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00:41
In case this attempt at defining Intersect is incorrect, I will fix.
 
2 hours later…
02:51
@F.Zer It's incorrect. I told you again and again that types are not necessarily objects. Why do you still keep treating them as such? You can't make a statement about equality with a type, so "Intersect(S) = { x : ∀T∈S ( x∈T ) }" is ill-formed.
03:04
Unfortunately, there isn't going to be an easy way around this. If I let you use "=" for types, you would just confuse yourself without knowing, so I won't. This kind of business is also why I don't want you to do set theory, because if you want to do it right it will be complicated. I'm going to tell you the correct way to define Intersect(S) for non-empty set S, but it's not going to be a trivial matter.
Firstly, this notion of "Intersect" cannot be a function in ZFC. The most it can be is a (newly defined) function-symbol. So we will need to do what is required as stated in (2) here:
9
A: How could we formalize the introduction of new notation?

user21820What you may be looking for in your formal system is variously called full abbreviation power or definitorial expansion. Basically, it comprises rules that allows you to create on the fly new symbols extending the original language. We need one type of rule for each kind of symbol: $\def\eq{\left...

(2) says that you can define a new function-symbol f to satisfy a certain input-output relation (given by φ in that post) if you can prove that there is a unique output for each combination of inputs.
That post was written for one-sorted FOL. For many-sorted FOL, you can define a restricted function-symbol (i.e. with specified input/output types) with a similar criterion:
> ∀x[1]∈S[1] ... ∀x[k]∈S[k] ∃!y∈T ( Q(x[1],...,x[k],y) ) ⊢ ∀x[1]∈S[1] ... ∀x[k]∈S[k] ∀y∈T ( f(x[1],...,x[k]) = y ⇔ Q(x[1],...,x[k],y) ). [where f is a fresh function-symbol]
Before we apply this rule to what we want, for convenience let nset be the type { x : x∈set ∧ x ≠ ∅ }.
We will define (in the global context) a new function-symbol Intersect : nset → set. The instance of the above rule that we need is:
> ∀S∈nset ∃!I∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈I ⇒ x∈T ) ) ⊢ ∀S∈nset ∀I∈set ( Intersect(S) = I ⇔ ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈I ⇒ x∈T ) ) ).
Earlier on, you have only proven ∀S∈nset ∃I∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈I ⇒ x∈T ) ). So that is in fact not enough to be able to define Intersect... You need to prove uniqueness.
"∃!x∈T ( Q(x) )" (there is a unique x∈T satisfying Q) is short-form for "∃x∈T ( Q(x) ∧ ∀y∈T ( Q(y) ⇒ x = y ) )".
Wait, now that I look at your proof more closely, I see there's an error. It's actually not possible to prove ∀S∈set ( S≠∅ ⇒ ∃I∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈S ( x∈T ) ) )...
The correct statement is ∀S∈set ( ∃A∈set ( A∈S ) ⇒ ∃I∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈S ( x∈T ) ) ). Then the proof works.
Accordingly, let's change the definition of nset also, to the type { S : S∈set ∧ ∃A∈set ( A∈S ) }.
So here is the proof of the required sentence:
Argh.. I typed the required instance wrongly. It should be:
> ∀S∈nset ∃!I∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ) ⊢ ∀S∈nset ∀I∈set ( Intersect(S) = I ⇔ ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ) ).
Given S∈nset:
	Let C∈set such that C∈S.
	Let I∈set such that I = { x : x∈C ∧ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) }.  [comprehension]
	Given x∈obj:
		If x∈I:
			x∈C ∧ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ).
			∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ).
		If ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ):
			C∈S ⇒ x∈C.
			x∈C.
			x∈I.
		x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ).
	Given J∈set:
		If ∀x∈obj ( x∈J ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ):
			Given x∈obj:
				If x∈I:
					∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ).
					x∈J.
				If x∈J:
					∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ).
					x∈I.
				x∈I ⇔ x∈J.
			I = J.  [extensionality]
Now we can apply the rule to obtain ∀S∈nset ∀I∈set ( Intersect(S) = I ⇔ ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ) ), where "Intersect" is our desired new function-symbol.
This yields:
> ∀S∈nset ∀x∈obj ( x∈Intersect(S) ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ).
@F.Zer: If you don't want to bother with the above, just take note of this final result, which is all you need to use Intersect.
Same for Union:
> ∀S∈set ∀x∈obj ( x∈Union(S) ⇔ ∃T∈set ( T∈S ∧ x∈T ) ).
You might wonder why it seems I cheated in my post, because I wrote:
> ∀S∈set ( Union(S) = { x : ∃T∈set ( T∈S ∧ x∈T ) } ).
The reason I could do that was that I already had Union : set→set as a predefined function-symbol, so there would never be any trouble from this 'fake equality'. I don't want you to do the same for Intersect unless you fully understand all the above.
 
