English Language Learners

Jim Reynolds

04:24

Doesn't ping @Dam.

Wonders if he pinged @Dam.

UNHIBERNATE, ROBOT!!

:'(

Man_From_India

06:57

@snailboat Just wandering about cleft sentences. I know the following is right.

> What he has done is spoilt the whole thing.

Is it possible for the following sentence to be correct?

> What he has done is spoil the whole thing.

But why is the following sentence correct?

> What he did was teach him a lesson.

Not

> What he did was taught him a lesson.

Damkerng T.

10:04

@JimReynolds Unhibernated

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Hmm... What he has done is spoilt the whole thing is hard to swallow for me.

What he has done is (that) he has spoilt the whole thing, perhaps.

Maybe it works in BrE? (the spelling of spoilt suggests that)

What he has done is spoil the whole thing is easier to swallow, but still sounds awkward to me.

I think What he did was (to) spoil the whole thing would sound better.

Damkerng T.

10:38

1

Q: The correct word for "belonging to a brush"

Simple question - say I have a paint brush and I want to state the color that the brush will use for painting, do I say The brush's color is red or The brushes color is red My reasoning is: Brush = singular (I have a brush) Brushes = plural (I have many brushes) Brush's ...

Why is English so hard!?

Good evening @arrowfar!

Jim Reynolds

What he has done is spoil the milk.

I know that's ok.

Damkerng T.

In paint programs, it's easier to call the color "selected color". I think "brush color" is also okay.

@JimReynolds nods -- But probably not with spoilt, I think.

Jim Reynolds

I kind of think not, but I'm not sure!

Damkerng T.

Interesting! That must be at least marginal, then.

Jim Reynolds

O.o

Damkerng T.

10:43

I mean the (spoilt) sentence is a marginal sentence.

Jim Reynolds

It's very simple: If I don't know, it's not important. O.O

Damkerng T.

lol -- Very Zen-ish!

Jim Reynolds

What I have done is eaten the whole thing. :

?

Spoilt is ok for past tense of spoil.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I just thought that it suggested that the writer was a BrE speaker.

Jim Reynolds

Because we might more likely use spoiled, but both are ok.

But I seem to not know how tenses can work in parts of a cleft.

O.O

Damkerng T.

10:47

@JimReynolds Curious!

Why does eaten the whole thing sound okay in that sentence?!

Jim Reynolds

I don't know, but I think people will say it.

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's because you said it, and you seem to practically be able to eat anything! :P

Jim Reynolds

Well, because: What I have done is (that I have) eaten the whole thing.

I am hungry right now!

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

What I did was barbecued and ate Man from India.

Damkerng T.

10:49

lol

0

A: Meaning of 'it is' in '...than it is that ...'

more important .... than it is [important]... (There is only an ellipsis of "important", not of "more") This is non-standard, and makes the reader think. Better to leave out "it is" altogether, which is standard.

It's very tempting to flag that "not an answer"!

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Flag away.

He must be drinking.

O.0

Damkerng T.

Okay, I did it. I hope that the implication that it's better as a comment would be quite obvious.

0

A: recently in Past Tenses

You can use the adverb "recently" in both the past simple and the present perfect, without any difference in meaning. The use of this adverb in the past is more common in AE while in the present perfect is more common in BE.

Hmm...

Is... it... so?

I think recently is tricky because it means two little different things when being used with the two tenses.

Let's see what dictionaries say...

Hehe. I think we can find much help from dictionaries. Anyway, the synonym list in a dictionary is a good clue.

recently: synonyms: not long ago, a short time ago, in the past few days/weeks/months, a little while back; lately, latterly, just now

I think in the past few days/weeks/months fits the present perfect perfectly.

And a little while back fits the past simple perfectly.

Yes, I've noticed the use of 'recently' on web sites. What is the difference then in: I've recently bought a CD player. AND I recently bought a CD player. — Svetlana 5 hours ago

But the difference between I've recently bought a CD player and I recently bought a CD player is another matter!

I've recently bought a CD player ~ Within the past few days/weeks/months this has happened: I bought a CD player.

Jim Reynolds

11:05

Um ... the idea that's so often stated is that the present perfect is used when there is a connection to the present.

Damkerng T.

(i.e. it's about tenses, not recently. This is an experiential use of the present perfect.)

Jim Reynolds

The distinction is seen as a rule by BrE users, while more like an option by us superior English users.

Damkerng T.

lol

Jim Reynolds

Well, but however funny, it's true, and I think it is why I did not get the last job that I wanted.

Breaks down and sobs.

Curses people from the UK.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no! They tested your perfect aspect?

Jim Reynolds

11:07

"What's the difference between the past simple and present perfect?"

I don't think they liked my answer.

Damkerng T.

I think your answer was fine.

2 mins ago, by Jim Reynolds

Um ... the idea that's so often stated is that the present perfect is used when there is a connection to the present.

