English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

13:00

I think it sounds stiff.

CopperKettle

oh, okay

Wikipedia says: "The future perfect construction with will (like other constructions with that auxiliary) is sometimes used to refer to a confidently assumed present situation rather than a future situation, as in "He will have woken up by now.""

Anonymous

@CopperKettle It's not that it won't work, but that you could probably do better

CopperKettle

@snailboat nods

Anonymous

@CopperKettle As they note, that's not the property of a named construction, but a property of the modal auxiliary will

CopperKettle

oh

like "that will be the postman" (going to the door to open)

Anonymous

13:06

(I don't see any reason to call it the future perfect when it doesn't refer to the future, but you can call it that if you like)

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes, like that

Anonymous

ColleenV very reasonably goes for the present perfect

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think present perfect is okay, too. Maybe even better than the simple past, if the consequence is clear.

Anonymous

That's difficult for me to judge

Anonymous

But that sounds reasonable

Anonymous

13:13

> Furthermore, the combination "Make them be punished" sounds awkward, despite being formally grammatical.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle You added it! :-)

Anonymous

I upvoted

CopperKettle

@snailboat - thanks! (0:

Damkerng T.

13:31

OK i agree with you. But in multiple choice question in exam if we have to choose one answer then what would we choose, them or those? — starun008 51 mins ago

Interesting.

> "You might post these for me", Mary said.

> Mary asked me to post them for her.

> ?Mary asked me to post those for her.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The problem is that the frame of reference (or "deictic center") may be different when the speech is reported.

Anonymous

There's nothing wrong with those assuming it can, in context, refer to the right thing.

Anonymous

It's hard to say without any context.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

1

A: What is the meaning of "I am glossing over a significant amount of spherical myalgia"?

I'm a doctor so I can think of this usage. And trust me, we as students used to use a lot of such phrases just to have fun using medical jargon! This included, that is beyond your gray matter- beyond your thinking, paralyzed orbicularis oris -someone who never smiles! and a lot more. Ah, I just h...

Damkerng T.

13:42

Oh, that!

Anonymous

Maulik linked to the Wikipedia page for cerebral hemisphere but used the link text spheres

Anonymous

> We doctors use spheres to refer to the human brain.

Anonymous

I don't think Maulik speaks for English-speaking doctors when he says that.

Anonymous

Hemisphere is a rather different word than sphere.

Anonymous

Certainly I've read and heard hemisphere countless times in the context of the brain, but never once sphere

Damkerng T.

13:44

I don't know why, but the more somebody tries to claim something, the less creditability they will get from me.

Anonymous

I'm surprised by how many upvotes I see on Maulik's answers lately. I wonder if people see the 20k reputation and are more inclined to upvote than they would be if he had a low reputation

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

But most of his answers are wrong, so why do I see upvotes on them so often?

Damkerng T.

I wish we would forbid the OP to vote, even.

@snailboat By my standard, he is not doing very well. But most users, especially new users wouldn't notice this.

Anonymous

A user can be suspended for consistently low quality contributions, but that doesn't seem likely to happen here

Damkerng T.

13:47

(I'm talking about ELLing only, not his practice or other stuff.)

Anonymous

Sure.

Anonymous

I'm only looking at the quality of his answers.

Anonymous

His questions are another story.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I can't downvote every time I see a wrong answer

Damkerng T.

13:49

nods

I think it's not surprising that people are fooled by randomness and numbers.

Also, downvoting might attract more upvotes of mercy.

So, every downvote is actually +8, not -2.

Anonymous

That certainly happens.

Anonymous

But that post I just downvoted about spherical myalgia was at +2

Anonymous

With no downvotes

Anonymous

The question as written is unanswerable, in any case

Anonymous

(So I voted to close and left a comment)

Damkerng T.

13:52

Perhaps, non-native doctors use this kind of phrase?

Anonymous

The OP's quote didn't sound non-native

Anonymous

We shouldn't speculate that the OP's quote contains a non-native error

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. But I meant what is claimed in the answer.

Anonymous

Yes, I was taking that conclusion, along with the maxim of relevance and the OP's question, which led me to the assumption that the OP's quote contained the same error

Anonymous

It is possible, certainly,

Damkerng T.

13:58

Obviously, some folks swing their bats more often than other. :D

^Hmm... I made a typo again, nvm.

Thanks!

Anonymous

Oh, others?

