English Language Learners

CopperKettle

10:30

Good day, @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Hello! I'll be back in a few minutes.

CopperKettle

No problem!

Damkerng T.

I'm back!

CopperKettle

Wow, you're fast!

(0:

This question got me wondering:
http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/41300/it-was-an-admission-that-all-might-not-be-right-between-them-what-does-this-s/41303#41303

1

A: "It was an admission that all might not be right between them." What does this sentence mean?

It was an admission that all might not be right between them. The meaning is It was the admission of the possibility that not everything in their relationships was smooth. Or It was an admission that, probably, not all was right between them. Technically speaking, all is a dete...

Damkerng T.

My cat just wanted something, so it was rather quick. :D

CopperKettle

10:32

Oh, I also have a cat, name(d?) Nelson. (0:

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CopperKettle

He usually wants food and play..

Damkerng T.

Nelson sounds like a male name.

Ahh... Pet him for me, if he is near. :D

CopperKettle

Yes! He is of British breed, so we named him Nelson

@DamkerngT. Okay!

Damkerng T.

I don't know what kind of cat my Hagu is! :D

CopperKettle

10:34

Horatio Nelson, to be more precise

Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson

Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson, KB (29 September 1758 – 21 October 1805) was a British flag officer in the Royal Navy. He was noted for his inspirational leadership and superb grasp of strategy and unconventional tactics, which resulted in a number of decisive naval victories, particularly during the Napoleonic Wars. He was wounded several times in combat, losing one arm in the unsuccessful attempt to conquer Santa Cruz de Tenerife and the sight in one eye in Corsica. He was shot and killed during his final victory at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. Nelson was born into a moderately prosperous...

Damkerng T.

Neat! He even has a full name!

CopperKettle

But the picture is not of him, mind you (0:

He is fatter (0:

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Oh, mind is quite fat, too!

CopperKettle

Hagu is a nice name? Is it a female name?

Damkerng T.

He is male.

CopperKettle

10:36

Oh. Good too!

Damkerng T.

I think most traditional dictionaries would classify that all as pronoun.

StoneyB mentioned fused-head determiners a couple days ago, I think this is the term CGEL uses, and probably other new-age grammars use this same term, too.

CopperKettle

Interesting!

Damkerng T.

StoneyB's example was "I want more."

I read that line from the novel a little differently.

> “OK?” It was an admission that all might not be right between them. s it OK for us to do something together? Ender’s answer was to take Alai by the wrist and get ready to push off.

Alai asked "OK?" And that was an admission.

Alai wasn't sure if the coming together of Ender and him was right (or okay).

Ender's Game has a lot of subtexts, iirc.

CopperKettle

Oh.

Damkerng T.

Alai and Ender were of different races. They had different religions. They had originally been in different groups.

And iirc, they kissed.

I can't remember who kissed who, probably Alai kissed Ender.

CopperKettle

10:45

Thank you! So my word smooth is a bit off the mark.

Damkerng T.

A little bit.

CopperKettle

I've bookmarked the book to read later. Could be a nice book.

Damkerng T.

It's possible that they might have developed their relationship earlier than that scene. I can't remember the whole story.

@CopperKettle It is a classic novel!

CopperKettle

So I've read in Wikipedia!

I wonder if the clause starting with that is a noun clause serving as subject..

Damkerng T.

I think it's a standard relative clause.

"It was an admission." -- "It was an admission that [...]"

It looks like an introductory it, too!

CopperKettle

10:49

"dummy it"

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

englishgrammar.org/thatclause-noun-clause

I read this page and thought that this is also a noun clause

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Probably not. An introductory it would make sense when we reverse the clause.

?That all might not be right between them was an admission. -- doesn't sound right.

So I think it refers to the question "OK?". It's just a normal it.

CopperKettle

I also noticed it loses its meaning a bit when I rephrase it like you did

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

10:52

Maybe I should ask a question on what is it at ELL.

Damkerng T.

