whatever, quid - 2020-07-02

KReiser

00:05

👍

sai-kartik

00:55

I hope @amWhy 's alright now?

Ann Zen

Please explain At times, posting songs with "time" and "sun" in the title.

amWhy

01:47

@sai-kartik I'm fine!

sai-kartik

03:00

@amWhy great! :)

Xander Henderson

12:58

I have no interest in engaging with this person further, but:

@XanderHenderson Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you (I'm not being ironic), but it now seems to me that this one question is being accused simultaneously of two equal, opposite, mutually contradictory sins: being a homework question or looking like one, and being a research level question. Also, as I have pointed out several times and am tired of repeating, even if, for the sake of argument, this question is guilty of either (even both!) of these sins, that doesn't explain the rush to close it without open criticism, or the resort to personal attacks when I merely expressed astonishment. — Calum Gilhooley 5 hours ago

"looking like homework" and "being a research level question" are not mutually exclusive or contradictory.

Sigh...

Even if those opinions were being expressed by the same person, there is no contradiction.

Xander Henderson

18:16

Jeebus... I tried to help, and this is what I get:

@XanderHenderson I was pointing out what you say does not make sense, which you cannot possibly reply to, and that is somehow me complaining about close voters to you. It's not them, but you. I do even think they might have a good reason to want to close it. What disturbs me is you speaking for them in a very "unreasonable" manner. Yes, your edit does not reflect my thinking at all, because this is a new different question. I already told you the reason something like what you have written does not seem to improve it. "So what"? So what what? You cannot get them all, but now you know two. — Jaeseop Ahn 2 mins ago

amWhy

18:44

@XanderHenderson closes eyes, lowers head, while shaking head.

Xander Henderson

I mean, my perception of that entire thread is that one user say "How on EARTH could you close this?!" and I replied with something to the effect of "Well, there are other opinions, maybe tone it down a bit?"

This set of a whole chain of emotional and personal attacks.

Sigh...

amWhy

@XanderHenderson Perfectly reasonable and respectful response from you.

What bothers me most is that unrighteous indignation by answerers and troublemakers merely embolden the same irrational indignation of some askers of low quality questions.

Xander Henderson

Indeed.

amWhy

And moderators continue to allow unrighteous indignant users to more or less attempt to humiliate the meager janitors of this site, with impunity.

Xander Henderson

I mean, I worked hard to cite my sources when I wrote this answer. In response, there are a lot of downvotes, no counter answer which doesn't rely on emotion and personal opinion, and accusations of a litany of moral failings. Sigh...

amWhy

18:58

@XanderHenderson I know. That entire thread, save for your answer, is a travesty. But that is what meta has become. A circus for only complainers of closed, downvoted, and/or deleted posts, and the users who answer crappy posts. And mods seldom interfere with their mudslinging. Mods also look merely at quantity of flags, and not quality of flags, and in this current environment, the naysayers/complainer/haters seem to be the most motivated to flag, and vote on meta. It does make me wonder.

Perhaps the wanna ask homework questions/wanna be the fastest gun in the west rep hunters should, indeed, propose their own site.

Xander Henderson

@amWhy I'm not going to try to read the minds of the moderators, but I wish that they would take a much more active role in that meta thread.

It would be nice to see an answer from the mod team, for example.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson I agree wholeheartedly.

amWhy

19:11

@XanderHenderson @quid Please inform the moderator team that this meta question, which has been allowed to go extreme and offensive, needs a mods response. I think you selected the wrong users to 'take a break.' The post mirrors a frenzy on math.se that only the mods active in the last two to three years have partly allowed to happen, not intentionally, but as you must know by now, flags, like upvotes, aren't always of equal merit.

2

amWhy

19:23

Actually, @quid, and @Xander, I think community managers need to see the thread you answered, because I think mods here handled it poorly, and they need to see who got away with what, and to refer the to post the OP was ranting about. I think I may contact them today, to do so, because the way it and the prompting main post were handled by mods, was particularly egregious.

quid

I'll look into it, but it"ll take some hours.

amWhy

@quid, I say that because I think mods respond only to overzealous flaggers these days, without reading the manner in which the flaggers were themselves unfriendly/abusive. I suspect mods here are overcompensating for vocal users' claims that mods favor some users, (from CURED, e.g.), and so they have been for too long favoring the riot-makers. The pendulum needs to stop swinging to the extremes. Find a middle ground, because else mods risk handing this site over to mediocrity and worse.

