English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

00:00

If Beowulf were a word, it would fit that question in every aspect!

Anonymous

Is Beowulf not a word?

Damkerng T.

It's more like a name, I think!

Anonymous

I think names count as words (although some are made up of multiple words)

Anonymous

In this case, Beowulf is a name, made up of a single proper noun, Beowulf

Anonymous

A proper noun is a kind of noun, which is in turn a kind of word

user4550

00:13

yeah, solomon is a wise man

he is my solomon

Damkerng T.

00:25

@snailboat I think I misunderstood the term live action. The animation used motion capture, though. Angelina Jolie was Grendel's mother, Antony Hopkins Hrothgar, John Malkovich was Unferth. A strange thing about this animation is that I like its sounds more than its animation!

Anonymous

Oh, so it was an animation?

Damkerng T.

Yes! They tried to make all human characters look as human-like as possible.

In that way, it's similar to Final Fantasy (The Spirit Within), but the setting is historic and it's very for-men.

Anonymous

Oh, I haven't seen that one either

Anonymous

I like the phrasing "very for-men". It's funny. :-)

Damkerng T.

00:41

I tried to come up with a few choices (macho, male, masculine) and ended up with for-men!

user4550

00:56

@DamkerngT. How do you italicize and add other embellishments to the text in chat rooms?

Damkerng T.

Example: **bold**, *italic*, ---crossed---

Example: bold, italic, ~~crossed~~

user4550

I hate "bold" Mike

Doesn't work...

Where is the manual for this thing?

Damkerng T.

Use asterisks, not quotes.

user4550

I hate Mike, not you.

Damkerng T.

It's here: chat.stackexchange.com/faq

user4550

01:03

I hate Mike, not you.

I hate ~~you~~.

How can I permalink a word?

Damkerng T.

You mean links, I think. The same way you write links on the main.

user4550

Words are highlighted blue.

Damkerng T.

The FAQ page should cover it.

user4550

Can't find it.

Damkerng T.

Did you find the FAQ page? -- chat.stackexchange.com/faq

user4550

01:11

Yeah

Could you kindly link me to the page?

Damkerng T.

I just did, above. It's here --> chat.stackexchange.com/faq

When you are on the page, look under the section "How do I format my messages?".

user4550

Click here.

Aha! Thanks!

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

user4550

@StoneyB Hello. I'd like to apologize.

Have I been rude to you?

StoneyB

@snailboat Actually the most popular theory is Henry Sweet's suggestion that Beowulf is made up of two common nouns, ModE bee and wolf, meaning "bee-enemy" or "bee-hunter", a kenning for bear.

@user4550 For what?

Anonymous

01:22

@StoneyB Oh, but that's what it was, not what it is.

user4550

Because you don't reply to me at all---here or elsewhere.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I finally read the question itself.

Anonymous

I think we had a very similar question before.

Anonymous

I feel like sticking a bounty on it, but the system is making me wait two days, I think.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I thought so, but than is not very useful as a search word.

Anonymous

01:23

I'll link it here:

StoneyB

@snailboat But as far as I know the hero of the poem is the only one who has borne that name - and certainly in his case it still has that meaning.

Anonymous

2

Q: one sentence from the article on history

Without "normalizing" the Great Purge or denying its unprecedented character and still unexplained origins, we are now in a position to view it in a broader historical perspective than was possible earlier; perceiving more clearly its place in the larger patterns of Russian and world history. Wi...

grammar

Anonymous

Let's see if I can find the older question

user4550

@StoneyB

StoneyB

@user4550 I must apologize to you, then. I try to answer everybody who addresses me, but sometimes things in comments get overlooked, especially if I get pinged after I go to bed.

Anonymous

01:28

I was thinking of this question:

Anonymous

3

Q: Where is the subject in "[...] weaker than would otherwise have been the case"?

Where is the subject in the following dependent clause? [...] Germany adopted a much weaker currency than would otherwise have been the case [...] (taken from BBC News) Is "the case" the subject? I don't think so. Imagine I re-write the sentence as: Germany adopted a much weaker currenc...

grammar subject

Anonymous

I have a mental note to come back to that question someday. Not a very good mental note―not a mental URL or anything, just a vague recollection along the lines of "There was that one question about something at one point, . . ."

Anonymous

Unfortunately, I've got a whole mental filing cabinet of those

Damkerng T.

Hee

user4550

I see. Now I am relieved. @StoneyB

Anonymous

01:30

I still like that takeout question

StoneyB

@snailboat I loved that one!

Anonymous

I'm still not convinced it's a noun, but I am now convinced that I need to think about it harder :-)

Damkerng T.

nods -- I like that they added take-out as adj. to the latest edition of OED.

