English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

00:09

Anyone think a spot announcer on NPR sounds a lot like a robot?

Anonymous

It's 16°C here.

Damkerng T.

00:26

dropbox.com/s/femshedyptcvjhw/npr-spot-announcer.mp3

learner

01:11

Greetings guys

@DamkerngT. That's a voice font!

Voice font

A voice font is a computer-generated voice that can be controlled by specifying parameters such as speed and pitch and made to pronounce text input. The concept is akin to that of a text font or a MIDI instrument in the sense that the same input may easily be represented in several different ways based on the design of each font. In spite of current shortcomings in the underlying technology for voice fonts, screen readers and other devices used to enhance accessibility of text to persons with disabilities, can benefit from having more than one default voice font. This happens in the same way that...

Damkerng T.

I'm still not sure if that's a machine or a human, but it does feel like a machine.

learner

It's a computer generated voice for sure no doubt about it

Anonymous

What voice? At the beginning of the recording?

learner

I've got a question for you guys

what's this phrase mean: "You need a place to unwire."

Anonymous

Oh, the voice through most of the recording

learner

01:15

The NPR file in the Dropbox link

Anonymous

I asked because it has two voices in it

learner

man & woman's voices

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I included the part before and after the spot to make the contrast more obvious.

@learner Unwire what? I think it'd be clear in the context. People nowadays can be said that they're wired (to the web) at all times.

learner

I'm sorry there is no context

It's from a link of about 500 idiomatic expressions

languageiiumsa.pbworks.com/w/page/51045170/…

Damkerng T.

"This is peanuts!"

"Take five!"

Anonymous

01:23

Sabrina Farhi does the "Support for NPR comes from…" announcements. She took over from Frank Tavares last year

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... So it's not a machine's voice!

learner

The clips sounds a computer generated voice! I'll check it again! but after my question

you maybe right about unwrite DK

it could mean looking for a place to hook up to the Internet

Damkerng T.

I think it's a variant of "unplug".

Anonymous

Some of these are strange.

Anonymous

What's "a broken sleep"? I don't know.

2

Anonymous

01:29

Maybe it's dialectal.

learner

it makes no sense to me with unplug

you need a place to get the service

not a place to unplug

Anonymous

google.co.jp/…

Damkerng T.

I think I've heard something like "You should unplug more often", suggesting "Get a life" but milder.

learner

you need a place to either plug your cable or hook up

that makes sense

Anonymous

I guess unwire probably means something like "unwind; relax"

Damkerng T.

01:31

@snailboat Ah, it's the one and only on the entire webscape!

Anonymous

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/wired

Anonymous

> [predicative] informal In a nervous, tense, or edgy state: not much sleep lately—I’m a little wired

Anonymous

But I can't recall ever having heard unwire before

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=35796071

Damkerng T.

nods -- It's new to me, too. I thought it was the new "unplug".

Anonymous

01:33

Could be, in the right context.

Anonymous

But out of context, my best guess is relating it to wired

Anonymous

Of course, I'm just guessing

Anonymous

It's not part of the English I speak

learner

I see: not much sleep lately—I’m a little wired

Anonymous

If you drink lots of caffeine, you'll end up wired.

Anonymous

01:34

In a heightened mental state, tense, nervous

Damkerng T.

nods

I'm surprised to see "Sorty" in the list, but not "Prolly".

learner

Any ideas about "I’m not reading you."

Damkerng T.

Probably a military scenario.

They sometimes say "read" instead of "hear".

Anonymous

Could be. Signal's too weak, you can't hear them over the walkie.

learner

do you read

Damkerng T.

01:39

(Sorry for the typo.)

learner

do you copy

Anonymous

But it could also mean "I'm not getting what you're saying" (in terms of understanding), I suppose

2

learner

Could it have a meaning of understanding

yeah

Damkerng T.

Could be.

learner

That's what I had in mind

Anonymous

01:40

Not very common that way, though.

Anonymous

In a science fiction story, it could mean reading your mind :-)

Damkerng T.

