English Language Learners - 2014-12-13 (page 1 of 3)

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Anonymous

06:36

4

Q: "I _________ with you, but I had to study"

"I _________ with you, but I had to study" would go might go would have gone could go I thought 1 is correct but the book says it is not correct.

conditional-constructions

Anonymous

The answer correctly picks out "I would have gone with you, but I had to study"

Anonymous

That doesn't mean the other three are ungrammatical

Anonymous

In fact, every choice is grammatical.

Anonymous

But they all leave something unsaid―they all need context to make sense.

Anonymous

You can invent or infer that context, if you like.

Anonymous

06:39

Although it's clear which answer they want you to pick.

skullpatrol

06:50

I would tend to agree, but I really don't know why :P

CopperKettle

Good morning, Snailboat! An interesting point.

I would go with you, but I had to study, and studied too much, and am now too tired to go and play tennis.

skullpatrol

If I didn't have to study, I would've gone with you.

Also, I could've gone with you, if I didn't have to study.

CopperKettle

1

Q: Can we use "at the cost of" to express equality of the prices ...?

I want to say you can buy, for example, three e-books buy exactly the same amount of money which you have to pay to buy a single paper book; Is it correct to say it like this? You can buy, for example, three e-books at the cost of a single paper book? If yes, is it idiomatic or there are be...

grammar meaning-in-context

I wonder if the "for example" part positioned naturally in his example sentence.

"You can buy, for example, three e-books at the cost of a single paper book"

Anonymous

07:05

@CopperKettle That seems like a good sentence.

skullpatrol

three e-books ~~buy~~ for exactly

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you! I just wondered if it weren't better to say "you can, for example, buy.."

Anonymous

@CopperKettle That sounds okay, too.

Anonymous

That weren't sounds funny, though

Anonymous

Maybe it's fine.

Anonymous

07:07

I dunno.

Anonymous

Get a second opinion :-)

CopperKettle

Oh. What construction would you use?

@snailboat Heh

Anonymous

For some reason, I expected a realis wasn't

Anonymous

I can't explain why :-)

CopperKettle

oh. then it must be right to use the realis

Anonymous

07:09

Ah, don't trust my brain too much :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

I've been staring at grammar all day

Anonymous

Who's to say my brain still works? :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

I've been staring at grammar all day
Who's to say my poor brain still okay?

seems like a nice start for a Limerick

the ending line should end in "hay", I guess

I've been staring at grammar all day
Who's to say my poor brain still okay?
Now to cure this affliction
I should soothe it with fiction
And drowse off in a bottle of hay

skullpatrol

:D

CopperKettle

07:27

I wanted to spatchcock "hit the hay" there, but it was refractory to the rhyme

(0:

Anonymous

08:22

@CopperKettle Add 's after brain

CopperKettle

09:12

@snailboat thanks! I overlooked the copula

Damkerng T.

10:05

@snailboat I think one problem is that any context that would go is possible, might go and could go would be possible, too. (If we ignored the speaker's intention.)

Anonymous

10:18

You mean they'd be grammatical but with different meanings

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Probably, the difference is not very big.

Anonymous

Well

Anonymous

"If A would go, then B would go too."

Anonymous

B's willingness to go is contingent on A's willingness to go.

Anonymous

If you substitute in might or could for the first would, it doesn't make sense

Anonymous

10:23

If you replaced both of them, you'd end up with possible sentences, but the meaning in each case would be clearly different

Anonymous

Personally, I would use whilst for that sentence. — Joe Dark 16 mins ago

Anonymous

I don't really think we should recommend whilst to learners in normal speech

Anonymous

Not that people can't use whilst if they want to, but it's highly marked

Anonymous

Slightly less so in BrE

Damkerng T.

@snailboat But I only meant it for "I would go with you but I had to study."

user116848

10:26

@snailboat When we give answers sometimes it is okay to write our own sentences in blockquote, right? For presentation.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think I don't know what it's marked for, but I'm rather sure that I've heard it only in BrE.

@Farooq I do that, sometimes. When I'm quite sure that they're good sentences.

user116848

@DamkerngT. okay

Damkerng T.

(Only for sentences I want to quote, not the explanation, btw.)