I think it is a pronoun, that all might not be right between them is a relative clause (a restrictive one), all is a pronoun, and right means okay.

CopperKettle

But shouldn't a relative clause be headed by its relative pronoun? Like, "It was an admission that changed his life"

With that serving as subject

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Good point.

I remember that some that-clauses are pronouns, and some are not.

CopperKettle

hmm..

Damkerng T.

There are a couple examples under PEU 583. (No clear explanation, though.)

> I admire your belief that you are always right.
I understood his wish that we should be there.

CopperKettle

11:00

Thank you, Damkerng! I'll look up now.

Yes, PEU does not say what is the grammatical role of these that-clause in their sentences.

0

Q: "It was an admission that all might not be right between them." - that-clause as subject.. or not?

It was an admission that all might not be right between them. What is the grammatical role of the that-clause here? I first thought it's a noun clause serving as the subject of the sentence: That all might not be right between them | was | an admission. But such reading strips the se...

clauses

Damkerng T.

A wish, a hope, pity, a shame, a fact, an idea, an admission, a belief.

I don't know what else, but it looks like there is a class of nouns that allow having a that-clause as its postmodifier.

CopperKettle

Oh, the word is postmodifier.

You need only to post the answer then (0;

Damkerng T.

11:16

I still can't pinpoint its usage.

CopperKettle

criticalreading.com/noun_phrase.htm#linkd

" the thought that I had yesterday"

It was the thought that I had yesterday. We cannot gloss it as "that I had yesterday | was | thought"

Bingo

Damkerng T.

You can post your own question, too!

@CopperKettle Nice!

CopperKettle

Maybe I will!

Damkerng T.

I think the problem is most grammar books explain that-clauses in the context of the relative clause, and usually basically say that a relative clause is a relative pronoun.

> Here is the thought that I had yesterday.
I had a though yesterday. Here is the thought.

> Here is the thought (that) I had ~~a though~~ yesterday.

CopperKettle

"is a relative pronoun" = serves as a relative pronoun?

Damkerng T.

11:21

I can't find a good grammar point that explains the cases that we don't have to delete anything.

@CopperKettle Yes, I tried to be a bit vague by saying "basically".

CopperKettle

Are there such cases?

Damkerng T.

It's our case.

> I admire your belief that you are always right.

> I admire your belief. Your belief is that you are always right.

CopperKettle

But is the that-clause here a relative clause or a noun clause?

Damkerng T.

> I admire your belief ~~Your belief is~~ that you are always right.

CopperKettle

I'm too slow to follow this (0:

Damkerng T.

11:24

Hmm... a noun phrase sounds like a good idea.

CopperKettle

I remember @snailboat telling something, using some specific terminology regarding relative clauses

a "missing slot" or something like that

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think she usually uses the term "gap".

CopperKettle

Yes! There is a "gap" in relative clauses.

Damkerng T.

> learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/…

> - with a that clause.
This is very common with reporting or summarising nouns like idea, fact, belief, suggestion:
He’s still very fit, in spite of the fact that he’s over eighty.
She got the idea that people didn’t like her.
There was a suggestion that the children should be sent home.

Still not a good explanation, imo.

Though evidently, they use the term postmodifer, too.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

11:32

I wish to see something like, a noun phrase can be postmodified by many things, among these are relative clauses and that-clauses. And here is exactly when we use that-clauses, and why we don't turn such a that-clause into a relative clause.

"reporting or summarising nouns like idea, fact, belief, suggestion" is a good start, though, admittedly.

> dictionary.cambridge.org/es/gramatica/gramatica-britanica/…

> We use a noun + that-clause to express opinions and feelings, often about certainty and possibility. We also use that with reporting nouns. Some nouns commonly used in this way are belief, fact, hope, idea, possibility, suggestion, statement, claim, comment, argument: [...]

CopperKettle

Can we say "It was a thought what I had yesteday", I wonder (0:

Damkerng T.

No, I don't think so.

