English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

00:17

> Why would anyone want to kill Jerry?

Is it okay to ask that, let's say, when Jerry is already dead?

Damkerng T.

01:32

1

Q: How do you read these mathematical expressions in English

(both above are from Wikipedia.org)

reading

Probably, folks on our Math stack will do this better than us. :-)

skullpatrol

@DamkerngT. that's kind of what I was talking about earlier with phonology

Damkerng T.

Ahh

skullpatrol

not much has been written about it

and it is not an easy question that has just one answer

Damkerng T.

It seems like everyone must learn to read math expressions via imitation.

skullpatrol

true

this is essentially the difference between written language and spoken language, between the two you have "how do you read this expression"?

Damkerng T.

01:49

I wasn't sure about my own sentence, "Please note that this is a casual reading." I finally decided to use a reading because I think of it as an act. I hope this is different from most -ing words (which are usually uncountable).

@skullpatrol nods

It's a little strange that we learn to read math expressions "before" we learn to read them aloud.

Which is the exact opposite of natural (or human) languages.

skullpatrol

@DamkerngT. agrees

and then there is the matter of pronunciation and that's where phonology comes in

Damkerng T.

When working with complex equations I think I usually don't read the equations at all. But it might go like, "move this to this, cross this out, add z to this, ..." in my head.

@skullpatrol I think we all could use a good mini-book on "how to read math expressions". :D

skullpatrol

3 mins ago, by skullpatrol

@DamkerngT. agrees

Damkerng T.

LOL

skullpatrol

:)

the learning process is intimately related to reading

Damkerng T.

02:04

nods

skullpatrol

and, as you said, it is intimately related to listening, with natural language

skullpatrol

03:15

as a general rule of thumb people use the least number of words possible when reading math

Damkerng T.

Absolutely agree.

skullpatrol

who wants to remember more words than necessary?

Damkerng T.

People who like verbosity?

:P

skullpatrol

like physicists :P

CopperKettle

06:44

"As the brackefed implications indicate, the hypothetical meaning is more
absolute in the past, and amounts to an implied rejection of the condition;
whereas with present and future reference the meaning may be merely one
of negative expectation or assumption, the positive not being ruled out
completely."

I wonder what do the call the construction one of, and why there's no the before one.

The top o' the morning to you, Snailboat!

CopperKettle

09:13

1

Q: He travels (the) fastest who travels alone

Some people write, "He travels fastest who travels alone." Other people write, "He travels the fastest who travels alone." Which one do you think is correct? The definite article 'the' is supposed to be necessary in this sentence or not? Sorry for this silly question and thank you for...

phrase definite-article

Can travel serve as a copular verb in the sentence without the and as a lexical verb in the sentence with the, I wonder.

Anonymous

10:22

@CopperKettle I don't think it's a copular verb

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you! So it must be an adverb then..

BBL

user116848

Howdy!

Anonymous

10:41

@CopperKettle I don't understand your conclusion

Anonymous

Do you mean fastest and alone?

CopperKettle

fastest

Howdy, @Farooq!

or maybe it's some kind of exception, being a proverb

user116848

@CopperKettle Hi!

CopperKettle

I just recalled my other answer:

5

A: from chilliest era of the Cold War -- where did the article go?

Last week the U.S. House voted overwhelmingly in favor of an anti-Russia resolution so full of war propaganda that it rivals the rhetoric from chilliest era of the Cold War. The noun era is a singular count noun, moreover, it's modified by the phrase of the Cold War and has a superlative ad...

... and it got me thinking that "travels fastest" is a non-attributive construction of some sort

JR says in a comment that it's explained by the sentence being a proverb, akin to "Slow and steady wins the race"

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle A poetic license is needed, maybe. I think a normal construction would be something like "He who travels alone travels fastest." --- float --> "He travels fastest who travels alone."

Anonymous

10:52

He [who verbs adverbest] verbs secondary-predicate　→　He verbs secondary-predicate [who verbs adverbest]

Damkerng T.

Hello, everyone!

skullpatrol

Hi pal!

user116848

Hi DT

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods -- I think He travels alone who travels fastest makes more sense.

(Haven't read the question yet.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, they make an equal amount of sense to me

Anonymous

10:55

I think they're the same thing, sans relative postposing

Damkerng T.

To me, one makes a little more sense than the other, but probably not that much.

Anonymous

That is to say, I can't see any difference in meaning

Anonymous

The is often freely omissible from superlatives, depending

Damkerng T.