4 hours later…
08:33
@user21820
(3)What is the precise definition of a property P? What does P(x) mean syntactically?
08:46
yesterday, by user21820
@Prithubiswas You just read the symbols of "P" itself. See, the rules apply to any property "P", and property here just means that you have some boolean statement with some blanks, such that "P(E)" means the string obtained from filling each of those blanks with "E".
Is this insufficiently precise?
yesterday, by user21820
For example "∀x∈S ∃y∈T ( Q(x,y) )" is "∀x∈S ( P(x) )" where P is essentially "∃y∈T ( Q(?,y) )" where the "?" denotes the blank.
@user21820 It seems a bit imprecise.For example , where are the "?" marks allowed in a property P ? is something like "∀?" allowed in a property?
Yes, it's a bit imprecise. It's possible to be more precise, but after some point there are diminishing returns. Those blanks need to stand in for a term. So, no, "∀?" is not allowed in a property.
@user21820 Does that precise definition use the concept of free and bound variables?
@Prithubiswas Well, there are many ways to give a more precise version. But the easiest way is just to define a property (in a given context) as what you can get from a boolean statement (in that context) by replacing zero or more terms in it with blanks.
09:45
@user21820 In Wikipedia for Natural Deduction , there seems to be two kinds of judgments:
(1) A prop.
(2) A true.
In your syntax rules , "A bool" is sort of similar to "A prop". And , in your post , the inference rules are for "A true". Right?
10:25
@Prithubiswas That's right.
@user21820
Is "Let y∈S such that P(y)" A "statement" or a "header"?
@Prithubiswas It's implied to be a statement. However, it is technically not relevant to the system, because there is no rule that enables you to use such a statement. The statements that actually matter are the later ones, namely "y∈S." and "P(y).".
The only reason I included that useless statement is to make the system more humanly intuitive.
Otherwise the rule would just be ( ∃x∈S (P(x)) ⊢ y∈S ; P(y) ) where y is a fresh variable.
 
2 hours later…
12:23
If ¬∃x∈S(P(x)):
   Given y∈S:
      If P(y):
         ∃x∈S(P(x))
         ¬∃x∈S(P(x))
	  ⊥
      ¬P(y)
   ∀y∈S(¬P(y))
   ∀x∈S(¬P(x)) [Rename]
¬∃x∈S(P(x))⇒∀x∈S(¬P(x))
@user21820 attempt at (Q2)
@Prithubiswas Yes that's correct!
12:49
@user21820 I was looking at F.Zers proof of Q2.

