If you allow me a specific remark. I was very little online today. Now I then briefly was around and said I'll look later in a very brief manner which might convey that I have little time. I come back. I have nine inbox messages. One from a fellow mod, and the rest came from here.
I am sorry quid. I limit myself to one ping per day.
I don't have so little trust. I wouldn't get upset if I had so little trust in you. But it is you who always refers to "the flags against me" as justification that I am behaving badly. But I am sincere. If you do not trust me to participate on meta, or to ever comment on main, etc., or ever do anything that might upset another (like voting to close a post, or voting to delete a post) then please say so.
@amWhy no you won't. ;-) And that's fine. But sometimes you just go a bit overboard, in my opinion. Of course it also depends mostly on my context. But I felt I did convey that I was unavailable earlier today.
@amWhy it is not about "ever." But I do think that it would be helpful if you would reduce repeatedly commenting in the same thread or to the same user in relatively rapid succession. Maybe "one comment, per thread, per day" of course applied with some common sense, but the problems often really only start after a couple of comments.
I'm sure, quid, that when I have comments appearing in the same block, only one ping is necessary. (Here I'm talking about chat). It's become rather automatic, not only with you, but just, the @ thingy... (Even when I email, sometimes, I find myself, e.g., when emailing my brother, writing, @Tom when will you return from Kristina's folks this weekend.) It's rarely intentional, though I suspect annoying it can be.
Thanks for spending time here, today, @quid. I really appreciate it. I will leave you in peace. And I'm sorry to have interrupted in what seems to have been a busy day for you today.
@amWhy i would have got the answer wrong anyway ๐ : when you posted this message it was already Friday for me, so I would have said Saturday and of course, loose the prize ๐๐
If I had to answer immediately, that is.
Anyhow, I was sleeping when you posted that question
@AlexanderGruber Before watching my first episode of Ozark on Netflix, I noticed the name of one of the creators of this series is/was Bill Dubuque!! (No doubt, not our Bill!)
@quid No plans, specifically. We've been pretty hot and humid of late. Normally there'd be a lot of July 4th festivities in the US, but not so much this year, save for the wanna be homegrown fireworks technicians, which have been, and will be, randomly "booming" over the course of a week. It'll be all noise this year, no actual fireworks.
@quid Yes. Though today was the "legal holiday" with respect to government-sponsored holidays (government at federal, state, and local level closes). But since communities haven't planned fireworks for community gatherings (due to social distancing), individual users are purchasing nuisance fireworks to celebrate in their own way.
@Arjun Yes, it can be. It may take a little extra effort at first to clean out the cobwebs, after a break from math, to get up to speed, but I think doing so leads to a far more solid understanding of math, than one started with.
The break doesn't need to be long; e.g., I have always excelled in writing, but my best work is when I ignore my writing for a week or more, before returning to it with "better" perspective, to see my writing at a distance, as another might first encounter it. Especially true wrt to proofreading.
@amWhy , last time i tried my hands on it was in 7th grade when me and my friend began working on this book about a bullied kid but my english was much lousier then now. we dropped the idea in some week
@Tamanna hahaha, I know, but it's likely part of the degree!. Are you familiar with M.C. Escher's works. He was a graphic artist, but has fascinated many mathematicians, as well.
@Tamanna Well, I loved art, and did fairly well, and am always interested in others'art, but I was fairly timid, and afraid about being judged if my work was laughed at. I think those who aspire to be artists are very courageous, because they do it despite whether their work is judged harshly, or judged valuable.
@AlexanderGruber Do you have any plans for the 4th tomorrow?
@XanderHenderson Do you have a soundproof home? (My neighborhood has been subject to personal projects in how to make things go boom, for nearly a week now!).
@XanderHenderson Dang. I use white noise: a box fan running in my bedroom. And it's been very hot, so windows are shut, and the AC runs a lot. Get whatever sleep you can! Crossing my fingers for you!
@quid It seems it will be Anish Giri vs. Magnus Carlsen for the finals in the Chessable Tournament. Have you been following? (Of course you have been!)
Err, "It seems it is Giri vs. Carlsen in the finals" ^^^
@XanderHenderson To do this requires more than encouraging girls to pursue math. It is a very complicated matter, due to socialization. It can be done, no doubt, but is requires a change in narrative about what "girls/women" vs. "boys/men" are good at, and it requires our acceptance, as a culture, than women can, in fact, be brilliant in math, science, etc. We need to stop describing brilliance in math or STEM, in general, determined by one's gender.
And it requires the acknowledgement that men are just as emotional as women, that men are fully capable of nurturing and raising children, etc. We've sort of straight-jacketed both genders by long-standing cultural stereotypes.