Cause and consequence, perhaps.

nods

Anonymous

It's definitely a literary construction

Anonymous

11:00

@CopperKettle The non-referential use of he marks it as being either a proverb or proverb-like

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle "Where did the article go?" "Where the wild things are." :-)

Anonymous

Because the non-referential use of he is mostly literary or archaic now

Anonymous

In normal spoken language people don't use the word that way

Anonymous

But they do model new phrases on the sorts of phrases they've heard that use he that way

Anonymous

> He who laughs last laughs longest.

Damkerng T.

11:01

Hehe! I sure have heard that one!

Anonymous

The way I conceptualize it, the basic word order there is "He [who verbs whatever] verbs whatever"

Anonymous

And "He verbs whatever [who verbs whatever]" is the non-basic order

skullpatrol

I thought it was "He who laughs last laughs ~~longest~~ best.

Anonymous

The whatever doesn't seem to be limited to a single syntactic role

Damkerng T.

nods

@skullpatrol I remember longest.

(Or maybe loudest.)

Anonymous

11:04

@skullpatrol Sure, can be.

skullpatrol

ok, same thing

Anonymous

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

(I had to fix the URL because the * wasn't escaped, so if you clicked right after I posted the URL, try again :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, best is the most common! (or commonest!)

skullpatrol

:) im such a commoner

Damkerng T.

11:09

:D

ell.stackexchange.com/a/41580/3281

0

A: How to Improve Intonation?

Few days ago after long search around internet I found really great and fun way of studying English. I enjoy the fact that without learning grammar you somehow start understand what and how to use it. I recommend this e-learning course to everyone who wants to straight up their conversational ski...

Sometimes it comes back.

Last time the signature was defenately. This time it's Heir. (Speech pattern aside.)

But it's amazing if that could happen in just a few days.

Anonymous

11:27

We can delete it

Anonymous

It takes three delete votes

Anonymous

Of course, you can flag it and let a moderator do it if you prefer

Anonymous

Or do both :-)

Damkerng T.

I flagged it.

Oh, we can delete it, too. I'd better delete it, too.

Though my opinion still stands (that the topic is complicated enough to write a book on that; I wish I had more time to write a longer explanation, which is now unnecessary, why I think a short, simple discussion is not going to be the real answer for learners; I'm glad that Ben Kovitz's discussed that, nicely), I decide to vote to reopen this question, seeing that it's likely that we're going to have more good discussions out of this thread. — Damkerng T. 2 mins ago

If anyone wants to vote to reopen...

Anonymous

My vote was Too Broad

Anonymous

11:36

Not Unclear

Anonymous

Nor Off-Topic

Anonymous

Reopening it is okay but I bet it won't get a proper answer

Anonymous

I'll add my reopen vote

Anonymous

Okay, it's open

Damkerng T.

Yay! -- Now let's hope for more good answers. :D

Damkerng T.

11:59

> Brit. I’ve got two sisters.
US I have two sisters.
Brit. I’ve got to go now.
US I have to go now.
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/grammar-reference/british-english-and-american-english

Hmm...

Anonymous

But AmE speakers often use have got

Damkerng T.

That's exactly what I wonder!

("I have to go now" makes me think of BrE rather than AmE.)

Anonymous

Later I'll check Biber et al and see what they have to say about frequency

Anonymous

Hmm, really?

Damkerng T.

Umm... Yes. To me, I mean.

Anonymous

12:02

I don't know what to think

Damkerng T.

(If I had to guess the accent out of just one sentence.)

I guess we can find both alternatives being used on both sides of the pond.

Anonymous

12:17

There's probably a difference of some sort that I'm just not really familiar with

Anonymous

But at the moment I'm too tired to go over to my desk and look it up :-)

Damkerng T.

I see. :-) I'm a bit too busy to check out some corpora at the moment, too.

(Or even related questions on ELL and ELU. I guess there might be some of them.)

Hello @Bunch!

Damkerng T.

12:33

1

A: What is the meaning of "I am glossing over a significant amount of spherical myalgia"?

It's just my humorous way of describing ball ache. Spherical=ball shaped, myalgia=medical term for pain/ache.

Hey, look who wrote an answer!

Damkerng T.

13:11

Simple-yet-difficult-to-translate of the day: Go get him!

(Superman's mom told her dog when she saw Kent walking back home at about a couple hundred paces away in Man of Steel.)

Damkerng T.

13:55

> http://ell.stackexchange.com/users/3281/damkerng-t
profile views: 666

Hee

CopperKettle

14:09

I wonder which is more proper "Which/what aircraft is this?"

1

Q: Which aircraft ist this?

