whatever, quid - 2020-06-08

Xander Henderson

00:03

@quid Lights match.

quid

00:13

@XanderHenderson pours a bucket of water over it all

skillpatrol

Aww I was ::bringing in a can of gas::

quid

@Joanna yes, at least when moderation of the site permits. :-)

Regarding pure vs applied. I'd recommend to do what you find interesting.

Sorry to hear about the conflict, I hope you can resolve it without tooo much fallout.

Enjoy the ice-cream. Maybe I should also eat some. Let's see.

skillpatrol

@XanderHenderson quick lite another match while he's gone

@quid I hope the heat is not melting your ice cream, sir?

:D

quid

00:30

@skillpatrol I did not yet leave. And I am feeling a bit cold actually.

skillpatrol

Enjoy the warmth sir.

> Some like it hot and some sweat when the heat is on
Some feel the heat and decide that they can't go on
Some like it hot, but you can't tell how hot 'til you try
Some like it hot, so let's turn up the heat 'til we fry…

amWhy

12:57

Thanks to you, @quid, and to Daniel Fischer and Aloizio for your good input on the most recent meta post.

amWhy

15:49

Hello to you, too, @quid.

quid

16:06

@amWhy hello. I hope your week started well.

amWhy

@quid Well it would have started much more nicely if every wanna-be editor who suggests poor edits didn't assume they know what's best on math.se. And if a certain frequent replier, particular to comments and posts critical of me of CURED would be warned to cut it out. But aside from that, all is good.

2

Xander Henderson

@amWhy I really love it when people quote ISO or IEEE formatting standards as though they are some holy gospel.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson hah!

""a certain frequent replier (who also is under the illusion they know what is best for math.se), replying particularly to my comments and posts and those of CURED users would be warned to cut it out..." (correcting some typos).

quid

@amWhy I understand that it is frustrating but maybe it is possible to view it under a somewhat less negative angle.

Xander Henderson

What I find particularly galling about that question on meta is that, while $\mathrm{e}$ might be preferable to $e$ (I think it is, but I wouldn't go out of my way to correct anyone), $\operatorname{d} x$ is clearly wrong.

amWhy

16:18

@quid And what is the positive angle of two users who assume they know everything there is to know about math.se, and what math.se needs and are all-to-eager to bitch about other more established users's interventions?

quid

@XanderHenderson but see we could at least clarify this and it was accepted in a way, it's not all bad.

@amWhy see above

amWhy

@quid Not by the second user who thinks they are an authority on all things math.se. Yet mods refuse to intervene with respect to their unkind and accusatory comments and answers. What sort of power does that user hold over you, @quid? The asker handled all well, but you and other mods still fail to act on the bad faith of the other answerer.

Xander Henderson

@quid Indeed. I have no real complaints about how the topic was handled. I just find the lack of self-awareness to be somewhat frustrating.

amWhy

@quid I see no acknowledgement of error from that frequent flyer who thinks they are an authority on all things math.se, and I still see the rude comment they left directed at me below the question. You still don't think this is personal, their behavior on meta?

whatever, quid. (Sounds familiar?)

quid

@amWhy never seen that.

I think the absolutely by far best thing is not to take the baits @amWhy

amWhy

16:29

@quid I do not think I did. I think I handled myself very well in that thread.

quid

@amWhy indeed. I actually meant to add something along these lines.

The phrase was more intended as a general one, not as a reproach.

amWhy

@quid That's fine, @quid. But I'd really like to not have to waste time defending myself, or being dragged through the mud by a wanna be moderator. That's exhausting, even when I refrain from responding to the wanna-be.

I don't have the thickest of skin, and there are limits to how quickly one can develop thicker skin. That doesn't mean it's okay for others to throw darts, and if I get stabbed, blame me for not having thick enough skin.

I am trying this new touted miracle ointment to use to grow thicker skin. I am working at it ;D

Or maybe sandpaper will help be develop callouses ;D

quid

@amWhy but we don't want you to become callous.

Thus better not overdo it.

Never realized the common source of the words.

