a way of life

They believe they obtain salvation through following rules/laws

Yes Islam is a way of life

No thats not correct salavation is not through following rules \\laws alon

are you a Muslim?

2. Do good deeds

3. Invite others to truth

4. Have patience

@Monkieboy alhamdulillah I am

Salavation in Islam : islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0510-2819

salaam alaikum to you

@Monkieboy Walekum assalam

@Monkieboy Are you a Muslim?

There is an entire book written on why works\ laws alone is not salavation , Surah asr which I quoted above explains it clearly

here is the book:scholaris.com/islam/learning/PDF/…

I follow Isa Masih, I call myself Christian but the essence of my faith is to follow the will of God by relationship with Him, so I can try my best to do what I believe He would do in the circumstances and situations I am in.

The reason I say Islam is legalistic is from a Christian perspective....

@Monkieboy You can have a better relationship with him while being a Muslim too

Please correct me if I am wrong, but from my understanding in Islam the onus is on the believer to 'gain' the salvation, in Christianity, we only have to accept it.

@Monkieboy No in Islam , it is the mercy of Allah throught which we gain salavation, there are many hadith on this about learned people going to hell as they dont recieve the mercy of God, whereas a prostitute eneters heaven due to mercy of God

Accepting it means living the way Jesus lived, in obedience, and sacrificial giving, and acknowledging that we cannot save ourselves because we are inherently sinful. It took one perfectly made man for sin to enter the world so it takes one perfect man for sin to be dealt with.

Yes, I agree, mercy of God, with was expressed by one man being sacrificed for all.

which* was expressed

@Monkieboy Thats sounds good and fanciful , but what if Jesus never taught this thing ?

early christians did not believe Jesus to be God\trinity

and we believe Jesus himself was a Muslim

If he never taught this then the world I think would definitely be a worse place to live in, but that is subjective I guess.

@Monkieboy You should rather think about it as there are 1 billion+ followers of Jesus who believe that he was not crucified and so did the early christians\disciples did not believe in Trinity except Paul

More ever this world is a place of test, and no bearer of sin can bear other person's burden

this is injustice , and God bearing our sins is even more absurd as he does not need to bear sins , rather he forgives sins

without needing any sacrifice

Well I like to think out things for myself and not follow the majority if my life is at stake. I am in agreement that no one else can be held accountable for my sins, but the whole point of sacrifice is that the blood of the sacrifice is to atone for sins, right? I belive this to be true for Muslims and Jews alike?

Christianity has concept of original sin , while in Islam we have Original forgiveness.

This actually reflects how merciful God is

does not require sacrifice of anyone

original forgiveness for what?

@Monkieboy forgiveness for the sins by the mercy of God

I believe the same understanding is in Christianity too but not termed as nicely as that.

Its pretty simple and straightforward as it was always at the time of all the prior prophets

Christianity \paul\nicene creed bought a significant departure to what was the norm,

people were already being forgiven by GOD without any sacrifice

just a repentance is required

Christians believe Jesus was the final sacrifice

the world sounds much better without believing in this bloodshed of Jesus, as we have already seen that due to the absurd doctrines people would altogether stop believing in God , all of a sudden you find entire churches being abandoned in the west...

God has made his religion simple

for humans to follow

man has made it complicated

it was always simple, yes Paul made it complicated

give me an example or two.

How do you understand each statement? I can understand how you find it difficult to reconcile the statements to each other.

Where are you from by the way, I am from England

This is important:

@Monkieboy From India

ok, I ask where you are from because culture affects the way we think and perceive things. I am from the West and try to not allow my western education to shape the way I read a statement and understand in my society and time. Many things have been written for times and cultures that are not our own and it is important not to allow this to affect what is being said in scripture.

the last quote

I will try to explain

if you would like me to?

ofcourse nothing incl me stops you

well I do not wish to insult your intelligence, you may well know already the reasoning.

@Monkieboy Ya may be, I have had many discussions with christians since 5 yrs

Jesus is repeating scripture from a prophet and is pointing something out to the Jews that they still have not grasped

He is talking to a specific group of people not to people in general, but we can still learn something from this.