Another possibility I can think of is, I'm not trying to read you, as in "like a book".

Anonymous

This is called "contextualization"―in order to understand an utterance, we have to invent a context for it

Damkerng T.

"Are you trying to read me? I'm not one of your patients." "I'm not reading you."

Anonymous

Some people are better at that than other people

Anonymous

01:41

Native speakers are usually better than non-native speakers at it because they have a wider range of linguistic experience

Anonymous

But I think learning in context is generally more effective

Damkerng T.

Couldn't agree more.

Anonymous

Than learning phrases out of context and doing mental gymnastics to try to understand them

learner

yeas, I do so

but sometimes I come across interesting things

I don't memorize them but they get familiar the next time

"Little sleep makes learner look stoopid" sorry for being sloppy?

sloppy for mistakes not for people?

Damkerng T.

People sure can be sloppy.

Maybe our actions can be said that they are sloppy, too.

learner

01:49

Meticulous on the one hand, but unbelievably sloppy and careless on the other.

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/sloppy

Damkerng T.

A strange parallel.

learner

perhaps you are right

it seems for people according to the example

He's weird, he's strange, he's sloppy, he's a total nightmare for women.

Damkerng T.

'lovers of sloppy romance' is surely about the romance, not the lovers.

learner

Reality Bites (1994) - Quotes - IMDb

Damkerng T.

@learner Hehe. That makes me think, he probably spends a lot of time with women. :-)

learner

01:52

hehe

Damkerng T.

I think I haven't really watched this one, though I've seen several fractions of it.

learner

I could imagine

Anonymous

I haven't seen Reality Bites either

Anonymous

It sounds like the sort of movie that would have some dated slang in it

Anonymous

Like, say, bites :-)

Damkerng T.

01:54

Oh, I don't know the plot, but from the parts I've seen, I think it's about reality shows (or some sort of the origin of all reality shows).

Anonymous

Really? There was reality TV back in 1994? Hmm.

Damkerng T.

Maybe multiple senses of bites were intended.

Anonymous

It wasn't really a thing people talked about until the late 90s, I think.

Damkerng T.

I remember the scene Winona Ryder presented the idea of "reality show" and then got rejected. Later, someone in the meeting made such a show for the network. Kinda backstabbing.

(Don't trust me on this. I just patched fragments up, trying to make sense of the movie.)

Anonymous

I suppose I was probably out of touch back then, though. What with trying to ignore television and whatnot :-)

Damkerng T.

01:57

Ahh

Anonymous

My recollection is that Survivor was the show that got everyone talking about it.

Damkerng T.

Oh, Survivor was so exciting when it just came out!

goo.gl/xgVcP4

inspired by...

Actually, in AmE, I think it's not the simple present but the present subjunctive that is used (as in the OP's quote) — Google books has one hit for "would rather he goes" and quite a few for "would rather he go". This also seems to be a relatively new development grammatically — formerly, AmE would have been the same as BrE. See Ngram. — Peter Shor 13 hours ago

Anonymous

That's s very challenging graph to interpret properly

Anonymous

Make sure you look through some results for rather he went. It'll match a number of unrelated constructions

Damkerng T.

Oh!

trying to find a fix...

Anonymous

02:10

What made you remove woild?

Anonymous

Er, I can't fix that typo on my phone.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I just added "rather he went" to Peter Shor's version.

learner

broken "4. interrupted; disturbed; disconnected: broken sleep. " TFD

Damkerng T.

@learner nods -- I guessed "disturbed" or "not one straight" sleep, too.

Anonymous

Oh, Peter Shor's graph didn't have would, either

Anonymous

02:11

I assumed it would based on the comment

Anonymous

Well, rather he go is rather less likely to have that sort of false positive

Anonymous

@learner I'm unfamiliar with that usage

Damkerng T.

When I tried "would rather he went|go" and "I'd rather he went|go", I got no "go" results.