Anonymous

One commenter compared it to "I ordered it as takeout", which doesn't exist in my idiolect

StoneyB

I started to write a tongue-in-cheek answer proving that takeout is an intransitive preposition, but decided that would be an unnecessary burden on learners.

Anonymous

01:33

Hee.

Damkerng T.

Oh, you haven't probably seen the latest answer: ell.stackexchange.com/a/40371/3281

Anonymous

People are probably more comfortable with calling those thingies adverbs, still.

Anonymous

"I ordered it for takeout" does exist in my idiolect, though

StoneyB

My argument was basically that since adverb is the traditional trash-can category and preposition is the H&P trash-can category, takeout must be a preposition.

Anonymous

Nice argument!

Anonymous

01:36

Particle is often accused of being the wastebasket category in modern grammars

StoneyB

It is; but it's too explicitly a wastebasket category to be any fun!

Damkerng T.

I think I have to excuse myself. Good night, everyone!

Anonymous

Rest well!

StoneyB

Sleep tight!

Damkerng T.

09:26

> She looked enviously at roommates, peacefully asleep with their stomachs full.

Interesting!

I didn't see anything wrong with it in the first pass! And yet, the error is there.

Hmm... It's not really wrong, I think.

> I glanced through books, staying peacefully on my shelf for who knows how long.

A little odd sentence (I made).

user116848

10:04

Hello!

Damkerng T.

A spooky face!

user116848

Oh, not aaggain! :D

Damkerng T.

Ah, that sounds like it wasn't the first time. :-)

user116848

Yeah, yesterday Jasper commented :-)

user116848

But he is a good person :)

user116848

10:11

I changed it because, well, I have a habit of changing avatars!

user116848

I'll change it to yin yang again around new year I guess!

user116848

Maybe!

Damkerng T.

In Japan, trying to make robots resembling human more is an ongoing thing. They'd try even make robots able to express facial expression. And they usually do a simple spook test when they had a new humanoid robot.

The test is simple. Introduce the robot to kids, and have the robot make some face. :P

The result of the test is instantaneous!

user116848

Oh, I was trying to change it to a robot avatar. How is this robot?

user116848

user116848

10:16

There are many on the internet. It looks good too.

Damkerng T.

Very cool! Wait, maybe a little too cool. :-)

user116848

Haha!

Damkerng T.

Having that kind of face can give the impression of emotionless.

user116848

Yeah, like a Terminator

Damkerng T.

nods

user116848

10:17

Heh

user116848

I think it will be nice to have two robots here :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL!

user116848

Mine temporary though. I change it a lot.

Damkerng T.

Then, our greeting might be something like: How do you function today?

user116848

Maybe :-)

user116848

10:19

So, maybe you will feel like there are many like you here.

Damkerng T.

Hahaha!

Oh, have you ever watched Bananas in Pajamas?

user116848

What? No :-)

user116848

What is it?

Damkerng T.

Banana One: "Hello, Banana Two" -- Banana Two: "Hello, Banana One!"

It's a TV show. You will find it if you google for it. :D

user116848

I have watched annoying orange on the youtube. It is annoying and fun at the same time.

Damkerng T.

10:22

►

user116848

It looks goofy.

user116848

:-)

Damkerng T.

It's for children, but it can be fun, too. :D

"B2, that was very exciting!" "Very, very exciting B1."

user116848

They are 'bananas' after all :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

user116848

10:32

I like the robot girl from Terminator 3. She was good.

Damkerng T.

nods

user116848

I enjoyed watching The Sarah Connor Chronicles but then it got cancelled.

user116848

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (sometimes abbreviated as Terminator: TSCC or simply TSCC) is an American science fiction television series that aired on Fox. The show was produced by 20th Century Fox Television, Warner Bros. Television, and C2 Pictures (C2 Pictures was replaced by The Halcyon Company in season two). It is a spin-off from the Terminator series of films. It revolves around the lives of the fictional characters Sarah and John Connor, following the events of Terminator 2: Judgment Day (despite being credited as a prequel to the 2003 sequel Terminator: Rise of the Machines...

user116848

It had totally different cast from the movie.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I remember the first two seasons.

user116848

10:38

It got very boring towards the end.

user116848

Maybe that's why it got cancelled.

Damkerng T.

I think it's common that they will check the rating all the time.

That's how we lost some good shows.

user116848

Because in that series there was nothing much to show except pissed off robots :-)

user116848

Some episodes were fun though.

Damkerng T.

It could have been done better, imo. I'm not saying that it was bad or anything, though.

user116848

10:40

True.

