Discussion on question by Trish: Fighting answers in comments!

Mithrandir

07:30

On the other hand, just reading this it seems like once again the SFF meta community is complaining about an "outsider" coming in with a complaint. I happen to agree with @Trish that answers in comments are actively harmful. If you disagree, you disagree, but argue that point rationally instead of falling back on "you're new and haven't learned the way we do it".

3

Answers posted as comments:

* can't be downvoted

This means that the only way to counteract incorrect information posted as an answer-comment is by adding another comment, which will almost inevitably lead to a discussion happening on the question itself, when the discussion is about an "answer", not the question.

* are misleading to people not as familiar with the SE system

When you Google a question and come across a SE question, and you see that people are posting things that answer the question in the comment section, that is actively harmful to any attempt made towards teaching people that SE is not a typical internet forum, where people just... post responses to the original post. If there's no clear distinction between answers and comments, new users will inevitably think that they are interchangeable / may not even realize there's a difference.

* subvert the reputation system

You can't get rep from a comment and you can't lose rep from a comment. This means that when you post an answer as a comment, you are not only missing out on the upvotes if it's a good answer, this is providing a way for people to provide sub-standard answers (or incorrect answers) without worrying about being downvoted. This is bad for site health and the reputation of the site, if people can provide bad answers without getting downvoted. Downvotes are an integral part of the quality system.

* aren't searchable

Comments don't show up in site search for a reason: They're not supposed to contain anything important for very long. Anything relevant should be edited into the question (or, for comments on an answer, the answer). If there's an answer in a comment that's not provided in an actual answer, that means that people who want to find this answer for whatever reason will have a very hard time doing so.

* aren't editable

Part of what makes the SE system work is that posts can be edited to improve them, either by the OP or... anyone else. This is also an integral part of maintaining high-quality content. When things can't be edited, that means we lose that integral part of our quality control.

* can't be accepted

If an answer in the comments provides a satisfactory answer for the OP, the OP has no way of accepting this "answer"... because it's not an answer, it's a comment. This is detrimental to both the asker and answerer - they both lose out on rep; and this also is harmful for story-ID questions.

* push other things down on the page

This can include other comments which are using comments as they are intended - asking for clarification / more details or suggesting improvement - or the people who took the time to use the site as intended and write a proper answer.

People say that comments are a good place to put things that they don't have the time or inclination to make an actual answer. If that's the case, wait until you can post it. Questions don't need an immediate answer. It's not worth subverting the entire reason that SO/SE was created - to avoid forum-like discussions - to get that half-baked idea out quickly. Just wait until either you can write a full answer, or, maybe, let someone else answer.

It's kinda big-headed to go "Only I can answer this question. Nobody else could possibly know the answer to this question. But I don't have the time right now, so I'll just slap together a half-baked answer and put it into a comment to avoid downvotes." Because, really... it is extremely rare that only a single person would be able to provide an answer to a question here.

TheLethalCarrot

08:08

@Mithrandir To be honest that isn't how this discussion has gone at all by how I've read it. Though a big part of the argument is that they are new and haven't learnt about the community. That does need to be addressed so brushing it off as "SFF vs outsiders" isn't fair.

@Mithrandir This is just a general argument against comments in general and not at all specific to answers as comments

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot No, it's an argument against useless comments, of which answers in comments are a prime example.

TheLethalCarrot

Well all comments push things down a page so I don't see how it is specific at all

Mithrandir

> This can include other comments which are using comments as they are intended - asking for clarification / more details or suggesting improvement

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir So you'd rather potentially lose good information (forget to come back, discussion died down when they do, etc.) than a quick comment, no ta

Mithrandir

18 mins ago, by Mithrandir

It's kinda big-headed to go "Only I can answer this question. Nobody else could possibly know the answer to this question. But I don't have the time right now, so I'll just slap together a half-baked answer and put it into a comment to avoid downvotes." Because, really... it is extremely rare that only a single person would be able to provide an answer to a question here.

