English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

00:17

I recently saw this: "Let's eat Grandma" vs "Let's eat, Grandma". Be careful of your punctuation. Grandma's life depends on it! — TecBrat 4 hours ago

Indeed.

CopperKettle

01:35

@DamkerngT. Heh (0:

@StoneyB Thank you, @StoneyB! So it's "the glow of the sun set behind the hill", and "your day" is "the day (period of time) with you". I'm glad the lover is not dead after all!

CopperKettle

02:20

Word of the day: cipher

It turns out it meant "zero" originally!

books.google.ru/…

(had struck upon a reference to a person as "a whining cipher" and started checking with dictionaries)

Damkerng T.

Cipher as zero is new to me, too.

CopperKettle

Good morning, Damkerng!

I was just reading Facebook, saw a mention of the movie Boyhood, went to read what folks on IMDB say about it, and struck upon this: "Over the course of 12 years Mason, a thoughtful, energetic, and charming little boy turns into a passive, whining cipher who walks like a zombie. "

I first thought he turned into a person who enjoys mathematics.

Damkerng T.

Was that the reality movie?

Ah, yes.

CopperKettle

Yes, a kind of a semi-reality movie, with the same cast filmed over a decade.

Damkerng T.

I haven't seen it yet, but from that quote, it really sounds real.

CopperKettle

02:30

I usually try to read negative reviews, because they give away the real values of a movie, sometimes prompting to watch it.

Sometimes people severely disagree with the movie's message and write about it, making no mention of the technical details. That's a good sign that the movie is good.

That it sparks discussion.

Damkerng T.

I've heard the promotion of the movie here. The feedback of the preview night appeared to be really good.

CopperKettle

My sister seemed to like it (I was reading her Facebook post)

Damkerng T.

nods

0

Q: What's 'ironic' about dismissing charges of a police officer who attacked a samaritan?

[First 3 paras herefrom] Tonie Farrell is a grandmother, and the sort of person who posts messages on her Facebook page that say, "be an encourager. The world has enough critics already." So why was she beaten and permanently maimed by an Ontario Provincial Police officer when she'd stop...

meaning-in-context

CopperKettle

The Russian word for "a number", цифра (tsifra) is a direct relative to cipher.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle The Thai word for cipher is เข้ารหัส (lit. [in-code]).

CopperKettle

02:43

Does it sound like "cipher", or does it derive from a Thai root?

Damkerng T.

I think it's a Thai word combined with a Sanskrit word.

(It sounds nothing like "cipher".)

CopperKettle

oh. The Russian word for cipher is шифр (shifr), also derived from the Arabic sifr (0:

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CopperKettle

Yes. (0:

Damkerng T.

Hello @StoneyB!

CopperKettle

02:48

The top of the morning to you, @StoneyB!

@DamkerngT. A simple question: the irony is in the fact of such charges.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I'm thinking that this Ironically is a bit odd. Maybe it's different in Canadian English. (I remember something similar in Ironic.)

I think, judging from the sentence, their "irony" is that the grandmother and the officer got the opposite results.

CopperKettle

Oh

Damkerng T.

(And has nothing to do with our expectation of the outcome of the situation.)

CopperKettle

I thought is was ironic that a policeman who maimed an old woman would lay charges against the grandma.

Damkerng T.

That would make sense, but I would expect they'd written something else in place of that sentence.

CopperKettle

02:59

nods

Damkerng T.

Anyway, it was very unfortunate for the grandma.

CopperKettle

I recall how an old person who survived the Leningrad Siege was held for 24 hours by the police by coming out with a sign "Peace to the World" in St Petersburg this spring.

Damkerng T.

Oh! And he survived!

CopperKettle

novayagazeta.spb.ru/articles/8490

He was just a kid during the Siege

He went to protest Russia's agression against Ukraine

Damkerng T.

nods

Damkerng T.

04:31

If you want to focus on the continuous action, use present continuous (hence the name!), if you focus on the fact, use simple present. "while" is a pretty good indicator for cont., "when" depends on context as it can mean a certain time ("when Harry met Sally") or a stretch of time (as in your examples). — Stephie 4 hours ago

I think there is something more to just that. Maybe I'll check it out later.