I would like you to order this , some free goodies to know more about the real message of Jesus:islamunveiled.org/eng/modules.php?name=free_books

islamunveiled.org/eng/modules.php?name=free_books

He is telling the Pharisees, who at the time were very pious and believed that they had rights over the common person. The pharisees made grand sacrifices and heaped laws on the common people that the common people could never live up to.

Jesus was saying to the Pharisees that the sacrifices they made to God were pointless as they were still oppressing the common person, thus mercy in this sense is mercy to not burden the common person with all the laws and extra laws that the pharisees made to make sure that other laws would not be broken. This is called putting a hedge around a law.

@Monkieboy I would myself agree with this and also state this exact reason for Christians to not realize that Islam is what Jesus taught and prophesied

I cannot actually disagree with a lot of what a Muslim believes when it comes to relationship with God and living the lifestyle.

@Monkieboy Yes I agree with you , even Islam believes in that , the sacrifice is of no value if there is no sincerity and mercy of God

Jesus had come to only the lost sheep to correct them

Islam, for the most part is a word representing quite a lot of what I believe.

his mission was small yet mighty for the Jews who had become to ritualistic

emphasis on ritualism is something we both need to be conscious of

specifically he was sent exclusively for the Jews with very specific teachings to correct them alone

Yes agreed, but if you notice Jesus actually dedicated his life to a small number of people who eventually went on to change the world.

You can look at all the factors but in the end God is actually only interested in the Net result

@Monkieboy No, I disagree even his disciples were not much successful to change the Jews as how Jews persited in their folly inspite of Jesus passing and going away

well they were only unsuccessful if you see the Jews as the target.

It was much later when Paul came that an entirely new religion was founded

Going back to your questions

the last one do you understand how the statements seem contradictory but actually are not?

Paul was a top theologian of his time and understood the scriptures as well as the best, he was an academic which is why some of what he wrote is so wordy.

brb going to lunch

@AlUmmatمجاهد trying to catch up too huh? Lol sholom

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Wa Alaikum, catch up?

On the conversation

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob oh, I just dropped in, I am reading the first of it, but I don't think I want to read to the end of it

Same it seems too long

@Monkieboy I would like to add a jewish perspective to the Samaritan woman and as to why Jesus might have said what he said

@Monkieboy according to the talmud which was about the same time as Jesus, it is disputed if Samaritans are really Jews or not. One opinion is that they converted out of fear of being killed by animals in Israel where they lived while the other opinion is that they converted but still believed in thee pagan deity. They didn't accept the rulings of the Pharisees but only the written torah. Therefore they were considered either apostate Jews or non Jews.

Yes, I was of the understanding that they were considered of 'lesser importance' than the Jews.

@Monkieboy By what he achieved I would say yes he was sharp, intelligent, shrewd orator the kind of personality which makes people tycoons and celebrities. Paul succeeded in conveying a pagan approximation of message of Christ phenomenally as explained above , a task at which Jesus pbuh failed inspite of many miracles and teachings.

@Monkieboy so as a result from that we can see Jesus was saying become Jews because salvation is in judaism and not in Samaritan interpretation of judaism

In the talmud it says the commandments which they did accept, they performed them better than Jews even. They took some pharasee laws I think not sure

@AlUmmatمجاهد Assalaamlaikum @AlUmmatمجاهد

@Ali Yes Paul was sharp, intelligent and very shrewd and quite possibly possessed the qualities that celebrities would exhibit. The thing I would point out though is that Paul did not live the high life or benefit materially, if he wanted to twist people why wouldn't he make himself the centre of the religion rather than Christ?

Comparing Christ to Paul, from a modern Christian perspective, is actually a mistake because Pauls message is to reveal to the gentiles who Jesus is, why Jesus is necessary and how and what it means to follow Jesus. Jesus's purpose was to make it possible for man and God to be reconciled.

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob No, Jesus did not tell people or imply that people should follow any religion, any institution or any person. Jesus tried to tell people that following a law cannot make you righteous it can only tell you where you are going wrong. Abraham is the example for how to live accordingly, he was accounted as righteous according to his faithfulness in following and knowing God. He came before the law so how can the law ever have been long term purpose for justifying man?

@Monkieboy He did make himself the center of religion , what people call word of god , contains letters of Paul. When I was reading the gospel I could easily relate teachings of Jesus to Islam and appreaciated how Islam gives the bigger picture and answers all the questions a gospel reader would have, but when I began reading the pauline epistles , it was completely contradictory to what I was reading and felt a disconnect.....

