Fate chat and game room

Problematic

00:16

The Fate System Toolkit is really good.

BESW

Eeeup.

Cat

Howdy folks!

BESW

Hey.

Cat

:)

How goes the world of tabletop API (?) development?

BESW

Application programming interface

Generally speaking, an application programming interface (API) is a specification of how some software components should interact with each other. In practice in most of the cases an API is a library that usually includes specification for routines, data structures, object classes, and variables. An API specification can take many forms, including an International Standard such as POSIX, vendor documentation such as the Microsoft Windows API, the libraries of a programming language, e.g., Standard Template Library in C++ or Java API. An API differs from an application binary interface...

Cat

00:25

Oops!

OK, so I can't use the terminology, clearly!

BESW

No, it's pretty accurate.

Problematic

No, you were right.

Cat

OK - I feel less naive now ;)

BESW

Problematic's working on the API, while Hobbs is on the UI.

Problematic

And to answer: I'm still fiddling with some quirky annoying bits, but we're close on the API.

My job could be done if I shifted some extra work onto the front-end, but I'm trying to play nice with others :)

BESW

00:28

API = brain and higher functions; UI = face and automatic functions.

Cat

Great stuff. You guys seriously amaze me with your talents and the donation of said talents to eventually benefit the community.

BESW

Indeed. I am marveled.

Cat

@Problematic A worthy goal!

Problematic

@Cat Ah, thanks. I'm just glad to have a cool project to hack on.

Cat

:)

So, any rumors of a play session any time soon?

Problematic

00:29

I'm hoping to play one this weekend.

Cat

Or are we all absorbed in (derserving) programming pursuits right now?

BESW

My work and personal life are subsuming me.

Cat

Understood @BESW, I'm hoping maybe Bradd will show up online while I am.

BESW

My mother's going to be off-island for six weeks, and we're trying to get everything together we can before then so that I can focus on taking care of my dad instead of paying bills.

Cat

Well, Bradd and Jonathan

@BESW good plan!

Problematic

00:31

@BESW You've mentioned that situation a few times, too forward of me to ask about it?

BESW

@Problematic My dad has an unusual presentation of Parkinson's Disease.

Cat

:(

Problematic

Ah, that's rough.

BESW

Ayuh.

afk 5-10 minutes.

Problematic

Ooooh, skill modes (FST27)

That would be perfect for High Noon

Cat

00:41

I'll just assume you're right since I haven't been following that stream of conversation on this channel yet ;)

Problematic

Do you have the Fate System Toolkit pdf?

Cat

Ummm...I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

I have the FAE and core pdfs

Problematic

Basically, you group skills into a few different archetypes, and instead of players picking a skill list, they pick 3 groups

Cat

Sounds efficient

Problematic

Aye, will still allowing room for personal expression. Love it.

BESW

00:51

If you'd like the Toolkit, I can pass it on to you; it's basically "How to Hack Fate."

(Although not in the same precise sense of the word "hack" that @Problematic used earlier.)

Problematic

@BESW I was gonna offer, but as a not-backer, it didn't feel right

BESW

Scruples are good!

Problematic

So I'm told!

BESW

Eh, sent.

Problematic

01:04

Today's word of the day: Armigerous

BESW

That is a word I did not know.

Problematic

Brought to you by Fate

BESW

Aspects are an awesome opportunity to expand one's vocabulary.

Offered gratis:

pule and pollard

Speaking of language...

1

Q: What does Theoden's quote in The Two Towers 'oft evil will shall evil mar' mean?

The formulation of this phrase seems odd and I can't pick the full meaning out of it. He says it after Wormtongue has thrown the Palantir out of Orthanc, which seems to be a great example of evil shooting itself in it's own foot, but that doesn't seem to be the thrust of the phrase.

a) I am sad that such grammatic constructions are confusing to people
b) That would be a great trouble for a villain with a lot of lackeys.

Problematic

01:21

Ha. Yes, yes it would.

BESW

01:39

Actually, it'd work for a villain with poor self-control too.

I'm thinking about early-seasons Spike from Buffy.

"I know that if I waited two days I'd've had an army of invincible vampires to invincibly lead, but I got bored. So we're here now! And totally stakeable!"