For example, apsillers does the same in ell.stackexchange.com/a/42866/3281). "I have to study today." "I had to study yesterday."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I thought you were presenting it as a general rule

Anonymous

@Farooq Yes, you can put your own examples in a blockquote.

Anonymous

10:33

@DamkerngT. Not me. I've heard it in AmE.

Anonymous

Both BrE and AmE use whilst.

Anonymous

Neither uses it very much, but it's more common in BrE.

Anonymous

So it makes sense that you'd have heard it in BrE and not AmE.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... When would people say whilst in AmE? Only formally?

Anonymous

Most people wouldn't.

Anonymous

10:35

I don't know when.

Anonymous

I guess whenever they feel like it. :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Anonymous

Same in BrE, where it's more common, but still the marked alternative.

Anonymous

I'll amend my comment.

Anonymous

Eh, I'll just remove it. People can say whilst all they want.

Anonymous

10:36

It's not like it's ungrammatical.

Anonymous

I'll also amend my message to say "more common" rather than "slightly less rare", since that appears to have overstated things

Anonymous

Although you can certainly find AmE examples.

Anonymous

Hundreds in COCA.

Anonymous

Don't ask me why. I'm not a whilster.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I just hope that those hundreds aren't just comments taken from some websites.

Anonymous

10:40

They must have some reason.

Anonymous

Well, it's COCA, not GloWbE

Anonymous

You could check to see if some of those results are by UK speakers or the like.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I got an idea!

Anonymous

> Clearly, there are scientific discoveries that can be kept secret, for a period at least, especially where weapons systems are involved. But these often verge on the technological, and, whilst frequently spectacular, they do not stay secret long. Someone else gets onto the idea.

Damkerng T.

archive.org/details/tv?q=whilst

About 1859 hits!

Anonymous

10:42

How many of them are BrE speakers, d'ya think?

Damkerng T.

I have no idea!

Anonymous

Maybe the difference is larger than the data shows

Anonymous

How about this: I could leave a comment pointing out that whilst is chiefly BrE

Damkerng T.

I think that's fair.

Anonymous

American English speakers would typically not use whilst. — snailboat 5 secs ago

Damkerng T.

10:43

Macmillan: whilst conjunction British formal: while

Anonymous

I inverted it so that I'm only talking about AmE speakers

Anonymous

That way, I don't make any assertions about other language varieties without investigating

Anonymous

I definitely have had a harder time getting upvotes on ELL recently. It might just be because there're more questions dividing up people's attention

Anonymous

I dunno.

Damkerng T.

That's probably true.

Anonymous

10:45

I don't think my answers are generally getting worse. On the contrary, I cringe when I look back at my older, worse answers. :-)

Anonymous

Not that every new answer I make is good.

Anonymous

But eh. They're answers. They just have to be useful, they don't have to be perfect :-)

Damkerng T.

I think good answers could be overlooked when ELL homepage is flooded by new questions.

Anonymous

I'm impressed that nima always spends all of his reputation on bounties.

skullpatrol

The EL &U chat room is a jungle sometimes.

Anonymous

10:46

Welcome to the jungle

3

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I upvote his questions immediately every time he offers a bounty.

Anonymous

Why?

Damkerng T.

I only think it's a fair thing to do.

Maybe I subconsciously want to see more bounties from him!

Anonymous

10:50

I only upvote questions when I think they're good questions

Anonymous

Bounties don't improve questions in my opinion

Anonymous

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

Not much data on any of these phrases

Anonymous

It seems like the choice of till and until would be different in that example than in the OP's…

Anonymous

But until then should be significantly more common in this context than but till then

Anonymous

10:55

In COCA, I find 151 and 7 results

Anonymous

In BNC, I find 25 and 3 results

Anonymous

For but until then and but till then respectively

Damkerng T.

Also exists: 'til, til

Anonymous

So in general until is more common in that string,

skullpatrol

"but till then" sounds awkward on its own

Anonymous

10:56

@DamkerngT. Nonstandardly.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol It can work in some contexts

Anonymous

In this particular sentence, till sounds beyond awkward

Anonymous

Just my opinion…

Anonymous

I don't have any basis for it other than native intuition

skullpatrol

What would be "beyond" awkward?