Yesterday, I saw an aircraft in the sky with a strange shape. Searching for "aircraft silhouette" on the web, I found this picture within seconds on a vector graphics site. It describes perfectly what I saw, so there is nothing else I can say about the aircraft. But I did not find any informa...

aircraft-identification

My guess it's what

@DamkerngT. I found a movie named this way. (0:

Damkerng T.

Agree. I would use what, too.

@CopperKettle It's kinda unique, that movie. :D

CopperKettle

I've read up around and "what" seems to be more proper

40

Q: "Which" vs. "what" — what's the difference and when should you use one or the other?

Most of the time one or the other feels better, but every so often, "which" vs. "what" trips me up. So, what's the exact difference and when should you use one or the other?

differences questions determiners which-what

@DamkerngT. A good movie?

I will try it out. I added it to "to check out" list

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle It may look like a movie for children, but maybe it's not. :-)

Or maybe I just think too much!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Fine with me, I like some movies for children

Like Russian-made "Treasure Island" (0:

Damkerng T.

Ah, I guess there are several movies with the title "Treasure Island".

Must be this one, I guess: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Island_%281988_film%29

CopperKettle

14:24

Yes, it's just something great, with hilarious musical numbers here and there

Damkerng T.

Oh, its rating on IMDb is 8.4!

CopperKettle

It's a very good work

Damkerng T.

I hope they will have this one on my cable some day. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle More proper? Um.

Anonymous

14:27

Well, they're both grammatical...

Anonymous

That's a pretty tough question.

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you! I thought that "which" is preferable when there are several known alternatives (known to the asker)

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Oh, that sounds likely.

Damkerng T.

I think what's more important is whether the listener knows the choices.

Anonymous

Yeah, a shared context kinda thing.

Damkerng T.

14:29

(Maybe most people over there know the choices anyway. :-)

Anonymous

When you have a really big set of choices, like all the planes ever made,

Anonymous

It feels kind of indeterminate or unbounded, doesn't it?

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Not really like picking from a fixed list

Anonymous

Ahh, talking about language is fun.

Anonymous

14:32

I always feel so clueless about everything, though :-) There's too much I don't know

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Affirmative. :P

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, ye be talkin' like a robot, I see.

Damkerng T.

@Tetsujin "Affirmative." (Note my avatar. :-) — Damkerng T. 38 mins ago

Anonymous

Hee.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You're talking like a robot to an iron man!

Damkerng T.

14:34

LOL

CopperKettle

(0:

Cinderella (1947 film)

Cinderella (Russian: Зо́лушка) is a 1947 Soviet musical film by Lenfilm studios. It is a classical story about Cinderella, her evil Stepmother, and a Prince. == Cast == Cinderella - Yanina Zheymo Prince - Aleksei Konsovsky King - Erast Garin Stepmother - Faina Ranevskaya Anna, 1st daughter - Yelena Yunger Marijana, 2nd daughter - Tatyana Sezenyovskaya Forester - Vasili Merkuriev Pas de Trois - Aleksandr Rumnyov Fairy - Varvara Myasnikova Page - Igor Klemenkov Corporal - Sergei Filippov == Crew == Evgeny Shvarts, screenwriter Mikhail Shapiro Nadezhda Kosheverova Nikolay Akimov, artistic designer...

Damkerng T.

Oh, by the way, I think Elven-tongue is a little like Japanese. I'm watching The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug, and in one scene, one elf told another elf, "igo" with the subtitle "Go away". :D

CopperKettle

Here's another good children's movie, but I got no idea if it is translated

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Ah, it's a classic!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. And stuffed with very smart jokes!

Damkerng T.

14:37

Hah!

CopperKettle

I was just scrolling through youtube's collection of Russian stuff

►

With English subtitles (0:

Damkerng T.

The style is quite charming!

CopperKettle

It's one of the most famous cartoons over here (0:

WIth some phrases from it now stock phrases in Russian

Like "I'm gonna sing" (spoken with Ukrainian accent)

Damkerng T.

Oh, poor dog! (He's in the wood now.)

CopperKettle

I'll abstain from spoilers (0:

Freddy

14:46

New YouTube app is Better, isn't it?

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Oh, he sang!

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

@Freddy I still watch the clips on my computer.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Happy ending (0:

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Kinda like "This is how life is."

CopperKettle

14:53

Yes (0:

I've found the dystopian Sci Fi movie KinDzaDza with English subtitles

►

CopperKettle

15:16

0

A: passed both -- meaning?

I don't understand how it's possible that we have the word by and the verb passed is in the passive voice, but there's no axillary verb like is around. The verb passed it used in the active voice in your excerpt. A draft piece of legislation can indeed be passed by a legislative body. But ...