Anonymous

I was tempted to change would in your answer to will, by the way

Damkerng T.

nods :-)

Anonymous

But then I decided to leave it alone :-)

Anonymous

Poor answer. I'm always editing stuff without asking.

Damkerng T.

14:03

I edited it!

Anonymous

Ah, do you like will better too, then?

Damkerng T.

My September seems to prefer would. My December definitely prefers will. :-)

Anonymous

I guess it just seems more consistent with the rest of the paragraph.

Anonymous

Hmm, my December seems to agree with yours!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

14:05

I don't know if I passed the JLPT.

Anonymous

But if I didn't, I feel pretty certain I can get it next year.

Anonymous

I just need to spend some time practicing that sort of listening question.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think you must have passed it.

Anonymous

Which I totally could've done before the test, but, well, I didn't :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's on a curve!

Anonymous

14:06

So scores can be adjusted up or down quite a bit depending

Anonymous

It's not what I normally think of as "a curve"―they have their own way of biasing individual questions upward and downward in value, and so forth

Anonymous

It's possible that this year's listening test was harder than usual (everyone said so!) and that my score will get bumped up as a result :-) Or not…

Anonymous

Gee, I sure hope so!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I think using a curve reflects some problems of the tests themselves.

But they can't use the same test every year, anyway.

Anonymous

That's true.

Anonymous

14:08

Even as it is, they have a problem with cheating.

Anonymous

I've heard there's a lot of cheating in certain places, more than others.

Damkerng T.

Strange that people cheat on language tests.

I mean, language skill is one of the easiest things to tell.

Anonymous

I'm kind of curious how the people in China manage to upload the test every year

Anonymous

Afterwards, I mean

Anonymous

(As far as I know they don't upload it in advance! :-)

Damkerng T.

14:10

Oh, I can guess how.

We do something similar here, too.

Anonymous

A lot of people seem to go look at the test online afterwards and try to see how they did (of course, they can't take the curve into account)

Anonymous

But I'll be waiting until February :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. How's that?

Damkerng T.

Assigning a group of test takers to remember a few questions of the test, and when the test is done, having them write all those on paper.

That's one way.

Another way is to bribe someone.

Anonymous

Eep!

Anonymous

14:12

@DamkerngT. A lot of people online seem to jot down their answers (how? on what? I don't know) and take them home so they can check the online test

Anonymous

That seems like a big risk to me, since you could have your test invalidated!

Damkerng T.

If the test allows that, then it will be super easy! ;-)

Anonymous

If they caught you

Damkerng T.

I think I mentioned once that we have some kind of pro test takers.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

14:13

(They take tests for a living!)

Anonymous

That's … weird :-)

Anonymous

I know in college some people here make money by writing essays for other students

Damkerng T.

Ahh... Those pro thesis writers!

Anonymous

I don't know. Maybe we have people here who do tests somehow too.

Anonymous

I haven't heard of it before.

Anonymous

14:20

@DamkerngT. And that user doesn't like it when I downvote without commenting, so I try to comment, but then they just get defensive and irritated

Anonymous

It doesn't end up very productive

Anonymous

So I'm inclined just to downvote without commenting

Damkerng T.

I think you are not the only one.

I think I can understand why that user behaves like that, psychologically.

Anonymous

@KlasLindbäck I've upvoted your comment because I think I am glossing over a significant amount of spherical myalgia. — Dan Allen 24 hours ago

Damkerng T.

So it's kind of mixed feelings I have.

@snailboat You found it!

I think a lot of FF's comments are really good or even great as answers.

His comment to that question is very insightful. I wouldn't be able to guess the meaning without his comment.

Anonymous

14:25

It's just a guess, though.

Anonymous

Spherical myalgia doesn't make sense, as such

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Anonymous

It could well mean "headaches" in context.

Anonymous

Could "spherical myalgia" mean headache? Heads are round (sort of) — Klas Lindbäck 23 hours ago

Anonymous

14:27

Seems possible

Anonymous

FF's does seem like the most convincing guess so far, though.

Anonymous

It wouldn't've ever occurred to me

Damkerng T.

I think the mystery is not that difficult to solve. Just ask Dan, and we will know the answer. :-)

I think SE has an invite-to-answer feature, but I've never tried it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I already did that.

Anonymous

@DanAllen Bat signal: ell.stackexchange.com/q/42861/230 — snailboat 7 mins ago

Damkerng T.

14:32

Ah, nice!

Anonymous

I've never seen an invite-to-answer feature.

Anonymous

If you can locate it, please show me!

Damkerng T.

