English Language Learners

Anonymous

16:04

Oof :-)

Anonymous

Yes, only one perfect auxiliary per verb group, please!

Damkerng T.

Hee

Hello, @snailboat!

Anonymous

I think you can describe perfect constructions in English by drawing a timeline with two points on it, then drawing an arrow from the time in the past leading to the time in the present (or whatever the reference time happens to be)

Anonymous

A change of state in the past, and that state continuing up to the reference time

Anonymous

Then we have to talk about what states those are

Anonymous

16:10

And that's where it gets complicated :-)

Damkerng T.

We need InstantGrammarTimeline (TM) on ELL!

Anonymous

For example, "I've been to New York" has a point in the past at which the state of having the experience of going to New York begins

Anonymous

And that state continues into the present

Anonymous

But the point of time in the past was just that—a point, and the actual event doesn't continue into the present, just the resulting state

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

16:14

And the necessity of explaining this stuff makes our attempt at unified semantics a little more complicated than we might hope :-)

Damkerng T.

Plotting "I've been to New York several times" would be a little complicated. :-)

Anonymous

That's still the same—the event in the past is whenever you leave New York for the severalth time :-)

Anonymous

Until then, the sentence would be false

Damkerng T.

Yes, but I think we might need to add several more dots to make the point clear. :-)

Anonymous

It's complicated by the indeterminate quantifier though

Anonymous

16:17

Because that makes it clear that our idea of a single point in time at which the resulting experimental state begins is something of a fiction :-)

Anonymous

That was supposed to say experiential but my phone autocorrected it :-(

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

In fact the time at which the state begins is often not a point or not specific

Anonymous

But it's okay as long as we can conceptualize it roughly that way

Damkerng T.

0

Q: What do mean by this sentence?

I want to understand what is the context of quoting "a six-pack was how you bought your beer" At 44, I am old enough to remember when reconstruction was something you read about in history class, when a muffin top was something delicious you ate at the bakery, a six-pack was how you boug...

Oh, no! StoneyB and I tried to find images and posted our answers at around the same time!

Anonymous

16:20

Anyway, that's how I'd describe the perfect in English, except with an awful lot more details I've left out because I'm lazy and typing on my phone is taking me a long time :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

I think it's a bit more complicated when being used with the progressive aspect.

Anonymous

I do think backshifting and the alternations between simple and perfect in AmE and BrE are interesting topics

Anonymous

(Here I coopt simple to mean 'nom-perfect', which I shouldn't do :-)

Anonymous

Ack, non-!

Iplodman

Hallo!

:)

Damkerng T.

16:23

@snailboat I wonder if that was because words like nom, nom!

Anonymous

I do think perfect constructions are often optional in BrE too

Damkerng T.

@Iplodman Hallo!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Maybe my phone knows me too well! Om, nom, nom

Iplodman

I'd like to ask a favour of the more UK politics-savvy of you, if any are here c:

Damkerng T.

Hee

Iplodman

16:24

@DamkerngT. Does that mean you're one? ;)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that was for Om, nom, nom, but I think it's applicable to your message too!

Iplodman

Ah, good! Sorry, I was confused by hee ;P

Anonymous

I'm afraid I'm an ignorant American

Iplodman

@DamkerngT. Mind helping me out? I had to write some stuff on the Lib Dems for English homework, and I'd appreciate it if you gave it a quick scan.

@snailboat Don't worry, I'm an ignorant Englishman ;)

Damkerng T.

@Iplodman Okay.

A-ha! This is the first time I've seen dem in real life!

(I found it once or twice in the context of "persuasion" in a book.)

Iplodman

16:28

Thanks! Here's an image form of the article, but there's a PDF download link somewhere here if you prefer.

I assumed Lib Dem was a popular/current term. D:

Damkerng T.

:D

Iplodman

The last two paragraphs are what I might be hazy on c:

Damkerng T.

Wait, you wanted me to scan through the article, right?

Iplodman

Yeah, if you don't mind c:

Damkerng T.

Somehow I stumbled on the first sentence!