Damkerng T.

What is this kind of error?

> Since 10 hours ago, I have been waiting for you for 9 hours up until now.

Anonymous

05:28

I've seen the word tawny a lot of times in my life

Anonymous

But I never really knew what it meant

Anonymous

I guess context was insufficient for me to understand

Anonymous

and I never looked it up until now

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Whatever tawny is, it must be related to owl. :-)

Anonymous

Oh! Yes, I think so!

Damkerng T.

05:31

Possibly related to tan.

Anonymous

Apparently so!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I dunno

Anonymous

I would just say "it doesn't make sense" if someone asked me

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I mean, it's sort of grammatical.

Anonymous

That might not be the most satisfying answer :-)

Damkerng T.

05:36

> I am wondering if we could replace "much longer" in the stand of "any more".
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/44589/3281

I wonder if that sentence makes sense to you.

Anonymous

They must have meant in the stead of

Anonymous

Not that that works entirely, but

Anonymous

Either that, or they're using stand to mean something like "place"

Damkerng T.

I speculated "place".

Probably it is a case of L1 interference.

In any case, it seems like it's not too difficult for you to repair the sentence.

I was so confused because the sentence he wants to do such a replacement is:

> Neither sides is inclined to protract the dispute much longer; a settlement is expected presently.

Anonymous

Ah, it seems to have other issues

Damkerng T.

05:41

The first time I read his wondering, I thought he wanted to replace "much longer" in the place of "any more" and I couldn't find "any more"!

(Also, Neither sides is is problematic.)

Anonymous

I'd personally rather not use protract that way

Damkerng T.

Me either.

Anonymous

Maybe draw out

Damkerng T.

I'd use continue. (My English is plainer. :-)

Anonymous

Protract is most common in the form protracted by a significant margin

Damkerng T.

05:46

nods -- And it's rather formal, I think.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=36130125

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if it will go well with any more.

Wow! 1290:17:8!

Anonymous

You can treat protracted as a derived adjective

Anonymous

A separate word which is far more common than the verb protract

Anonymous

That's what dictionaries do.

Anonymous

05:49

Note that Macmillan doesn't even have an entry for protract

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CopperKettle

07:11

Another two-liner puzzle:

No one who once the glorious sun has seen,
And all the clouds, and felt his bosom clean
For his great Maker’s presence, but must know
What ’tis I mean, and feel his being glow:
Therefore no insult will I give his spirit
By telling what he sees from native merit.

I don't get the last two lines here (0: Won't he give insult to the spirit of God, or to the spirit of some person.. and to what word does "native merit" relate - "sees from native merit" (what's that?) or "telling from native merit" (what's that?)

bartleby.com/126/31.html

It's a very beautiful poem. Some lines seem to break out from the rhyme: "Perhaps to see shapes of light, aerial lymning", for example, but maybe I pronounce them wrong way.

Damkerng T.

08:54

Which one sounds better?
a) Will you come and visit me in the hospital when I have my operation?
b) Will you come and visit me at the hospital when I have my operation?

Damkerng T.

09:06

@CopperKettle I think this native means "since birth".

Anonymous

09:19

@DamkerngT. If you force me to pick, I'll go for in

Damkerng T.

09:33

@snailboat Ah, that sounds like you wouldn't want to choose. :-)

Anonymous

Well, it's common to do forced-choice experiments where people have to pick one or the other

Anonymous

Though if this were that sort of experiment, it would be rather poorly designed, I suppose :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I didn't intend to make it such an experiment. I read Maulik's original with "in the hospital", and I thought to myself that I would rather use at in this specific sentence, so I asked. :-)

Shipping cost is a real pain. (I ordered a few books today.)

studied in studied workers serves as an adjective. On the other hand, it, in workers studied it's a verb. — Maulik V 2 mins ago

Hmm... Interesting point of view.

Maybe it's debatable.