Please don't use sheer numbers of flags as a quantitative measure of users needing discipline. Start weighing those flags qualitatively. That may take more time, but this site and its users, deserve that. And besides, we're getting another mod, and your all could also insist absentee mods step up to the plate.

Also, the other user you saw fit to suspend, @quid, wasn't even 25% as abusive as the OP from the meta question and related main post. So I just don't get why some abusive users get a pass, time and again.

It just makes it look like mods have designated certain users as "convenient scapegoats". So I'd really like CM's to have a go at the meta post I linked, and the related main post, for some independent eyes on the matter.

@quid Sure @quid, Take all the time you need. But you act in handing out suspensions so quickly. In the future, try to moderate first, and see the whole picture, before prematurely targeting minor players in the whole picture.

@quid When I come back, can I post a meta post inquiring "Where is Pedro, and David, and Michael, as moderators?" Because I think the users who elected them deserve to know that.

Aloizio Macedo

19:41

@amWhy, @quid, @Xander I'm writing an answer.

amWhy

@AloizioMacedo I look forward to reading it. Thanks for letting us know!

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy fyi david's still pretty active actually

amWhy

@quid When you have time, I'd like to know how many moderators are required to form a consensus, when acting, e.g., to suspend users. Or do you all sign an oath of brotherhood (I can say that now because their are no sister mods), that one's name can be used in the list of members of the moderator team when a user is suspended?

@AlexanderGruber That's good to hear!

@AlexanderGruber Are you still in Chicago? Have you been as warm and humid (albeit, not like Florida warm and humid in summer), as we've been in WI?

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy Ugh yes, I can't believe I left Florida for this

It was supposed to be cold

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber It is in cold (sometimes bitter cold) in winter. But it ain't no picnic in summer!

Alexander Gruber

19:49

It's reminding me of the weather in Cincinnati (where I grew up). Horrible winter and horrible summer.

@amwhy are you near the water?

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber About 20 miles west of Lake Michigan. Milwaukee is typically slightly cooler, on Lake Michigan, but we're too far for lake effect warmth in winter, cooling in summer. But WI is second in lakes (smaller) only to Minnesota. But the effect is minimal unless you're way up Nort by Superior, or way east, by Lake Michigan.

Within a 20 miles radius from me, their are about 20 lakes.

Alexander Gruber

That's a lot of lakes.

I've been thinking about moving out further from the city, somewhere rural, so I can own some property. I'm still working from home anyway.

I was looking at a house near Kenosha, still under an hour from Deerfield which is where the corporate HQ is.

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber Well if you go directly west or southwest, you'll be in the "flat lands" more or less. I don't know norther Illinois all that well, but I know that anything south of Chicago enters into "flatland" territory.

Alexander Gruber

Yeah. I like my hills if I can have them

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber That's worth it. Where is the corporate HQ?

Alexander Gruber

19:58

I'm doing ML work for Walgreens right now.

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber Ah, yes! Walgreens is definitely Deerfield IL. Pleasant Prairie is quite nice to, just south of Kenosha. Kenosha was traditionally industrial. But Pleasant Prairie is still close to the interstate (I94), a few miles west of Kenosha, and a little south of Kenosha.

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy Nice. I'll check it out.

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber Have you looked into the Fox Lake region? But I'm pretty clueless about northeastern Illinois.

Xander Henderson

@AloizioMacedo I look forward to reading it. Thank you.

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy I think I've visited there looking at antiques but I didn't look at any property yet.

I am also clueless about this whole area. It is very unlike the deep south.

amWhy

20:08

@AlexanderGruber Did you grow up in the deep south? I know you were an undergrad in Ohio, then went to Florida for grad work.

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy I grew up in Cincinnati, family's half appalachian and half northern ohio amish-adjacent culture. But I didn't do a lot of regional traveling until I moved to Florida.

Abdullah O. Alfaqir

Hello could anyone please help me with this math.stackexchange.com/q/3741220/607906 I'm stuck on it

Alexander Gruber

Chicago seems incredibly corrupt lol

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber It is interesting, and probably logical, that graduate studies, (the age you're pursuing them) coincides with some regional traveling. I did the same when doing my grad work at Washington University in St. Louis. St. Louis is a different creature altogether, than rural Missouri! Born and raised in WI, St. Louis had a Southern flavor, but the Ozarks, even more so. My best friend in St.L was from Chicago, and she felt the same way. But a friend from Georgia, though St. L had a

northern flavor to it. This history in Missouri, and St. Louis vs. the rest of Missouri, dates back to the civil war, when St. Louis sided with the Union, but the rest of the state backed the Confederacy. To this day, St. L is Blue, and most of the rest of the state, red. And in fact, St. Louis, the city, is independent from any county in Missouri.