> ... with the various groups of liars (commonly congregated under the blanket term politicians) gives me, ...

Iplodman

16:31

If you couldn't tell, I chose a slightly satirical approach ;)

Damkerng T.

I think I understand the meaning, but I couldn't parse the sentence neatly enough.

Iplodman

It basically "various groups of liars (commonly congregated under the blanket term politicians)" means "there are liars, and we call them politicians."

Damkerng T.

Yes, but what is the subject of the ~~sentence~~ clause?!?

Oh, I see. [n]ot being ....

Was that a real quote by the Lib Dems?

Iplodman

Yeah, it's from their constitution!

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Iplodman

16:37

libdems.org.uk/constitution

:)

Damkerng T.

I think you meant whose policies are by who's policies are.

(after UKIP)

Iplodman

Ah, a bad habit of mine!

Thanks very much! c:

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

I like it!

Iplodman

Great, I'm glad! c:

Thanks for checking it out!

Damkerng T.

My pleasure!

I wish I could write like you. :-)

Maybe I should buy TIME, and eat it every day. :P

Iplodman

16:45

@DamkerngT. Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it! :)

I recently started writing a novel, although I'm not sure how far I'll get ;P

Damkerng T.

Ah, that's exciting!

Is there a robot in the novel? :P

Iplodman

I'm not sure it would suit the theme!

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I understand that. Don't worry. :-)

Iplodman

I'll try to get chat.stackexchange working on my phone, if not, I'll be forty minutes or so (Going for a quick walk.) c:

@DamkerngT. ;)

Damkerng T.

Have a nice walk!

Iplodman

16:50

Thanks! :)

MARamezani

Hullo world!

Damkerng T.

Hallo!

MARamezani

How's it going?

Damkerng T.

It's going rather okay, or so I think!

How are you? (I hadn't seen you earlier today.)

Busy in classes?

MARamezani

Been fine. And sleep.

Damkerng T.

16:55

Ahh

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. That's another story. For three days straight, I slept for 1 hour or two hours only. So, I needed to take a break.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

Get some sleep, then.

MARamezani

I already slept too much. Now I'm a little caffeinated, but am okay.

Damkerng T.

ELL status: 15,006 questions

MARamezani

Good. Too bad it isn't 15006 good questions...

Damkerng T.

16:59

Hehe!

I'm trying to measure how many questions we really have a day.

The number of questions was 15,003 three hours ago.

So, we are at about 1 qph!

MARamezani

BTW, that is inaccurate.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I guess you have detail info.

MARamezani

We're not persistent in getting Qs and so, the average qph is inconstant.

@DamkerngT. I could, if I weren't undrunkenly sozzled....

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. That's right. I'm trying to do this for a couple days.

MARamezani

Don't forget to graph the result!

Damkerng T.

17:03

I wouldn't go so far as to plot a graph or something!

MARamezani

No graph, no cookies.

Damkerng T.

No pain, no gain, right?

MARamezani

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Damkerng T.

It's a tough world. :P

MARamezani

But I get that. You wanna measure the qph to find our busy hours, but what about when you sleep?

Damkerng T.

17:05

I think we can just approximate it.

MARamezani

For the sake of fun:

-23

Q: Add "undecided" to the up vote/down vote system

I propose an third option - UNDECIDED/NOT SURE. Sometimes a post leaves me unsure as to whether it is any good or bad, and I wish to make my opinion clear on this, so I propose this as a voting option. And no, this is not an April Fool.

feature-request status-declined voting

Damkerng T.

:D

That's interesting, actually!

Damkerng T.

17:27

Good morning @StoneyB!

MARamezani

Hullo @StoneyB!

Jim Reynolds

Did someone call the chatroom police?

I am here.

MARamezani

I did. And here I am!

o.0

Jim Reynolds

O.o

Damkerng T.

o_O

Jim Reynolds

17:39

39 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

The number of questions was 15,003 three hours ago.

MARamezani

0.0

Jim Reynolds

Typo.

MARamezani

Typo?

Jim Reynolds

I think you meant "number of tabs open on my browser was . . ."