TheLethalCarrot

08:17

That's not big headed at all, it is helping people because the information is there whether obvious or not

Plus no one is saying "I'm leaving a quick comment because only I know the answer", no they're saying "I'll leave this partial answer/related information here because it will help the OP and others to come to an answer whether they know this information or not"

What happened to the good ol' SE standard of assume best intentions eh?

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot The problem with intentions is that, someone might have the best intentions in the world, but that won't stop people from taking something as rude, or that someone writing an answer as a comment, which could be wrong, only people aren't aware it's wrong, while if it had been written as an answer, this could have been properly addressed (although, sure, this is one rather particular example, albeit one I saw very recently)

Good intentions are great, but they're not everything

Trish

@Mithrandir24601 THIS is one of the main parts why answers in comments are such a bane: they are not correctable or directly adressable.

TheLethalCarrot

Not saying they are, just that saying someone posted it as a comment because they're big-headed isn't the right attitude

@Mithrandir24601 Is the rude thing in general or answers in comments because if the latter that isn't rude at all

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot Let's turn the horse around: hat positive effects are you thinking does answering in comments have?

TheLethalCarrot

And on the it can only be addressed if it was an answer is simply wrong, you can reply to the comment. That happens all over the network

Mithrandir24601

08:32

@TheLethalCarrot Oh, that was just a general example of why intentions aren't everything

TheLethalCarrot

Just double checking

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot you can not answer to one specific comment. You add a comment on the question, which might have 3 or 4 comments by the same.

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish And as I've said above it's trivial to make it clear what comment you're replying too

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot Also, chat is not for extended discussion, that is what chat is for. like thi one

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot Only, it gets lost in the midst of all other comments when people assume that the answer posted as a comment is right and so upvote it and ignore the other comments (again, this is exactly what I saw on WB yesterday)

Trish

08:33

@TheLethalCarrot it is not.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir24601 That's a problem with users being lazy not answers in comments. The same problem affects people going top answer must be correct no point reading on...

@Trish Quote part of the comment, link to the comment etc.

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot You can't downvote comments though. It's also not immediately obvious that someone 'commented' on a comment, unless you read the whole chain

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot quoting a typical comment leaves one with less than 200 characters

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish Depends how you do it, I've been easily able to reply to a specific comment on multiple occasions and have plenty room to say what I need to say

Mithrandir24601

I agree that, on SFF, someone getting told that the wrong answer is correct isn't going to be the worst thing ever, but we're also a Q&A site, so giving someone the wrong answer and telling them it's right is really bad

2

TheLethalCarrot

08:38

Any information can be wrong and highly upvoted, answer or comment alike. Sure we can't downvote comments but if something has enough upvotes that people take it as fact the few downvotes it'll get as an answer won't combat that anyway

Just look at old questions on SO for examples of this

Mithrandir

That... doesn't change that comments can't be downvoted at all.

TheLethalCarrot

And I never said it did

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot aand the comment does stay in those case. It remains to clutter, make people see it, then read the wrong answer, think "I read that before in this context" and then upvote the wrong answer. In this way, it becomes a sublimial message!

TheLethalCarrot

To be honest I think you're fighting this the wrong way though. Comments should be able to be downvoted, even clarification ones.

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot A comment having say 5 upvotes can be quite a lot on your average question. An answer getting 5 upvotes, a few downvotes and a couple of clearly noticeable comments saying that the answer is wrong is something else. Oh also, that wrong comment will be the first thing you see after the question, while the wrong answer will be somewhere nearer the bottom of the page

TheLethalCarrot

08:41

@Trish And that can happen with correct and incorrect comments alike. You can't tailor a situation to only incorrect comments to prove a point

Please keep this calm and civil

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot Why? You're then starting to turn them into something more permanent and designed to act like an answer, instead of something temporary designed to act as the thing we have for clarification and trying to improve posts

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish In return I ask you to read how our community uses comments. Remember different communities have different rules and cultures. Not every community is the same

Mithrandir24601

If you make comments into something more permanent (which includes allowing for answers, yes), then what do you use as something temporary?

