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17:00
Yes it took some time to read, but chatting with you regarding that topic was helpful. Thanks :-)
@Man_From_India And thanks for pointing out "a" rather than "the". I had dismissed it as probably not relevant, but it's also a factor in how people parse the rest of the sentence.
@MARamezani Hi!
Oh gimme a minute.
17:09
@BenKovitz it was actually our robot who did it ;-)
@Man_From_India That's a very smart robot!
He he...correct...
Say, could you take a look at this answer and tell me if what it describes also happens in your own native languages?
Ben I just noted it. Can I do it tomorrow? I mean it will take some time to read.
@Man_From_India No rush. :)
17:13
ohh thanks :-)
i was planning to complete something before I go to bed :-)
@Man_From_India One is glad to be of service.
:-)
@Man_From_India Even adding a comment, like "this also happens in Telugu" or "this never happens in Telugu" would be informative for me.
I googled a little bit to see how common it is for languages to use motion verbs to describe (non-moving) shapes, but I didn't find anything.
Sep 19 '14 at 19:41, by Damkerng T.
> http://blog.sopwellmemories.org.uk/2013/07/have-we-got-oldest-cedar-tree-in-engl‌​and.html
Where was I? Hi! Oh no no no, I was at the "what's up?" part. So what's up?
> We did measure the girth about 5 years ago when we did our tree hugging exercise and we estimated that it was about 9m – or seven adult hugs.
17:17
Any good Qs lately?
Any hot discussions?
The verb describing the size of an object question reminds me of that "seven adult hugs".
@MARamezani Actually, I thought meatie's question about speed limits was quite good, though it got closed.
It's the typical way to estimate the size of a tree in my L1.
(When a tree is big enough to say "hug", I mean.)
Meatie's question? Let me peek back at the Newest Qs.
@DamkerngT. Ha! That's a funny usage. But that's using a verb as a noun. The thing I'm talking about, which I think confuses meatie, is the present-use use of a motion verb to indicate size or shape. To native English speakers, the meaning of those expressions is so obvious, they don't notice that it's actually weird. I'm wondering if a lot of people find it weird.
17:20
Oh, it's meatie!
@MARamezani I think this question is interesting, and might bring out a major difficulty of learning English. I answered it here.
meatie seems to have a bad reputation. ;)
I remember meatie said that he was a Chinese (yet Mandarin or any other Chinese dialect is not his L1.)
Ben I would've gone an hour without finding that one!
@MARamezani Yeah, it's been closed and will probably soon be deleted. I think the quick close was due to the fact that meatie posted it, after posting two similar questions in the previous few days.
Well I just saw something very similar to it, so I voted to close as it was a dup.
17:22
I wonder, though, if the reason meatie has asked essentially the same question over and over is because no one has answered the real "meat" of the question.
I remember that I've heard the phrase "a piece of land just big enough that a cat struggles before it's dead". Not sure if it's in Japanese or Chinese.
@BenKovitz Duh, the name says "meatie".
People keep referring meatie to dictionary definitions. When it comes to subtle differences between languages, I don't think dictionary definitions help.
Posting sth similar over and over? Classic Nima!
@MARamezani Yeah, I'm not sure if nima and meatie re-ask questions because they want help on homework assignments with many similar questions, or because the answers they're getting miss their real point of confusion.
17:26
@BenKovitz Hey, I just realized that my L1 is also weird that way! Here is a literal translation of a Thai phrase: This road eats the distance of 2 km.
@DamkerngT. Whoa!
Don't ask me why we use eat!
@DamkerngT. That's wild—to my AmE ears. But I can also understand it; it's not so different from motion=shape.
Indeed!
@DamkerngT. Maybe English uses the word "consumes" in a similar way. "That graphic consumes half the screen."
17:28
Oh, yes!
By saying "consumes", you bring in the connotation of "eating" a scarce resource, like food.
Actually, in English, you say that, too! "That graphic eats up half the screen."