Jim Reynolds

I gave a bit of a more technical answer.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Jim Reynolds

A finished event in an unfinished time period.

I think they just couldn't understand what I said.

Damkerng T.

cracking the meaning...

Jim Reynolds

11:08

Fire up your other processors.

Damkerng T.

I think I agree with you. Wait, it doesn't have to be finished, I think.

Jim Reynolds

You are right.

The main use.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Damkerng T.

Maybe they wanted like a thousand-word answer, and you gave them what? An eight-word answer. That was too succinct for some people. :P

Jim Reynolds

11:14

The problem was, perhaps, that they could not parse the meaning of my introductory answer.

I expanded on it, but I could see them not getting it.

Damkerng T.

Aww

Jim Reynolds

And that's when they decided I was stupid.

I might burn down their building tonight.

Damkerng T.

Hey, that reminds me of something another user posted here.

looking...

Jim Reynolds

reminds you of something

OF something! OF !!!!

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. Thanks!

Jim Reynolds

11:15

Certainly.

Damkerng T.

When I was focusing on something else, sometimes of went somewhere else!

Mar 13 at 11:56, by tchrist

Unfortunately, the famous maxim held true here as well: Those who know more than me will correct me if I am wrong; those who know less than me will correct me if I am right.

Jim Reynolds

0

A: Can we use recently with past tenses? When do we use recently with past tenses?

You can use the adverb "recently" in both the past simple and the present perfect, without any difference in meaning. The use of this adverb in the past is more common in AE while in the present perfect is more common in BE.

Oops. How do I format a numbered list?

Or just > and > with no numbers?

Damkerng T.

Good question. It's not easy to remember such things. You would ~~Just~~ begin each line with 1. (or 2., 3., etc.).

Jim Reynolds

How dare you begin that statement with "just"?

Damkerng T.

Can't I? (-_-)"

Jim Reynolds

11:19

Please edit: "Good question. It's not easy to remember such things. You would begin each line . . . ."

:D

Why, it suggests: That's simple, any fool would know.

O.O

Or it could suggest, that, to a sensitive person who's just remembered he didn't get a job that paid more than his current stupid job.

Damkerng T.

If you mentioned that one minute later, I wouldn't've been able to fix that.

Jim Reynolds

Yay!!!

Damkerng T.

Formatting is a pain.

Especially when it's not the same on the main site and in the chat!

Jim Reynolds

tchrist once told me something about lor

If I remember the three letters right.

Damkerng T.

lor?

I only know lotr.

Jim Reynolds

11:23

Yes. For example, in comments, or in chat, or both, we can apparently introduce formatting commands with it.

laughing on tile, rolling?

loving other trolls, regularly?

Damkerng T.

I meant Lord of the Ring!

Jim Reynolds

Oh yeah. I know I've heard it somewhere. Now I'm confirmed as an official non-nerd.

Sobs again.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Jim Reynolds

I need to drink some water before my tears dehydrate me.

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

Jim Reynolds

11:24

OK. What am I thinking about now? Recently?

The wheels of my mind turn slowly but true.

Damkerng T.

About formatting comments with commands? o_O

Or before that, the recently question.

Or possibly, a numbered list.

Can we say "What am I thinking about, recently?"

(I think not.)

Jim Reynolds

What have you been thinking about recently?

Sure.

Maybe there is a difference between BrE and AmE.

There certainly is in the way that AmE doesn't insist as often on present perfect when BrE will say it's necessary.

That is for sure!

I gots to go help theater company move some furniture or something.

Damkerng T.

Oh, come to think of it, She is living there, under the bridge, recently doesn't sound too odd. (But I think has been living is better, still.)

@JimReynolds Cool! You will come back stronger, I'm sure!

Jim Reynolds

:-)

is recently is another story, I think.

Yes. you can't make sense of "lor" and SE commands?

Your curiosity panels must be highly active now.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Ah, my curiousity was subsided by other activities which demand too much of my processing power. I'd love to hear the explanation if you will kindly explain, though. :-)

> Q: Why is it so dark in here?
A: 'Cause you didn't turn the light on, you robot!
(A robot was chatting with itself.)

Jim Reynolds

11:48

Explanation of lor or dark in here?

Damkerng T.

The lor, of course!

Jim Reynolds

Oh. I got it.

I can't recall anything more!

Damkerng T.

o_O

Jim Reynolds

I was asking about how to do a couple of things.

One of them was answered with  

Damkerng T.

Oh, I used to use   too!

Jim Reynolds

11:54

And he told me that code works in...

Damkerng T.

lor?

Jim Reynolds

Well. Sorry. I'm on-and-off now . . .

Damkerng T.

Moving some furniture? :-)

Jim Reynolds

That   works in the question area, and/or answer area.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

12:00

But for comments and/or chat . . .