Oops.

MARamezani

He meant.

Typo.

Damkerng T.

17:42

@JimReynolds o_O

Jim Reynolds

Whew. That was a lot of work for a little joke.

MARamezani

Don't joke then when you see a sleepy sloppy acid and a distracted robot.

Damkerng T.

I think I'll need at least 16 GB of RAM to handle that many tabs, and that's for FF alone!

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. FumbleFingers?:P

Damkerng T.

(And assuming that FF can handle that.)

@MARamezani You confused me! Argh!

MARamezani

17:44

@DamkerngT. He can. He's a good linguist.

Jim Reynolds

You shouldn't go without sleep like that.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Like what?

Jim Reynolds

Like an hour or two a day, dumb-dumb.

Don't make the mistakes I did!

Look at my picture.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Hmm, is dumb-dumb an intermolecular force?

o.0

Jim Reynolds

I'M 22 YEARS OLD!!!

o.o

MARamezani

17:46

Or is there a nonpolar covalent bond going on there?

0.o

O>0

Jim Reynolds

That sounds like snailboat's name for Dam's latest attempt to construct a clause.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds That? You mean O>0?

Jim Reynolds

That that is not what I mean.

MARamezani

Good.

Jim Reynolds

I mean when Dam tries to write in English, and out comes some gibberish.

Then snailboat will correct him.

MARamezani

17:50

@JimReynolds He's not here to see what you mean.

Jim Reynolds

GOOD! THEN HE CAN'T ARGUE. O.O

MARamezani

Good. Wait, why am I saying good?

o.0

Jim Reynolds

I do not know.

MARamezani

Why thou not know? You usually know everything about me...

o.0

Jim Reynolds

You might be psychiatrically unstable.

MARamezani

17:53

Might be? That's an understatement.

Jim Reynolds

I try to let you feel included.

I used "Iranian" in a grammar example a few hours ago.

o.0

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Hah. Did you succeed?

Jim Reynolds

Certainly.

MARamezani

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Damkerng T.

@MARamezani I didn't see what he will mean. o_O

MARamezani

17:58

@DamkerngT. Mean? What is this? San Francisco?

Damkerng T.

I don't know what to be thinking for or of or about or to his will or would have or would have been or would have had been thinking.

MARamezani

o.0

Damkerng T.

I'm considering that that is one of those possibilities that he might have been expecting me to be able to manage to have had been thinking.

MARamezani

Having to had been thinking is something I'm not having to have had done now.

user116848

Oi!

MARamezani

18:01

Salam!

Damkerng T.

15-11!

user116848

Walaikum asalam!

Damkerng T.

(Jim had been putting me into a would have been so-called debugging mode.)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. And got away with it.

user116848

My internet is crawling for strange reasons. I don't even know those reasons.

user116848

18:03

rimshot!

Damkerng T.

I'm feeling like I want to write something that is resembling to what you would read as "sadly".

MARamezani

Sadly, do it.

Anonymous

Only one perfect auxiliary per verb group please! :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm thinking that maybe or perhaps or possibly Jim was or is or would be some sort or some kind of a virus!

user116848

@snailboat Oi!

MARamezani

18:05

@snailboat Hullo!

Damkerng T.

I got infected! Argggghhhh!

Anonymous

> I'm considering that that is one of those possibilities that he might have been expecting me to be able to manage to have ~~had~~ been thinking.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Robot zombie.

0.O

Damkerng T.

@snailboat From this or that point onward or now on, please blame my strange or weirdness in syntax or semantic on or upon or over Jim. :P

Anonymous

Or "Rob zombie" for short

MARamezani

18:06

Rob J. Zombie.

(Why did I use J?)

0.O

Damkerng T.

Rob J. Zombie Jr.

Jim Reynolds

Rombie!

MARamezani

@JimReynolds That's too much like Rambo. But would do for a nickname.

Damkerng T.

Between Rambo or Romba, which one would you like?

MARamezani

Rembo.

user116848

18:08

Rainbow

MARamezani

@arrowfar Wait! The zombie sense went away!