I think it would be unlikely for the length of a road, though. "Eats" would usually imply using something up. (Hence the "up" that usually follows.)
I bet that This road consumes the distance of 2 km doesn't sound good in English.
@DamkerngT. Yep. :)
@BenKovitz I also think their reasking is because their problem doesn't get solved.
But clearly both languages are using a verb for continuous action to describe a static quality of something.
@MARamezani Interesting. Can you think of another example?
17:31
Consumption means to "use up," as in "energy consumption."
@DamkerngT. Really? Turkish has something like that too!
@MARamezani Hah!
Well, Thai and Turkish have T and i in common. :-)
But it's meaning is along the lines of: "Run into something"
== §Catalan == === §Verb === consumo first-person singular present indicative form of consumir == §Galician == === §Verb === consumo first-person singular present indicative of consumir == §Interlingua == === §Noun === consumo (uncountable) consumption == §Italian == === §Noun === consumo m (plural consumi) consumption, use, expenditure, wear ==== §Synonyms ==== dispendio, uso, usura ==== §Related terms ==== consumare consumatore consumerismo consumismo === §Verb === consumo first-person singular present of consumare == §Latin == === §Etymology === From con- (“with,...
@DamkerngT. And "i". Don't forget "i".
17:32
Hrm. I didn't realize posting a link would do that.
Awesome right?
@BenKovitz Ah, one-boxing is at work!
@MARamezani In Turkish, can you say stuff like "the walking path runs 2.5 miles"?
Use [title](URL) if you like :-)
@infinitesimal Thanks!
17:34
Hmm let me think of the appropriate translation of the verb we use for that.
You're very welcome @BenKovitz
Hmm, maybe you can't do it in Latin: "run" in Latin. Now I wonder if it's not normal in the Romance languages.
Wow :-O
you're a fast learner
:-)
;)
"Run" in Italian doesn't list "extend".
The best verb for it is "pass". Yeah "pass" as like: "The walking path passes 2.5 miles".
17:37
@MARamezani To say that the path is 2.5m long?
(Hehe. How should I abbr. miles? "m" looks like meters.)
No, to be "pass in Turkish = run in English" (in this context)
Come to think of it, the word "extend" comes from a Latin word for "to stretch out".
@DamkerngT. That's the worst mistake a student like me can make. Whoa I'm a poet.
@MARamezani Does "pass" mean "go past something", or just to move along?
Gimme a minute. Reviewing back at chemistry.
17:40
@DamkerngT. mi is a common abbreviation for miles.
@MARamezani A man can rap!
@BenKovitz Thanks!
"m" is the official abbreviation for meter.
@infinitesimal Hah! Sb understands me now!
Hmm, in Latin, "extendō" doesn't seem to mean to have a certain length or area. Then again, maybe that sense just isn't listed in the Wiktionary.
But we also have mph and such.
17:44
True, but m/s is meters per second
@BenKovitz No, just like the meaning of "run" [in Turkish] it means that for example "the path runs for x miles and ends in smwhr.
I wonder if stretch being used that way in Thai is one of the results of translation works in the past.
Or m*s^-1
@infinitesimal That's true, too!
@DamkerngT. mph and mpg were made by nonscientists (better put it nonnerds) :P
17:45
It's just a conventional use :-)
@MARamezani How about when you use "pass" as a verb of motion? Does it mean going beyond something, like "I passed Albuquerque ten miles ago" or "I'll get into the passing lane and pass this slow-moving car"?
That applies also.
@MARamezani Interesting.
Now I'm wondering if there are any languages that don't do this at all.
Even "pass" in Turkish can mean "shatter"!
@MARamezani Wow. It's amazing to me that anyone can learn a second language!
17:49
Or "go through".
Or "forgive"!!!!
@MARamezani Actually, something of the "forgive" metaphor works in English: "I'll let that pass". It doesn't exactly mean "forgive"; it means I'll ignore something wrong that you did.