@AlexanderGruber That goes back to the later 1800's! It had it's share of Mob activity, in the first half of the 1900's, second only to New York City.

Plus the meat packing industry et. al., and bribery with councilmen/mayors. Even in the Police Force.

Alexander Gruber

That's interesting. I didn't know the rebels got that far north. Have you seen any of Ozark on netflix?

amWhy

20:22

@AlexanderGruber No, I haven't. Documentary, Docudrama?

Arjun

@amWhy ,seems like you did a lot of travelling apart from those trips you made as a scout ;-)

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy it's a crime show, a little like breaking bad, but it's set in lake of the ozarks, which looks gorgeous. I keep wondering how accurate the portrayal is of the culture there.

Florida itself has this weird flavor where it's part of the deep south (thus near-unanimous racism and religiosity) but most people are new imports, so no Southern accents, and they don't view themselves as Southerners unless they live in the deep country and want to. Definitely a whole different type of conservative than up here in Chicago. More Alex Jones crazy, less greed / institutional wealth.

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber Oh, I'll have to watch it! I really liked Langmire? I'm blanking on the name. Netflix original, setting Wyoming. Beautiful setting. Lou Diamond Philips played as supporting actor to the lead character, the Sheriff. The county abutted an Indian Reservation. Great series.

Alexander Gruber

@amWhy Oh that sounds awesome. I'm gonna have to find it.

Got it-- Longmire.

Xander Henderson

@AloizioMacedo I appreciate the answer here. Can I suggest that you change "reasonable" to something like "dispassionate"? The word "reasonable" is loaded: accusing someone of being unreasonable is accusing that person of a moral failing.

Aloizio Macedo

20:42

@XanderHenderson I agree that saying someone is unreasonable can be not constructive, but by saying that considering the answer "not an answer" is reasonable I'm not claiming that there was some party being unreasonable, or even that the answer was unreasonable. It can be the case that people disagree and everyone is being reasonable, for example. I prefer "reasonable" because it not only says that it is dispassionate, but it also gives credit to it being thoughtful and actively based on reason.

Xander Henderson

@AloizioMacedo I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

Again, thank you for stepping in.

Aloizio Macedo

@XanderHenderson No problem! Feel free to ask for input in meta questions in cases you think it may be useful.

amWhy

21:04

@AlexanderGruber Thankyou! I was totally blanking on it. I really liked the series, A LOT!

Alexander Gruber

I'm probably going to watch it. Been needing a new one lately. Let me know if you watch Ozark.

amWhy

@AlexanderGruber I will definitely watch; I've been need a new one lately. I tend to dive into one at a time, and watch an episode every or every other day. Then I get slightly depressed when I've exhausted the series! :(

@AlexanderGruber The only series I needed to take breaks from was Criminal Minds. Although I regularly fast-forwarded through gruesome scenes, I did have a few unpleasant dreams, or semi-sleepless nights as a result of some episodes, hence the need to take breaks. But I loved the character development and character interactions enough to finish off all episodes.

To all, including @quid, @user21820, @Xander, @Arjun, @sai-kartik, and, again, all: Tomorrow is <insert day of week>. And this year, in the US, since July 4th (Independence Day) falls on a Saturday, tomorrow is also a legal holiday. Answer in Jeopardy style!

Not surprising by the current climate on meta, that both Xander's answer and a moderator's answer got downvoted here. Tell me @quid, what does it take to get my point across to you?

I just wish this site, and this site's meta could strive to be more credible that Facebook-like "likes and dislikes". But I guess social media has trained too many of users to vote based on emotions and reflex, and not reasoning and deliberation.