See what good comes of it all?

amWhy

17:48

@quid ;D

user462942

@quid The fallout was pretty bad, but I had higher-ups fighting for me, acknowledging that I was wronged -- some even advised me to write the paper myself and post it on the arXiv, which I won't do. To be heard is all I can really hope for, unfortunately, and I'm thankful that the right people got involved. Many bridges are now burned. I "solved" a longstanding problem that dates back to the late-1800s, and it was called a great discovery. Where it goes from here I wouldn't know.

user462942

I have my fresh start this fall though, at a good PhD program.

user462942

Have a great day @quid -- I'm gonna squeeze in some "hiking" in my area today.

quid

@Joanna thank you; same to you. Enjoy your hike.

Martin Sleziak

19:06

The same two users are most active in retagging on MathOverflow Meta and Mathematics Meta: data.stackexchange.com/meta.mathoverflow/query/1235453/… data.stackexchange.com/meta.math/query/1235453/…

I think I have underestimated how active quid used to be on MO (and their meta).

Arjun Rana

19:28

@amWhy, are you active on twitter?

amWhy

@ArjunRana No, not at all.

Arjun Rana

@amWhy ,i was telling my sis about MSE and all the top users and out of all those she pointed out you, she said she followed you on twitter and i had a llo at profile and thought "yeah, this looks like you" i messaged her and was blocked a few seconds later😅

amWhy

I don't use "amWhy" anywhere but on math.se. And I have never ever tweeted anything!.

quid

@ArjunRana what did you even say?

Arjun Rana

@quid , i asked if you are the same amwhy as on mathematics stack exchange?

quiet astonished how people get offended by just mere mentioing of math😅

quid

19:39

@ArjunRana yes, I don't know the etiquette of Twitter, but that seems a bit harsh.

@MartinSleziak well it's been a while. When did I even delete.

Arjun Rana

what are your real names?

quid

April 2016 it seems.

user462942

@quid do you know much about applied math? things like modeling blood flow in the heart (immersed boundary method), the flight of a bird, the locomotion of fish.

quid

@ArjunRana the point of a pseudonym is not to reveal them.

3

Arjun Rana

@quid , ah i get it

quid

19:43

@Joanna no not much. I mostly do number theory and combinatorics.

user462942

@quid I see

user462942

@quid would you agree that one shouldn't get into number theory if they're aren't already very strong to start with? My Analysis professor told me that. He told a story about when he was at princeton math, only one of their phd classmates, Bhargava, went into number theory -- the point being that only the best students from the best departments go into it, and that only a few people dominate the field of number theory,

user462942

with many open problems being hundreds of years old ...

user462942

he said I should instead do something multidisciplinary for research ...

Arjun Rana

@Joanna , i believe if you are a number theorist you won't be making much a effect on the mathematical society if you are not among maybe top 1000 or something

anyone here interested in boxing?

quid

19:53

@Joanna there are many problems that are more recent and not that hard. It depends what one wants to achieve.

user462942

@quid I see

quid

It is likely true that the academic job market is more crowded and that passing to industry is less clear, but hey as Gauss said its the Queen of Mathematics.

user462942

@quid I see

Xander Henderson

@Joanna My feeling about number theory (from the perspective of someone advised by a person who has made contributions to analytic number theory) is that it is a really good place for young careers to go to die.

In many parts of mathematics, one can ask a question and have a very good idea about how difficult it will be to answer that question. It is always possible to miss (i.e. to assume that a problem will be very difficult only for it to turn out that it is trivial, or vice versa), but a general prediction of difficulty is often possible.

On the other hand, number theory---particularly algebraic number theory---contains a lot of landmines, i.e. problems which can be very easily stated and which look obvious, but which turn out to be incredibly difficult.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I see

Xander Henderson

20:01

Unless you are (1) very, very good, (2) surrounded by, and collaborating with, people who are very, very good, or (3) being advised by someone with a proven track record in the field, it is probably best to hold off on research in number theory until you have tenure.