Problematic

Spike always had poor self-control.

Right up until "ooh, my soul is tingly!"

BESW

yes, but it was his trouble aspect only in the earlier seasons. Maybe only season two.

Problematic

I s'pose after that was I'm in Love with the Vampire Slayer

BESW

Nah, before that he had a chip in his head.

Problematic

Oh, right.

The middle seasons are kind of a blur.

BESW

01:45

I.... fell out of love with Buffy when they went to college.

Sadly, many of the best episodes are in the later seasons, while the characters and plot arcs got sillier and deviated further from the premise I came to the show to enjoy.

Problematic

I really liked Riley until Joss got all "let's make him an equal with Buffy by making him a secret supersoldier!"

BESW

Eh.

From the very first he was Mister Too-Perfect.

Problematic

I thought that was what made him a good fit for Buffy.

He would have been great as the ideal person without superpowers, and she as superpowers and warts

BESW

He was bland. All the tension in their relationship came from external sources--their secret lives, not their personalities.

Problematic

All of her relationships.

BESW

01:50

Riley felt like a reward for Buffy's hard work and sacrifice, not like a person.

Problematic

See, that would have made an interesting plot development.

BESW

I would've watched Buffy and Willow buy drain cleaner and found it interesting.

Riley was only ever interesting because of what was going on.

Problematic

I s'pose.

I thought he was a nice break from Angel, until he turned all super-emo.

BESW

Mmm. Angel and Buffy had different problems with their chemistry, but I must go! Errands!

Problematic

Ciao.

doppelgreener

04:34

@Problematic I'm okay with that depending on what it is!

@Cat Yeah, I'm hoping that way too. I've been considering offering to DM but it's a pity I won't be able to DM sessions between Sindaria and Stellata. Dx

But yeah, Problematic: certain stuff might well make perfect sense to be dealt with by the front end, so let me know if there's stuff you think the front end should do.

Problematic

04:55

@JonathanHobbs there's just a bit of contrivance in saving nested information like aspects and skills and so forth. Mostly aspects.

I'm trying to smooth it out, but I'll let you know if I can't figure it out.

doppelgreener

05:18

@Problematic is there much I can do about that?

considering I'd be massaging the data I read anyway, since my aspect collection is not (currently) where I keep consequences (they go to the fractal's consequence object), etc

(that might change)

If there's something I can do on my end to make that easier on your end I'd be happy to try

Problematic

Consequences are a separate collection on the fractal; they just have a reference to which aspect they represent when they're filled

doppelgreener

Oh, I thought in that first fractal I saw from the API that consequences were bundled in with aspects. Was that the case?

Problematic

05:44

Possibly; I don't remember. When I was actually putting it together, the other way made more sense :)

doppelgreener

Oh alright. :)

Problematic

You have a nice list of deliverables. I have... flying by the seat of my pants.

doppelgreener

XD

oh dear.

doppelgreener

07:01

Hi @BESW!

BESW

Hi!

BESW

10:38

I've elaborated on the introduction to the Forest, adapting lines from the novel.

Problematic

13:19

Ooh.

Excellent.

[blink]

Glancing over the places list, I read the last one under Herman's School as "Firm Butt Faire"

Problematic

13:37

Official Fate Core errata

3

Or, as official as being linked from the Fate Core G+ group gets, I suppose.

Oh, and evilhat. So I guess pretty official.

doppelgreener

Jeez that forest art is nice...

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Oh, hey, someone else finally clicked on it.

doppelgreener

@BESW I'm glad I did, too.

Problematic

Hmm... I think I could do a "times clicked" counter with my helper script

BESW

Discourse already does that for the forum...

Problematic

13:43

Here, I mean

BESW

Hrm.

Interesting.

doppelgreener

Do we need it? o:

BESW

@JonathanHobbs We don't need typing indicators either, but yeah--it's pretty frilly.

Problematic

Need? No.

doppelgreener

I dunno, typing indicators are pretty useful. I never really understood why we had a link-clicks counter on Discourse though.

Problematic

13:47

Interesting metadata, I think.