Anonymous

Hmm, maybe at is better.

Anonymous

I dunno.

Anonymous

09:42

You could check corpora. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. We need complete sentences.

Anonymous

Otherwise we don't know.

Damkerng T.

> It was this sentence:
a) Among 425 studied workers, the mean age was 32.
b) Among 425 workers studied, the mean age was 32.

Anonymous

But it's unlikely to be an adjective.

Anonymous

Yeah, you can safely ignore his comment.

Damkerng T.

09:44

nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yay! Books!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I ordered three books. After I completed the order for a while, I thought I wanted another book (which is only about $6), however, I just realized the "Combined Order" option on Amazon doesn't exist anymore. And the shipping would cost me another $19.95!

So I added that $6 book to my Wish List instead. :-)

Anonymous

Eep!

Anonymous

With shipping like that, ebooks sound like they'd be a pretty good idea

Damkerng T.

Yep!

And I found a lot of books that won't ship to here.

I think my question won't get more answers.

I found "false title" today. I now think in present participle form is a case of false title.

Anonymous

10:01

Oh, well, I think the is required in the first and not in the second, like you said

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think "false title" is only for the second one.

0

Q: 'Haha' over 'lol' -Do natives consider 'hahaha' as an offensive gesture?

Most of the times, I don't lol. Yes, there's no loudness in my laugh at all. And, 'lol' is probably used by everyone on the Internet/mobile even though when they laugh little. 'lol' is also used when the matter is not of some joke [However, I strictly avoid such usage]. For instance, in chat......

word-usage word

I bet it will be a hot question soon.

Anonymous

10:31

> And, 'lol' is probably used by everyone on the Internet/mobile even though when they laugh little.

Anonymous

Not so. Some people never use 'lol'.

Anonymous

You can probably find a lot of them 'round these parts, if you look :-)

Anonymous

I'm not sure what he means by loud and little.

Anonymous

I think "out loud" just means "using your voice", not "at a high volume"

Damkerng T.

I think these emotiwords are context-dependent. Both sides would try to understand the intended meaning of the other.

@snailboat Ah, I think he means he doesn't like to say LOL when he chuckles.

Anonymous

10:34

For many speakers I think 'lol' has become something of a discourse particle

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that's based on a misunderstanding of what the literal meaning of "laugh out loud" is

Anonymous

Of course, for most but not all speakers, 'lol' is used online and not in speech

Anonymous

Certainly a lot of younger speakers also say it (or variations)

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think lol for some means just "let their laugh out", while to some it means "laugh loudly". :-)

Anonymous

Which should be the first clue that it's not strictly tied to indicating when laughter is vocalized

Anonymous

10:38

@DamkerngT. It had never occurred to me that someone might interpret it the latter way

Anonymous

Honestly, I'd expect it to be used only rarely with its literal meaning these days

Anonymous

(And I don't think that is its literal meaning)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think we just have witnessed one speaker thinking that.

Anonymous

Sure. It had never occurred to me that someone might until I saw this post

Anonymous

I did actually mean native speakers when I wrote that, though

Damkerng T.

10:41

Argh! It's getting cold again. (I can't see the sunlight anymore.)

Anonymous

Me either.

Anonymous

Of course, it's almost 3 in the morning.

Anonymous

So that's expected behavior. The sky is working!

Damkerng T.

(By the cold, I mean 25 C. :-)

Anonymous

I'm always glad when the sky isn't broken.

Anonymous

10:42

One noon in my youth, the sky turned black as night

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Me too, when the sky isn't falling!

Anonymous

At the time, if I'd known to file a bug report, I definitely would've

Damkerng T.

LOL

(Sometimes I wonder if typing lol is better than LOL. I mean LOL makes it look like it's rather loud.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it does

Anonymous

Lowercase lol is very common

Anonymous

10:44

It has been pronounced in my mind as a single word since I was a teenager

Damkerng T.

As a single word?

Anonymous

Not as an acronym, L.O.L.

Anonymous

Though I think you can find people for whom it's an acronym (older speakers?)