Turkish is the language of multiple meaning for a single word or even a single pronunciation for a single word! Amazing isn't it?
@MARamezani How many meanings would you say a single pronunciation of a word typically has in Turkish?
Depends on the word of course.
Let me think of an example.
Chinese (Mandarin) is the most extreme example of this I know. There are so few words in the language, that a typical word has about 7 main senses, distinguished by different written characters, each of which can have still more senses in different contexts.
17:54
Oh, there goes: دوز with the pronunciation /du:z/. With this specific pronunciation, it means "right" or "smooth (surface)" or "vertical". Another pronunciation which doesn't exist in English AFAIK is something between /da(that's supposed to be upside down, but my keyboard doesn't have pronunciation thingies)uz/. The word means "boar" in this pronunciation.
@MARamezani Interesting. It's amazing how native speakers find these things easy to keep separate, while (adult) L2 learners get confused.
Well I suppose I'm as good as a native as long as I'm born and living in smwhr like the US.
Where did that "be" come from?!
@MARamezani Yeah, I think living in the country, speaking with the natives everyday, teaches it better than anything.
The human brain seems to slurp up language.
Precisely.
Hmmmmmmm yummy!
Does meatie never accept answers? I was hoping to see which ones have gotten through and which ones left only confusion.
18:00
Eating ice cream and shivering at the same time.
You know, it's snowed a lot here today.
@MARamezani It's –6º right here (Indiana, in the U.S.). No new snow today. Where are you?
Iran! A country with four seasons present at the same time!
I imagine Iran as mostly a warm place, but still with trees and greenery. Now I'm going to google for the climate…
Don't google.
I'm google here alright!
Will something bad happen?
Ha! :)
18:04
Iran's northwest are two states named "East Azerbaijan" and "West Azerbaijan".
+6ºC in Baku today. ;)
I'm in Tabriz, located in East Azerbaijan.
It's snowed recently, so
Whoa, –1ºC in Tabriz. Yeah, if you get below freezing, that's cold enough to make you appreciate it when Spring returns.
I'd expect a five to ten degrees fall in temperature here.
Ack!! The forecast for tonight (in Indiana) is –20ºC.
18:07
Really?
Good for you. :)
Yep. It usually dips down to –20ºC a few times each winter.
Forget weather forecasts!
The wind makes you feel like it's -50, and no dang computer process can tell you that.
Actually, the occasional "dip" to –20ºC is fun. What's not fun is living in places where it stays that way almost every day.
Yeah, the cold...
A couple weeks ago when it hit –20ºC, I ran around the block and forgot to wear gloves. My fingers hurt for about an hour afterward!
18:09
As I mentioned before, it's three years that my cold hasn't been cured. It just worsens and lessens.
I think it was a little windy, too.
Yikes, having a cold is no fun.
Well, you're generally right that Iran is warm hot.
We're in the northwest part, and the mountains "chillen" the climate here.
@MARamezani Aren't there also plenty of trees and nice green places, as well as desert?
Oh, gimme a minute.
Ha! Nice coinage of a verb ("chillen").
LOTS of trees, then!
The dark brown is mountains.
The yellow is the major deserts.
The dark green is the jungles.
NO, NOT THAT MUCH TREES!
OK, not so many trees. ;)
18:17
The world's hottest spot is "Gandom Berian Shahdad" in Iran. Don't bother me with the spelling of that phrase! (It translates to "Shahdad grilled wheat).
It's located in Lut desert.
Hmm, the pictures on this page do indeed make it appear very, VERY hot.
Was that sarcasm? Those pics were too mild!
> Seven years of satellite temperature data show that the Lut Desert in Iran is the hottest spot on Earth. The Lut Desert was hottest during 5 of the 7 years, and had the highest temperature overall: 70.7°C (159.3°F) in 2005. (NASA maps by Jesse Allen and Robert Simmon, using MODIS data from Mildrexler et al., 2011.
