@amWhy I find this remark a bit surprising. For the excuses I even said "I also understand that there is some danger in my argument as it can lead to basically doing nothing."

@quid Exactly. I doubt your have as much invested in this question as I do. And you seem to show it. These studies are largely based on social science, not just standardized math testing. What experience do you have, @quid, in interpreting social science research?

@amWhy which studies?

@quid Well you seem to know everything about comparison between educating boys and girls separately, vs. educating them together. or so you summarized in one sentence. Which studies support that? Or is that the word of mouth you adopted to come back at folks like me??

I do not claim any expertise at all. I shared the admittedly superficial observation that in the somewhat recent past there seems to be some trend back to separate education.

And not coming from some fringe conservatives.

@quid That thought never crossed my mind.

What is your opinion on this?

@quid I really am wiped out, but I'd like to pick up this conversation, @quid. I have no illusions that the problem is simply the result of the educational system, at whatever level. But I am really wiped out and don't have the energy to think so intensely right now. But I would like to pick this up again. Right now I could use some fun!!

@quid BING!

@amWhy BONG!

@quid BANG!

@amWhy BUNG

Oh forgot !

Happy 4th people!!!!

Well at least it's the 4th of July in India 😅

^^^^ Meant to go along with BANG! @quid, and all. (The fireworks image above.

@quid You lose!! :P

@sai-kartik In 4-5 hours, it will be in the US, too.

@amWhy you missed BENG

@sai-kartik You mean BENG!! :-)

@amWhy oh well. Very strict rules today.

@amWhy yeah😅

@quid My game this time around! :P

@amWhy I accept my defeat. This time. But, I'll get revenge. Mark my words. :-)

@quid I agree that underrepresentation is a symptom, rather than the root issue. However, there is also something of a chicken-and-egg problem. Because there are few women in the upper echelons of mathematics, young women who might have an interest in the field don't see a lot of role models. Moreover, there is a lot of cultural pressure telling them that women aren't any good at math, so the lack of women at the top levels reinforces that stereotype.

@quid Oooh, I trembling. But bring it on, buddy!! :-)

One way to counter that narrative is to have more women in math. That is far from a complete solution, but the very low numbers of women (and people of color, for that matter) is more than just a symptom of an underlying problem.

That being said, I am very much opposed to quota systems, or points-based system which give members of underrepresented groups an edge. I think that these kinds of solutions tend to be self-defeating---women who get accepted into programs (or offered jobs) where such systems are in place are often dismissed because of the (incorrect) assumption that they got the placement (or job) "just because they were a member of an underrepresented class."

My preferred solution is to boost recruitment.

@XanderHenderson And to do this, among other measures, we need to make mathematics more hospitable to women, and we need to make sites like math.se more hospitable to women.

For a concrete proposal, how about this: let's find the five top young women in the local high schools. Look for the students who can get some letters of recommendation, who have done well in their classes, and who show a desire to go into mathematics. Offer them a full scholarship for four years of undergraduate education, on the condition that they participate in recruitment activities---have them talk to girl scouts, high school classes, etc.

Make it, say, a 20 hour per semester requirement of the the scholarship.

Now, suddenly, there are a much larger number of young women who have role models. In principle, if one does this every year for a while, you should start to see a return on the investment, in that you will have more young women who apply to the program, because they suddenly have role models.

@amWhy Absolutely.

@XanderHenderson I'm with you.

@amWhy is there a difference in the actions that should be taken "to make sites like math.se more hospitable" and "to make sites like math.se more hospitable to women"? I don't mean this as a provocation. I am genuinely interested if there is in your opinion.

I need some help with the basics of Fourier series, is anybody interested in it?

@quid On Math SE, I am not sure that there are any big changes that are going to be of much use (though I am sure that @amWhy has a much better perception of things than I), but I would a small step would be to get people to stop using "Sir" as a default salutation. I am almost convinced that a if a user tries to use "Sir" in a comment, question, or answer, a tooltip should pop up saying something to the effect of:

> It appears that you may be using "Sir" in reference to another user. Please keep in mind that not all of the users of this site are male, or use masculine pronouns.

Ugh... typos. That should have said "but I would suggest that a small step would be..."

The words "bro", "bruh", "brah", and "dude" should get similar treatment, but I think that such a step make Math SE better for everyone, not just women, nonbinary folks, etc. :)

Indeed that's something that came to mind. I think overall "Sir" is not really well-liked on the site. On the extreme end I recall a male user getting very upset for being called "Sir".

I agree that an extreme under-representation is a problem.

@amWhy do you still have the links by any chance? :)

@OmarS , what links?

@Arjun The papers @amWhy published

@sai-kartik , all of them?

i want them too

@Arjun idk ask @OmarS

@Arjun yea same here

@XanderHenderson Very good point!!

@sai-kartik yes, exactly

@amWhy rereading the exchange from yesterday I realize that my comment with "disparity" is phrased in a way that is likely to be misunderstood. What I meant to say is that it can be difficult to judge what one should do (individually or collectively) in a context where recommendations of experts seem to change over relatively short periods of time and in a way that the recommendations are opposed. I mentioned the questions of the merits of educating girls and boys together vs separate....

@quid I understand.

...as an example of this. It seems to be the case that over a just a couple of decades one transititioned from "it is good to do it speparate" to "of course it needs to be together" to "doing it together is not always good maybe it should be separate." I personally do not have any expertise about that question, but that's the impression I got. However, what I did not mean to say is "whatever one tries the outcomes show a difference of ability." I don't believe that...