Anonymous

10:58

In this context, that means "bad enough that awkward is not a strong enough term to describe it"

CopperKettle

@snailboat - thanks for un-typing the typos!

Anonymous

@CopperKettle :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol I think snailboat referred to this: Mohan said that he had been in London for two months but until then/till then he had not time to visit the water.

Anonymous

I don't know why till sounds wrong there

Anonymous

11:00

Oh well.

Anonymous

Tough question!

Damkerng T.

Maybe the sentence doesn't sound casual enough.

skullpatrol

Thanks for the context pal @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

np :-)

Anonymous

The spelling 'til indicates the reanalysis of till as a reduced form of until

Anonymous

11:02

There's nothing particularly wrong with that reanalysis (although of course it didn't happen that way historically)

skullpatrol

If spoken fast enough it almost works.

Anonymous

But it's not accepted as a standard spelling any more than would of is accepted as a spelling for would have

Anonymous

There's no difference in pronunciation between 'til and till

Anonymous

It's just a matter of which spellings people like and which ones people don't like

Anonymous

And people still get frowny when it comes to 'til

Damkerng T.

11:04

Hehe! -- frowned upon

skullpatrol

:D

Damkerng T.

> Grammar says: usually you use while with an ing form
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/42905/3281

Anonymous

Grammar, eh?

Damkerng T.

I think they (the Grammar that says) probably meant only dynamic verbs. Dunno.

3

Q: How to improve understanding of long sentences in prose?

What are some efficient, methodical, productive ways to improve the skill and speed of interpreting, parsing, and reading long prosaic sentences? I refer not only to legalese or legal language, but also any complx sentence written in modern English prose. For instance, are there basics, fundament...

learning reading

This generates a long thread of comments!

I think I have some ideas, but I'm pretty sure they're not going to like them.

Anonymous

I think just reading a lot would help.

Anonymous

11:11

I don't have any magic solution, though.

Damkerng T.

nods

skullpatrol

nods to the mod

You should learn to walk before you try to run.

Damkerng T.

One problem is, I think, none of the learners would want to talk like a 5yo. :D

Anonymous

@skullpatrol I don't see anything wrong with your recent answer

Damkerng T.

We're just born grown-up in second languages.

Oh, -1!

Anonymous

11:22

@DamkerngT. I looked further into whilst.

Anonymous

Many of the COCA examples are in fact BrE speakers.

Anonymous

Not all, but it seems like the gap was larger than I imagined.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

It's sure to be less marked in BrE.

Anonymous

Markedness, a term that originated in linguistics, is the state of standing out as unusual or difficult in comparison to a more common or regular form. In a marked–unmarked relation, one term of an opposition is the broader, dominant one. The dominant default or minimum effort form is known as the unmarked form; and the other, secondary one is the marked. In other words, markedness involves the characterization of a "normal" linguistic unit against the unit's possible "irregular" forms. In linguistics, markedness can apply, among others, phonological, grammatical, and semantic oppositions, defining...

Damkerng T.

11:23

I can imagine a lot of BrE speakers saying whilst.

Anonymous

Although whilst is still less common in BrE than, say, while.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, that seems reasonable.

Damkerng T.

I can't figure out the contrast, though. (When the same speaker sometimes uses while and sometimes uses whilst.)

skullpatrol

What branch of linguistics does phonology belong to, or is it branch of its own?

Anonymous

Hey, Ice Girl has 1000 reputation now. Wasn't that her goal?

Anonymous

11:25

@DamkerngT. Dunno. Maybe someone else (a BrE speaker?) would know more.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol You could call it a branch. There are linguists who identify as phonologists.

Anonymous

In different frameworks, phonology has a different place.

Anonymous

In generative grammar, phonology is considered part of grammar.

Anonymous

There's a strong tradition of generative phonology in western linguistics.

CopperKettle

I tried to answer on “tube” vs. “tubing” and found that I'm uncertain what the word rails means in one poem - rails on the stairs, train rails, or rails of a window

Anonymous

11:27

@snail - I think both words can be used in both ways. (For example: They won the battle, but at a terrible price.) I didn't mean to say that we can't use cost for abstract things like health – only that it's not limited to that usage. — J.R. ♦ 32 secs ago

Anonymous

Oops, I confused J.R. by being unclear―I was trying to agree with him! :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It seems like my click did it. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Woo hoo!

skullpatrol

What do they mean by "generative" @snailboat?