Jim Reynolds

rem is a stage of sleep.

user116848

Yeah rapid eye movement

Damkerng T.

@Jim Please give me the antivirus, so I can get back to function normal or normally or normalily once again.

user116848

I like that stage of sleep

user116848

18:09

Very comforting

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Exactly.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Okay. I blame everything on Jim already, so that works out nicely

Jim Reynolds

All the world is a browser, and to Dam, each of us is simply a tab.

0.o

MARamezani

O.o

Damkerng T.

A new word: tabification!

user116848

18:10

^_^

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Tabifiedity is the scientific name for that.

Tabilusion is the lingu name.

Anonymous

Remember, have had is only possible if the first have is the perfect auxiliary and the second have is the lexical verb

Damkerng T.

I starr-edd thhatt!

core dumped

rebooting...

MARamezani

Beep beep!

Jim Reynolds

The Tabification of Phenomena by Damkerng T.

MARamezani

18:12

Welcome to windows 47

o.0

Damkerng T.

Hello, world!

user116848

@MARamezani No way. Which year?

MARamezani

@Dam has windows OS. Where is this world coming to?

@arrowfar 3147.

Damkerng T.

What happened? I can't remember the last 15 minutes.

Jim Reynolds

Dam wrote a book, 624 pages. Edited by snailboat.

Damkerng T.

18:14

That... sounds like a good idea. :-)

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. You are a serial killer. In the middle of a murder. Go ahead.

o.O

Jim Reynolds

snailboat's corrections and footnotes: 7457646643784 pages.

Damkerng T.

Who was my target, again?

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Dunno. I'm not killing anyone.

@DamkerngT. Maybe the tripods from Mars.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds screaming at 18.724 kHz.

Jim Reynolds

18:15

:D

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. MY EAR!

Jim Reynolds

Is it a felicitous frequency?

Damkerng T.

That would depend on whether you can hear it or not. :P

MARamezani

@JimReynolds Wait. You didn't hear it through your soul?

Jim Reynolds

My dog's cat's baby can feel it.

MARamezani

18:17

So, why do you ask?

Gimme half an hour. Answering meta thingies.

Jim Reynolds

We gladly give you half a century.

MARamezani

Oh thank thank you! You're a life-saver (Jacket)

Damkerng T.

Let's give him half a millennium.

MARamezani

o.O

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Damkerng T.

18:19

I remember that that was the time required to form Gaia successfully.

Jim Reynolds

I see your half a millennium and raise you one geological epoch.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. Eww. What is that?

Damkerng T.

ELL status: 15,008 questions

@JimReynolds Ouch!

@MARamezani You could [find] that in old book films, particularly ones that mention Earth, the unknown origin of humankind.

MARamezani

@DamkerngT. I could what that?

Jim Reynolds

hehe

Damkerng T.

18:23

It was in the same universe as R. Daneel Olivaw.

StoneyB

WS2 over on ELU needs to read this discourse.

user116848

Hi Mr B

StoneyB

Hullo. Hey! --a sequitur!

Damkerng T.

Hello!

I found WS2! (Yay!)

user116848

You mean non sequitur? :)

StoneyB

18:26

Congenial greetings, DT. JR. MAR.

Jim Reynolds

We talk gooder than we think.

MARamezani

@JimReynolds You mean "weller"?

Jim Reynolds

Sweller.

StoneyB

@arrowfar Quite the opposite: two consecutive utterances, the second of which follows rationally upon the other.

user116848

@StoneyB Ah. Got it.

StoneyB

18:28

WS2 is fun. He asked John Lawler for an example of the morphologically eviscerated English of the future.

Jim Reynolds

Warmest greetings, StoneyB.

(Suspenseful music plays.)

StoneyB

Ego moriturus te saluto.

user116848

Btw my language improves a lot when I talk to you native folks here.

Damkerng T.

Somehow Tom Hanks' accent in 'Cloud Atlas' popped up in my mind.

Jim Reynolds

IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME.

StoneyB

18:29

It's sorta like my "real" name.