Damkerng T.

Oh! Something like loll, perhaps?

Anonymous

Yeah, pronounced like that.

Anonymous

10:45

Rhymes with bull

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

In chat logs, I see lowercase lol outnumbering capital LOL by a factor of twenty-to-one

Damkerng T.

Maybe I should get back to use small lol again.

Anonymous

Up to you. Capital LOL works fine.

Damkerng T.

(I can have three shades of lol now. lol, LOL, LOLOTF!)

Anonymous

10:47

It fits with the way you actually capitalize and punctuate sentences.

Anonymous

in online chatting, using all lowercase, even for words like i, is very common

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

and terminal punctuation is usually left out

Anonymous

when i check the same chat logs for i versus I, i find that i outnumbers I by a factor of two-to-one

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

10:48

which is really quite normal for chatting

Anonymous

in that sort of situation, using final punctuation can be marked behavior

Anonymous

writing a period at the end can seem emphatic.

Anonymous

or serious.

Damkerng T.

Will an all-lowercase novel come out some day, I wonder?

Anonymous

probably already has

Damkerng T.

10:49

Oh!

Anonymous

let's see

Anonymous

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllLowercaseLetters

Anonymous

> this is how angolan-portuguese writer valter hugo mãe writes his entire books and signs his own name.

Anonymous

> charles bukowski uses only lowercase in his early works.

Anonymous

Maybe you can find an example if you look up one of those authors

Anonymous

10:51

Ahh, back to capitalizing.

Anonymous

It feels nice capitalizing stuff.

Anonymous

But whether I capitalize and punctuate depends on who I'm talking to and via what medium

Anonymous

Stack Exchange has just a slight tinge of seriousness to it that makes capitalization feel appropriate to me

Anonymous

But I still often omit final punctuation in chat here

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

10:52

How about you? Do you like capitalizing stuff?

Anonymous

I have one friend who always capitalizes and punctuates properly regardless of medium

Anonymous

That can make you seem very, well, serious!

Damkerng T.

I tend to be a reductionist. And typing in chat the same way I type other stuff makes it easier for me.

Anonymous

That makes sense.

Damkerng T.

I think I usually feel a bit uneasy when I have to type i instead of I in some chat rooms. (Not to be too standing out.)

Anonymous

10:54

uneasy

Anonymous

Also possible: feel a bit of unease

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Although I think the other way sounds more common

Anonymous

(without checking any corpora, etc.)

Damkerng T.

I haven't used the word unease and uneasy for quite a long while.

Anonymous

10:56

It's not especially common.

Anonymous

But uneasy is more common than unease

Anonymous

It's in the top 10k words in COCA, which probably reflects a higher-than-average use in fiction

Anonymous

Yep.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Maybe it's like the other pair comfortable-comfort.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=36133260

Anonymous

10:58

Although it's around #6600 in COCA's word frequency list, I bet if you pulled out fiction it'd be significantly less frequent

Anonymous

Still not a rare word, exactly, but not so high up the list.

Damkerng T.

Ah, it's a fiction word!

Anonymous

Well, you can use it in real life, too.

Anonymous

It's just not as common in, say, conversation.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: Diversified product and diversified person

Is it ok to use the word "diversified" for a human the same way we use it for a product? For example is it correct to say "he is a diversified person" or "he is a diversified specialist"? Does it sound natural?

usage word

> Is it ok to use the word "diversified" for a human the same way we use it for a product?

Hmm... my problem is I can't think of a good example of "diversified" being used with a product.

Anonymous

11:24

I think investments (or a portfolio, etc.) can be diversified

Anonymous

An economy can be diversified

Anonymous

Species can diversify over time as they evolve

Anonymous

> By the end of the decade, the Mexican cartels had largely supplanted their Colombian counterparts, and they began to diversify their product line, selling drugs such as methamphetamines and heroin in addition to cocaine.

Damkerng T.

Investments, yes, but products aren't quite the same as investments.

Anonymous

There's an example with product nearby :-)

Anonymous

11:26

From COCA

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=36133596

Damkerng T.