Preferably, all three of the above should hold.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I see

Xander Henderson

I mean, even rock-god Terence Tao admits that number theory is too hard (and then writes a paper in the field).

user462942

@XanderHenderson yes, my Analysis professor emphasized (1), that one must already have a strong start. even he and his classmates at princeton did not go into number theory, except for bhargava.

quid

@Joanna Manjul?

user462942

yes, the Fields winner

user462942

20:05

they were classmates

Xander Henderson

Obviously, you should seek a second opinion, but my advice to a young graduate student (which, to be fair, is someone on five years behind myself) would be as follows: if you are are interested in number theory, devote a week or two to it every year. Learn what you can, but don't work on it very hard.

quid

I met him once long ago, he is a very kind person.

Xander Henderson

After you get your PhD and a job (e.g. a postdoc), up that to a month every year.

Once you get into a tenure track position, you might even think of putting two months out of a year on it.

By the time you get tenure, you should have the necessary foundational background to start thinking about making progress on open problems in the field.

:P

amWhy

There is something to be said for passion: pursuing an area of mathematics about which one is passionate. After all, expect to put in a whole lot of sweat and tears. But I agree that sometimes reality forces certain decisions.

Xander Henderson

I think that the advice I would give to a would-be number theorist is very similar to the advice I would give to a would-be novelist: follow your passion in your free time, but don't quite your day-job.

user462942

20:09

I see

Xander Henderson

Of course, if you are being advised by a rock-star number theorist, or if you are surrounded by a group of very good number theorists, the calculus is different.

quid

Out of curiosity about which other subjects would you say that?

Xander Henderson

@quid Algebraic geometry, maybe.

amWhy

@XanderHenderson studying tessellations isn't necessarily the biggest ticket on the market either.

Xander Henderson

A few years ago, I tried to learn some tropical geometry (my advisor is interested in studying "fractals" in Berkovich space). Just getting to the point of being able to start to formulate a reasonable question probably would have taken me a few years.

user462942

20:13

@XanderHenderson My advisor is pretty good and works in algebraic geometry and number theory; their advisor is certainly a rockstar and has many leadership duties in and out of our dept. But, my work with them was minimal - a thesis that explores an open problem. On the other hand, I solved an open problem in Applied Math that dates back to the late-1800s, but such a discovery takes time to develop, I was told.

user462942

I now want to move way from Applied Math, after this situation.

Xander Henderson

One needs to know a lot of analysis, geometry, algebra, and nonarchimedean analysis, just to get started.

With a good advisor, it is doable, but you need to be working with an expert.

amWhy

@Joanna Go where your passion is calling you. It sounds like you have excellent support, advisors, and that you are talented.

Xander Henderson

@Joanna So you managed to have at least one of the three prerequisites. If you have someone who knows number theory and is willing to advise you, awesome!

If they think that you are capable and they are interested in working with you, fantastic. Go for it!

quid

Number Theory is also a wide field.

3

If one picks up, say, the Journal of Number Theory one will find all kinds of things.

user462942

20:24

@amWhy Thanks :)

amWhy

@Joanna You bet! ;-)

user462942

Just to be clear, the problem I solved was for another lab within our dept., with new funding from the NSF; it's not related to my excellent thesis advisor and their advisor.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I'm scared to ask, although I keep in touch with them. Thing is, moving away from Applied Math seems not practical. A potential career killer, as you've cautioned. But, I'm traumatized by some of the bad behavior in Applied Math labs.

Xander Henderson

@Joanna A bad advisor is a nigh-certain career killer. If you have found an advisor you like, and they like you, and you work together well, you are going to do fine no matter what.

If your advisor sucks, find a new one as fast as you can.