Might need lor

That's all I remember.

Damkerng T.

:D

I can see that you were trying your best to unkindly explain it to me. :-)

I think if I had time, I might try to answer that recently question with a few of my maxims.

Jim Reynolds

Answer here and we can fix it up together!

Or are you busy?

Damkerng T.

I usually have plenty of short burst slots for ELL.

Jim Reynolds

We finished moving furniture and now we are in a ramen restaurant waiting for dinner!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Yay!

Jim Reynolds

12:07

:D

Damkerng T.

But something I think needs more carefully thoughts would require a longer time span.

I think I would start my answer with this maxim: not all verbs are equal, and then point out about state (stative) and event (durative) verbs.

Jim Reynolds

Ok. well, start with a burst if you want. Or did you already?

Damkerng T.

lol

Jim Reynolds

I have a personal preference for answers first, then explanation.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Like TL;DR summary, I think.

I usually like to invite the reader to think first.

Especially when I'm quite sure that the asker is likely to be a thinker, too.

(Which is opposite to homework questions. They just want their homework done.)

(Or when the OP just wants a kind of "confirmation".)

Jim Reynolds

12:14

That is perhaps a cultural difference.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

Westerners often want to get right to the point.

Damkerng T.

Probably! (Whereas Asians are busy to lay out the groundwork!)

Jim Reynolds

I get rep that way. Someone's answer might go on and on about x and y ... and I don't want to follow the train of thought.

Exactly!

Damkerng T.

I could withhold the answer but arouse the reader's attention by giving some clues right away, but not the answers.

Like, "This question is about verbs, the word 'recently', and the perfect aspect!"

Jim Reynolds

12:18

So, a very intelligent approach might consider the preferences of the culturally diverse ....

(Food arrived!!)

Damkerng T.

Yay (for the food)!

0

A: Can we use recently with past tenses? When do we use recently with past tenses?

There's no problem with using recently and the simple past. In that case, the reference is to an action that was completed or an event that took place in the recent past. There's a gray area, however, with recently and the present perfect. These two sound fine: I have purchased a CD recently...

Oh, this touch the very thing about the present perfect I found out last year!

We can use the present perfect with a past event (i.e. experiential use), but only for indefinite events.

Jim Reynolds

12:35

This building has been destroyed by fire.

A comment while touring a neighborhood to look for property to buy.

Is that a past event?

Damkerng T.

It is, and it's indefinite.

(Because it didn't say exactly when.)

Jim Reynolds

Ah. Yes.

Was destroyed six years ago.

Jim Reynolds

13:09

So "How were you recently?" is no good.

I think your answer is heading there.

Damkerng T.

nods (about no good). I didn't really try to head there!

Jim Reynolds

How have you been recently. Is good, good, good.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

Jim Reynolds

Yeah.

But you started with your tale of state and event verbs.

Damkerng T.

To sum it up, I think a few points I wanted to make are: a) some verbs are state-like, some are action-like

b) recently appears to have two main senses (and thus two main uses for the two aspects)

c) experiential use (of the present perfect) does exist

And somewhere in there, I think I will try to point out that state-like verbs and recently in the sense of "a while back" are incompatible.

Actually, *How were you recently? is a great example.

Jim Reynolds

13:16

I recently smelled bad, like a stinking Iranian. O.O

Damkerng T.

Sense verbs are odd balls!

(Which is why I would say Not all verbs are equal rather than saying that there are only two types of verbs: state vs. event.)

Jim Reynolds

Haha. Oddballs.

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. A single word! Thanks!

Jim Reynolds

Yeah.

I am listening.

Damkerng T.

Ah, that's all I think I would write in my answer.

I mean, I would avoid mentioning fuzzy things (like sense verbs) in the answer. That would complicate the explanation even further!

Jim Reynolds

13:20

Oh. Write it, or wait for snail to add her thoughts.

Damkerng T.

I thought I might, until I saw TRomano's and StoneyB's. I think those two are good enough already.

Jim Reynolds

Oh. Damn them!

Damkerng T.

Hee

Jim Reynolds

:-)

I still think I can't write a comprehensive answer.

Damkerng T.

I think you can if you focus only on the word recently and the two tenses.

Jim Reynolds

13:24

My students are inclined to use recently as always continuing into the present.

How are you recently?

Damkerng T.

That's another issue.

(It's a third tense!)

Frankly, I think it's passable.

But whether it's really passable or not, I think native speakers would know better than me.

Jim Reynolds

It is somewhat passable, I think. But hmm . . . .

They say related things that cross the line.

Damkerng T.

But not recommended, I'm sure.

Ahh

Jim Reynolds

I can't remember at the moment.

Yes. At best, informal and for speech.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

13:30

@JimReynolds Is that possible? I mean ate? :O

Damkerng T.

Good evening!