Damkerng T.

Scriptwriting is not as easy as one might think.

user116848

nods

user116848

I'll be back...

user116848

See you soon!

Damkerng T.

CU!

Damkerng T.

11:22

4

A: Should I say "She is in the park or She is at the park"?

I can't justify this, but to me, in subtly connotes a much larger park than at. A person might be at the city park, but in a national park.

(I'm a native speaker of American English.) — Kevin Krumwiede 10 hours ago

What made him write that is curious.

@CopperKettle Hello! -- As you already know, get has several meanings.

CopperKettle

Hi! @DamkerngT.! Good evening!

An interesting point made by @J.R.

Damkerng T.

It can mean "to do something" or "become something", among other things.

He was caught. He got caught. He became caught (in something).

Hmm... Probably not quite easy to explain. But I think J.R. pointed it out really well.

They are words I've never learned.

Or if I've learned, I didn't know that I was learning it.

CopperKettle

I only remembered that got is more informal and less pre-planned, less will-driven on part of the object

Damkerng T.

It is informal.

CopperKettle

So I wrote in my answer

Damkerng T.

11:36

nods

CopperKettle

I've opened Quirk et al. and will see what they have to say about this (0:

Damkerng T.

They must have some good answers in there.

CopperKettle

Yes, there're lots of examples there

Damkerng T.

One thing I notice often enough is learners usually mix implications with literal meanings.

Though people do that all the time, I think.

Simple words are really hard.

Some English simple words: be, do (also done), make, get, feel, know, think

CopperKettle

Yes, they have more forms and participate in a variety of phrasal verbs

Damkerng T.

11:47

Phrasal verbs usually are combinations of two simple things! verb + preposition

CopperKettle

Quirk et al write that "The chair was broken" is ambiguous but "The chair got broken". Nice, chimes in with @J.R.'s comments

Damkerng T.

nods

I want it. I want to get it done. Will it get done by me? I do it. It got done halfway now. I do it some more. Will it be done? I keep doing it. Finally, I got it done. It got done. It was done. It is done, and I succeed. — Damkerng T. 32 mins ago

I made it up to see if anyone will comment on that.

Someone might!

We can even complicate it further, with something like: I'm getting it done

CopperKettle

You migh take it apart yourself in a separate answer post. (0:

Damkerng T.

I just got my instinct, so it won't be a good definitive answer.

Yours is more like one. :-)

CopperKettle

Thanks! (0:

If it gets downvoted, I could (or can?) always scrap it.

Damkerng T.

11:52

True!

Damkerng T.

12:04

> Notice that the ever part of these sentences is optional, but it increases the exclamative effect.
Did I ever! Boy, was he hot under the collar!
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/40457/3281

I can't imagine "Did I!" in American accents. (But it's quite passable in British accents.)

CopperKettle

12:43

I'm not accent-savvy.. I guess if said with emphasis, "Did I!" will do the job.

user116848

13:46

I like this answer:

user116848

6

A: Should I say "She is in the park or She is at the park"?

Both are equally correct, and have nearly the same meaning. In would mean physically within the bounds of the park, while at is slightly less precise, because she might be inside the park, or perhaps just outside the gates.

user116848

I gave it +1.

user116848

I would say the same thing if someone asked me that question.

Damkerng T.

Context is important.

I can't say for sure that I can use it correctly every time.

user116848

Yeah, same here.

user116848

13:55

I write it wrong often I guess. Too much to think.

Damkerng T.

> Where is she? She's at the park. (Okay)
Where is she? She's at the woods. (Probably not okay)

> Where are you? I'm in the park. (Okay)
Where are you? I'm at the park. (Probably okay)

> What are you doing? I'm walking in the park. (Probably okay)
What are you doing? I'm walking at the park. (Possibly okay)

user116848

True. Like one answerer says we often follow what is usually said in that situation.

user116848

Reading a lot also helps this.

Damkerng T.

nods

user116848

So, we say all that without thinking too much.

Damkerng T.

14:00

When we don't think too much, chances are, our first language will interfere, and we will mess it up.

That's the big difference between native and non-native speakers, at any levels of fluency.

However, real bi-lingual people can think closer to native speakers, much closer, than learners.

And as far as I know, grammar can't fix this, I mean if we want to think completely like native speakers.

user116848

nods

Damkerng T.

But grammar helps a lot.

user116848

That is a good point. It is difficult to be perfect in grammar.

Damkerng T.

I think someone's grammar can be perfect, or let's just say perfect enough. However, there are a lot of things beyond grammar.

Hearing the word grammar, us learners usually think of "sentences". That's already very limited.