BESW

On Discourse it makes a kind of sense... one moment.

Bah, can't find the blog post about it right now.

But yeah: it's a metadata feature to help evaluate the success of a post: people put links in posts for them to be clicked on. Knowing if and how much people are clicking on them is thus useful feedback.

I suspect that later builds will have an option for show/hide on the regular post views though.

Problematic

Isn't that the purpose of a link anywhere?

BESW

Well, yes.

But there are.... times and places? I'm not saying a click counter is bad, just that a) there might be better uses for your effort and resources, and b) it might be more distracting than helpful in this particular context.

But mostly a.

Problematic

I s'pose so.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Along those lines, though, I'm curious why you're glad you saw the forest art.

Problematic

14:09

So a stunt to increase a consequence's severity is technically equivalent to a two-shift hit, but am I wrong in thinking that it seems... more powerful than increasing an attack by two shifts?

BESW

....yes, because increasing an attack by two shifts isn't an automatic success.

If there was a chance of failure involved, it'd be more balanced.

Or--

Problematic

I pulled the stunt from the sourcebook; it's a once-per-scene thing there.

BESW

Wow.

Problematic

Its power level surprised me

BESW

I'd do it something like this:

> Stunt: Because I always aim to maim, when one of my ~~Careful~~ gun attacks causes a consequence, I can increase its severity by one step, to a maximum of severe.

Now it requires a successful roll under a certain circumstance to trigger.

Problematic

14:15

Oh, it costs a Fate point. Forgot that.

BESW

Oooh. Then never mind, that's fine.

Problematic

> Killing Stroke. Once per scene, when you force an opponent to take a consequence, you can spend a fate point to increase the consequence’s severity (so mild becomes moderate, moderate becomes severe). If your opponent was already going to take a severe consequence, he must either take a severe consequence and a second consequence or be taken out.

Fate Core 111

BESW

Spending a Fate point is a good way to allow an unusually strong concept without imbalancing the stunt.

Problematic

Two shifts in the hand is worth four in the bush?

BESW

Something like that.

Basically, the stunt adds a... what's the word?

Ah.

It combines "adding a new action to a skill" with "creating a rules exception" to add a new "action" to the fate point economy.

Problematic

14:21

I like that there's such a simple answer to balance issues. "Give it a higher cost."

Where "cost" is a well-defined concept.

BESW

And so many different kinds of cost, depending on the balance issue.

The difference between a Refresh cost and an FP cost is... elegant.

Problematic

You should write about it!

BESW

Where and when?

Problematic

I'm still working on that.

I'm not sure if there needs to be Yet Another Blog about Fate and tabletop gaming in general, but we have a lot of really good insights in this community and it seems like they should be collected somewhere.

In something more than Question and Answer form, that is.

The Mood of the Room

4d6

Dice Service

14:37

•

Problematic

"Open market. You could lose your shirt, or find a great deal, but mostly you'll just find what you need -- if you can pay for it."

BESW

Nice.

Problematic

14:59

@PearsonArtPhoto howdy!

PearsonArtPhoto

Well, I figured it was time to make an attempt at actually using the site, and not just the chat room.

I must say, this is one of the friendlier SE site's I've been on recently.

BESW

Some of us make a concerted effort to keep the environment supportive.

It probably helps that we're gathering because we're all interested in a social medium.

Problematic

Thanks for your answer, by the way.

BESW

And for the edit on the other answer. Well caught.

PearsonArtPhoto

No problem. I'm still doing a bit of work on it.

Photography once upon a time was at a similar level of helpfulness. I haven't hung out there for a while (I changed, I don't know if they changed...)

BESW

15:04

We do have a tendency to get a bit elitist sometimes; it's easy to forget what it was like to be new to the ideas underlying RPGs, and to learn the systems. I'm always happy to see "new blood." Keeps us grounded.

PearsonArtPhoto

LOL.

BESW

Like any other community, it requires effort on the part of its citizens to keep it from devolving.

PearsonArtPhoto

Except for the fact that Fate Core is free, I would find myself really wanting 3-4 chapters from Fate Core for use in FAE.

BESW

Yeah, FAE doesn't feel like it's written to be used totally without Core.

