@VoromirKadien Instantaneous is a vastly different context... you can dispel permanent, you cannot dispell instantaneous. The effects are permanent the spell is not.

@Duck Duration is Instantaneous, the charm effect is 30 days.

@NautArch Permanent and Until Dispelled are interchangeable, they both can be dispelled (if the result of a spell) unless specific verbiage says otherwise like Wall of Stone. Crawford clarified this, although I cannot link it here at work.

@Rubiksmoose Which then brings into question Awaken as that doesn't mention it can be dispelled.

@NautArch And arguably intent on Wall of Stone seems a victim of word choice on that one though.

@Duck I think the issue is the dual meaning of "Permanent" one for spells and one for English. Misuse breeds confusion.

I have voted to close the question unless the OP can clarify which he is after. I have posted my clarifying question to his query.

@Slagmoth I had done the same, but OP did say "By permanent, I mean a spell that doesn't end on its own, having a duration of "until dispelled", or not specifying when the spell ends."

@NautArch I get that but that means that Instantaneous durations should not be part of the list, imho. Because the spell technically did already end. Like Fireball the burnt bits of flesh still remain but the spell is long gone.

@Slagmoth What spell in my list shouldn't be there?

@NautArch Awaken as it is instantaneous... it makes the change then is done, can't be dispelled.

@Slagmoth But the effect is permanent. The Awakened remains Awakened.

Finally got the chat room for this @Slagmoth :)

@NautArch The same is true of create water, fabricate, fireball, firebolt... etc.

Unlike fireball, which is instantaneous and then is gone, Awakened persists.

Animate undead is the same way.

I think i should add fabricate

I look at these as the following... the magic is only doing an alteration... then is done... like fireball it chemically alters the surroundings.

The effects are persistant but the spell is not.

@Slagmoth But you've used magic to create something permament. That's the question.

To me that is still the part that is unclear.

Whether he wants spells with infinite duration or things permanently created by magic.

They are different in my head.

The problem is he asked for spells that have a duration of until dispelled. The spell awaken ends. It can't be dispelled because it is no longer a spell

That is where the confusion lies for me.

You can't detect magic on an Awakened creature... there isn't any magic left... now if he clarifies that is what he wants, then I totally agree with your list... but right now it is a bit ambiguous.

In his defense a lot of people get these things confused... my own players sometimes as well.

THat's....very reasonable. I'll VTC with that in a comment.

and i can't. i already retracted my vote :(

@Slagmoth : completely agree. I regret retracting my close vote.

my apologies for the retraction and retraction related accessories

@Rubiksmoose No worries... I nearly retracted mine until I rethought it a bit.

on the bright side, i doubt any else will answer :)

Well, you have compiled a great list.

@NautArch Lol that is true. So it is not that urgent to close it, but still needs to happen in case we do not get clarification.

@Slagmoth I skipped page #s/links because I felt I did enough with the list itself :)

@NautArch Indeed. It can always be gussied up later by you or someone else.

I think the big issue here is that OP took an already kind of confusing game term and actually broadened the scope on it.

He can certainly look them up... they are alphabetical.

I agree.

that is not necessarily his fault though. I blame the devs for a lot of word usage that is simply silly in the context they have used them.

Oaths and Pacts and Invocations... to name a few.

@Slagmoth Yeah for sure.

@Slagmoth It's OP's fault in the sense that simply defining Permanent doesn't solve anything, imo.

@Slagmoth it'd be better if there was a goal that was in my mind for this list.

I also miss when Schools of Magic actually meant something... not when a Transmutation spell stepped on Divination by granting knowledge. :(

I will stop before I rant :)

Indeed we should keep the chat on topic. We can rant in the main chat.

The very existence of this room tells us how bad the question is: people were lead to discussing random game terms for "nothing". But back to the main topic. It depends on what the OP means by "spell ending". The Animate Dead/Awakened character staying alive/awakened means the spell hasn't ended or not? From the game perspective, I agree that it has ended - reason we can't dispel it.

mold earth and stone shape and a couple other spells that create rough terrain until cleared can be considered permanent by this interpretation

@HellSaint The spell has certainly ended. What is unclear is if that is enough to not qualify for being "permanent" according to OP.

@HellSaint I don't think it is bad I think that the OP may not know the way that the "under the hood" works and the specific definitions of spell effects and durations. Which we should help educate them on.

Even my own seasoned players have issues with this sometimes, and other weirdness like Spell Resistance doesn't work the same as other "Resistance" but then you have the Ancient Paladin that does what you would think that Spell Resistance would do...

Ugh.

@Rubiksmoose He defined permanent as " doesn't end on its own, having a duration of "until dispelled", or not specifying when the spell ends."

@HellSaint mhm. I am aware.

So if we agree that the spell has ended, we agree that it is not permanent by his definition.

But as I said, it depends if what the OP means by "spell ending" is the same the game means by "spell ending".

@HellSaint I do agree with that. Although it is not certain if that is OP's intent.

Yep and by that definition all of the instantaneous duration spells with effects that don't end like awaken should be removed from the list even though they are the most appropriate spells to be on the list because their effect is actually permanent.

@Duck ironically.