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot You tell all the time answering with Status Quo and "It's not a matter". I tell you it is a matter of a habit broken in, a habit that devalues answers in favor of comments. and your suggestion is to try to either turn all the comments into answer-alikes, taking away the comments as the SE intended them and explained them via Help Page..

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot We kinda can, because this is part of the problem...

TheLethalCarrot

08:46

@Mithrandir24601 Well no you're not making them more permanent at all. Just adding a feature to DV them

@Mithrandir24601 But if you alter to fix the problem you affect everything not just what you was trying to fix. You must think about everything and the bigger picture

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot ... Adding a feature to DV comments doesn't do much to make them more permanent... Allowing answers in comments very much does

TheLethalCarrot

Well no it doesn't, I'v had "answer comments" deleted as obsolete

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot No, because we haven't changed anything, we're trying to keep it exactly as intended

TheLethalCarrot

Intended here means doing things as they are currently

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot Good - every answer as a comment should be deleted

TheLethalCarrot

08:49

Intended elsewhere may be different aye

@Mithrandir24601 Not necessarily

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot No, that's not want 'intended' means...

TheLethalCarrot

Well SFF rules/community standards intends for them to be okay. As has been said for various issues in various communities: communities can shape SE rules to their needs

Mithrandir

...to an extent.

TheLethalCarrot

Right and our "extent" works perfectly fine here

I've only ever seen a handful of users saying it doesn't namely you three and maybe a couple of others. Everyone else sees it is working well

If there is a problem can you find an example rather than the hypothetical?

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot Every single answer as a comment

Mithrandir

08:54

What do you mean? As I said above, they inherently are problematic. Having them around is a problem. The problem shows every time one is posted (such as not being able to vote on them).

Mithrandir24601

Yeah, that ^

@TheLethalCarrot And I've only seen a handful of users saying that it's not a problem

TheLethalCarrot

Lol, so no actual example okay.

@Mithrandir24601 Look at the votes on the linked meta and come back to me on that

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot As I said - every comment as an answer ever posted

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot I gave you... 7 bullet points that explain the issue with them. Those can be seen on about every single answer-comment posted.

TheLethalCarrot

If you have an example of a problem and the actual problem caused come back to me until then there is no point in continuing this

Mithrandir

08:58

"you can't vote on it" applies to every single comment like that. So does "you can't edit them". Find any answer in a comment, and you will have that example of a problem.

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot I see four people saying that it's acceptable and the rest believing them

@TheLethalCarrot Um, see all of Mith's points above

TheLethalCarrot

Votes indicate more than comments, no point repeating information

If you're unwilling to show me an example and the active harm it is causing then good day to you sirs

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot On the other hand, look at the votes at e.g. Please don't write answers in comments if you want to see votes in the other direction (albeit not on SFF, but the points in the question apply to everywhere).

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot Ah, so can I point you to all of the main meta posts on comments then, that tell you the downvoters here are misguided?

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Different site, different culture/rules so not applicable

@Mithrandir24601 ^

Mithrandir24601

09:00

@TheLethalCarrot every single answer as a comment

Mithrandir

It's still SE. The same architecture, system, and broad rules as to how the system works (and was built to work).

TheLethalCarrot

And at that, I leave the discussion bows

Mithrandir

I want to say that in the game Knights of the Old Republic the character Mission Vao makes an offhand comment on the smell of Zaalbar at some point. But it has been a long time since I've played and aren't sure if, when, or what was actually said. — Xantec Jun 4 at 16:36

Can't be edited. Can't be voted on. Wold be downvoted if posted as an answer.

TheLethalCarrot

That clearly is not an answer as the commenter is unsure themself

Mithrandir

It is an answer, as it attempts to answer the question asked. It is not a good answer, and would be downvoted if that were possible.

That is not conductive to the goal of SE - to create and maintain a repository of high-quality questions and answers, and not to be a discussion forum.

TheLethalCarrot

09:03

No it's information that may or may not be an answer

They're saying an answer may be found here, I can't check, maybe someone else can

Mithrandir

Does that comment fit with the way comments were intended to be used?

TheLethalCarrot

Here? yes

Mithrandir

No.