"The draft Act passed by unanimous consent" (no direct object)

could it be a typo, I wonder

"The draft Act passed the Senate" seems okay

Damkerng T.

Passing the laws can be used in both active and passive voices, and transitively and intransitively, afaik.

"The Act passed by unanimous consent" is quite like "We traveled by bus."

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Thank you! I wasn't sure.

►

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle No problem!

Ah, some more animations!

CopperKettle

I forgot where I got to know this one. A nice cartoon explaining how a bill turns into a law. (0:

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Also check out, macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/pass#pass_40, senses 7 and 7a.

CopperKettle

15:26

okay, thanks!

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Oh, School House Rock! I remember their Grammar Rock!

►

CopperKettle

Nice!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Tolkien's Quenya language is somewhat inspired by Finnish, which in turn bears some resemblance to Japanese

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh

Anonymous

@CopperKettle "The draft act passed."

CopperKettle

15:32

Yes, I've found the entry in McMillans

Indeed, a non transitive

Anonymous

Macmillan

Anonymous

You can't tell from the usual page header, but it's a lowercase 'm' :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

the words "where it passed by unanimous consent " make one grope in search of the missing was

I mean, the consent was given by someone, so we have a draft act acting in the active voice but helped along "by unanimous consent", which is quite non-active

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

Well, sometimes passive semantics are combined with active syntax.

Anonymous

15:41

And people sometimes call that the 'middle voice', although

user62015

Hi!

CopperKettle

"middle voice" - a nice term

Anonymous

English is usually said to have only an active and a passive voice

CopperKettle

Hi, @user62015!

Anonymous

In terms of syntax

Anonymous

15:42

(Other languages have an actual middle voice)

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

So instead of calling it a middle voice, you can call it a middle construction

Anonymous

Which makes the terminologists happy :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Let's see.

Anonymous

15:44

It looks like you sorted it all out without me . . . but I'm still interested :-)

CopperKettle

In Russian, there's only Reflexive Voice beyond the usual brace of voices, but no Middle

Damkerng T.

Wow, Grammar Rock's Nouns at 2:14 is still difficult for me to make everything out.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Seems to recite several group or song names, like The Beatles, The Monkeys

user62015

I am going to paste a sentence from an online website: "Chapman still dreams of walking on the beach in Hawaii where he proposed to his wife". I had read somewhere that we cannot use "to" after the word "proposed" if someone is proposing someone for marriage. But if someone is proposing someone for any other purpose then we can use "to" after the word "proposed" let's say that I am proposing her for the manager post. Does it make sense?

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle nods -- I couldn't hear The Beatles in that line.

CopperKettle

15:48

@DamkerngT. Maybe I misheard!

Anonymous

CGEL (p.307-8) characterizes a 'middle' intransitive as having passive-like semantics (the causer is not the subject, but someone else), but with the inability to insert a by-phrase containing the causer. So, The bill passed but not *The bill passed by the senate. On the other hand, The bill passed by unanimous consent is okay because the by-phrase here doesn't indicate a causer

2

Damkerng T.

@user62015 I think it's the opposite.

user62015

Okay.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Oh, I think you're right.

Anonymous

@user62015 There's no consensus on whether this construction should be spelled with a d or not

Anonymous

15:50

But did you used to is quite common

Anonymous

It is not in error

Anonymous

Used to is special

user62015

Yes. You are talking about last night.

Anonymous

That's right

user62015

But I have checked in many dictionaries and they suggested that we should use "did not use to"

CopperKettle

15:51

@user62015 I guess "propose to" is spot-on for marriage and just "propose someone for.." is spot on for job allocation.

Anonymous

@user62015 Where, for example, did you find such a recommendation?

Anonymous

I hate to disagree with "many dictionaries" sight unseen

Anonymous

Nonetheless, did you used to is significantly more common than did you use to (in this meaning)

user62015

@CopperKettle Thanks, so I was opposite, right?

CopperKettle

@user62015 yes (0:

user62015

15:53

@snailboat I always prefer "did not use to"

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=35621282

Damkerng T.

dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/used-to

user62015

@snailboat So both are fine or should I be stuck with "did not used to"?

Anonymous

As you can see, both used to and use to are possible spellings

Damkerng T.

I think they also say that both are common. However, they seem to recommend using didn't use to.

Anonymous

15:55

Although didn't used to is more common than didn't use to

user62015

@snailboat macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/used-to

I have just sent you the link.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They just recommend not using it on tests in case someone thinks it's wrong

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

That doesn't apply to everyday life

Damkerng T.

Oh, hey, I didn't know that we have usen't to and usedn't to!

Anonymous

15:56

There's no consensus that didn't use to is a better spelling.