Even if it means working in an area that you aren't particularly interested in---you can always change gears later in your career.

user462942

@XanderHenderson Choose the advisor rather than the thesis topic? That sounds wise to do ...

user462942

20:32

@XanderHenderson In fact, my TA is now an Assistant Prof, and higher-ups are now starting to give talks about his work. My TA told me that he chose the advisor, thinking he wanted to work on Topic X (many, many people go into Topic X). His advisor, who's very famous, led him to a new Topic Y.

user462942

@XanderHenderson Are you a professor?

skullpatrol

::drum roll::

user462942

I'm traumatized currently, because I invested nearly 2 years solving an Applied Math problem, only for it to be mired in politics, conflict, and with neutral longtime math professors acknowledging that I was wronged but to keep in mind that what happened to me was the nature of the business and to move on quickly and make another discovery.

amWhy

@skullpatrol Introducing, Dr. @Xander Henderson!

skullpatrol

Aww, you ruined it.

user462942

20:37

@XanderHenderson Congrats :)

user462942

Professor Henderson :)

Xander Henderson

@Joanna I am not a professor, though I am now a doctor.

"Professor" is a job title, and I do not currently have that job.

If I am lucky, I might have that job in two or three years.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I see

Xander Henderson

Though I currently have an offer for a community college position which is essentially tenure track; I am very much considering it, though it would be disappointing to leave research academia.

user462942

@XanderHenderson Congrats on the offer!

user462942

20:40

@XanderHenderson What are you now? A post-doc?

user462942

Could you defer that CC offer for a year?

Xander Henderson

@Joanna I just got my PhD last week.

And, at the moment, the CC job is the only one on the table.

If I want to eat for the next year, I am probably going to have to take it.

I am still holding out for a couple of post-docs, but the window of time I have available to make a decision on the CC job is rapidly closing.

user462942

A number theorist I know moved away from the U.S. and is at a top research university in a country that I would never consider moving to (high political tensions / bloodshed). It's wild to me what people need to do to stay in research / number theory. They also just started a family; I really miss them.

user462942

@Joanna Oo I see

user462942

@XanderHenderson Would you consider working retail, and waiting a year?

Xander Henderson

20:44

@Joanna Oh, hell no.

user462942

Cuz going from CC --> back into research might be impossible, right?

skullpatrol

@XanderHenderson "A week old post doc" sounds weak and aged :-)

user462942

@XanderHenderson haha

Xander Henderson

@Joanna Going from a CC to a research job is much easier, I would think, than going from a non-academic job in retail to a research job.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I work at Starbucks to make ends meet; it's grueling, but I don't starve anymore ...

user462942

20:45

@XanderHenderson I see

Xander Henderson

And, honestly, I've never worked retail, and the thought of it makes my skin crawl.

Worst case scenario, there are industry jobs that I could probably do.

user462942

@XanderHenderson Yeah, it's horrible and grueling, especially the closing shifts that require extensive cleaning duties. (And nobody signs up for the closing shifts, so I usually get them.)

Xander Henderson

Yeah, I'm too old for that s***.

user462942

haha

user462942

@XanderHenderson Any regrets on doing a PhD?

amWhy

20:49

@XanderHenderson You're a natural born teacher (which you've proven for some time) and researcher. I can't see you in industry. But that's just my perhaps uninformed opinion.

Xander Henderson

@Joanna Not really, no. I am aware of what it has cost me, and am relatively depressed at the moment regarding the job market, but I can't see how I would have done much of anything else.

@amWhy No, I think your assessment is likely correct. I like teaching. I like collaborating on research. I can't see myself being happy in an industry job.

skullpatrol

@Joanna there is a famous number theorist who used to work in subway

amWhy

@XanderHenderson The passion factor appears again!

Xander Henderson

I do kind of miss working for the Forest Service.

Though I am not sure that could pass the pack test at this point in my life.