CopperKettle

Meaning, "What I had yesterday was really a thought" (And I thought it was a headache)

Damkerng T.

This one is fine, I believe.

CopperKettle

But I just remodeled "It was a thought what I had yesteday".

Damkerng T.

11:41

I don't think what can head a clause that works as a postmodifier.

CopperKettle

Oh.

Damkerng T.

It seems to be mainly for who and which (which is usually informally taken over by that).

I think we can see where and when sometimes used.

Hmm... I can't imagine a good example for what.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

4

A: The meaning of 'where' in "Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things rationally and logically"

Your sentences, As an ISTJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you take things in via your five senses in a literal, concrete fashion. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things rationally and logically. though still convey a roughly similar idea when ...

CopperKettle

Okay, let someone else give an answer to my question, maybe there'll be some additional info (0:

Damkerng T.

11:45

I remember I found "8.104 'When' and 'where' are used in non-defining clauses" in Collins COBUILD English Grammar.

The full section mentions when, where, why, how. Strangely, it doesn't mention what.

@CopperKettle I'm looking forward to it. :D

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Thanks! I'll read up on that.

@DamkerngT. same here (0:

Laters!

Damkerng T.

It's been a great pleasure. See you later!

user116848

15:32

Hi!

user116848

I am busy with preparations of exams too.

user116848

Let's hope I clear them.

Damkerng T.

Good luck with your exams!

user116848

Finance papers are pretty difficult.

Damkerng T.

They're supposed to be difficult, I believe.

user116848

15:34

Yes, they are. It is same in every field I guess.

user116848

Every paper seems difficult.

Damkerng T.

Somehow I don't feel like computing papers are very difficult.

They can be difficult when the authors try to avoid telling everything.

user116848

I see. So you found them easy. It is a good thing.

user116848

That pretty much shows that you are good at it.

Damkerng T.

I usually think of technical stuff as easy.

user116848

15:36

Nice!

Damkerng T.

Because they're supposed to be understandable!

user116848

Some folks find finance papers easy too. Or at least they think it is not that difficult.

user116848

Maybe they are natural at it.

user116848

i don't know.

user116848

:-)

Damkerng T.

15:38

Maybe they know how to read them.

user116848

Yeah.

Damkerng T.

Do you know the meaning of this emoticon, by any chance?

@DamkerngT. Oh! I forgot that too! >0< — Santi Santichaivekin 3 mins ago

user116848

I read about your cat. How is it?

Damkerng T.

My cat is fine, and a bit fat. :D

user116848

@DamkerngT. Um...no. No entry on Google too. It looks like they are "surprised".

Damkerng T.

15:40

He is also disobedient at times, but well, he's a cat!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Haha! :D

Damkerng T.

Some of my typos are really weird.

user116848

We all make them.

Damkerng T.

Spelling believe as beleive or belief is understandable, I think. But sometimes I write they for the or even the for and. I don't know what I was thinking. Obviously, my mouth and my hands don't always express the same thing. :D

user116848

Yeah. It happens to me too.

user116848

15:45

Sometimes I want to say one thing and I end up writing something else.

user116848

It is rare but it happens.

user116848

I learn from that sort of thing a lot. It gives me experience and I feel like improving sometimes.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I wish I could spend more time to review my own writing; chat messages would be nice.

user116848

Yep. Sometimes I go through my old chat comments and I laugh.

user116848

They look silly sometimes. Some of them.

Damkerng T.

15:49

I rarely read my own messages. Only sometimes, when I search for something I know I mentioned here.

user116848

nods

user116848

I'll pop in here later...

user116848

See ya!

Damkerng T.

Okay! See you later!

Amit Joki

16:12

@DamkerngT. hi!

Damkerng T.

16:22

@AmitJoki Hello!

Amit Joki

should books have classic fonts?

Damkerng T.

Not necessarily, I think.

That would depend on what book we are talking about, too.