I tried to find it, but I don't know where it's gone!

I remember it's something like "Know someone who can answer this question? Why don't blah, blah, blah."

Anonymous

Hey, that sounds familiar.

Damkerng T.

Oh, this!

> Know someone who can answer? Share a link to this question via email, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook.

Anonymous

14:34

Ahh, I see.

Anonymous

That is, in fact, what I used to come up with the link :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

By the way, I searched for "know someone who can answer this" stack exchange, and I got 307,000 results (but with only 2 pages of results, so I guess only 14 actual results)

Anonymous

And they're all boilerplate from a single webpage.

Anonymous

Funny how Google works :-)

Damkerng T.

14:36

:D

Agree with everything you mention. I think the slight difference is like the difference between "1 and 2" and "1 then 2". — Damkerng T. 12 secs ago

I'm not sure if that is useful for the OP. It's definitely useful for me.

Anonymous

I don't see any justification for a perfect construction there

Anonymous

I like it better without the perfect auxiliary

Damkerng T.

@snailboat To force that the killing happened before the reporting, perhaps.

(Agree, about the simple past is better.)

Anonymous

There needs to be more context to use a perfect construction.

Ice Girl

15:21

@snailboat Hi. Really thanks for your answer. :)

Anonymous

15:35

@IceGirl Congratulations on reaching 1000 reputation!

Damkerng T.

Congrats!

Damkerng T.

16:00

still would go there - He has still not found the place! But then, when both the words mean the same, we have to depend on our own volition and decide which looks natural! — Maulik V Dec 8 at 6:32

An interesting comment.

I think I've seen the word volition used more frequently lately on ELL.

Some regional Br E usage differentiates while/whilst quite differently from the norm. Whilst basically equals 'during'; 'while' can shift meaning towards 'until'. "I thought about this whilst shopping" or "The shops are open while 4 o'clock" That second one is very much non-standard, but common in Northern UK Eng. — Tetsujin 4 hours ago

Yay! Another mystery solved!

skullpatrol

Elementary, my dear Watson :-)

Damkerng T.

16:15

LOL

skullpatrol

►

Did you see that coming?

Damkerng T.

Someone got exposed!

skullpatrol

Indeed.

Damkerng T.

I'm fancying making a sockpuppet. :D

To demonstrate some behaviors and see how the community will react.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Volition is important in language.

skullpatrol

16:28

@DamkerngT. go for it

Damkerng T.

Nah. -- Unless the fancying message gets 5 stars. :P

Oh, it got 1!

skullpatrol

;-)

user116848

18:12

So my heartbeat sometimes increases when I am about to write something in chat that I fear would be taken as audacious :-)

user116848

Hilarious, ain't it.

user116848

I think this is where my anxiety kicks in.

user116848

So chatting can be bad for my heart in a sense :D

skullpatrol

why?

user116848

Oh, it was a joke.

user116848

18:15

But sometimes it happens.

skullpatrol

ok, try to just relax and be yourself

user116848

Yes, that is what I try to do here.

skullpatrol

who cares what others think?

user116848

Yeah. True.

Anonymous

amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928

2

user116848

18:18

@snailboat Oh, nice title :)

user116848

@snailboat Have you read it?

Anonymous

Yes, and Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman!

Anonymous

Recommended reading

Anonymous

Both relatively short, quick reads

user116848

I have read such books too. They are great.

user116848

18:20

Great for psychological and emotional issues.

user116848

@DamkerngT. That is very unlikely of you DT :-)

user116848

@snailboat I like the fact that you stay here in chat these days :-)

user116848

I haven't made any sock puppet.

user116848

It looks like a fun thing to do though.

user116848

I know I won't upvote myself.

user116848

18:24

But it can happen ;-)

user116848

j/k

Anonymous

@Farooq Well, the test is over now

Anonymous

So I have a little more time

Anonymous

Hats will come in a couple of days.

skullpatrol

hats?

who

needs

your hats?

Anonymous

18:30

Everybody.

Anonymous

Everyone, too.

skullpatrol

raider nation has their hats

already

j/k

Damkerng T.

@Farooq Surely I must be joking. :-)

user116848

I know haha

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol raising hand, well, hands!

user116848

18:37

@snailboat Yeah, I figured. You will clear the test I bet :)

user116848

@skullpatrol How are Raiders doing these days?

skullpatrol

2-12

user116848

It is better I guess, right?

user116848

I mean better than before.

skullpatrol

sure, I would not want to be winless :)

user116848

18:39

yeah. True.

skullpatrol

even the perfect season means nothing in the NFL

win EVERY game all year and lose in the super bowl

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol That reminds me of Eagles in some seasons.

skullpatrol

yep, the New England Patriots will never forget

Damkerng T.