Anonymous

COCA has a few examples, though. It looks to be rather uncommon in AmE: corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=35796457

Damkerng T.

@snailboat What phrase would you use to express a similar idea?

learner

02:13

just felt like sharing it

Anonymous

GloWbE suggests it's somewhat more common in other varieties of English: corpus.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=35796464

learner

Interesting

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I dunno. "I didn't sleep well last night"? :-)

Anonymous

"I haven't been sleeping well lately"

Anonymous

Am I misinterpreting what broken sleep means?

Anonymous

02:15

"I got woken up in the middle of the night"

Damkerng T.

I like the last one!

learner

what about using - on/off

Anonymous

You'll have to elaborate

learner

ideas of on/off sleep?

Anonymous

I don't really know what that means.

Damkerng T.

02:16

Maybe "I was in and out of my sleep last night."

learner

I meant any ideas to express on and off sleep pattern

Anonymous

Is that what broken sleep is supposed to express?

learner

sleep and wake up many times

dunno

Anonymous

"Ugh, I'm pretty tired… I kept waking up last night. I never slept for more than half an hour at a time"

Anonymous

Something like that?

learner

02:18

kept waking up then

Damkerng T.

That sounds like it!

Anonymous

@learner Like, "sleeping on and off"?

learner

That's more like it - a better idiom to use DK

don't know if it is right

Damkerng T.

@learner Thanks! (I was away from my keyboard.)

@learner However, "That's more like it" implies that anything before that "wasn't it".

learner

couldn't find a better way under the spur on the moment SB

imm, thanks!

Is that implied all the time?

Anonymous

02:23

"That's more like it" seems okay here. It was better than, for example, "on/off sleep", at least in my opinion :-)

learner

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/That%27s+more+like+it

hehe

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think I should've just said "wasn't quite like it".

Anonymous

It does seem like broken sleep is somewhat dialectal

learner

I'm 50% less efficiency

Anonymous

I learned something today!

Anonymous

02:25

@learner efficient

learner

yeah, that proves it

Anonymous

Well, I learned a bunch of things today

Anonymous

But most of them weren't about English!

learner

I think I better sign off

Anonymous

If you like!

learner

02:26

later

Anonymous

I hope you weren't put off by our discussion

learner

good night

not at all, I'm just very sleepy

Anonymous

Oh! In that case, rest well!

learner

before leaving then. What should say?

re: rest well

Anonymous

I dunno. "Rest well" is a thing I say. It's not something most people say. :-)

learner

02:27

just thanks?

Anonymous

"Good night", how about?

learner

then good night

Anonymous

Have a good night! :-)

Damkerng T.

Good night and sleep tight!

Freddy

10:55

hello

Damkerng T.

15:24

0

A: What does she exactly say?

Here is what I was able to extract from the clip. 0:10 (There are two voices happen at the same time. One is possibly "Hi, Teddy", though it could as well be "Hi, today", then there is a man and a woman talking to each other in the background (barely audible) throughout the clip up until th...

►

I heard And that means the alarm was not set 'cause I didn't set it on iPad, but And that means the alarm is not set 'cause I didn't set it on my headset.

Anonymous

15:41

@DamkerngT. I hear is

Damkerng T.

Yay! I guess so. Listening on headset is quite easier than on iPad!

Anonymous

Nice answer, by the way!

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Even the Thai part was hard!

Anonymous

I bet.

Damkerng T.

Good thing that I can hear both languages!

Avinash Raj

16:16

> I just looking for a job in place location..

is this correct?

or like around this location.

CopperKettle

good evening @snailboat! and @DamkerngT.! I'm for a couple of seconds (0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle In that case, hi and bye!

Anonymous

@AvinashRaj There's no finite verb

Anonymous

"I'm just looking …"

Damkerng T.

Good evening!

CopperKettle

16:21

Trying to translate "purpose and scope" into Russian, and 've got a baker's dozen of options from fellow translators

nearly all different

Avinash Raj

Thanks Snail.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Is that a typo?