No sarcasm. You mean those are the nice pictures, intended to attract tourists, and the real pictures are worse?
@BenKovitz Heh. I don't know what "worse" means actually! I don't think those were to attract tourists. Any maniac with a love to see the "most"s in the world will take a look at figures and stats and will take a visit there.
Actually, yes. The sort of tourist who wants to go to the hottest spot on Earth wants to see the bleakest and most lifeless pictures possible.
18:23
Let me do a persian search maybe I'll find better pics.
This one looks almost like another planet.
Or maybe this one.
This one is more giving the desert sense at least:
Oh a shooting star!
Hi @CopperKettle!
That does indeed look like a desert.
Hi, Copperkettle!
Can I make a wish?
@BenKovitz That's rather cold!
@BenKovitz Hi, Ben!
18:27
@CopperKettle Can you take a look at this answer and tell me if the same thing is common or not in Russian?
@MARamezani What is your wish?
@MARamezani Yes, go ahead! And good evening (0:
Actually there's a rumor that some passengers actually saw all of their wheat "grilled" and that was when this place was named.
@BenKovitz okay, I'll try to take a look..
@MARamezani I was wondering if something like that was the origin of the name.
My wish? I wish I be the nerdiest chemist in the world!
18:29
@MARamezani That last picture is extraordinary. That one looks almost like a painting—of another planet.
@MARamezani A truly admirable aspiration! I hope you get your wish.
Thanks Ben.
Oh let me find a "hot" image.
@MARamezani Ah, now I understand the hexagon.
Wow! Take a look at this:
Modern art.
@MARamezani Yep! Was that done by the wind?
@BenKovitz Yes, we can have something similar to "Golden Gate Park stretches for miles" in Russian, using the word простирается in the present tense.
18:31
Dunno.
@CopperKettle Well, maybe meatie isn't Russian, then. :)
@CopperKettle Thanks for the info! Now I
Now I'm wondering if there really are any languages where it's not common.
@BenKovitz I wondered twice in this chat that Meatie might be an AI developed to winkle out the intricacies of meaning that the majority of people get instantly.
His (her) questions are so strange.
@CopperKettle I'd been giving meatie the benefit of the doubt, thinking that maybe meatie just has a native language that doesn't share many of the metaphors in common use in English. Maybe your theory is right.
Hmm, the English wiktionary doesn't have an entry for простирается.
Not even стирается.
Wow, this bald insect actually lives there. Shame on us hairy humans!
@BenKovitz Maybe Meatie's author uses StackExchange to train his AI creation. Try "простираться"
@MARamezani I wouldn't mess with that bug!
@MARamezani a cutie (0:
= §Русский = == §простираться I == === §Морфологические и синтаксические свойства === про-сти-ра́ть-ся Глагол, несовершенный вид, непереходный, возвратный, тип спряжения по классификации А. Зализняка — 1a. Соответствующий глагол совершенного вида — простереться. Корень: -простир-; суффикс: -а; глагольное окончание: -ть; постфикс: -ся. [Тихонов] === §Произношение === МФА: [prə.sʲtʲɪ.ˈɾa.ʦə] === §Семантические свойства === ==== §Значение ==== распространяться по какому-либо пространству; занимать какое-либо пространство ◆ Не указан пример употребления (см. рекомендации). о руках, ...
Not even простираться! Or стираться.
Yeah, the Russian one has it. :)
стираться would mean "to wash clothes" (a washing verb specific to clothes and other fabrics)
@CopperKettle Ha! My Russian vocabulary is sadly minimal. Just enough to get into trouble.
18:37
Gotta go (0;
@BenKovitz heh (0:
@CopperKettle ttyl!
I don't know why Copper always puts a zero between :). Is that his nose? :)
@MARamezani I think it is.
Or maybe I'm noseless.
Uh oh, I need to get going, or I'll miss a class…
18:41
Bye!