Jim Reynolds

(Suspensful music sputters, dies.)

StoneyB

@arrowfar Are there natives here? Are they restless?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds still echoed in the cloud for a few more cycles...

Anonymous

Who decides which name is really real? :-)

Jim Reynolds

O.O

user116848

18:31

@StoneyB I don't know :-)

StoneyB

@snailboat Context, context, context!

Jez

Hey! anyone here interested in... furniture?

user116848

Hi Jez

Damkerng T.

I know someone here moved some pieces of furniture a few hours ago. :-)

Jim Reynolds

Are we!!

Anonymous

18:33

Like, interior decorating?

Jez

if so, please follow my furniture proposal at: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/86175/…

i had a question and it didn't fit into the DIY stackexchange :-(

Damkerng T.

Ahh

StoneyB

"1.1 The world is the totality of facts, not things. 1.11 The world is determined by the facts, and by their being all the facts. 1.13 For the totality of facts determines what is the case, and also whatever is not the case. " --Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

2

Jim Reynolds

Ahh. Good idea. Good luck!

Jez

@JimReynolds dont want to participate?

StoneyB

18:35

@Jez Will it have a bookcases tag? I have a lifelong craving for bookcases. You can't have too many bookcases.

Jez

yeah of course

bookcases are furniture

StoneyB

Bookcases are the apotheosis of furniture.

Jim Reynolds

In my next life, I want to make furniture, maybe.

Damkerng T.

I think I abused a few bookcases.

Jim Reynolds

O.0

Damkerng T.

18:38

Those bookcases might be thinking, "We are bookcases, not PC cases!"

StoneyB

It's a slippery slope, Jim. I was invited to build a throne for a play my freshman year in college and didn't get out of theatre for 30 years.

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Jez

so

you guys will follow it then

Jim Reynolds

We might.

Jez

people are surrounded by furniture all day and yet they seem to care so little about it

StoneyB

18:41

If not for that apparently trivial incident of furniture-building I would have followed my (to that point) lifelong dream of becoming a (tenured) Professor of Comparative Germanic Philology and would now be widely admired and retired like John Lawler.

Jez

it's curious

Jim Reynolds

But you finally did, Stoney?

Jez

take chairs. they tend to be uncomfortable and break over time. not enough time and attention is paid to them

Jim Reynolds

Takes a chair.

StoneyB

Not at all. I succumbed to the siren lure of cabinetmaking and ended up a parasitic hack and corporate whore. Let that be a lesson to you.

Damkerng T.

18:43

I wish I hadn't designed my chairs myself!

Jim Reynolds

Why, Dam?

Why the wish?

Did they break?

StoneyB

Or, worse, did Dam break?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds It had no ergonomic thinking at all.

@StoneyB In a way!

(The most surprising thing about my chairs is that the carpenter was able to make them look good enough, based on my funny drawing!)

StoneyB

You should have had him make bookcases instead. Bookcases are a constant incentive to stand up and pluck a book from the shelves and read it: both your intellectual tone and your muscular tone are enhanced.

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Oh, but my bookcases were made by the same carpenter. :-)

StoneyB

18:49

Break up your chairs and employ the shards in building more bookcases.

Damkerng T.

That's very tempting!

StoneyB

Chairsitters of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your backaches!

Damkerng T.

And gain more bookcases!

Jim Reynolds

Actually, I'm a stander.

Except to sleep, and that's whar I blow now.

Goodnights, me lovelies!

Damkerng T.

Good night!

StoneyB

18:55

That's one small shelf for a man, one giant library for mankind. Defy the Establishment. Challenge Google Books. Écrasez l'infâme!

Good night, JR. Flights of angels &c.

Damkerng T.

0

Q: What is the meaning of homey?

I came across the word homey in the movie Coach Carter. That's how it was: Lyle, why don't you shut your month before I close it for good? You didn't do shit either the whole game. What, homey? [...]

meaning

StoneyB

@Jez I am inspired. I follow.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... easy to understand, difficult to explain.

Jez

@StoneyB woot, welcome to the furniture club

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