Ah, I was about to mention that it would make more sense to talk about product line.

Anonymous

I think you're right!

Damkerng T.

Haha, this is funny. I couldn't find my cat. I had walked around my house looking all over for him. I just realized that I locked him up in his room. :-)

(I would've changed the door to one with a cat-door if it had been easier to find.)

Anonymous

Aww! Hehe

Damkerng T.

11:37

I think he is sulking a bit.

Anonymous

0

Q: Can i express the same meaning with confined vocabulary?

For a English learner like me, learning new words and making them absorbed deeply in my mind is not an easy task. I always find it difficult while deciding which word is suitable to use. Furthermore, I often forget the words that follows the last one in saying a sentence, which makes me stop to...

word-usage word-choice vocabulary expressions

Damkerng T.

Ah, I left a comment to that question!

Anonymous

I think that's a good question

Anonymous

I think it's a good idea to get used to using "simple" words

Anonymous

(Meaning common words)

CopperKettle

11:41

"confined" vocabulary - instead of "small" - already not a simple word (0:

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

Limited might be a more natural choice

Damkerng T.

Also, I think vocabulary is countable in the title.

Anonymous

Yeah, probably.

Anonymous

With a limited vocabulary

Damkerng T.

11:51

2

Q: Meaning of "A matter of worse or of better"

After listening to The Bed Song from Amanda Palmer multiple times, I can't seem to be able to translate "Is it a matter of worse or of better?" in my head. And I finally ask you, what was the matter? Was it a matter of worse or of better? Is it kind of a poetic licence for "for the wor...

meaning-in-context

A surprise! It hasn't been closed! (There isn't even one close vote, but there is no answer either.)

Anonymous

12:03

Sometimes on Japanese.SE, we get questions like this one:

Anonymous

-1

Q: A Few Simple Japanese Questions

Because these questions are a bit basic, I've decided to collaborate them into 'one'. How do you say and write 'this is' and 'that is' in Japanese? Expanding on this, how would you say and write'these are' and 'those are'? Around this topic, are there any male and female words in Japanese? Also...

grammar

Anonymous

I haven't seen very many questions like this on ELL

Anonymous

Maybe because it's harder for learners to communicate that much in English in the first place?

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think that's the case.

Anonymous

There are some interesting sub-questions in there

Damkerng T.

12:04

Hmm, I think the phrase Yoroshiku doesn't mean quite the same thing as "Nice to meet you."

Anonymous

Like, they ask about the devoicing of final /u/ in /desu/ and /masu/

Anonymous

That's right, it doesn't, but sometimes when translating we pick phrases that don't match the original meaning because they fit the expected cultural context in the target language

Anonymous

I meant to type /u/! Oops.

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

(They write that "su" isn't pronounced, but I doubt they actually meant that―and I got confused turning it over in my head!)

Anonymous

12:07

One interesting situation in which the /u/ must be retained is when you lengthen the final vowel slightly and add a rising intonation to indicate a question without using the question particles /ka/ or /no/

Damkerng T.

I think most English language learners would have much less trouble if they cared more about pronunciation.

Anonymous

I feel like focusing on Japanese phonetics and phonology helped me a lot

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

I also feel like having a more integrated mental model in which I connect speech with writing helps a lot, too

Damkerng T.

Yay! (again)

Anonymous

12:11

That may be challenging in languages with relatively deep orthography

Damkerng T.

Oh, that reminds me of an argument on ELL about the teachers should avoid having learners read aloud!

@snailboat If English is a deep one (and I think it's deep enough), I still think the orthography isn't a problem at all.

(I wrote isn't but I would pronounce that is not.)

Anonymous

quarplet.com/moraemasu.mp3

Anonymous

You can hear the /u/ at the end!

Damkerng T.

I remember I've heard some senior citizens always use de-su, quite clearly.)

Anonymous

It's dialectal.

Anonymous

12:14

Some people never reduce the final /u/.

Anonymous

And it varies how reduced it is―sometimes it's devoiced but present in mouth shape, sometimes it's entirely deleted

Damkerng T.