Xander Henderson

21:30

@amWhy What is Friday?

amWhy

@XanderHenderson You win!!!!! $$$$!!!! Yay!!! (Officially, What is Friday, July 3, 2010?, but the referee decided you are close enough!!!). Prize: my esteem!! $$$$ :-)

amWhy

21:49

@amWhy Me suspect, @quid, that you're quantitative approach is resembling that of facebook likes (upvotes) and dislikes (downvotes and flags) as decisive in how to act. Maybe that's SE's philosophy, and you feel the need to uphold it. But upholding that philosophy will be the death of math.se as it once was.

quid

@amWhy I do not think this is how I operate. I'll look into it now.

amWhy

@quid I suggested earlier today that users who want to allow homework, "guess what I mean to ask" and other "low quality" posts, and demand entitlement to answer them, and insult those who suggest they not do so, create a separate site. But maybe some of us may need to propose a new, separate site which expressly forbids the posting of PSQ/Homework-style/Try-to-guess-what-I mean questions). It will have sufficient uptake, and eventually become a beta site.

quid

@amWhy I'm in the process of catching up what happened. If it is still relevant that I do this rather close in time, it would be helpful if I could do so uninteruptedly.

amWhy

which site would you want to moderate, @quid. The current: "I demand anything goes, and screw you if you don't agree?" Or the new site which doesn't tolerate that attitude????? Therein lies the question, @quid.

By quantitative, with respect to your assessments, you treat all flags as equal. And count "many flags against amWhy" as indicative that I'm a problem, no matter the context in which they originate, nor no matter who generates the flag. So be it. But maybe then you shouldn't become a mod on the site I propose in order to distance myself from this site's willing blindness to, and willing rebellion to site policies.

@quid Very well @quid. I'll give you the four days you need to do this.

quid

@amWhy oh great if it can wait four days I'll do something else instead. ;D I think it'll take about 15 minutes. Add a minute for each additional PING. Recall just yesterday you actually thought it would be a week and thirty seconds later it was done. There. :-)

amWhy

22:02

Just don't want you to accuse me of being too impatient, yet again. But note, I haven't pinged you, quid.

Your last comment wasn't fair, quid, because last time I was suspended from chat, it took six weeks to be able to chat again, which was longer than my brief suspension from math.se. I simply suspected I'd have to wait until at least until my suspension from math.se expired (a week), if not longer. So you're comparing apples with oranges. And you don't have the greatest track record for acting promptly. To avoid your wrath, I was generous in allowing you four days...

...also did that for my own sake: to avoid getting my hopes up that anything will happen anytime soon.

@AloizioMacedo Thanks for answering the meta post Xander and I were concerned about. I would upvote if I could. But I'd really like to know how "on-board" the mod team (or at least the active partial mod team) is with your answer. I support it. So thanks for taking the time to write and post it.

quid

@amWhy it was a quip maybe. (If you post stuff that distracts me...sorry it's also my fault I should focus better. But for now I at least partially answered your last comment.)

amWhy

@quid Where?

quid

22:17

@amWhy on the answer

amWhy

@quid I'd upvote it if I could :( But, the spell-checker in me must point out (because you can fix it at any point you can): "I second this. I'd stress that it is possible to post two comments in case one is two short." The second "two" should be "too". (No shame in that, I have done the same many many times!) English!! >:[ (to, two, too!!)

^^^ I'll give you one hour to correct the above typo, @quid!! :-)

Or whatever time you want to take, if any at all. I don't want to distract you any further today, quid. Good night.

quid

22:34

@amWhy okaaaay. But you know that I meant to say "two short" it means "short enough for fitting in the length of two comments." Get it? You know that I never make an error. :-) [That's of course a joke, I did make an error and corrected it by now.]

amWhy

@quid :P I wouldn't even say anything if I did not know you had the powers to correct any comment you write, anytime! :P But your answer to me is lovely! :-)

You've got the bad luck of being a moderator... you have magical powers most of us don't have. So we hold you to a higher standard!

amWhy

22:50

@amWhy @quid What do you think of the possibility of users invested in supporting only non-homework, high quality questions (context, details) proposing a new site? Clearly, the homework-askers and homework-doers dominate this site now. So asking them to create a new site will face the sort of animosity shown rampantly on this site now. Clearly, over the years, there has been no reconciliation on this site with respect to this matter.

All levels of math would still be welcome, but homework and PSQ's absent context would be strictly off limits.

quid

@amWhy to be direct, I doubt that would go anywhere. The niche between this site and MO is too small.

amWhy

@quid Why hasn't math.se been able to accomplish what Physics.se has. Is it because there is no PhysicsOverflow?

quid

@amWhy the history of Physics was indeed different.

amWhy

@quid I guess I'm not longer convinced that what I'd like to see on math.se can exist within the current SE model, though Physics accomplished it.