PearsonArtPhoto

I should just count the number of times that FAE mentions Core...

BESW

15:06

heheh.

Problematic

Fred Hicks on "what's the difference between Fate and Fate Accelerated?": "About 250 pages"

PearsonArtPhoto

LOL.

BESW

Oh, and regarding the ideas about structure and details and templates, there's another book that hasn't come out yet called the Fate System Toolkit which is basically "how to hack Core." It's looking pretty cool.

@Problematic That reminds me of Dylan's 1965 interview.

Reporter: "What are your songs about?"
Bob Dylan: "Oh, some are about four minutes, some are about five, and some, believe it or not, are about eleven or twelve."

PearsonArtPhoto

Let's see. "For some great advice about how to design the framework of your game, see Game Creation in Fate
Core, available for free at www.evilhat.com", "See “Succeed at a Cost” in Running the Game in Fate Core for more ideas.", "If you’d like to read more about the construction of stunts, see Skills and Stunts in Fate Core.", "If you’d like to read more about the art of GMing Fate, there are several chapters in the Fate Core rules that you should check out: Running the Game, Scenes, Sessions, and Scenarios, and The Long Game are particularly helpful", "Fate Core has a way of handling this…

BESW

Yeah, looks like most of it is "To get the why behind this rule, see Core!" with a smattering of "To get more options, see Core!"

FAE has the dials (complexity) turned down and the game philosophy excised.

PearsonArtPhoto

15:11

So, I count 5 references referring you to Fate Core... Not all that complete...

BESW

Yeah, but look at what it's referring you to in the Core:

Problematic

One sentence cuts down on a lot of pages.

BESW

advice
ideas
extra options
advice
extra options

Only two of those are mechanical, and they're basically add-ons.

PearsonArtPhoto

Well, that's a good point I suppose.

It feels to me that they made the mechanism simpler with FAE, but left out some of the detail required to really make it work. FAE is complete, just that those without some experience with RPGs might end up needing to use the referenced sections.

BESW

Yeah, it's mechanically complete but in order to gain its brevity the manual had to sacrifice the philosophy of the game.

So in that sense, Core is much better for someone new to RPGs to read while FAE is better for them to use. Interesting!

Problematic

15:16

[@BESW don't wanna derail this conversation, but at some point can I get some help expanding the ideas in this sentence: "If this is not the case, what are the key differences that I should be aware of in my decision-making process as I pick between the two systems for my games?"]

PearsonArtPhoto

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I would end up saying.

BESW

@Problematic Ahuh. Questions like that are why I grind my teeth at this site sometimes.

Problematic

Oh?

(my son says "hello" with his little keyboard-mashing hands)

BESW

I guarantee you that asking that question would garner at least one "lecture about Fate" answer that concludes "a good GM doesn't care because Fate is about the story not the rules," but doesn't actually answer the question.

Problematic

I s'pose that's why I'm coming here for help.

BESW

15:21

[teeensie bit bitter about being lectured about philosophy when asking for advice on how to implement the philosophy]

Problematic

I'm not sure if your ire is directed at me or not.

BESW

No. It's not.

Anyway, what ideas do you want to expand, and in what direction?

Problematic

Jun 7 at 6:19, by BESW

@Problematic Open up this bit: "as I pick between the two systems for my games"

Interested in your thoughts on that.

I suppose I should offer some requirements instead of "my decision-making process"

BESW

yeeeeessssss.

Problematic

Hrm.

BESW

15:33

Okay, start here: visualize goals.

You've got a game in mind. You've got a vision of the experience the game will create.

That's the goal: the experience.

Divide it into discrete chunks, if possible.

What will it look like when people are playing it? How fast is combat? Is there a lot of discussion, or one person talks at a time? How often are dice rolled?

This is a really big step back.

Big picture endgame stuff.

Problematic

Okay, so the things I'm interested in are (in no particular order): customizability of the game (I like to create), pace of play (my group is busy and it's hard to stay engaged with hour-long combats in the vein of D&D), and learning curve vs. depth

Offhand, anyway.

BESW

Okay, so those are categories and contexts.

What is the pace of play that your context leads you to desire?