There's that word again.

Persistent? Is that better?

I think if we take this semantic argument any further we will have to start debating metaphysics.

Or metamagic...

Although allowing any instantaneous effects to count would open the door to allowing any spell that had any lasting effect in any way.

Even if the spell has ended.

I think the thing is: the spell itself has ended, as well as its magical effects, but not their consequences.

If you fireball a forest, the magical effect of fireball has ended, but the fire is still spreading.

exactly so mold earth, the spell ends the earth stays moved. the effect is permanent

permanent cantrip

I concur.

@Duck But not "permanent" (game term) according to the game. Or, arguably, "permanent" as defined by OP.

Persist.

the effect persists but the spell does not.

So I think we can split these two things: Spell's magical effects and the consequences of these effects. The magical effects can be dispelled. The consequences can't.

I think if the question was reframed to specify spells where the magic energy persists it would adequately narrow the question but severely limit its value

Awaken, Animate Dead, etc have permanent consequences, but not permanent magical effects.

By OP's definition, he is interested in permanent magical effects rather than permanent consequences. I think. But he might not know it himself.

@HellSaint Fair supposition.

@HellSaint There are a couple with lasting magical effects that cannot be dispelled so be careful about using that as a metric for 100% of things. But yeah I think that is a good dichotomy.

@Rubiksmoose Specific beats general. :P

@Duck The question has little value already, imho. What problem does "permanent spell" solve?

Well question is closed now. Hopefully OP can clarify for us.

As I mentioned in a comment, "Spells that do fire damage" solve problems. "Spells that create illusions" solve problem. "Spells that are permanent" don't. Their effects are completely different.

So we can agree that Awaken, Wall of Force should be removed and Temple of the Gods should be added?

I guess knowing spells that have long term dispellable effects and which long term effects can't be dispelled could be useful in a situation where a player needs to know if he can use dispel magic to alter his situation

Nope Temple can't be dispelled either.

In fact I believe there are several spells (aside from the instant. ones) which cannot be dispelled.

True... but most have finite durations... Wall of Force as an example.

@Duck That seems a completely different question though. This would not be simply a list of permanent effects, it would be a "What spells can be dispelled?" - and this wouldn't lead to any chat room discussing if awaken can or not be dispelled - it can't. Period.

I think the intention is that spells like Wall of Stone with the "permanent but can't be dispelled" are intended to not be detectable by Detect Magic but that may just be my addled brain making connections.

Temple of Gods can't be dispelled because it specificly states it, though.

I like the term persistent for spells whose effects outlast the duration of the spell itself and permanent for spells whose duration lasts indefinitely (or until dispelled).

It's still a permanent magical effect, it is just a specific magical effect that can't be dispelled by spell's description.

If it was not a magical effect to begin with, the spell wouldn't need to explictly state it can't be dispelled, because it would be the general rule already.

but if y'all want to add/remove, I really don't have a problem with that either :)

I would say it is a permanent effect of the magic not a magical effect. Magical effects can be dispelled.

@Duck Unless they specify that you can't.

right

@HellSaint I can see it either way tbh... the wall is magical during concentration but fully forms once complete.

@Duck only if created by a spell.

Very important distinction.

@Slagmoth I was talking about Temple of Gods though.

Right.

It seems pretty clear to me that ToG creates a permanent magic effect that cannot be dispelled.

@Rubiksmoose Agreed.

I can see that... I just think Wall of Stone is a bit different.

Mostly for flavor on my end though.

@Slagmoth It is different. It specifically says that the wall is non-magical.

Oh... missed that... although if there were a caster in the party I would let them know it was obviously created through magic...

Which is funny with the further conflation of the word "permanent" :P

yeah tog makes the effect permanent that is the wording of the spell

@Slagmoth and with the addition of the "cannot be dispelled"....

Ok so it is a magical effect that moves and holds non-magical stone in place. As opposed to magically creating stone.

fine, I added ToG :P

well the real reason that tog is different that wall of stone is because it is made entirely of opaque magical force. The wall of stone is a physical object that doesn't need to be maintained by magic

So now I am actually reading Wall of Stone as saying that it is a permanent magical effect actually.

Well the fun part is that it is evocation... imo it should be conjuration if it brings stone from another plane, Transmutation if it moves and shapes stone... not quite sure why it is evocation.

Sorry getting off topic.

yeah makes it weirder that wall of thorns is the only conjured wall

Agreed.

I actually posted that just now on Twitter to see if that was a typo that didn't make it to the Errata (as it is not there).

To be fair, it seems that schools were an afterthought in this version.

true

I remember reading Treantmonk's wizard guide in which he states the actual Wall school in 5e is Illusion

"Illusory Reality: So suddenly illusion is the ultimate Battlefield control. Make a silent Image of a stone wall, then POOF! Your first level spell is wall of stone for 1 minute with no concentration to maintain. Holy crap!"

@HellSaint Yeah, fun combinations... Major Image upcast then Nystal's Magic Aura to mask it made permanent... :)

@Slagmoth Throw in Illusion Wizard to temporarily make them real real :)

For realz...

I would also add Flesh To Stone, if the Concentration is maintained.