It is most certainly not what comments are supposed to be used for on SE.

TheLethalCarrot

Well you're moving away from SFF again. We're talking about solely SFF here not the broad standards set out by SE that can be moulded by a particular site

Mithrandir

There's a limit to how far you can stretch that. You can't claim that this is the intended use of this feature on this site, when the software itself tells you that this is not what it's for.

And... SFF is a part of SE, and as such is expected to broadly work with the way the system works.

TheLethalCarrot

09:07

Right and that "limit" works fine here

I have yet to see a comment answer actively causing the harm you state it does

Mithrandir

Even Puzzling, the site that stretches things very far, still stays within that question and answer boundary.

@TheLethalCarrot Do comment answers help the mission of the site in any way?

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot You know that messages like this (followed by not actually leaving the discussion) are passive-agressive and belittling, right?

Mithrandir

Are comment-answers actually a benefit to the site in any way?

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Yes they leave information for others to turn into an answer with more time

@Mithrandir24601 I didn't leave because I said I would return when an example was brought forth as happened straight afterwards

Mithrandir

How often does that actually happen? Really. Most of the time, they're just... left there.

TheLethalCarrot

09:11

Most of the time I see a comment answer it is turned into an answer, whether by the person who commented or not

The comment is likely left because no one flagged it yet

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot ... As is "Lol, so no actual example okay."

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot That's not what I see.

More often, they're just left there, with the problems I listed earlier.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir A broad query, there's got to be a high percentage of flase positives there

Mithrandir

If comments as answers are acceptable, what differentiates Scifi.SE from the way, say, Reddit, works?

(I say without knowing how Reddit works, but let's set that aside for now :P)

I don't deny that they can be useful in some cases. But, for me, the downsides outweigh the benefits.

And not just for me - for the SE software that SFF runs on as well.

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot let's put it to the extreme: WE don'T write answes anymore but only comments, because that is what you do fight for. You want to make answers and comments equal, or that is how you fight for the rght to answer in comments. If we don't policy ourselves to uphold the rules as laid out by the SE (which say: No answers in comments. Write answer instead.), they can, at any point come in and crack down, taking over all the community mods and shutting it off.

the very first example n the linked querry: What are Sam Beckett's educational qualifications? - He had PHDs in stepping into quantum leap accelerators and in vanishing. – Doctor Two Jul 6 '17 at 9:50

TheLethalCarrot

09:18

@Trish I don't want to make answers and comments equal. People will never stop writing answers, gamification is just too great. Also where does it say SE will shut down a community because they wrote answers in comments?

Trish

answer in commetns, even if that one is not meant straight. It is a (BAD) answer in comments.

@TheLethalCarrot they did shut down sites with bad attitudes before.

TheLethalCarrot

Bad attitude =/= answers in comments

@Trish That seems like a joke to me not an answer

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot answer in comments is a bad attitude. not all bad attitudes are answers in comments, but all answers in comments are bad attitude.

TheLethalCarrot

Well they aren't, you may perceive them as such (as do the Miths) but they aren't really a bad attitude at all

Trish

then give me reasons they are benefitial. I asked you that 2 times before.

Mithrandir24601

09:21

@TheLethalCarrot SE doesn't see it that way

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish It's hard to have a threeway conversation plus talking elsewhere, working and monitoring the site

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot I mean... that is a bit of an extreme example, but SE will shut down a site when it is no longer capable of taking care of moderation tasks. I doubt answers in comments are enough to get to that point - and I doubt that SFF would get shut down at all - but deciding not to uphold an overarching rule of SE is a step that most sites don't really want to take.

Trish

@Mithrandir24601 in fact, SE has a rule, one that I quoted, that says it is NOT OK

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir I have said before that we discourage them, we just don't see it as that bad of a thing. It's not like answers are stopping because of comments and it isn't like they won't get deleted if flagged.

Mithrandir

@Trish While I appreciate your enthusiasm on this, perhaps tone it down a bit? It's better to have a constructive discussion over yelling - that just makes it less likely that people will listen to what you're saying.