...and (therefore) it did not readily occur to me that one could read the comment in that way too. But rereading I can see how one might. But that was not at all what I meant to say. @amWhy

@quid I didn't know quite how to take it, but I didn't take you to be arguing that there was some sort of inherent difference in ability. I mean, we all know I'm inherently more gifted than you :P ;D

@amWhy indeed you outshine me like the sun outshines the moon. :-)

happy saturday@quid, @amWhy

@Arjun so ja bhai koi nhi hai

@user69608 , are you not aware that it's roughly mid day in US?

@Arjun par koi online to nhi hai na abhi

@user69608 , you are new here, everyone is online, they are either busy or cannot reply now ;)

@Arjun ok :):

click on my avatar, it shows, that my last message was posted this time ago, last seen etc

@user69608

@Arjun ok ok i know

gn

@user69608 , sleep well ;-)

@XanderHenderson, do you by any means know about the schrodinger wave equation?

Or hamiltonian operator?

@Arjun I mean, I've studied such things, but it has been a long time.

@XanderHenderson , i approached many teachers to understand the equation but all of them shove me off. i mean i know partial derivatives and maybe able to get hold of schrodinger equation

maybe Professor X, will help^_~

Kl kapoor padhna bhai agar atomic structure ke liye chahiye toh

@SMSheikh , yrr koi bhi book deliver nahi kar pa raha h amazon

Pdf haina

@SMSheikh , please share a link

Google search

are you a student for JEE?

Btw I am @user69608

@SMSheikh ,surprising tho

Lol

amazon.in/Textbook-Physical-Chemistry-States-Solution/dp/…

@SMSheikh, this one?

Btw, @SMSheikh can we please keep our Hindi conversations limited here?

Ok @sai-kartik

@Arjun check the contents if it is in part 1 or 2. This is more advanced than jee. Better go for pdd

Pdf

@Arjun hello and thanks

@Arjun I doubt that I can help.

Any update on the finals in the chessable tournament, @quid?

If I could comment there, I would suggest that edit suggestions should be to improve posts, not just to earn rep.

And @quid, my last comment reminds me of the very much needed ability for reviewers of suggested edits, to flag occasional edit suggestions, which I've previously addressed.

@amWhy I don't think that is the point of the meta post.

I had a hard time to understand it at first too.

What it seems to ask is that if users that would have 2k points had they not given bounties should have the (full) edit privilege.

I deleted the comment above because it is needlessly negative.

@quid Of course, "Father knows best."

@amWhy I am increasingly tired of this. Stop being snide.

You can ask around a bit if such comments are tolerated.

If anything the treatment you receive is overly lenient.

Stop this type behavior or it becomes indefensible to maintain you being active in chat.

@quid Yes, sir.

@amWhy thank you ma'am.

As for the chess tournament Carlsen won today and won the tournament.

The first game was a very good win. Then three draws some of which he could've lost easily.

You grant the benefit of the doubt to virtually 99% of all math.se users, but me not included. So, @quid, I hardly think my treatment here is overly lenient. Cut off my chat privileges, if your feelings were hurt, and you want more revenge. That's fine by me. You've done it before.

@amWhy it is not about my feelings but that you target another user for asking a meta question. That's uncalled for.

It is inappropriate to do this.

Alright many inappropriate things happen but that's no excuse.

@quid No I did not. That you choose to see my comment above as targeting, is on you, and aptly describes your narrative of me: you assume all my comments are targeting user. And I'm sick of that. I don't even know that user!!

@amWhy how else can one interpret it?

What was the point of it? Please explain.

@quid I don't feel safe discussing the matter with you after your threat to cut me off from chat. Best to you, @quid.

@amWhy convenient reply. It's surprising if you don't know the user.

@quid Why surprising? I don't know this user, at least by their username. You have access to previous usernames of any current user's name. I DON'T!!

@quid It's not a convenient reply. It's a reply born of real fear of mistreatment by mods on this site, and born of your threat to me. Why provoke me in chat, when you threatened here that you'll revoke my chat privileges if I continue to speak about this??

@quid If you require it, "then let me say, my bad, I'm wrong, your always right." Happy now? Bye, quid.

@quid ,google.com/…

Were you talking about him?

Yes I misspelled the name

@quid, see this, the opponent was indian tho😡

This must be a fan requested match

@Arjun I think the context was that he was feeling unwell

@quid , could be possible

They played 3 matches before, all draw

One even stretched to 7.5hrs!

@quid As I found out, indian culniary made his stomach upset

@Arjun yes I vaguely recalled that.

I am a bit confused now @amWhy . I'll just deleted it all and you can repost whatever you want.

Thanks, @quid. I'm confused by you too. Mutual confusion, I guess.

@amWhy well maybe it will resolve itself.

@quid Sure, if my fingers are duct-taped so I can't type

Figuratively, if my mouth is duct-taped so I can't speak.

@quid No surprise! (I still think he should shave is facial hair, though!) The parenthetical comment has no bearing on my admiration of him!

@amWhy I am afraid beards are still in fashion.

@quid And I typically like beards; but I like Carlsen's more youthful look without it. I think he just gets lazy and doesn't want to shave ;D

versus this:

theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/09/…

Second link didn't render the photo.