Anonymous

@CopperKettle What poem?

CopperKettle

11:28

@snailboat en.wikisource.org/wiki/Notes_on_the_Firth

At home! — the soaked shrubs whisper dismal-mooded.
The rails are strung with drops, and steeped the grasses,
Black chimney-shadows streak the shiny slates.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol It originally comes from the idea that, if you had the right set of rules, you could generate all the possible sentences in a language.

Anonymous

Of course, this isn't actually possible.

Anonymous

The term generative encompasses a lot of different theoretical frameworks that descending from the same set of ideas, though

Anonymous

If you'd like an introduction to generative grammar in an English context, I recommend picking up McCawley's The Syntactic Phenomena of English

skullpatrol

So a set of "axioms"?

Anonymous

11:30

You know, a lot of people do try to relate grammar to math, but I've never felt that it worked out especially well

Anonymous

amazon.com/Syntactic-Phenomena-English-James-McCawley/dp/…

Anonymous

If you read this, you'll have a good idea of what generative grammar is and how it works. (You'll learn a lot of other stuff, too.)

Damkerng T.

I think learning a second language as an adult is sort of like math.

(The more the learner makes it math-like, the harder time they will get.)

skullpatrol

Thanks for the reference @snailboat I was thinking more along the lines of phonology, but I will check it out.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol What is your interest in phonology?

skullpatrol

11:34

Math related.

Anonymous

You could ask on Linguistics.SE for phonology references on a given topic (e.g., introduction to English phonology, etc.)

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol Interesting!

Anonymous

The textbook I have is Roach's English Phonetics and Phonology

Anonymous

That's a textbook designed to be read in order (not a reference book)

Anonymous

It's for linguistics students

Damkerng T.

11:36

Anonymous

But I don't have a really in-depth knowledge of English phonology…

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh, so it could be "rails" of a door! thanks! I initially thought it were "rails" along the stairs to the entrance. You know, the kind of rails you grasp with your hands.

Anonymous

Nor of generative phonology in general

Anonymous

(Most Japanese phonologists have their own traditions separate from that of the western generative phonologists)

Anonymous

So you might be better off asking for references elsewhere…

CopperKettle

11:39

I thought it were handrails, and imagined them strung with raindrops.

skullpatrol

Sometimes if you read a sentence in a math book in just the right way by putting emphasis on just the right words BANG! It makes sense. Is that phonology @snailboat ?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I can't identify half of those.

Damkerng T.

I'm still not sure what rails the poem refers to.

@snailboat Oh!

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I'd still guess it were handrails then. (0:

Anonymous

@skullpatrol I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't really understand the question

Anonymous

11:40

What was the poem again?

CopperKettle

@snailboat en.wikisource.org/wiki/Notes_on_the_Firth

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I picture railings or handrails around a house

CopperKettle

The rails are strung with drops, and steeped the grasses

@snailboat Oh, so I was right, thanks.

Anonymous

user image

Anonymous

Like, if these were dewy.

CopperKettle

11:42

nods

Anonymous

That sorta dealie.

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Ahh, language is hard.

CopperKettle

I think we should use the prison to make some criminals be punished for the crimes that they have done.

Anonymous

That's awkward.

CopperKettle

11:46

I wonder if this is passive

Anonymous

Looks like.

CopperKettle

but there's that make

Anonymous

That's not relevant.

CopperKettle

make them sorry, make them be punished

oh

Anonymous

Sentences aren't active or passive.

CopperKettle

11:47

okay

Anonymous

Clauses are.

Anonymous

That verb is at a different level in the tree.

Anonymous

Make is active.

CopperKettle

oh, it's like "make him cry"

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

11:48

However, make him be punished is rather awkward.

Anonymous

Maybe … semantically suspect

Anonymous

I would really rather change the sentence to avoid it.

Anonymous

In this sentence, make some criminals be punished could be replaced with punish criminals

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

The tube vs. tubing question was migrated to ELU!