Anonymous

There's no consensus on how to spell it one way or the other.

Anonymous

Didn't used to is more common in both COCA and BNC (representing American and British English respectively), but it's significantly more common in COCA

user116848

I found this:

user116848

1

Q: Didn't you USED TO or Didn't you USE TO?

I was somehow confused encountering this sentence: Didn't you USED TO work with Annie at Macy's?. Should we use USE TO here since we are using Did which needs the base form of the verb.

meaning grammar structure

Damkerng T.

didn't used to 126, didn't use to 32. I think it's clear which one is more common.

@Farooq Oh, no! Not a question with all negative-votes answers.

Anonymous

15:58

@Farooq Unfortunately, there are no good answers there. The question it's a duplicate of has decent answers.

user116848

31

Q: What's the negation of "I used to be"? Surely not "I didn't used to be"?

What is the negative form of "I used to be"? I often hear "I didn't used to be" but that sounds awfully wrong in my ears.

grammar past-tense negation

Anonymous

In particular, the never used to workaround is good.

Anonymous

@Farooq Nonetheless, it's English.

user116848

@snailboat Yeah, no good answer.

user62015

@snailboat I am lost!

Please let me know which one is the most suitable?

Anonymous

15:59

@user62015 The reason I brought this up again is that I didn't want you to think the author made a mistake in the book you were reading.

Damkerng T.

I think I'm gonna steal the idea of using "never used to". :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, that's what you should always do in semi-formal situations.

user62015

@snailboat I agree!

Anonymous

It works informally too, if you like.

user62015

So both are fine?

user116848

16:01

So if you Google you will find that "didn't use to" is more common. Still "didn't used to" is not wrong. I think that could be my conclusion.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Safe for all occasions!

Anonymous

Well, Google won't actually answer the question of which is more common

Anonymous

But yes

Anonymous

I'm not sure if it'll help any to repeat myself, but I'll try again: there's no consensus about how to spell didn't used to

Anonymous

(It doesn't come up in speech because the two are pronounced identically)

Damkerng T.

16:02

Here is what I'm thinking. didn't use to is theoretically correct, didn't used to is practically correct, and never used to is wise. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Theory's wrong

Damkerng T.

Oh! But they recommend this in exams. (Did I miss something?)

user62015

@snailboat @DamkerngT. I am asking as it comes in my exams!!!

Anonymous

Well, just because people recommend something for an exam doesn't mean it's theoretically correct

Damkerng T.

@user62015 Avoid using both!

user62015

16:04

So, I will prefer it grammatically.

Anonymous

It's spelling, not grammar

user62015

Okay.

Anonymous

It's the same word either way, /justə/

Anonymous

So grammar is not a factor

Anonymous

@user62015 Do what that answerer recommends and say never used to

Damkerng T.

16:05

Ahh... /justə/ is probably more important. Some exams are oral.

user116848

We normally use first form of verb after "did" that's why "didn't use to" seems more correct to many.

Anonymous

@Farooq justə is not a normal verb

Anonymous

In fact, it's quite special

user62015

Okay.

user116848

@snailboat I mean use is a first form of verb. 2nd and 3rd are did and done.

Anonymous

16:07

@Farooq That doesn't apply here.

Anonymous

This isn't the same verb.

user116848

okay

Anonymous

Trying to apply that logic would lead to your conclusion, of course

user116848

Yeah, you are right. I see them both as well.

Anonymous

The words can be easily distinguished in speech, but not in writing

Anonymous

16:09

That is why I gave the pronunciation in IPA above

user62015

Thanks. I am done with it. I appreciate your help guys.

Anonymous

16:20

Otherwise, you might be fooled into thinking used to and used to are the same thing (as they look identical in spelling, despite the meaning, pronunciation, and grammar all being different)

Anonymous

17:18

@DamkerngT. It turns out he doesn't wear glasses in the comics, even early on! Just like you said!

Anonymous

You remembered right! :-)

Anonymous

I guess the adaptation isn't 100% the same as the original

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah! I was surprised to see his eyeglasses.

A version of the title of the manga and anime is also curious. (I think they use this for the anime.) It's ปรสิตเดรัจฉาน. ปรสิต (reads "pore-raasit") ~ parasite, เดรัจฉาน (reads "day-rat-chan") ~ beast. However, it's not a general kind of beast; it's a beast from hell.

user62015

18:58

Please let me know are all the ways right to make the sentences using the present continuous tense?

He is calling me(Positive)/ He is not calling me(negative)/ Is he calling me? (interrogation)/ Is not he calling me?/ Is he not calling me?

Damkerng T.

All are okay, except Is not he calling me?

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