Avinash Raj

so , it's like

CopperKettle

@snailboat No, it's a heading of a section in a Memorandum of Understanding.

"Purpose and Scope"

Anonymous

Sorry, I should have been specific: 've looks like a typo :-)

Avinash Raj

16:23

I'm just looking for a job around Delhi location.

CopperKettle

Oh, it's just an abridgement. (0:

Anonymous

@AvinashRaj Remove the word location

CopperKettle

Found an interesting bit of trivia regarding (the?) English "double terms" in legalese

Legal doublet

A legal doublet is a standardized phrase used frequently in English legal language which consists of two or more words which are near synonyms. The origin of the doubling — and sometimes even tripling — often lies in the transition of legal language from Latin to French. Certain words were simply given in their Latin, French and/or English forms, often pairing an English word (or a more archaic Anglo-Saxon word) with a Latin or French synonym, so as to ensure understanding. Such phrases can often be pleonasms. == List of common legal doublets == == List of common legal triplets == cancel, annul...

Anonymous

Yeah!

Anonymous

We've got lots of those.

Anonymous

16:24

Everyone knows some of them. Say, null and void, for example.

CopperKettle

It turns out they combined a Latin/French word with a Saxon one, that's how they first appeared

They're a headache to translate into Russian.

For "purpose and scope", one English native speaker (and Russian translator) proposed a combination that is literally "goals and tasks"

Anonymous

I bet everyone would know at least: aid and abet, break and enter, cease and desist, fit and proper, law and order, null and void, over and above, terms and conditions, true and correct, will and testament

Anonymous

I don't know purpose and scope

CopperKettle

Yes, I knew these phrases, but purpose and scope seems to indicate two distinct senses to my ear

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Why translate it as a coordination instead of as a simple term?

Anonymous

16:27

If it is a legal doublet

Anonymous

If it's not, then, ...

CopperKettle

The majority of the translators who offered their options did not consider it a doublet

Anonymous

Ahh, I see

CopperKettle

Only one guy thouth it's a doublet and proposed to simply translate it as "purpose"

Damkerng T.

Oh, legal doublet!

CopperKettle

16:29

@DamkerngT. yes, sounds like a piece of garment

Damkerng T.

Reminds me of triplets.

CopperKettle

doublet - a man’s close-fitting jacket, with or without sleeves. Men in Europe wore doublets from the 1400s to the 1600s.

Anonymous

I wonder if it would have an entry in Black's Law Dictionary

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thanks for the tip, I'll try to dig it up someday.

Anonymous

In the U.S., you can find Black's in any law library

CopperKettle

16:31

@snailboat Well, a nice proposition (0:

@snailboat We have a saying in Russian: "Over the sea, a cow costs 5 kopeks, but it takes a rouble to ship it here"

laters (0:

Damkerng T.

In computing, we call them tuples. :-)

Anonymous

( ( in computing ) ( we ( call ( them tuples ) ) ) )

2

Damkerng T.

Hee!

Damkerng T.

16:44

Whydoeseverythinghavetobeoneword? — David Richerby 5 hours ago

:D

Anonymous

Off topic!

Anonymous

Just kidding, I'm not going to log in just to close vote a single word request :-)

Damkerng T.

Somehow, "Bad Robot!" popped up in my head. :D

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

It doesn't say "Bad Robot!" though :-(

Damkerng T.

16:49

The sound effect is more like Jurassic Park's!

Damkerng T.

17:11

test

Hmm... My connection is not very stable again.

Damkerng T.

18:45

Not to disagree (because I do agree with your answer), but I'm not sure if it's safe enough to call depending a preposition. I believe that CGEL (which I don't have) analyzes this kind of phrase as a PP (prepositional phrase, not very sure about the -al part, though), but maybe they avoid calling depending a preposition right out. — Damkerng T. 15 mins ago

Terminology is a pain.