https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/77161?m=57413636#57413636
(Q2): ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) ⇒ ∀ x ∈ S(¬P(x))
If ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)):
	Given x ∈ S:
		If P(x):
			¬∃ y ∈ S(P(y))
			∃ y ∈ S(P(y))
			⊥
		¬P(x)
	∀ x ∈ S (¬P(x))
¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) ⇒ ∀ x ∈ S(¬P(x))
You said that it is correct , but I am kind of skeptical of line 4. Here ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) is renamed to ¬∃ y ∈ S(P(y)). And to do that you have to first bring ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) inside the if context.But the ∀restate rule doesn't allow that.Am I missing something?
13:03
@Prithubiswas You're not missing anything. I sometimes make careless mistakes when checking. As you said, the restate rules don't permit that renaming. However, for the purpose of doing actual mathematics using my system, I am less concerned about following the rules to the dot, as long as the underlying principles are correct. Nevertheless, @F.Zer should take note of the error you found.
It is not actually difficult to show that we can extend the rename rule to work with negated quantifiers.
@user21820 Yes, I am just checking. It's not possible, as Prithu have found, to pull "¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x))" inside "Given x ∈ S:", since x appears in "¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x))". Could you check my latest version of (Q2), please ?
¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) ⇒ ∀ x ∈ S(¬P(x))
  If ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)):
    Given y ∈ S:
      If P(y):
        ∃ x ∈ S(P(x))
        ⊥
      ¬P(y)
    ∀ y ∈ S (¬P(y))
    ∀ x ∈ S (¬P(x)) [rename]
  ¬∃ x ∈ S(P(x)) ⇒ ∀ x ∈ S(¬P(x))
@F.Zer Yes it's the same as Prithu's.
Anyway this is how you can get the rename rule for ¬∃:
¬∃x∈S ( P(x) ).
If ∃y∈S ( P(y) ):
  ∃x∈S ( P(x) ).  [rename]
  ¬∃x∈S ( P(x) ).
  ⊥.
¬∃y∈S ( P(y) ).
So its not a big deal if either of you want to use it.
@user21820 That's good. We didn't have a rule where the negation is in front of the quantifier. Seems convenient.
@user21820 Good. Thank you for all the explanations on Set theory. I see the issue with types; { x : ∀T∈S ( x∈T ) } is a type. I do note the explanations are a little above my head.
@user21820 I think in Linear Algebra I am going to have many proofs involving sets (and Discrete Math). That's why I am trying to do Velleman's proofs involving sets. Do you think this is the right path I should follow ? Perhaps, only practicing Velleman exercises which don't have any set theory at all and do Spivak as you suggested ?
Oh, perhaps the complexity arises from intersection in the context of family of sets.
No, I think the issue had to do with the definition of a new function symbol (and the uniqueness part).
@user21820 Yes, I see what you mean. However, I don't understand all of the above.
13:27
@F.Zer I think you were just unlucky because Velleman decided to talk about intersection of arbitrary families of sets.
In practical mathematics, you almost always deal with subsets of some particular set S. Say you have a set F of subsets of ℕ, then clearly you can get the intersection by { x : x∈ℕ ∧ ∀T∈F ( x∈T ) }. Nobody would even care about the potential trouble with full set theory.
So in most cases you will be able to use comprehension without any problem, unlike the special case of general intersection.
You definitely won't see any such trouble in real analysis (including all of Spivak's Calculus).
If you want I can give you the axiomatization for reals.
But not now, I got to do something.
@user21820, your recent explanations makes complete sense and I fully appreciate it.
@F.Zer Very good!
@user21820 Thank you so much. When you have some time, I would like to understand a bit more of your uniqueness proof before moving on the axiomatisation of reals.
@user21820, I could understand a bit more of your teachings regarding Intersect. However, I do have a couple of questions.
@user21820, perhaps for another time, could you explain what do you mean by "Say you have a set F of subsets of ℕ, then clearly you can get the intersection by { x : x∈ℕ ∧ ∀T∈F ( x∈T ) }" ?
Are you saying ℕ doesn't give the troubles we were discussing or perhaps I am completely missing the point.
@F.Zer If all of the members of F are subsets of ℕ, you don't have to face the same trouble of getting a member of F in order to use comprehension (like in the proof that the general intersection exists), and can just use ℕ.
@user21820 When we substitute a variable "b" for the"?" in a property P , does "b" have to be an unused variable?
13:37
@user21820 Oh, because we know ℕ is non-empty ?
@F.Zer No, it's just because ℕ is large enough to catch any potential member of the intersection. If F is empty, this intersection would be ℕ, so it 'disagrees' with the general intersection (which is not even defined for empty F).
But in practical mathematics we never have the problem of intersection of an empty family, and sometimes this different definition even has better properties. Never mind, I probably said too much.
@Prithubiswas Well if you follow the syntax rules for forming boolean statements, the terms you can form can have both used and unused variables (that are bound by the quantifiers in the boolean statement). Forming a property just means you can put a "?" instead of a term anywhere you like.
@user21820 Mmm...I am not ready to understand this. I will leave a note in my notebook and ask again when I am.
 