Is there anyone that I can nag with?
Or am I gonna get an alone? :$
19:04
Hello everyone
Hi Freddy!
 
1 hour later…
Anonymous
20:36
@BenKovitz Nice answer! The key of course is that English verbs of motion are stative in this sense, so they readily combine with the present simple
Hi @snailboat!
Anonymous
Hello
I got an alone. Are you interested in nagging about something today?
Or talking?
Whichever you like.
Anonymous
@BenKovitz It's a realis-irrealis contrast.
Anonymous
I'm just stopping in for a moment
20:39
Oh you missed the shooting star!
Anonymous
@BenKovitz Well, no one ever learned to speak any language by reading a grammar book.
CopperKettle paid a visit!
Anonymous
But on the other hand, most non-native speakers end up with fossilized interlanguage to one extent or another
Anonymous
And identifying the problematic bits and explaining them accurately can make it possible for a learner to continue acquiring the language, moving beyond the point where they're stopped
@snailboat In fact, the problem concerning the majority of the learners and teachers here is exactly that: Grammar knowledge: Infinitesimal Can you speak English? No.
Anonymous
20:41
So in that sense, grammar can be pretty useful. You just have to use it the right way.
Anonymous
@MARamezani Are you aware that infinitesimal means 'infinitely small'?
That was sarcasm.
Anonymous
It doesn't make sense
When in sarcasm: Infinitesimal = Infinitely big
Anonymous
It would make sense as sarcasm if you said "Grammar knowledge: infinite. Can you speak English? No."
Anonymous
20:43
@MARamezani That's double-reverse sarcasm.
Heh.
Exactly.
Anonymous
Which doesn't work.
Shouldn't. I'm supposed to respect them.
But sending the message at the same time.
Thanks. Fun for playing games.
20:45
Wow, it's my lucky day. I'm back in the room when you're here! @snailboat
@DamkerngT. Six alones baby!
Anonymous
@BenKovitz Though many people spend their whole adult lives in foreign countries and never pick up certain things. Interacting with native speakers is necessary but not sufficient
Mimicking the rock-and-roll singers
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. There's a fun little computer game called Influent!
Anonymous
It wouldn't be of any use to you
Anonymous
20:49
But
Anonymous
Basically it's a simulator where you walk around a house and identify household items like toiletries, food, dishes, and so forth, in a foreign language
Anonymous
It has about 400 words total to learn
Anonymous
And it's available in a bunch of languages
Anonymous
Apparently they have a Thai version planned!
I bet!
Anonymous
20:51
I thought it was a neat idea :-)
Anonymous
I didn't learn anything from it, but it was neat!
Augmented reality?
Anonymous
Well, there's a little guy and he walks around his pre-made house
@snailboat Sounds like sth I'd do when I get bored, like a few hours ago.
Oh, I see.
Anonymous
20:52
When you click on stuff, it shows the word for that stuff and it pronounces it
@snailboat Haha!
Anonymous
And then you can do little quizzes where you have to find "detergent" or "shampoo" or "bowl" or "pineapple"
Wait. How advanced are the words?
Anonymous
Not very advanced overall
Believe it or not, the word detergent wouldn't work in Frankfurt.
20:53
I believe it.
Believe me!
Anonymous
Well, it was 洗剤(せんざい) when I played
@snailboat Where the hell was the pineapple?!
Anonymous
@MARamezani In the kitchen! :-)
Oh then I'll call kitchen windows as household items from now on!
Anonymous
20:56
Anonymous
See, he's looking at the pineapple. :-)
Anonymous
I should've drawn a circle...
Oh, it has the Japanese feeling with it.
Reminds me of those neat anime.
What's with the guys hair? Fought with a cat?
Anonymous
Anonymous
20:58
I drew a circle!
Anonymous
And an arrow.
Anonymous
In case you missed the circle.
You should have drawn an arrow in case I missed the arrow!

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