Oh, I heard "moraimasu".

Anonymous

There's really a lot of variation!

Damkerng T.

I bet that the clip was from an anime. :-)

Anonymous

Totsuzen desu kedo, o-hanashi shitai koto ga aru no de, issho ni kite moraemasu?

Damkerng T.

12:17

Oh, if I'm not careful, I will hear kedo as keto!

Anonymous

Japanese /d/ has very little aspiration

Anonymous

I've noticed that Chinese speakers have a hard time with voicing in Japanese

Anonymous

I mean, with identifying it accurately

Anonymous

It's different from English, too, but most people seem to get it without too much trouble

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Maybe Chinese isn't very different from Thai. We have only a few pairs of voiced-voiceless vowels.

Looks like Thai has only two.

Anonymous

12:21

Well, Chinese has an aspiration distinction like Thai's /t/ and /tʰ/

Damkerng T.

nods

But Chinese has no /d/.

Anonymous

And the same for /k/ and /kʰ/, and for /p/ and /pʰ/

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Chinese /t/ is romanized as 'd' in Pinyin, while /tʰ/ is romanized 't'

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Although the difference is the aspiration and not voicing

Damkerng T.

12:23

I guess that Chinese and Thai people would be more sensitive to aspiration than voicing.

Anonymous

Since Chinese speakers all learn Pinyin at an early age, it makes me wonder if that causes confusion when learning languages with voicing contrasts

Damkerng T.

I guess so. I think we've seen some evidence on ELL, too.

Anonymous

I think the difference between the vowel sequences /ai/ and /ae/ in Japanese is very small

Anonymous

In careful pronunciation it's clear

Anonymous

But historically there's variation across that boundary

Anonymous

12:25

I think that native speakers sometimes distinguish the two by context

Anonymous

Rather than by sound alone

Damkerng T.

I also wonder if AmE speakers always use the sound alone to distinguish can from can't.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think sometimes it's actually up to context

Anonymous

I remember specifically hearing an example the other day which I replayed several times

Damkerng T.

Ahh... That's nice to know.

Anonymous

12:26

And I came to the conclusion that it was clearly can't because of context and no other reason :-)

Anonymous

Of course, it's difficult for me to come to conclusions like that.

Anonymous

In English, as you know, we reduce vowels all the time to a central vowel (schwa), almost any time they aren't stressed

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Japanese doesn't have any contrast between reduced and non-reduced vowels

Anonymous

However!

Anonymous

12:27

In rapid speech, all vowels get centralized.

Anonymous

Not completely, just a bit.

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's new!

Anonymous

So the distinction between them becomes smaller.

Damkerng T.

Ah, you're talking about that /i/ and /e/.

Anonymous

Actually, in this case, it was relatively clear pronunciation, I think

Anonymous

12:28

(Though it had music over it)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably. It was a bit too fast for me. Did it have music over?

Anonymous

I can't say with confidence that it was definitely an [e] sound

Damkerng T.

Oh, I ignored the music completely!

Anonymous

But I am fairly certain the word was moraemasu

Damkerng T.

I'm pretty sure that you're correct. I mentioned that to share my imperfect ears. :-)

Anonymous

12:30

Ahh

Anonymous

Sometimes I think there's some variation in the actual phonetics I don't really notice

Anonymous

Because my brain says "it sounds like such-and-such word"! :-)

Anonymous

I do try to pay attention to Japanese phonetics, though

Anonymous

I think that if it were /i/ it would probably sound a little more palatalized

Damkerng T.

I think the ki in kito is devoiced!

Anonymous

12:33

In Japanese, high vowels (meaning /i/ and /u/) are devoiced on unaccented morae between pairs of unvoiced consonants (such as /k/ and /t/)

Anonymous

There aren't too many exceptions to that rule, at least if we're talking about the Tokyo dialect

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

So in /kite/ you would expect the /i/ to be devoiced

Anonymous

Likewise, the word /kita/ 'north' would have a devoiced /i/

Anonymous

And the word /kuti/ 'mouth' would have a devoiced /u/

Damkerng T.