2 hours later…
15:34
If ∃x∈S(x∈S)
   If ¬∃x∈S(P(x)⇒∀y∈S(P(y))
      ∃x∈S(x∈S)
      Let u∈S such that u∈S
      u∈S
      If P(u)
         Given v∈S
            If ¬P(v)
               If P(v)
                  If ¬∀y∈S(P(y))
                     ⊥
                  ∀y∈S(P(y))
               P(v)⇒∀y∈S(P(y))
               ∃x∈S(P(x)⇒∀y∈S(P(y)))
               ⊥
            P(v)
         ∀v∈S(P(v))
         ∀y∈S(P(y)) [rename]
      P(u)⇒∀y∈S(P(y))
      ∃x∈S(P(x)⇒∀y∈S(P(y)))
      ⊥
   ∃x∈S(P(x)⇒∀y∈S(P(y)))
∃x∈S(x∈S)⇒∃x∈S(P(x)⇒∀y∈S(P(y)))
@user21820 attempt at (Q3)
@Prithubiswas That's right! It's also interesting, because you did a different case-split from me.
 
1 hour later…
17:02
@user21820 hey, hope you are doing well! question for you, if you have time:
I have $e^{-Px}\int Q'(x)\frac{e^{Px}}{P} \ dx$, with constant $P$ and $Q'(x) \to 0$ when $x \to \infty$. Clearly, expanding the integral with integration by parts will result in the integrated $e$ term being canceled by the $e^{-Px}$ in front of the integral so the whole thing will converge to $0$
but... how do I begin showing that more rigorously?
17:52
@user21820 Oh, I understood ! Since ℕ ∈ set, I can use comprehension to infer { x : x∈ℕ ∧ ∀T∈F ( x∈T ) }. No need to prove an element of F belongs to set.
@user21820 I undestand a bit more about your Intersect explanation. Could you tell me how would you use "∀S∈nset ∀I∈set ( Intersect(S) = I ⇔ ∀x∈obj ( x∈I ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ) )." in practice ?
18:05
I should first show something belongs to nset, that is, { S : S∈set ∧ ∃A∈set ( A∈S ) }. So, for example, S' should satisfy S'∈set ∧ ∃A∈set ( A∈S' ).
Given F ∈ set and ∃ x ∈ obj ( x ∈ F ). How do I show ∃A∈set ( A∈F ) ? How do I go from obj to set ?
18:53
15 hours ago, by user21820
> ∀S∈nset ∀x∈obj ( x∈Intersect(S) ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) ).
@shintuku I don't understand the question. I think you need to first state the question clearly before you can attempt to prove it. Currently something is very wrong with it because you talk about x→∞ but x is also a variable in the integral.
19:20
@user21820 Excellent. However, I should prove something belongs to nset as a first step ? Without it, I can't use Universal Elim.
I think I should prove F contains an element that belongs to set.
19:47
@F.Zer If you're talking about the exercise you were doing, you did that in your attempt already, right? Actually you need to express the exercise correctly otherwise you won't be able to prove it.
20:09
Hmm after talking to you I realized that although my the syntax rules are sufficient for all my exercises, this rule is a bit too weak to make to let us define and use types easily.
Sorry, it's because I was trying to keep the system agnostic and not too reliant on ZFC being meaningful. But since my intention is not to impose my philosophical view, I'm just going to replace that rule with a stronger rule that is compatible with the set theory presented in my post (even though it is philosophically problematic in my view):
> x∈obj ; [S is a type] ⊢ x∈S : bool
Using that, we can define fset to be the type { S : S∈set ∧ ∀x∈obj ( x∈S ⇒ x∈set ) }, and the exercise you wanted to do was:
> ∀F,G∈fset ( F⋂G≠∅ ⇒ Intersect(F)⊆Union(G) ).
@F.Zer Ah so maybe that's what you meant. Now you can, because if you let A be a member of F⋂G then A∈F and so A∈set because F∈fset.
21:16
@user21820 Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Thank you.
@user21820 I am not familiar with this. Could you explain why there is a "x ∈ S : bool" in the right hand side ?
21:33
So, now we have fset, nset and set. Is this "∀S∈nset ∀x∈obj ( x∈Intersect(S) ⇔ ∀T∈set ( T∈S ⇒ x∈T ) )" still relevant after your new fset ?

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