@Monkieboy some aspects of the law(Torah) were revealed to prophets before Mosha Rabbeinu by Allah

@Monkieboy before Torah everyone still followed the law. It was the law of Banei NoahH.

@Monkieboy Avrohom Ovinu was a prophet and a righteous man because he went above the law.

Not because he didn't follow laws

@Monkieboy also look at what Jesus said. He came not to change the law. If he was going to nullify the law, that would be called changing the law.

He says not even a Yod(smallest letter of the torah) should be erased.

@Monkieboy how did NoahH know what kosher animals were

ofwere of the Torah was not revealed yet?

but the Torah says that NoahH was told by Allah to bring 7 of kosher animal species and 2 of non kosher

Ok, so many questions let me try to address them 1 by 1....

@Ali You have to remember that Paul was teaching people that had no background of Judaism or Abrahamic so he has to tell extra to convey a lot of meaning, so using terms that the Greeks or Romans understood is to be expected when you talk to people you have to make it relevant to the people you are talking to no?

@Monkieboy Ofcourse I agree that we need to use correct language terms, but the belief we are preaching should not change

like for eg, in India we translate Quran to hindi

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob First Questuion: I am talking from a Christians perspective so your first point is not something I can directly answer, but in my bible it does say (I struggle to remember the verses) that the law is written in the heart, which to me means we know right from wrong inherently.

but wont try to depict Muhammad pbuh as a Hindu Brahaman etc

Give me a verse and I will attempt to reconcile to your understanding of what Jesus taught.

@Ali

but here in India , I see the catholic church prints a bible which shows Mary as a hindu women

wearing saree

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I am not aware of Law of Noah

@Monkieboy the christian perspective is not a jewish perspective. jesus who was a jew would have thought things from a jewish perspective. so why not learn the jewish perspective instead of guess what jesus might have thought

even hindus are allowed here to worship the idol of Jesus

Well in th West there are images of Jesus as blond and blue eyed, and attractive but that is clearly wrong so I would agree with you on that point

@Monkieboy in hebrew it is called shaba misSwoth banei NoahH. 8 laws of the children of Noah

I have been to India and have experienced the freedom of expression in terms of worshipping what ever god can be constructed

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I am not aware of them, is it something that has been carried through into the Christian bible?

Abraham = Avrohom Ovinu?

@Monkieboy idk anything bout the christian bible. is Avrohom Ovinu is Abraham

Jesus actually fulfilled the Law but what was incredible is that He lived to a higher standard than what the Law set and no man has ever done that.

Abraham lived to a higher stadard also but would not have satisfied the requirements of the law because he too was not perfect.

@Monkieboy what does it mean fulfill the law? fulfill as in follow the law? all jews follow the law just like he did. fulfill the law as in some fulfillment of criteria? the law is not a criteria to be fulfilled, the law is what we are supposed to abide by

And yes the statement that not one Jot of the law would be changed is totally something I am in agreement with.

Yes all Jews follow the Law but none can actually follow it perfectly.

@Monkieboy no one is perfect. what does it mean to fulfill the law? no one in the law it says you have o be perfect. the law was given to make you perfect

No, that is not what a Christian understands.

The Law was to reveal our inability to meet the standard of God.

@Monkieboy no it wasnt...

Not that by following it would make us perfect.

I am talking from a Christian view.

which contradicts the Torah...

and jesus said he wont contradict the torah

How

so how are you preaching something like this

Ok let me try to explain

the law was given so taht we can get closer to HaShem

God

From a Christian view point as this thread started from Christianity.SE

Back in the day, Moses time, Israel was in slavery to Egypt, Moses liberated the Israelites.

The Israelites knew of God but didn't have a relationship with Him as God had wanted.

how is that possible? He gave us the Torah on Mount Sinai.

God desired a relationship with His people, similar to the relationship He had with, Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham.

I am getting to the Torah point be patient :)

ok

The Israelites wanted to be free from slavery, but when they were freed they doubted that God had set them free indeed because pharoah was chasing them and they thought they would have been better back in Egypt at least they would have food, shelter etc. I am abbreviating a bit here so please bare with me.