There have been too many casualties of good, sincere, users on this site, and I seem to be getting close to being one too. Of course I know the more of us who leave, the more more rampant abuse of the site continues. But this site's climate makes it nearly intolerable for users like me. So no one can blame us. I am asking moderators to take a good look at how this site is operating. That's all. If you're all happy with the status quo, just let me know. That's all I ask.

Because there are more users investing far more than triple the time in trying to maintain quality on this site, than the amount of combined time of all mods spent on this site. Perhaps my issue is simply with SE's ambiguous model. I don't blame mods here.

I just know some folks, some where, are dropping the ball. And most importantly, those dropping the ball are not being held accountable.

Anyway, @quid. I don't want to distract you anymore today, nor demand more of your time. But be aware that the recent treatment of highly devoted users on this site may very well smother any chance they subject themselves to an election for moderator. This site has essentially allowed mudslinging, stoning, toilet papering, serial downvoting, harassment of users with the highest of motivation and behavioral history. I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about users I'd like to see run

quid

23:25

@amWhy maybe. Yet maybe they try to find some middle ground and maintain some cohesion. Solutions of the form some group should best leave are not really great either all things considered.

amWhy

23:38

@quid Those dropping the ball are not finding some middle ground. I do not consider those who have left due to this site's leniency on some, to have dropped the ball. I think those dropping the ball are those enabling this site's destruction, and/or are looking the other way. As I said, the two users you chose to suspend for a week are laughable. Particularly the other answerer of the question posted by the inciter on meta, who handled himself far better than the poster of the meta q.

I do not get it, @quid. I can only conclude that mod decisions have become rather arbritraty, to show the community you are acting, to quell the rioters. When you should be extinguishing the fires caused by the rioters.

Whatever, say you really really really all felt the need to suspend me and make me the chronic scapegoat. Fine. I can live with that (though not for long.) But the other user you suspended handled himself far far better than Calum did. What's up with that? That choice in particular lessens my faith in moderator's actions, far more than my week's suspension. I happen to think my suspension had more to do with you and perhaps another mod not liking what I was saying in this room.

I just do not think mods are around enough anymore to effectively detect the pulse of this site, not as much as dedicated users are.

quid

Your data might not be quite up to date.

amWhy

@quid Well, if something happened in the last hour, then forgive me. I'm still more up to date than you usually are. But that wouldn't have happened without me and Xander, and perhaps Aloizio, due to me and Xander, and maybe you, due to me and Xander, spending an extraordinary amount of time

quid

Regarding suspension a lot depends on prior context it is rare that we suspend without any prior warning at all. In a way each user has one suspension-worthy offense "for free." That can make some decisions seem unbalanced as on our side they might involve things like "that user was already warned in March and again in Mai not to comment so agressively yet they still do it" or "yes that's bad, but they never did anything like that so far; maybe let's just warn them" Etc.

amWhy

today to wake things up.

quid

@amWhy alternative scenarios are always tricky but that's likely a misconception.

amWhy

23:52

@quid For a belligerent post two days ago, and ongoing belligerence on both the main and meta post, oh, today, they get suspended. Hmmm... Me thinks mods never took the time to learn the context in which I was flagged, by whom, until today. Hence, don't take every flag at face value, particularly when there is a pattern of who is flagging whom.

quid

I think I said this already but maybe not: I am virtually certain that more moderator actions in your sense would be taken if you were less trying to get something done. That's not because we want to spite you, but since some of you actions create a level of back-ground noise and distractions that some of the transgressions of others get lost or pale in comparison.

And "you" is not only you.

But I am talking to you.

amWhy

No worries, I know you guys don't ever ever ever admit you were wrong in any of your mod actions, god forbid. I'll live with it. But only today, in the last hour, did I actually see the first sign of justice in this nonsense of a meta post.

quid

@amWhy in many actions there is really no absolute notion of right or wrong.

amWhy

@quid You let that happen. You take anyone's flags, no matter the source and history of their targeting me with flags, as legit. You allow it to create noise. If you do not want me participating in any manner on meta, and want me never to comment ever, to only be invisible (which means I can't really review, either, or close of delete, because then I would no longer be invisible), then SAY SO and I will leave this site.

@quid No, only how can we please the most people, like on Facebook, or like politicians?

@quid But, thanks for admitting as much.

quid

@amWhy the first part is just false. I am truly sorry that you have so little trust.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ whatever, quid