12:34

I tried Google Translate for a bit. I think the phrase means, "Let's come together, I have something to talk to you."

(Not really sure)

As far as I know, when reporting a past event, both should and would are possible for shall. — Damkerng T. 44 mins ago

I wouldn't want to say that his book is not very good.

Anonymous

突然ですけど　"I know it's a bit sudden, but"
お話したいことがあるので "I have something I'd like to talk to you about, so"
一緒に来てもらえます？ "would you please come with me?"

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the glosses!

Anonymous

She's saying it very politely, but she has armed thugs behind her!

Damkerng T.

Hah! Her voice doesn't sound that polite, imo. :D

Anonymous

Well, she uses です and ます, which are polite

Anonymous

12:38

When I said "very polite", that may have been overstating it …

Anonymous

けど isn't especially polite

Anonymous

And so on

Anonymous

Maybe I should divide it up between a politeness axis and a formality axis :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I think it's the case that is rather common in dorama. Sometimes a character will use different registers in their tone and their words!

Anonymous

Here's another example, this time with unreduced /desu/: quarplet.com/doudesu.mp3

Damkerng T.

12:47

I think it's not only unreduced, it's prominent!

Anonymous

Right!

Anonymous

It's lengthened.

Anonymous

According to Martin, the lengthening is necessary to carry the rising pitch contour, and of course it can't be devoiced if it's going to carry the pitch contour

Anonymous

He says that on average it gets lengthened just half of one mora, so not the same as a long vowel

Damkerng T.

That makes sense.

Anonymous

12:49

Although I think in many cases it does get lengthened that much

Anonymous

I mean, enough to be indistinguishable from a long vowel

Anonymous

That's just my personal impression as a non-native speaker

Anonymous

(We English speakers are not known for our great estimations of vowel length :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah! But English has short and long vowels!

Anonymous

But I've saved enough examples, I think, that I can open in audio editing programs

Anonymous

12:51

@DamkerngT. Yabbut it's largely allophonic

Anonymous

So we aren't paying attention to it all the time

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Anonymous

You can usually predict whether a vowel should be long or short based on other things.

Damkerng T.

Ah, this reminds me of that time that I heard Batman as bad man. :-)

It would be nice if I could find that exact utterance.

Anonymous

12:55

Do you remember where you heard it?

Damkerng T.

Ah, hello @StoneyB!

@snailboat It's in a TV animation. A rather recent one of Batman.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A-ha!

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Good morning (here)!

Anonymous

I haven't seen the recent Batman shows. But I've seen hmm, I've seen one Batman or another.

Anonymous

I don't know which one!

Anonymous

12:56

@StoneyB Good morning (also here!)

Damkerng T.

See if I can find its title.

StoneyB

@snailboat Good even-morninger-than-here, there!

CopperKettle

14:03

People write that rain has passed in many places. Rain in minus 13C.

I even found a page at Wikipedia. It turns out such things really happen. "Freezing rain"

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Oh, yeah. I think we used to get that on occasion back in Chicago

Anonymous

chicago.suntimes.com/news-chicago/7/71/256275/…

Anonymous

There are freezing rain advisories for Chicagoland right now!

Anonymous

Out here in California, we have rare sub-zero temperatures (below zero Celsius, that is), though they're just barely below

Anonymous

I think it got to -2°C yesterday, and it's -1°C this morning

Anonymous

14:12

It's probably the coldest it'll get all year right now.

Anonymous

phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/02/lexical-sets.html

Anonymous

@CopperKettle This chart is intimidating. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

CopperKettle

@snailboat Yes, there are numerous systems.. (0:

laters!

Damkerng T.

18:59

> There is a school of thought that says that everybody knows now that "STL" means the standard library, just as everybody now knows that "C++" is the ISO-standardised language.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5205491/whats-this-stl-vs-c-standard-library-fight-all-about/5205571#5205571

I think the the of the ISO-standardised language looks odd in there.

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