Anonymous

11:52

I recommended that

Anonymous

But I think J.R. was reluctant to migrate unless the OP wanted it

Anonymous

So I guess the OP must have commented and said they wanted it to be migrated :-)

Anonymous

I have very rarely successfully gotten anything migrated either way between ELL and ELU

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think short words are more prone to this phenomenon. He sits there. That is a long sit. There were two sittings for lunch.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What phenomenon?

Anonymous

11:54

What are the second and third sentences intended to mean?

Damkerng T.

That a word can be both verb and noun, some in their plain forms, some with -ing.

That is a long sit. = a long period of sitting

There were two sittings for lunch. = two meals were served during the lunch

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This seems like a particularly rare sentence, although I don't see anything wrong with it

Anonymous

To me, it means something like: "Oh, you're going to sit and wait for tickets? That is a long sit. They don't open for two weeks!"

Anonymous

cf. "That is a long walk!" = You'll have to walk a long time [to reach the destination].

Damkerng T.

Ahh... now sit is waiting!

Anonymous

11:57

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone use sit that way before, though.

Damkerng T.

Probably old-fashioned.

Anonymous

> I slowly picked my way to the hemlock tree in the thickest part of the bedding area. I covered the 500 yards to the tree flawlessly, but in the pre-dawn darkness spooked a deer when I was halfway up the tree. Not knowing what I had spooked, I readied myself for a long sit. About a half-hour after legal light I heard a lone grunt in the gully below.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Why do you think so?

Anonymous

Did you read it in older books?

Damkerng T.

Because I don't hear it very often, I think.

Anonymous

11:59

corpus.byu.edu/coha/?c=coha&q=35594790

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But you believe it was common in the past. I wondered why.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods -- It sounds like something from old books.

Anonymous

I don't have any experience with it, so I don't have any such belief

Anonymous

Although again, I don't see anything wrong with the phrase

Anonymous

I'm just curious, is all

CopperKettle

12:00

I think we should use the prison to make some criminals repent the crimes that they have done.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I wonder how often repent is used transitively versus intransitively

CopperKettle

@snailboat So it's better as "repent of the crimes.."?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Do you remember any books where you read it?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think I went through this kind of experience when I started working with people from other countries. I found that the English I'd learned and the English they used were different!

Anonymous

I kind of like the phrase

Anonymous

12:01

@CopperKettle Oh, um, no? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably in reading assignments.

Anonymous

I was thinking the most common use of repent is just, well, repent

Anonymous

Maybe repent for 〜〜

Anonymous

Lessee.

CopperKettle

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Anonymous

12:03

Repent of seems fairly common in biblical type stuff.

CopperKettle

oh

Anonymous

Repent for looks like it's a little bit less common than repent of in COCA overall

Anonymous

I think repent (without any following complements) is fairly common

Anonymous

I've never had much occasion to use the word myself

Anonymous

I run into regret more often than repent

Anonymous

12:06

But of course that's a matter of circumstance :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Oh, it's fun talking about English.

Anonymous

Oh, hey! It turns out I'm helping with an answer post :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

Hearing repent made me think of a novel. It starts with a rabbi being hurled to another world. Some years later, a group of people set out to find him, going through a portal they was able to predict the time and place it would appear.

@snailboat Hooray!

Anonymous

12:10

I think you should mention that make them be punished doesn't sound very good

CopperKettle

I wonder if there's a combination "Make them be [verb]-ed" in existence that will not sound strange.

@snailboat done!

Damkerng T.

I can imagine make sure them be punished in AmE!

Anonymous

> Why did you stay there? Why not move out? Why not get away from it? Why make yourself be reminded of this all the time?

Anonymous

(COCA)

CopperKettle

@snailboat Thank you!

Anonymous

12:12

@DamkerngT. In what dialect?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Maybe pirate-speak. :D

Anonymous

＝ "Why put yourself in a position where you'll be reminded of this all the time?"

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Make sure them be punished! Yarrr!

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Maybe in Jack Sparrow's accent, even! :D

CopperKettle

12:15

This reminded me of
http://www.host4pics.ru/image/fb6bfdc74bb9f2e060ddd35cd06250fc

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Subtitles, please! :D

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh, yes

Yoda says: "This potato to Yoda give you want!"

Damkerng T.

LOL

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

1

Q: How to say 'must have' when this is not an opinion, but a certainty?