Trish

09:23

@Mithrandir exactly. Claiming Answers in Comments are ok is the first nail in the coffin, showing that the stack is not working

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish This stack is clearly working at the moment

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Actually, yes, I have had flags declined like that before...

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Well moderators are human, make mistakes etc. You know the drill

Also judgement call per comment

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot You still owe me at least one reason, why an answer in comments would be positive. All your arguments boil down to "But it's status quo". My arguments are "It disrespects the OP", "It violates the community standards (The Stack ones)" and some more.

TheLethalCarrot

1. I don't _owe_ you anything
2. It isn't disrespectful _at all_
3. If you want a reason I provided one on the meta straight away - I'd rather have information in a comment than lose it all together

Oh forgot markdown doesn't work with multiline comments

Mithrandir

09:27

And I provided seven reasons why they're bad...

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot you did not provide an answer... oh wait, you did instead lock it as a dupe it is not.

TheLethalCarrot

Why they're potentially bad... I have yet to see these actively causing harm in practice

Mithrandir

@Trish can you please cut back on the snark a bit? thanks

TheLethalCarrot

@Trish I just gave you a comment on why they're good, also Edge gave you an answer

No point me just reiterating what he has said

Trish

@Mithrandir sorry but... he is rotating in circles fighting all the arguments with the same argument "But status Quo..."

TheLethalCarrot

09:30

@Trish To be fair to me there's only so many arguments and you three are all using the same reasons again and again...

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot you did not. I can't find it. I asked you "What is positive about them" and you said "Status Quo"

TheLethalCarrot

> 3. If you want a reason I provided one on the meta straight away - I'd rather have information in a comment than lose it all together

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Because you're not countering them.

TheLethalCarrot

I just said it above

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot I'd disagree there - 1. Isn't a point (although, I'm not saying it's wrong or anything), 2. is a disagreement with one of the reasons that they're bad (so, isn't a reason that they're good), 3. That's making the assumption that you're the only person who knows/can find that information

TheLethalCarrot

09:31

@Mithrandir24601 I was replying to the comment not points they're good

On 3 it isn't making that assumption, it's making it easier for others

Mithrandir

So far, I count 7 reasons given for why they're bad and 1 reason for why they're good...

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot Fact Check: Do you honestly believe, that my matter, the point that answers in comments are a bad thing, is the same as the question "Are there any reasons to answer in comments?"

TheLethalCarrot

Yes,
1. New user to the community may not know how we use comments, the dupe explains that
2. Any answer to your question would explain how we use them, see answer on dupe

Mithrandir

"how we use them" != "why they're a good thing"

Mithrandir24601

@TheLethalCarrot I don't really see how - generally I'd say that it's either helpful enough to be an answer, or not actually helpful, but I really need to go now

(or rather, I should have gone ages ago :/ )

TheLethalCarrot

09:36

Ciao :)

Trish

Uhm...
1. New users are barred frm comments until they have 20 rep.
2. As the discussion showed: no, there are 7 strong point that say "Comments are not for answers"

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir24601 It can be helpful enough for starting point of an answer or useful for an answer without being enough information to make up an answer in its own right

Mithrandir24601

Bye all!

Mithrandir

@Trish (50 rep, BTW)

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot if it would be helpful enough for an answer, then Make it an answer and flag as obsolete. If it is useless, make an answer and show why, then flag as obsolete.

TheLethalCarrot

09:38

@Trish So the comment was fine before the answer was posted? I'm glad we agree

@Trish 7 reasons why they may be a bad thing. I have yet to see these actually be actively harmful in practice though. Theories are good and everything but if they only stay a theory then well... y'know

As for point 1 that was about you not in general

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot no, it was not fine. I is still an answer in a comment, but everyone can fight the bad habit by putting the torch to them and weeding them out.

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot No, it's not, for the reasons illustrated above.

@TheLethalCarrot How is "they can't be voted on" purely theoretical?

Trish

I just outlined how you might keep the information even as they are in a very bad place.

Diamonds can convert answers to comments, but not the other way round iirc.