Anonymous

A preposition phrase is a phrase with a preposition as its head

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I remember "tuples". (0: I have CJ Date's Introduction to Database Design at hand in Russian (0:

One book says legal doublets first appeared in Anglo-Saxon, where they were used for alliteration

books.google.ru/…

Those Anglo-Saxons loved to rhyme while punishing some bloody crime

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Hee

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

If it's not a preposition, then it's not a preposition phrase

Damkerng T.

18:49

@CopperKettle Oh, that book was how everything started!

@snailboat Hmm... Good point.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes, a nice book. I remember Date is quite gruffy there regarding the real-world implementations of database technology

Damkerng T.

Admittedly, it was too difficult a book for me at that time.

CopperKettle

But I only plodded through about a couple a hundred of pages

(found some typos and mistakes in the translation)

Damkerng T.

Please forgive my strange sentences. I'm out of my working room.

Be back in 10.

CopperKettle

Your sentences look fine to me.

Anonymous

18:52

Some participial forms have been reanalyzed as prepositions. Most have not…

Anonymous

CGEL lists according, allowing, barring, concerning, counting, excepting, excluding, failing, following, including, owing, pertaining, regarding, respecting, saving, touching, wanting, given, gone, and granted. (p.611)

Anonymous

They make various notes about specific items in the list

CopperKettle

Yep, like "failing that.."

Anonymous

One key is that there is no subject for the "verb" in the main clause

Anonymous

It doesn't predicate on anything

Anonymous

18:57

Prepositional phrase is the older term. Many modern linguists use preposition phrase instead these days, though not everyone does

Anonymous

It fits the pattern of noun phrase, verb phrase, etc.

Anonymous

If you want to figure out if depending is a preposition, you can start by looking at whether it predicates on anything

Anonymous

Of course, you have to figure this out in a given sentence―most participial forms that have been reanalyzed as prepositions can still be used as participial forms! :-)

CopperKettle

I wonder what is "predicates on anything".. helps form a predicate?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Could you give me a simple example?

Anonymous

19:02

@DamkerngT. Let's use CopperKettle's example of failing.

Anonymous

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/failing_15

Anonymous

> You should get them to pay for the damage, or failing that, claim on the insurance.

Anonymous

What is the subject of failing?

CopperKettle

"If that fails": that seems to be the subject

Damkerng T.

nods

So you mean there is no real subject for these in-participial-form prepositions, I think?

Anonymous

19:04

There is no subject.

CopperKettle

oh

Anonymous

Also, in this case, the meaning and complementation differ from the verb

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So although it's alike in form, we have a fairly strong motivation to say that this is a separate word which happens to be a homophone

Damkerng T.

Seeing according, concerning, including, etc. on the list, I think they'd say this depending is a preposition, too.

Anonymous

19:06

They don't specifically, but …

Anonymous

Their list isn't intended to be complete.

Anonymous

It's counterintuitive, isn't it?

CopperKettle

"You should get them to pay for the damage. In case you're failing to do that, claim on the insurance".

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably. It definitely conflicts with the traditional grammar I've learned.

@CopperKettle I think this one is a normal verb.

Anonymous

Well, it shouldn't be that controversial―almost all English dictionaries list prepositions derived from participial forms

CopperKettle

19:10

Wiktionary says a preposition connects a noun to some other word

@DamkerngT. nods

Anonymous

@CopperKettle That's not a very good definition.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Okay, I'll need to read up on this.

Anonymous

It's not a terrible definition, but it needs work

Anonymous

I wouldn't try to learn grammar from Wiktionary, though

Anonymous

@CopperKettle That's not a valid use of fail

Anonymous

19:14

I mean, it's grammatical.

Anonymous

But people don't use the word fail that way

CopperKettle

Do the use it in the Simple Present: "in case you fail to do that"?

or "in case that fails"

Damkerng T.

Probably "in case that fails".

CopperKettle

oh, thanks

Damkerng T.

Anyone noticed that they like all the sci-fi scenes bathing in blue?