Man_From_India

Good evening Damkerng

Jim Reynolds

Hi. I forgot what ridiculous thing I said.

Man_From_India

Is it possible to have ate there? I thought eat is better

Damkerng T.

~~Just~~ You could follow the arrow before @JimReynolds. :P

Jim Reynolds

13:33

What was the whole sentence?

Damkerng T.

Ah, well. I think I can paste the message here:

3 hours ago, by Jim Reynolds

What I did was barbecued and ate Man from India.

Jim Reynolds

I'm on my phone now. And sleepy.

Man_From_India

But when sentences like what I have done is eaten Jim is correct, I wonder why the sentence what Jim did was ate Man is incorrect?

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds A perfectly understandable, and sleepy, excuse. :P

Man_From_India

13:34

:D

Jim Reynolds

At least sometimes we can have simple past and simple past.

Last Tuesday was the day when I saw her.

But I suddenly feel I can't answer grammar questions tonight.

Is it the questions, my brain, or both?

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's the furniture and the food. :-)

Jim Reynolds

Can we look at videos of kitties together?

:-)

Yes, and the drink.

Damkerng T.

:D

Damkerng T.

14:11

Interesting. I remember I saw that ELL has 15,001 questions last night.

Now it has 15,003 questions.

Jim Reynolds

Hmm.. So deleted or closed ones drop out at some point?

Damkerng T.

Not sure.

But this is the first time I've looked at the stat very closely. And that was like 10-15 hours apart.

0

Q: "Dole out the beatings" & "a pinky back into this pond"

John Wick: Hello, Winston. Winston: Jonathan. Now, as I recall... weren't you the one tasked to dole out the beatings, not receive them? John Wick: Rusty, I guess. Winston: To what do we owe the pleasure? John Wick: Iosef Tarasov. Winston: What about him? John W...

prepositions phrase-meaning

This is your department, I think. :-)

> Winston: Have you thought this through? I mean, chewed down to the bone? You got out once. You dip so much as a pinky back into this pond... you may well find something reaches out... and drags you back into its depths.

I think it was like, "You dip some of yours back into this pond". "By how much?" "So much as a pinky!"

The "dole out" part is rather straightforward, I think. (Just a GR one.)

0

Q: If 'public' is a collective noun then why is not 'people'?

I find that the word public is regarded as a collective noun and the subsequent verb is said to be used in singular form. Then why is not people a collective noun though the meaning of the two words is quite same?

nouns

Hmm... public is a collective noun?!

Sometimes, we are so easily to be confused between "items", "sets of items", and "types of items" in another language.

Hey, three comments in a row!

Man_From_India

14:38

I think it's not always true to place a singular verb after public, it can also be followed by a plural verb, especially in BrE I think. — Man_From_India 3 mins ago

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

Man_From_India

These two words mean similar things, and they have a good deal of overlap; but that is not quite equivalent to saying that they mean the same thing. Moreover, neither is used exclusively as a collective or count noun. Each has a wide range of uses, as you will soon learn if you look them up in a variety of dictionaries. — StoneyB 4 mins ago

Damkerng T.

Hmm...

Can we say two publics?

Man_From_India

no :-)

Damkerng T.

corpus.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=38469409

Your assertion about the plural verb after public in BrE appears to be valid!

Man_From_India

14:43

I checked only in British Dictionary :-)

Even in google books I have found about plural verbs.

Damkerng T.

So it happens in BrE and NzE!

In InE, I think it looks like it's 50-50.

Man_From_India

yes it's evident

true

I believe AuE and NzE follow mostly BrE, there is variation I agree

but still they mainly follow BrE. I might be wrong.

Damkerng T.

Yes, but AuE appears to prefer The public is!

Man_From_India

hmmm true

Damkerng T.

So, it's not wrong to say or write either The public is or The public are. It just gives some hints at who we are. Also, it's a good idea to be consistent.

Man_From_India

14:52

true

Damkerng T.

15:34

0

Q: past continuous - justified?

Look at this text please: Eventually, I lowered the window of the car and he said "Could you help me? ". I took the risk. He explained that while he was driving he had had a terrible argument and had decided to get out of the car. I understand both past perfect: The man explained something ...

grammar past-perfect

A good example for learners who can't handle backshifting well.

He explained that while he was driving he had had a terrible argument and had decided to get out of the car. -- It's a believable sentence that contains three different time spheres of events.

But English has only one level of backshifting.

(I remember that a learner came up with something akin to he *had had had a terrible argument when he wanted another extra level of backshifting!)

If such a usage is possible, I think we could write something like this:

> *He explained (1) that while he had been driving (2) he had had had had (4) a terrible argument and had had decided (3) to get out of the car.

Too bad, English won't accept that. So, it's kinda an art knowing what part we should backshift.

So it's like [this] [this] [before this] [before this].

Transcript for