And yet, it's not easy to master it.

user116848

Yep, even natives say things that look ungrammatical to us sometimes, but there are choices too in how we say things.

user116848

14:11

Hard and fast rule about everything can be too much to learn.

Damkerng T.

Yes. They usually pick the right ones, too.

user116848

nods -- That is natural for them.

user116848

Like if someone who is learning Urdu might say to me that I am saying xyz ungrammatical in Urdu. I'll say "No" because that is how we say it, and that there can be other ways too to say the same thing.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Exactly!

I found a strange sentence today!

> It seemed like every professor worth his salt had either started his own company or was sitting on the boards of several biotech firms.

user116848

'Worth the salt' is a nice phrase. I don't see it often.

user116848

14:24

What does it mean?

Damkerng T.

Yup. But my problem is not about that idiom.

I read it as "worth whatever people think they're worth".

user116848

'Worth his caliber' I'd say because that looks apropos to the context.

user116848

I could be wrong.

Damkerng T.

worth your salt: "respected by other people because you do your job well"

user116848

Here: idioms.thefreedictionary.com/worth+salt

user116848

14:27

Jinx! :-)

user116848

I also find this: urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Worth%20his%20salt

Damkerng T.

Salt was expensive, then.

user116848

In the past?

Damkerng T.

What does "worth his caliber" mean?

user116848

Really?

Damkerng T.

14:29

@Arrowfar Should be. I remember than when I was really young salt from the sea was uncommon.

user116848

@DamkerngT. It is a small phrase that came to my mind that whatever his caliber (standard) is, it is appropriate for that.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's not an idiom.

user116848

No

user116848

Just something from the top off my head :-)

user116848

But the real idiom is a good knowledge for me.

Damkerng T.

14:32

It's a strange phrase. It sounds a bit odd.

user116848

> In the roman days, soldiers were payed in salt as it was a high commodity used to preserve meat and many other functions. If a soldier wasn't good he wasn't payed.

user116848

Nice stuff.

Damkerng T.

The use of either or up there is a little strange for me.

> X had either started his own company or was sitting on the boards of Zs.

But probably it's the way people do it.

user116848

Yeah, it looks like the speaker doesn't know that themselves.

Damkerng T.

The either looks curious sitting between had and started when it's followed by or was sitting. :-)

user116848

14:37

How should I say it correctly:

user116848

> Yeah, it looks like the speaker doesn't know that themselves.

user116848

or

user116848

> Yeah, it looks like the speaker don't know that themselves.

Damkerng T.

Between the two, I would pick the first.

user116848

I see.

user116848

14:38

And what is your own version?

Damkerng T.

I think it's likely that I will leave themselves out, and I may change the tense.

user116848

I was simply going for: "Yeah, it looks like the speaker doesn't know that himself."

user116848

I those situations I write "he" too sometimes.

Damkerng T.

"Right. It looks like the writer didn't know that."

user116848

That too :-)

user116848

14:40

@DamkerngT. Thanks!

Damkerng T.

Just my normal phrasing. I didn't try to suggest that other versions are wrong or anything.

user116848

Yeah

user116848

17:16

@snailboat Hi snail.How are you?

Anonymous

Hello!

user116848

I have a grammar question.

Anonymous

I may or may not know the answer!

user116848

I know :-)

Anonymous

That was my way of saying "Shoot!"

user116848

17:17

What do you say about this:

user116848

3 hours ago, by Arrowfar

How should I say it correctly:

Anonymous

Don't is nonstandard.

user116848

I see. So themselves plus the speaker look okay?

user116848

I know we can erase 'themselves' from the sentence too.

Anonymous

Some speakers prefer themself, but that too is nonstandard

user116848

17:20

But what if we don't.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar That's how you can tell it's being used as an emphatic pronoun rather than a reflexive pronoun

Anonymous

Themselves is okay.

user116848

Ah, I see

user116848

@snailboat Did you like my story yesterday? :p

user116848

Or was it so-so? :)

Anonymous

17:22

About themself, see: ling.upenn.edu/~joelcw/papers/Wallenberg_PLC.pdf

Anonymous

@Arrowfar I haven't read it yet

user116848

@snailboat Thanks!

user116848

We don't see 'themself', 'ourself' very often.

user116848

Nice article.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar That's true. But the number of speakers who prefer them is likely to continue to rise, and it may eventually become part of the standard language.

user116848

17:27

Yes, it will -- nods

Damkerng T.