Mithrandir

(right)

Trish

so we can't just flag the stuff as "AiC" and get our answers to comment on, to sort and weed through. Which would be point 8: While we can turn non-information/confirmation/me-too answers into comments, we can't turn the Answers-in-Comments back into proper answers.

@TheLethalCarrot try this: scifi.stackexchange.com/unanswered yes, the unanswered queue. Check the comment streams... all of them try to answer, none does. Noone ever wrote an answer.

TheLethalCarrot

10:01

@Mithrandir That was a general comment to everything not just one point. But it is hypothetical in the harm it causes in a sense

@Trish Well we can, just not automatically

@Trish A lot of story ids there, they're already a bit of a special case around here and are treated differently

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot which is why I called out to fight the habit. Working on turning the good comments into proper answers and weeding out the bad ones. What were my last words on the starting post? The caption is "do your part" and "make this a better place".

TheLethalCarrot

To be honest I found your meta post a bit agrresive, I think you'd have been better received if you enquired into why SFF was like this and then ask us not to do it. At the moment it comes across as No SFF, naughty, do what I say

@Trish Asking us to turn good comments into proper answers is also something, I think, we can all agree on should be done

Maybe lead with that?

Trish

@TheLethalCarrot that should be the top ranking Answer to my call out, yes. That we should convert them to proper answers, discussing the merits of them (and possibly give credit) is what we should do as a community. But "Leave em there, it's status Quo" is the lazy aproach.

TheLethalCarrot

I never said leave 'em there, I said they're in the first place

Trish

your whole argument revolved around "it's status quo"

TheLethalCarrot

10:08

Correct

And it still is

To be honest I think your call out should be "can we turn these answers in comments into actual answers?" rather than don't answer in comments

Mithrandir

That won't address the root problem, though, which is that people do answer in comments.

TheLethalCarrot

1. Not a problem in my opinion
2. You get further in addressing the "problem" if you engage with the community rather than telling them off

Mithrandir

10:37

This here illustrates an issue with answers in comments: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/125029/… This has lead to an extended discussion in the comments about that "answer".

TheLethalCarrot

11:01

On worldbuilding but I'll have a look...

Th problem with that appears to be the discussion rather than the answer as a comment. That discussion would have occurred in the comments no matter where it was posted and so the same problem

Mithrandir

11:37

@TheLethalCarrot No; if it was an answer the discussion would have taken place on the answer, instead of on the question, which also floods the OP's inbox about an "answer" that someone put in the wrong place.

TheLethalCarrot

But the problem is the discussion, not the comment. Discussions can happen on a question with or without comment answers

Mithrandir

But answers in the comments invite that discussion.

TheLethalCarrot

And answers invite that discussion too, as long as we have comments discussion is always invited

Mithrandir

But the discussion about the validity of an answer should not be taking place on the question.

It should be taking place on the answer.

TheLethalCarrot

Maybe, maybe not but like I said the problem with that example is the discussion not where it takes place, not what started it, the discussion

Mithrandir

11:45

...huh? No, it's the other way around.

ArtOfCode

Discussing whether or not an answer is valid is a perfectly okay use of comments, but not on the question.

Mithrandir

ohai Art

ArtOfCode

o/

Mithrandir

That discussion should never have taken place on the question, because the thing that started the discussion should never have been posted on the question.

It should have been written in the place designed for it: an answer.

Also, the discussion might not have even happened then, because if it were an answer people would be able to just downvote, which is not an option on comments.

TheLethalCarrot

I don't know enough about worldbuilding to comment properly but they do seem okay with answers in comments. The comment doesn't really appear to be enough for an answer though, merely starting point, whether for the user themself or someone else

Jenayah

11:51

Wait, which discussion. The one we're having now or the Worldbuilding moon thing one?

TheLethalCarrot

WB moon

Jenayah

ok

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir From my reading of it none of the discussion comments would have led to a downvote

(If it were an answer)

Though I only skimmed it

Mithrandir

As I said earlier, a "starting point" isn't really what comments are supposed to be used for either.