Basically, the Israelites at the time had witnessed the miracles that Moses had performed over Egypt but still had doubt and a reluctance to truly live lives the way God had intended.

When Moses, eventually did more miracles, splitting the Red Sea etc and lead them to Sinai, He disappeared up mount sinai and communed with God and was given the 10 commandments.

at the same time down the mountain, the Israelites were in a quandry, Moses had disappeared and Aaron was left down the mountain and was under pressure from the Israelites as they were not sure what was happening. It was at this point that they decided to created a golden calf so they could worship it because that was their view of who God was.

In essence they wanted a God they could contain, but all the while Moses was up the mount talking to God to get the 10 commandments and God told Moses that they (Israelites) are sinning against me by constructing the calf.

God intended for His people to follow him with their whole lives but the israelites did not want the same thing, they wanted a god on their terms that they could contain. God was ready to finish them but Moses interceded on their behalf and God relented and the Law was given to provide a temporary way for the Israelites to present themselves before God once a year.

God actually wanted to be closer to the Israelites than just once a year but this was the distance that the Israelites set due to their 'reluctance' to commit entirely to God.

um can you stop for a sec

The Law was actually second rate compared with what God ahd in mind. The blood sacrifices were a precursor to Jesus.

yes sure

remember I am writing from the top of my head so some words are not entirely accurate

you are just restating the Torah chapters to me

but some things are off

first of all that one time a year holiday is called Yom Kippur

ok explain please

this is the day which Moses gave the Torah to the Jews

Yom Kippur means Day of Atonement

yep i agree

blood to atone for sins right?

every year jews fast for over 24hours not because of the sin of the calf. the atonement was done even before this incident

sin of the calf?

sacrificing animals is not meant as a way to say here is my animal and my sin is taken away

it is a symbolic act which you are supposed to learn from.

you should be slaughtered by God for doing that sin instead of the calf

yes I am still in agreement

also just because you offered an animal sacrifice doesnt mean your sin is forgiven

yes

you have to repent yourself internally. the animal sacrifice is the lowest way of repentence

i am still in agreement

ok

so God had the relatinoship with israel more than ones a year. He had it many times throughout the year. the holidays of sukkoth shavuoth and pasahH

the holiday of rosh hashono as well

but only once could anyone go into the holy of holies

not anyone

only the kohen jodhol

the high priest

a selected priest

yes

on yom kippur

yep you explain so much better then I :)

so i am not understanding this connection you are talking about

God had the connection with the entire nation as a whole

with Moses

and each individual person

ok, from a Christian point, this arrangement is not how we understand God had intended it to be.

everyone has a relationship with God

Yom Kippur , day of atonement is atonement for sins commited against God

not sins against another person

yes

only the person who you hurt can forgive you

Ok so this way of being with God once a year was not how God wanted it to be, He wanted to be with His people all the time, not on a once a year basis.

i am still not getting this once a year thing...

i told you jews have holidays, the 3 holidays of pilgrimage sukkoth shavuoth and pasahH

sacrifices are done on these holidays too

Thats my point, Jews do it on holidays pretty much like some westerners go the church only at Christmas. God wanted a relationship with every Israelites as He share a rationship with Jesus, an everyday relationship. The Law, from a Christian perspective, is given to make the relationship just about ok, from Gods perspective.

But it is not Gods ideal.

what are you talking about?

jews dont sacrifices animals anymore becuase there is no temple

and there is no need for sacrifices to get closer to God

Its not just about closeness

I did not know the temple was a requirement for sacrifices

yes that is the law

how could that be before the temple was built?

or was it a law introduced after it was destroyed?

the jews had a temporary temple in the dessert

tabernacle

I assume you are a Jew right?

yes

How would you describe your relationship with God? If you don't mind me asking?

a healthy relationship

i decalres God's unity and pray to him 3 times a day

Is that what is required of a Jew?

yes

OK

How does your relationship manifest itself, I don't mean what do you have to do, I mean is there a two-way thing happening, how do you sense what God wants for you, if indeed as a Jew you have a relationship in that sense?

I am asking because I am curious, not trying to put a loaded question to you.

when reading and learning Torah i see the miracles that God did for me and the miracles which He does on a daily basis

this is Him telling us that He cares

we look at the history of the jews

and see how we were persecuted and yet still survived throughout the ages

this is a connection in of its self with Him