Oh, Patriots, too, maybe. I don't have a solid memory on this.

How many seasons have they won Super Bowl?

skullpatrol

3

Damkerng T.

18:47

Ahh... All by Brady?

skullpatrol

yep

Damkerng T.

I see.

Patriots seem to be doing well this season again.

skullpatrol

now is the time to get ready for the play-offs

Damkerng T.

Oh, the regular season has ended already!?

skullpatrol

3 more weeks

Damkerng T.

18:50

Let's cheer Raiders for the rest three weeks. :D

skullpatrol

one more win would be grrrrreat :D

Damkerng T.

A-ha! Raiders @ Chiefs tomorrow.

skullpatrol

yep

Damkerng T.

1

Q: Insist+ that-clause

I have a question regarding the correct usage of 'insist' in a sentence. So, I don't know which one I should write My mother insisted that I should stay at home for a couple of days due to my illness. or My mother insisted that I am staying at home for a couple of days due to my illness.

Sounds like a trick question.

user116848

So the avatars that already have hats, are they from last year?

user116848

19:01

I don't understand.

Anonymous

Avatars that already have hats?

Anonymous

I don't think there are any

Anonymous

Not real hats

Anonymous

Maybe fake hats.

user116848

Yeah, like skull's avatar.

skullpatrol

19:02

home made

user116848

Oh, I see :-)

skullpatrol

:-)

Anonymous

I love this comment

Anonymous

Anybody who can write a diatesseron is pretty knowledgeable - about something. — tunny Nov 13 at 21:15

skullpatrol

lol

Damkerng T.

19:07

@snailboat I kinda miss him.

user62015

Hi!

Is this a right sentence: "What did you used to do?" I don't think but it has been written in a novel. I would have used it in this way: "What did you use to do?"

Damkerng T.

Agree.

skullpatrol

Me too

user62015

On a device so please forgive for any typo and grammar mistake.

Waiting!!!

Damkerng T.

<-- A little busy on something else, so please allow me to use short replies.

user62015

19:19

Sure. Means I was right. And you wrote "agree"

skullpatrol

That was a rude comment @Farooq by Jasper

Damkerng T.

@user62015 Yes.

user62015

Thanks.

See you soon. Have a great time.

Anonymous

The sentence with used to is fine

Damkerng T.

I suspected there might be something more to it, but I haven't checked anything. Bad me!

user116848

19:21

@skullpatrol Yeah, I know. He asked for my email the other day and I gave it to him.

user116848

I was very reluctant to gave him my email that's why he got pissed I guess.

skullpatrol

@Farooq Ok, it makes more sense now :)

user116848

After a day or two he left the SE chats.

skullpatrol

@Farooq thanks for the context

user116848

Sure.

CopperKettle

20:03

3

Q: Insist+ that-clause

I have a question regarding the correct usage of 'insist' in a sentence. So, I don't know which one I should write My mother insisted that I should stay at home for a couple of days due to my illness. or My mother insisted that I am staying at home for a couple of days due to my illnes...

verb subjunctive that

An interesting question. The guy's second example sentence might be grammatical but off the mark semantically.

Damkerng T.

I'm thinking that the second sentence is fine, too.

CopperKettle

Yep (0:

It's a failed mandative subjunctive (pardon my French)

Damkerng T.

I think the second one is indicative.

CopperKettle

yes (0:

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

20:07

Two poor guys got minus ones for their answers despite their best intentions.

laters!

Damkerng T.

nods -- Sadly, but true. :-)

Laters!

CopperKettle

I just couldn't hold myself and posted a short answer there (0:

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CopperKettle

"My mother insisted that I am staying at home for a couple of days due to my illness."

@DamkerngT. thank you!

Damkerng T.

I think a typical listener would be the teacher. :D

CopperKettle

20:13

I guess "am staying" means that at the time of pronouncing this sentence, the "days" are still continuing

Damkerng T.

nods -- I read it that way, too.

CopperKettle

Because otherwise we should use "... that I was/had been staying at home.."

Damkerng T.

I guess that the OP didn't come up with the two sentences themselves. They must have seen it somewhere on the web or in some book. i don't have time to check, though.

nods

Oh, by the way, I think you could mention that the normal mandative version has no should.