And, frankly, I think that we need to stop talking about brilliance in STEM, period. This feeds into the narrative that there are "math people", and "non-math people". I think that the reality is that nearly every person who has a career in mathematics gets there by working really hard.
Like, I don't feel like I have any particular aptitude, but I work hard at it.
@XanderHenderson Excellent point! I think that is a myth. (Types of people): I think kids, given a non-judgemental environment, opportunities to explore, and instilled with the need to work hard in whatever they pursue, have enormous horizons within which to pick what they are most passionate about.
@quid Feel free to add your perspective in the conversation between Xander and I about gender norms, and how that might be a factor in inhibiting women in math. It wasn't extensive, but more extensive than most conversations on gender on math.se
@quid Oh, and I expect between you and @Alexander Gruber, that you make up for my missing 20 votes on close votes per day, until I return! @DanielFischer can contribute too. But you all have two days to make up for, too. Between the three of you, you'll need to review 140 questions in the close vote queue, before I return! ;D
Feel free to recruit @AloizioMacedo, as well. That way, between the four of you, you'll each need to promise to review 35 posts in the close vote review queue before I return next Wednesday!
Mind you, I don't always vote to close. I'm asking only for you to be surrogate reviewers in my absence!
@amWhy I think it is important to have environments that are welcoming to everyone. I am somewhat unconvinced that focusing on percentages of representation is a good indicator though. If the numbers are too low it is likely indicative of a problem. But there are complex phenomena at play. At one point I talked to female colleague of origin from a developping country and remarked that in her country of origin there seem to be relatively many women in mathematics.
Her reply was that this is because it is not considered as a serious subject.
@quid My comment and concern had nothing to do with focusing on percentages. And I think I made it clear that the phenomenon at play is complex, not likely originating at the level of those hired to higher education posts in math. It starts far earlier. In any any case, I don't think anything I said here in this chat ...
... was accusatory toward the profession. I recognize it largely as a social phenomenon, in which girls, boys, parents, math teachers, and the established math ematics community is embedded. The phenomenon is not caused by the established academic mathematics community. But rather the mathematics community adopts the social norms and consequences of them as definitive.
.... as descriptive reality (rather than definitive). I just don't think that mathematicians do enough to challenge that descriptive reality, and its source.
@quid Well, what percentage of the population in the world is women, @quid. Its only natural to question when such a tiny percentage of women are engaged in a profession.
I am interested in discerning the problem (most likely problems).
@quid I am interested in discerning the problem (most likely problems). Did you ever aspire to be a nanny, or a nurse, or a waitress, or a stewardess? Or a hairstylist, or ... Why not? That is what I am getting at: social norms about what each gender is most "fit" for doing. Those norms play a big role in how students see themselves.
@quid That skirts my question, and the point I am making. But if you want to be contrarian, that's fine. But if so, I don't think there's any point in me discussing this further with you.
I apologize if I asked you to contribute to a discussion you're not comfortable having. You could have just told me that. But As I reflect back on your comments, it strikes me that they have been mostly defensive, though I never ever came close to suggesting you had a problem with women in math. I've always trusted you don't. But I don't get your defensiveness. Anyway, I'll let you go.
@amWhy maybe I should have said "idea" not comment.
The very first comment was full. I then added a line to complete the first part of the idea.
I also said that something misplaces the emphasis. It does not seem that you are interested to know why I think so and what is in my opinion backwards about the argument.
Maybe you actually would disagree less with me, if you knew.
@quid Please make such reference in the added lines you write to complete an idea. I can't read your mind, always (I can 90% of the time, but not always) ;-)
@quid I never stopped you from expressing that. Only that you continued to fixate on your unhappiness with the percentage issue, which I am not fixated on.
@quid Please do. I will not comment until you invite me to respond.
I find it not ideal to say that "we need more women" (even though it is likely in a way just a shortcut). Maybe we should rather strive to improve the community so that maybe more women want to join or maybe also men that don't like a particular type of environment etc.
Generally I see unequal presentations more as a symptom of a problem. To mostly focus on the symptom can be not ideal. To give an extreme example, I mean most will agree to forcefully enlist women just to get the numbers up would be a bad idea.
I also understand that there is some danger in my argument as it can lead to basically doing nothing.
It is however also somewhat difficult to know what actually should be done.
For example, at one point it was common (some places it still is) to educate boys and girls separately. Then it was found this is not good because it causes disparity. Thus this was changed and they were educated together. Then it was found this is not good because it creates disparity.
If you want some ideas about how to change this, @qud, talk to girls, talk to women. Talk to women who pursued math despite all the cultural baggage that came with that. I need to go. Some of your concerns are understandable. But some are excuses. I need to go.