I would like to say that the user has pressed a button in order to land here, and that he/she actually had no other option. The best I can think of is: The user must have clicked a button. but I believe this only means: My opinion is the user has clicked a button. However, I know that...

phrase-request modal-verbs

Anonymous

12:25

Ah, a surprisingly deep question about modality :-)

Damkerng T.

Very!

I was tempted to suggest that one obvious alternative is "We know that the user had no other choice than to click a button."

"The user must have clicked a button." is fine as is, imo. The OP probably want to sound absolutely assertive.

(It might be better to say the button. I mean, they must know which button the user clicked.)

CopperKettle

had to click the button?

Damkerng T.

Had to do probably will amount to the same thing as must have done.

Oh, I think the usage in AmE and BrE might be a little different. Hmm...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I agree. There's nothing wrong with using must to express that their knowledge is not absolute and that they've only made a confident inference.

Damkerng T.

Maybe, had to do sounds a little stronger than must have done in AmE. Not very sure.

Anonymous

12:34

I don't think so…

Anonymous

That kind of thing is difficult to discuss, though.

Anonymous

Let's see.

Anonymous

I'm going to look up must in Biber et al

CopperKettle

@snailboat But the OP wants to frame the sentence in the sense "He had no other option but to press the button"

I guessed had to was enough to cover this sense.

Anonymous

I know there are uses of must that are more common in BrE

Anonymous

12:36

But on the whole, I don't think must is any more frequent in BrE

Anonymous

I think it's just used a little bit differently sometimes

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=35595345

Damkerng T.

Oh, the number of GB is a little surprise!

Anonymous

Mustn't, for example, is mainly BrE.

Anonymous

Must is perfectly fine and common in AmE

Damkerng T.

12:40

@ColleenV: I'm commenting a program. I want to describe the conditions for executing an instruction (the instruction can be reached only if the user clicked a button). — mins 5 mins ago

Anonymous

Let's see

Damkerng T.

Oh, now that makes it a different question!

Anonymous

Biber et al say that in conversation must is significantly more common in BrE

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Maybe he should write "at this point, the user will have clicked the button"

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle nods

CopperKettle

12:41

..but that might be too arkane for non-native programmers

Anonymous

> Surprisingly, must in conversation is used most of the time to mark logical necessity. Must in academic prose is somewhat more common marking personal obligation than logical necessity.

Anonymous

(p.494)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Does this "logical necessity" mean speculation or opinion-based reasoning of some kind?

Anonymous

Yes, if A is true, then B must be true

Anonymous

That sort of thing

Damkerng T.

12:44

nods

Anonymous

Just a moment

Damkerng T.

I think it doesn't include "We bought these tools in case we must fight fire," perhaps.

Hmm... Modality is indeed hard, when we want to elaborate the cases.

Anonymous

> Each modal can have two different types of meaning, which can be labeled intrinsic and extrinsic (also referred to as 'deontic' and 'epistemic' meanings). Intrinsic modality refers to actions and events that humans (or other agents) directly control: meanings relating to permission, obligation, or volition (or intention). Extrinsic modality refers to the logical status of events or states, usually relating to assessments of likelihood: possibility, necessity, or prediction.

2

Anonymous

This is how Biber et al describe modality

Damkerng T.

Neat! (and thanks!)

Anonymous

12:48

So as you can see here, "logical necessity" falls under the blanket of epistemic modality

Anonymous

In other words, things you don't know for a fact are true, but follow logically from some premise

Anonymous

That is, in this case, the button must have clicked a button, otherwise they couldn't have arrived at this page.

Anonymous

This is Biber et al's "logical necessity".

Anonymous

(They don't create a separate group for "dynamic modality")

Damkerng T.

After reading the OP's comment, I think all he needs is perhaps just the simple past.

switch (cond) {
case A: /* the user clicked a button */
  doSomething();
  break;
default: /* no clicking happened yet */
  doSomethingElse();
  break;
}

Anonymous

12:56

You can't use `.

Anonymous

The proper syntax is four spaces at the beginning of every line, including blank lines.

Anonymous

Chat Markdown is strange.

Anonymous

I edited it.

Anonymous

Hope that's okay. :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks!

CopperKettle

12:59

Would this work "At this point, the user will have clicked a button, let's update the message accordingly..."

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