TheLethalCarrot

Maybe not on some sites, here we use them for that

Mithrandir

11:58

And I'm arguing that we shouldn't be.

TheLethalCarrot

I know you are

Mithrandir

And I agree with Trish that "this is the way we've always done it" isn't really a valid argument.

3

TheLethalCarrot

Well it is but anyway I haven't seen any harm come of these that you claim there is

No harm was really caused on the WB example

The discussion maybe but that's unrelated to where the comment was

Mithrandir

How can you claim that a discussion about a comment happening where it shouldn't is unrelated to where the comment was left? That makes absolutely no sense to me, sorry.

TheLethalCarrot

I'm claiming the discussion would have happened anywhere the comment was posted, comment or answer

Mithrandir

12:06

Yes, and having it on an answer would be perfectly fine. Having it happen on the question is absolutely not fine.

That would be a perfectly valid use of comments, to critique an answer. But not critiquing an answer on the question.

TheLethalCarrot

Would 15 comments be fine? I thought comments shouldn't be used for extended discussion? Or is extended discussion now fine on an answer?

Mithrandir

Extended discussion != discussion. Critiquing an answer is fine in comments, extended discussions should indeed be brought to chat.

And yes, critiquing that answer would be fine, if the answer was where it was supposed to be.

TheLethalCarrot

15 comments is extended discussion, or have you moved away from the example to general again now?

Mithrandir

It's a few too many to be fine on an answer. It's 15 too many on the question.

TheLethalCarrot

Well I disagree, that comment wasn't really an answer but a starting point/some information related to an answer. It should never have been an answer so a comment is the perfect place for it... however, can we get back to SFF now? I'm not familiar enough with WB to know how they feel about this sort of behaviour

Mithrandir

12:15

It's not about WB, it's an example of why such a comment is harmful, no matter what site it is.

TheLethalCarrot

Harmful to whom? I see no harm there bar except maybe a few notifications in someones inbox

Mithrandir

You don't consider that discussion taking place on the question inherently harmful?

TheLethalCarrot

No, why would it be? What actual harm is it doing? All I can tell is someone got some notifications you don't think should have gotten

Mithrandir

The discussion had no right being there. It goes against the way SE is supposed to work. I consider subverting the system inherently harmful.

TheLethalCarrot

There is no subverting the system. It goes against one rule and that's it. Rules which are generally moulded by a community to how they want to use them.

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Mithrandir

12:31

You are literally told every single time you go to post a comment on a question that answers in comments don't belong. It's important enough to be a hard rule in the software itself. Writing comments as answers is inherently against what makes SE what it is, in addition to having the problems I listed 5 hours ago because the system was designed to not allow them.

I really don't think that's very customizable per-site.

TheLethalCarrot

Something in the software way back when. SO is one of the worst for comment answers nowadays. If SE had a problem with them they'd do something about it, as it is it happens constantly on the biggest site and happens elsewhere too... it isn't this massive problem you're making it out to be

But we're going round in circles, I have nothing new to say at the moment and if you don't either there's no point continuing this

Mithrandir

They do "do something about it" - they make it very clear that this is not desired behavior. "other people break the rules" is not an excuse.

TheLethalCarrot

I never said it was an excuse....

But as I said, not much point continuing this

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot You just used "it happens all the time" as a justification.

TheLethalCarrot

No I said it happens all the time, don't read into words I didn't say

Skooba

12:49

@Trish by your own logic you should not have been pinging people in comments about the behavior because under the "when shouldn't I comment" heading is the following: Discussion of community behavior or site policies; please use meta instead. -- If you were "following the rules" like you want the rest of the community to do, you would have posted your question on meta and stopped there.

2

Its almost as if beyond things being rude or abusive, the rules can be subjective per each community... throws on best Barbossa accent "is more what you'd call guidelines".

Sure if you want to flag all the "answers in comments" you come across, that is fine. I'm reasonably sure they will be marked as helpful as well. Obsolete comments get flagged and removed all the time. I would also argue that many of the comments would not survive as actual answers.

Which you could argue is the point, the answer will get down-voted and probably deleted. But to remove content that could actually be useful, typically acting as signpost for other users to start research into a full answer, is not helpful either.