"Learning curve vs depth" is important, but you haven't told me anything about what you want from it.

Problematic

So clearly Core has more depth that Accelerated, but what are the gains from that increased complexity?

Because if I were trying to convince one of my players to switch to Core, "it has skills instead of approaches and two stress tracks" isn't very compelling.

BESW

15:49

Okay, first: depth and complexity are not synonymous. That's important to understand if you're working with RPG design. [he said, having no experience with RPG design]

Complexity means it's intricate. Depth means it's profound.

Problematic

"what are the gains of the depth against the cost of increased complexity"

Better?

BESW

Complexity grants you more tools.

If the tools are good for your goals, then complexity grants depth.

For example:

Core increases complexity by adding the mechanic of multiple stress tracks.

This increases depth by allowing more granular exploration of a character's ability to handle difficult situations without taking lasting repercussions.

IE, separating physical and social stress lets you more deeply explore ideas about the difference between physical and social conflict.

Adding a wealth track gives you a tool for entering into wealth-based stories.

If you have no interest in having a game that explores a character's ability to endure different kinds of situations at different levels of proficiency, multiple stress tracks add complexity without adding depth; they become noise.

So ultimately, the FAE/FATE choice boils down to whether FAE provides the tools necessary for the depth you want the game to have.

In order to tell that, you need to have a pretty firm understanding of the game you're developing.

For example: extra options will almost always increase combat turn length. Every time you add complexity, you add variables for people to remember (read: look up) and track (read: argue about because they forgot).

Problematic

So, we've answered the question that I wanted to ask; how do I triage my existing question based on that without risking invalidating some of the very good answers we've received?

BESW

FAE can provide great depth if the tools it supplies are the right ones for the job.

Happily, FAE is designed so that you can add only the bits of Core that you need.

Problematic

(the older I get, the less confidence I have in my writing skills)

BESW

16:01

@Problematic "You will excuse me. I know I am speaking in marvelous accent without the slightest English." - Viktor Frankl

Problematic

Ha.

BESW

So, what is the answer to your triage question?

Problematic

You've described what factors should inform my decision to use Core instead of Accelerated.

BESW

(re: writing: never try to get it right the first time. Just write, and go back and fix it later.)

Problematic

@BESW My logical side says, "Yes, that makes sense." My perfectionist side says, "Naaaaaaaaghhhh... [collapses]"

BESW

16:05

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:53, by BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Following up on @LitheOhm's suggestion about editing, there's an idea in writing (not everyone agrees with it, and it's called by many names) which I like to think of as "voyage out" and "voyage back" (I think Peter Elbow --yes, that's his real name-- coined it thus).

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:54, by BESW

"Voyage out" is where you write. Just write, don't worry about consistency or style or even necessarily making a lot of sense. Just write everything you can about the subject/scene/person/whatever until you feel dry.

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:54, by BESW

"Voyage back" is where you cut away what doesn't work, and edit down what does.

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:54, by BESW

You take a machete (or sometimes a chainsaw) to the dense sprawling jungle that you wrote, and you hack it away and shape it until it's a lovely topiary.

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:54, by BESW

Then you voyage out again.

in RPG General Chat, Apr 12 at 21:55, by BESW

This process gives you both unfettered creativity and total control, by not creating the desire to have both at once.

Problematic

Hrm.

I'll have to give that a try on my next blog post.

BESW

(My mother is a writing professor. Some of it the ink rubs off.)

Problematic

I have mentally edited your second sentence to "some of the ink rubs off"

Because yes.

Win.

BESW

Also, and this is more from the Bahá'í side of my life: thought and study without action is pointless, and action without thought and study is useless.

Study, plan, act, and then reflect on the results of the action in order to direct the next cycle of study/planning/action.

IE: you won't get better at writing without writing, and then figuring out what went right and what went wrong.

Problematic

That's... a principle that I struggle to apply to my life every day.

> If this is not the case, what are the key differences that I should be aware of in my decision-making process as I pick between the two systems for my games? My primary concern is one of whether the added complexity of Core over Accelerated is worth the increased depth that it provides, in terms of storytelling possibilities and narrative pace.

doppelgreener

16:13

@BESW Because it's beautiful.