Anonymous

19:17

One reason words can be reanalyzed in this way is because there's overlap between the two uses grammatically

Anonymous

So there are cases where things are potentially ambiguous

Anonymous

Just like with participial adjectives

Damkerng T.

There is part in participial!

Anonymous

Sometimes you can't distinguish unambiguously between two parts of speech.

Damkerng T.

nods

I wrote "Happy ELLing!" today. I'm not sure how I should analyze the parts of speech of the sentence. :-)

Maybe via ellipsis.

CopperKettle

19:20

"ELLing" is a gerund (0:

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CopperKettle

The whole sentence is... I don't remember.. Snailboat once told me how it's called

Anonymous

A minor sentence?

CopperKettle

Something like that. You then mentioned a page in Quirk et al. even.

Anonymous

That sounds like something I might have done.

CopperKettle

19:21

It was no use, I forgot the term and the page number (0:

Anonymous

There are lots of kinds of minor sentences. You can come up with various ways to analyze them. One is by ellipsis.

Anonymous

Ellipsis probably works for most of them.

Anonymous

But it's probably simpler to just analyze it as it is: a special pattern

Anonymous

> Happy hunting!

CopperKettle

"Look, there's a rather happy ELLing! I nearly caught one yesterday"

Damkerng T.

19:22

:D

Anonymous

@CopperKettle ELLing is probably not a count noun :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

@snailboat I know (0:

Damkerng T.

ELLing says: "Catch me if you can!"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Happy should be a hint.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

19:25

What sorts of words does happy usually premodify?

CopperKettle

Then the ELLing stops and ask himself "Or should I use could there?"

Anonymous

Poor ELLing.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Well, ELLings are often tripped by modals

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Must be a noun; most often an activity.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Of course, you know can is the right word.

Damkerng T.

19:27

(Or maybe an occasion.)

CopperKettle

@snailboat It's interesting. "Stop, you could fall!" but "Catch me if you can!"

But I feel some difference.

Anonymous

What difference might that be?

CopperKettle

Can for ability, could for possibility.

Like, they differ in semantical utility.

Anonymous

Sure. The meaning is different.

Anonymous

I just noticed you can play with the snow on the Winter Bash page with your mouse cursor.

Damkerng T.

19:36

@snailboat Oh! Neat!

CopperKettle

nice!

Can and could 's a pair known for versatility

Can can show virility, could could mark civility.

Damkerng T.

Robo-twist: Stop! Or else you can fall on their command. And you will! These little green men possess telekinesis ability!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT.: "fall under their command"

Anonymous

Virility, eh?

CopperKettle

@snailboat "I can do this, I can do that"

vs. "could I do this, could I do that?"

Damkerng T.

19:39

@CopperKettle Interesting. I think I meant on not under.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh. Did you mean "they will give a command and you will fall (to the ground)"?

Damkerng T.

Yup!

CopperKettle

Oh, I just imagined that they would "telekinetically" subjugate the guy.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I imagined a green version of Minions. :-)

Anonymous

Minions?

CopperKettle

19:42

Oh, I remember that nice cartoon. (0:

Anonymous

I'm not familiar

CopperKettle

"The Evil Me" or something

Anonymous

Minions (film)

Minions is an upcoming American 3D computer-animated comedy film and a spin-off/prequel to Despicable Me (2010) and Despicable Me 2 (2013). It is being produced by Illumination Entertainment for Universal Pictures. Written by Brian Lynch, it will be directed by Pierre Coffin and Kyle Balda, and produced by Chris Meledandri and Janet Healy. Sandra Bullock will voice Scarlet Overkill, the villain of the film, and Jon Hamm will voice her husband, inventor Herb Overkill. The film is scheduled to be released on July 10, 2015. The film was first teased in the ending credits of Despicable Me 2, where...

Anonymous

These guys?

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

Minions: small yellow creatures appear in many Hollywood animation films; famous for their "Banana" song.

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CopperKettle

19:52

nice!

Good night, Snailboat, Damkerng!

Damkerng T.

Good night!

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