Amit Joki

I recently changed my theme. It looks classic(as in font). So asked :)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Amit Joki

I remember you said you write technical articles right?

Damkerng T.

16:30

I used to. I still write about my own work, which is usually technical, but it's only for internal use.

Amit Joki

ahem! I doubt here captain!

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Amit Joki

Like you write technical things not for other companies but for your internal use?

Damkerng T.

Yup.

Amit Joki

Do you have any of that on the web?

Damkerng T.

16:32

I have to write for others when I work for them or I want to communicate to them.

(I just realized that I sometimes still have to do it. :-)

@AmitJoki No. Most of my work is by contract.

Amit Joki

ah! Got it.

Damkerng T.

I can't even talk about some of my projects.

Amit Joki

So you don't have any blog or any such things?

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Amit Joki

BTW I liked your statement which is second on the starred list but am afraid to star it :)

Damkerng T.

16:34

LOL

Amit Joki

well, do look at my edit!

I meant "star"

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Amit Joki

exactly.

btw didn't get the use of - in the comment. (I'm kidding, lol)

how do they teach English in your place?

Damkerng T.

They try different things. I'd say they try their best.

Amit Joki

different things?

Damkerng T.

16:41

It usually starts at 5-6, with English letters, simple words like table, teacher, and so on, and then it will focus on reading and grammar.

There are different approaches here.

Some schools, seeing that grammar-based doesn't work really well, hire native speakers to teach their students and try to work on speaking more.

Some schools go even further (like, international schools). All teachers are native speakers of English, or at least must always speak English. And everything will be taught in English.

Amit Joki

that's great. I suppose you also learnt from there

Damkerng T.

Nope. When I was young, it was mainly about reading and grammar, and it didn't work really well for me.

CopperKettle

16:55

Good evening!

Damkerng T.

Good late evening!

CopperKettle

Oh, it must be midnight in Bangkok!

Damkerng T.

Almost! :D

Amit Joki

AH! Good Night, here in India!

CopperKettle

4 minutes less (0:

Hi @AmitJoki!

Amit Joki

16:57

@CopperKettle hiya mate!

CopperKettle

In Yekaterinburg it's 22:00

In Delhi, it's half hour more or less, I forgot which

It's less

I wonder it there's really such a difference between "I must say that" and "I must tell that"

Damkerng T.

Ah, I read that. I have an idea, but I'm not sure if native speakers will feel the same way.

Amit Joki

even if there is some, it will be minute

Damkerng T.

I think the two are quite different.

CopperKettle

I stumbled upon this by chance, trying to proofread one text.

Damkerng T.

17:01

Try sense 5: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/tell#tell_52

Amit Joki

I suppose you've to use say version when complementing

CopperKettle

The original sentence went like this "I must tell that the mechanics, which I met - it is rogues."

Damkerng T.

That doesn't look grammatical.

CopperKettle

It is not directed at some particular listener, just venting one's dissatisfaction with mechanics - so I guess "I must say" is better

@DamkerngT. It should be ungrammatical, it's from lang-8 (0:

Amit Joki

How can you meet mechanics?

CopperKettle

17:04

@AmitJoki isn't a mechanic a guy who does car repairs?

Amit Joki

mechanic is, mechanics isn't. It's a field

CopperKettle

she meant "mechanics" in plural

Amit Joki

she??

CopperKettle

Yes, a woman learning English

lang-8.com/1003120/journals/…

Amit Joki

ah!

CopperKettle

17:06

Oops, her post is for lang-8 users only.

Amit Joki

no worry. Signing up using fb

you found me damn quick! @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

Yep (0:

Amit Joki

Is there any of your personal photo up there?

I can only see a copper kettle :p

CopperKettle

From a bicycle ride

Amit Joki

yeah got it mate @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

17:11

I do ski sometimes but cross country, not from hills

So no need for a helmet, @AmitJoki

Amit Joki

ok guys! Have to go

CopperKettle

Okay, see ya!

Damkerng T.

See you!

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English Language Learners