BESW

@Problematic Definitely. It's not easy; it's something the entire Bahá'i world is struggling to learn about. We call it "adopting a humble posture of learning."

(And yes, we're well aware of the amusing aspects to learning about how to learn.)

@Problematic That's... better?

I think the problem is that you've given yourself two artificial restraints.

First, you don't want to invalidate previous answers. Laudable, and the fact that it's hard to do might mean you should drop this edit and make it a whole new question.

Second, you're trying to keep the concepts broad so the answers are useful to many people.

Again, laudable, but it keeps the question from being about a real problem that you're facing.

The question is too much airy-fairy theory, and it'll get airy-fairy theory answers that aren't useful to many people anyway.

Problematic

[opens mouth, closes it again]

BESW

"My primary concern is one of whether the added complexity of Core over Accelerated is worth the increased depth that it provides, in terms of storytelling possibilities and narrative pace." That's lovely. Now add a sentence saying what you want in terms of those elements.

@JonathanHobbs I think I need a pony.

Problematic

So the sentence I'm adding will be about the requirements I described earlier, then?

BESW

Right.

Problematic

16:20

(I'm racing my 5% battery life right now, so if I drop out suddenly, my apologies)

BESW

Just add that sentence and I think you'll probably have something good!

doppelgreener

@BESW what would you use this pony for?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Cheering.

You needed a pony a few hours ago.

Problematic

No need to thank me.

BESW

....are you sure that's a pony and not a horse?

Problematic

16:25

... I'm almost positive it's a horse.

BESW

"Not good enough, Joe! Not nearly good enough!"

Problematic

Just think of it as "extra-happying"

BESW

Thank you.

Problematic

"You had one job to do!"

> With my group's busy schedules, it's hard to stay engaged in hour-long combat à la D&D, but at the same time, the veteran D&D players of the group appreciate some mechanical depth.

I'm... not sure about that sentence.

Erp, 1%, let me find a cable.

BESW

Say what you want, not what you don't want.

Not "I don't want combat to take an hour," but "I want combat to take half an hour."

Problematic

16:30

Ah, yes.

BESW

Or, yanno, five minutes: everyone declare the kind of actions they're taking, roll the appropriate approach, invoke, and narrate the fight based on the ranked outcomes.

Problematic

ha

> With my group's busy schedules, we prefer quickly-resolved conflicts to drawn out brawls, while maintaining some mechanical depth and flexibility in our narratives.

BESW

Much better.

(I think I just invented Fate Accelerated Super Turbo.)

Problematic

Fate Instant Mix. Just add ~~water~~ dice.

BESW

You gotta have a snappy acronym.

Although FIM is pretty snappy, it's not quite the right tone.

Problematic

16:36

Turn of Fate. Metaaaaa

PearsonArtPhoto

@BESW If you aren't careful, you might get some smart allects trying to figure out how to make your combat last for 2 hours;-)

BESW

@PearsonArtPhoto Eeyup.

Problematic

Do I need a conclusion, or is that paragraph conclusive enough on its own?

BESW

Just leave it at that.

This isn't an essay.

Problematic

Aaand we're done. Thank you very much for your help.

BESW

16:39

Pleasure's mine.

Problematic

I wonder if there's room for a "is Core's complexity worth it" question to elicit your earlier answer without too much overlap

Probably too subjective.

BESW

Definitely.

Problematic

Well, then write about it!

BESW

When and where?

Problematic

.... yes, yes.

I'll figure that out, but first, work.

Adieu.

BESW

16:48

ttfn

Problematic

17:30

I joined the Fate G+ group. It's... active.

PearsonArtPhoto

18:13

So, the more I read through Fate Core, the more I think they need a FAE detailed.

Something on the order of 100 pages or so...

FAE is simple enough, but isn't well explained. Fate Core is more complex, and includes a bit too much detail.

A happy medium would be perfect:-)

Problematic

18:54

I need to read through FAE again.

BESW

21:44

@Problematic Modes do sound pretty ideal for High Noon.

Problematic

22:10

Can allow customizability without opening the board entirely

Transcript for

Fate chat and game room