And I really don't want to ever dig line again.

user462942

@XanderHenderson I see

user462942

20:53

@skullpatrol Zhang? A classmate told me, I think ... a while back ...

skullpatrol

Yup

user462942

@skullpatrol I perhaps came off embarrassed about my retail job, and they told me that Zhang worked at Subway -- but I was never embarrassed. I felt honored to be hired without any retail experience haha ...

user462942

Going on a year now almost ... I like free food :)

user462942

@XanderHenderson Any plans to start a family anytime soon?

amWhy

@Joanna Don't ever feel embarrassed about doing what you need to keep afloat; I trust it won't be forever, and that you'll find your niche!

user462942

20:56

@amWhy Thanks so much :)

skullpatrol

Zhang really turned up some noses at Princeton

user462942

@skullpatrol what does that mean?

user462942

Like, he earned their respect or nah?

skullpatrol

nobody talk to him for two weeks while he was there

user462942

oh, crap ...

skullpatrol

21:00

just look how long it took Princeton to appoint a black valedictorian

I'm sorry if my comments seem negative, I will stop now

:-)

user462942

@skullpatrol I'm fine, thanks for asking :)

user462942

@skullpatrol You know almost all the colleges around me, prestigious / top-ranked all the way down to the regular 4-year colleges have faculty from Princeton. My Analysis professor, who also has his math PhD from Princeton, told me to consider that observation when thinking about the odds of landing in academia for math.

user462942

I know it's a long shot, and I'm scared ...

skullpatrol

robjohn is a from there

user462942

I see

quid

21:08

@Joanna might be more a reflection of the hiring practices then the actual quality-differential between the students, but I don't know the US system well enough.

amWhy

@skullpatrol from there

@quid ...might be more a reflection of the hiring practices than the actual quality..."

user462942

@quid good point ...

amWhy

Sorry for being grammar-typo fixated this afternoon (my time).

user462942

@amWhy it's ok :)

quid

@amWhy yes, I should avoid making errors where I know what is correct.

amWhy

21:11

@skullpatrol I already edited it out, thanks.

@quid Those dang typos!! When one's fingers to the walking and the talking! I have done the same!

quid

@amWhy I spell even worse than back then.

amWhy

I try to post an alert to allow commoners (like me), unlike you, @quid (who can edit whenever) early enough for editing! ;D

skullpatrol

Typos are ubiquitous

always have and always will be

amWhy

@skullpatrol More so on the internet. Anyway, I gave you a chance to correct yours, didn't I? Just because they happen doesn't mean we shouldn't endeavor to correct them.

skullpatrol

Classic textbooks excluded, of course.

Xander Henderson

21:20

@Joanna I have an 8 year old daughter.

skullpatrol

they become "classics" over many editions, revisions, etc. What we see on the internet is the first edition :-)

Just look at Euclids elements

Xander Henderson

@skullpatrol I found another typo of moderate significance in my master's thesis yesterday. That think was submitted 8 years ago.

@skullpatrol That thing is riddled with typos. :P

skullpatrol

:P

amWhy

@XanderHenderson Yours two? Oops, yours to? Oops... :P

@quid You do very well. I just have an eagle eye for typos and such not, not because I want it, but just because I can't help not seeing them! But, mind you, not always my own! :-)

It's like we each write what we want to say, and we're apt to read our writing just as we intended it to be. So it is much easier to spot typos and errors in another's writing, than in our own writing.

quid

@amWhy thanks. It depends a bit on how tired I am.

amWhy

21:35

@quid Me too. (Me 2, me to...) ;-)

skullpatrol

I think, our own typos should consume all of our efforts; while other peoples' typos are their business :-)

amWhy

@skullpatrol But we are each often the most blind to our own typos. That's why editors exist!!

@skullpatrol And given the above, one will likely spend an extra day or two, and still miss some errors, whereas an editor can spot them in a split second. Psychology.

Cooperation.

@skullpatrol Anyway, apologies if I offended you.

Xander Henderson

@amWhy This. A thousand time, this.

amWhy

@skullpatrol I personally relish anyone who can warn me of a typo in chat that I can fix, like I warned you so you can fix yours, in the small window of time commoners have to edit comments in chat. Ditto for comments on main. I also welcome edit suggestions to correct typos in my posts, or comments alerting me to them. So I don't agree that "other peoples' typos are their business".

Xander Henderson

I can't find my own typos.

amWhy

21:50

@XanderHenderson Oh, yeah, I hear you. It's sometimes only after a month (or more) since I've read my own work that I might detect a typo in my words.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ whatever, quid