@Mithrandir or more like a community being defensive about someone saying "YOU ARE WRONG! YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR BEING WRONG"

user132126

13:12

The hypothetical "harms" being discussed here are nothing more than scare tactics that have been proven wrong by the health of our site and quality of our answers. Continuing to use "subversion" arguments regarding how we operate is disingenuous. I don't believe it's coming from a place of what's best for our community, but seeing what can be the most literal interpretation of guidelines or continue to eat away at what community and uniqueness our 8 year history has to offer.

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Trish

@Skooba that is ALL I get btw...

Skooba

@Trish You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting to flag and remove those comments as I mentioned, but you can't expect the whole community to share that opinion.

You fired shots and got a return salvo. I'm not really sure what you were expecting.

Mast

Everybody calm down for a moment, ok?

ArtOfCode

^ that

this is the second set of flags I've shown up here for

Skooba

Yeah when Moderators are getting flagged something is amiss

Mithrandir

13:23

@Skooba On the other hand, leveling accusations such as "...inflate someone's pedantic pride the most..." isn't really optimal either, and is actually pretty offensive.

Skooba

@Mithrandir I didn't specify what was amiss. Please don't make assumptions. Moderators getting flagged is a problem. period. Blame can come from either party.

Mithrandir

Anybody getting flagged means that there's an issue; that's not limited to mods being flagged. Offensive messages being flagged means that the system works.

Skooba

@Mithrandir I not going into that debate as it is not relevant to the overall discussion here.

Trish

14:10

@Skooba I had pointed to a problem. A problem that people don't seem to see at one. But what I perceived has valid points as it seems. But people will be people. my main point is still: "If it can be an answer, it should not be a comment." Where to draw the line indeed is fuzzy, but we have to draw it. We should all work on getting that fixed, either by incorporating the comments into answers, or by wiping the unnecessary ones clean.

Trish

14:22

@Skooba the "It pointed people to their bad habbits" kind of correct is the hardest to endure... on both sides. Seems like I put on the Jester's Cap and got the flog.

TheLethalCarrot

It's not necessarily a bad habit and it's how you approached the "issue" that made you "get the flog" (if I'm understanding correctly what you meant here)

Rand al'Thor

17:22

I haven't taken much part in this discussion - and hopefully it's now dying down - but I want to drop one link which I think is very relevant. (Ironically, from unnumbered-Mith's mod site by one of his co-mods.)

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A: Let's follow official Stack Exchange policy regarding comments

I'm going to ignore Stack precedent for a moment, and come back to it in a minute - it's not enough to say, "this is Stack policy," without investigating whether and why it might make sense to apply in this context. I'm not typically one to blindly follow policy, especially not when it asks me to...

> So the question I ask when I see it flagged is pretty straightforward: does this comment, right now, contain something valuable? And it clearly does: both for anyone passing through, but especially for someone trying to develop a full answer, it provides a signpost that gives a direction in which to start heading. That's valuable.

> But it's especially valuable on a site where answers are often hard to build. It's especially valuable when these kinds of connections are not ones even any mythical expert is necessarily going to see. And up until someone posts an answer that develops the po…

4

> Even that equivocation aside, we as a site can't blindly follow Stack policies. We have to be judicious about what we do and why. We are both different and unique as a site in many ways, and much of the Stack framework (and existing policy) was not set up, and will not work for us. When considering whether that policy is helpful to apply, we need to look not just at what policy says, but why it says that, to see whether it makes sense here.

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user132126

17:43

Re: the last edit on the question, Meta is for discussion, per the help "file": "Meta Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange is the part of the site where users discuss the workings and policies of Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange rather than discussing science fiction or fantasy itself." See: What is "meta"? How does it work?.

user132126

If that conversation had gone on like that on main, I'd be inclined to agree, but we need to be able to have discussions on meta, because simply posting answers in reply to ideas doesn't work. But when they get long, it is better to move them to chat so that the comments don't overtake the other discussions that could be going on re:meta.

Transcript for

Discussion on question by Trish: Figh…