> My mother insisted that I ~~should~~ stay at home for a couple of days due to my illness.

I think should works, too. Not very sure.

CopperKettle

Should will work, I remember reading that

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

20:16

(let Snailboat correct me if I'm wrong, if she wants to)

Damkerng T.

(Perhaps wants to)

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Thank you! Wants probably works for some other contexts.

Damkerng T.

nods

Oh, some movie titles are rather mind-boggling! (I was browsing through my channels, and this Japanese one caught my eye. Its title is Yellow Elephant, and I have no idea what it's about. :-)

CopperKettle

Well, just watch it (0:

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Looks like a young man and a young lady talking on a beach. :D

CopperKettle

20:21

imdb.com/title/tt2404269

Has no description yet

Damkerng T.

It seems like they're going to continue chatting for a long while. :D

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@Farooq Did he say something that made him seem angry?

Damkerng T.

Eep! The man is talking about someone in the past hanging herself!

Anonymous

I imagined he just wouldn't email you because he's decided not to leave, so now he doesn't need to use email to keep in touch

Anonymous

20:25

@CopperKettle Should seems fine

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you! I remember reading that should is okay

user116848

@snailboat Nope

Damkerng T.

Probably, Jasper didn't mean anything serious, I think.

Anonymous

Yeah, he didn't seem angry to me

Damkerng T.

Oh, the Ketchup question is back again! :D

I don't know for sure, but someone told me that there is more tomato in ketchup than in tomato sauce.

CopperKettle

20:35

I read somewhere that processed tomato, like in ketchup, is more beneficial in health terms compared to the raw thing (which is good too)

Anonymous

Ketchup is evil. :-(

Damkerng T.

nods -- But I'm not sure what they add during the process of making the ketchup.

Anonymous

I have condiment aversions.

Anonymous

Mayo is the scariest.

Damkerng T.

Mayonnaise?

CopperKettle

20:36

Mayonnaise?

Damkerng T.

LOL

CopperKettle

(0:

In tems of calorie load it is the scariest

Damkerng T.

Chilli paste could be good for health. :-)

CopperKettle

According to the Guiness World Records, Yekaterinburg has the biggest mayonnaise consumption per capita in the world (often told by locals, I haven't found the proof)

Damkerng T.

Oh!

CopperKettle

20:40

We have a "Food Fats Factory" here, it produces a lot of the stuff

Damkerng T.

Fats?!

CopperKettle

Yes, it's called "fats plant" (Жировой Комбинат)

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

CopperKettle

rusagromaslo.com

Damkerng T.

Oh, the homepage looks nice!

CopperKettle

20:41

Yep (0:

Founded in 1959

Damkerng T.

They probably make olive oils, too.

Or sunflower oils.

CopperKettle

and ketchups

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CopperKettle

yes! and mustard

and 15 brands of soap (never knew that)

Damkerng T.

Oh! 15 brands!

Must be a big factory!

CopperKettle

20:44

yes

In the Russian Wikipedia, there was a battle over mayonnaise jar

Damkerng T.

Hah!

CopperKettle

With some wanting to retain the article "mayonnaise jar", others trying to get it deleted

wikireality.ru/wiki/…

Damkerng T.

What's wrong with the jar?

CopperKettle

It was deemed not important for a whole standalone Wiki article

Anonymous

Ha

CopperKettle

20:49

It was important to some for nostalgic purposes

It was a precious object in the Soviet times

(0:

One guy got so heated up trying to delete the article that he pissed in a mayonnaise jar and posted the photo on the "mayonnaise jar" page at Wikipedia

Damkerng T.

:D

CopperKettle

Writing under it "A specimen of mayonnaise jar, filled by pee just over one-half"

Damkerng T.

Poor jar!

CopperKettle

(0:

Now it's a set phrase in Russian - "filled by [something] by just over one half"

Like, "the state media are filled with lies by just over one half"

Damkerng T.

Nice! -- Btw, we have pages for all the letters. I don't see anything wrong with the jar.

CopperKettle

20:52

@DamkerngT. Well, but there's no page, say, for "Coca Cola bottle"

Damkerng T.

LOL -- Someone might create one some day. :-)

CopperKettle

It will be promptly deleted (0:

Or, there will begin a war.. a cola bottle war

Damkerng T.

LOL

CopperKettle

Hope nobody pisses in a bottle then

Damkerng T.

<-- trying to recall if he has ever done that...

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