Murat, these questions are better asked on the English Language Learners site, where you already have an account. That site is specifically designed to help people with basic questions of English. This one is not. I'm going to vote to close this question. But before I do that: in short, using either always indicates an exclusive choice where you can't have both. You can't use "either" with "and". Using or alone (without either), is ambiguous, and whether it means "inclusive or" or "exclusive or" must be derived from context; grammar alone can't tell you. Hence we have "either — Dan Bron 54 mins ago

Somehow I find the phrase "basic questions of English" somewhat disturbing!

~

> The sisters in the photograph were standing on either side of their dad.

> On either side of their dad ___ the sisters standing.

That's how basic either is. :P

Anonymous

"I love sightseeing!" "Oh, really? Have you ever gone to see either the Eiffel tower or Tokyo Tower?" "I've been to both, actually!"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Nice example!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't understand your underliney example.

Anonymous

> On either side of their dad were the sisters standing.　←　Do we like this word order?

Damkerng T.

17:39

That's the problem!

Anonymous

Oh, is it from the question?

Anonymous

It's a possible but rather strange sentence.

Damkerng T.

Yes, but the OP doesn't ask what I asked.

Anonymous

If we shuffled the words around a bit, we'd get a more normal word order :-)

Anonymous

I haven't read the OP's question.

Anonymous

17:40

Oh, it was migrated!

Damkerng T.

I think the OP read about either or in their grammar book, found some more examples, and got confused.

Anonymous

Dan Bron's right that there's a restriction against either and and, but of course the words do appear in close proximity, so maybe that rule could be stated more specifically

Anonymous

Of course, sentences like "Applications are welcomed from people of either sex and any age." are fine (Macmillan Dictionary)

Anonymous

> You can have either the £15 cotton top and the £17 cotton-and-polyester blouse OR ...

Damkerng T.

The answers and comments are right in general. I was just being grumpy about calling ELL basic a little. :/

Anonymous

17:42

Oh, sure.

Anonymous

I understood that sentiment when you expressed it

Anonymous

I just got distracted with the question of language :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. :-)

Anonymous

I think sometimes we express things that make sense in context but aren't really stated precisely, so if taken literally, appear to be false

Anonymous

So then sometimes we can come up with more precise ways of stating them

Anonymous

17:44

Say

Anonymous

Is Dan Bron's comment cut off?

Anonymous

It looks like it's incomplete.

Anonymous

Murat, these questions are better asked on the English Language Learners site, where you already have an account. That site is specifically designed to help people with basic questions of English. This one is not. I'm going to vote to close this question. But before I do that: in short, using either always indicates an exclusive choice where you can't have both. You can't use "either" with "and". Using or alone (without either), is ambiguous, and whether it means "inclusive or" or "exclusive or" must be derived from context; grammar alone can't tell you. Hence we have "either — Dan Bron 1 hour ago

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure. It was like that the first time I saw it here on ELL.

Anonymous

I wonder if they typed up a longer comment and then pasted it into the comment box and lost the rest.

Anonymous

17:45

That would be sad. I hate when I lose stuff like that.

Damkerng T.

I remember FF mentioned yesterday that his comment was gone when a question was migrated to ELL.

Anonymous

Comments always disappear if they give a URL to the target site of a migration

Damkerng T.

Probably it's lost in migration. :D

Anonymous

The system automatically deletes them.

Anonymous

Moderators sometimes delete other comments before migrating, too.

Damkerng T.

17:47

Ahh... If that's possible, it makes sense now.

Anonymous

Yes, the system automatically deletes comments in several situations

Anonymous

Another is when you post a link to a duplicate and the question is closed as a duplicate of the question you've linked

Anonymous

I wish people wouldn't pretend to be linguists on the internet.

Anonymous

I think it's fine for anyone to discuss linguistics, of course

user116848

Strangely I can't find any example on the Google that says something like: "It is done by the speaker (singular) themselves"

Anonymous

17:50

But people might be misled by misinformation when it's accompanied by a claim to be an authority

Anonymous

As for David Crystal's Encyclopedia - I full heartedly agree that it is a great book - referred to many a time whilst doing my MA in Linguistics at the University of St Andrews. — Dave Gordon 2 hours ago

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar What if's "It was done" instead?

Anonymous

If they have a master's in linguistics, they should really know some of the things a first year student would learn

user116848

@DamkerngT. That is also possible.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that answer!

user116848

17:52

But I am talking about 'singular' + 'themselves'

user116848

It looked odd when I wrote.

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar If I try to gauge it, I think using past tense is more likely, and perhaps most people would know who the speaker is when saying that.

user116848

okay.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar You can always rephrase it if you're unhappy with it

user116848

yeah

Anonymous

17:55

> There's obviously no simple answer. The home, the neighborhood and the child themselves can all be very different.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess that a lot of comments under that answer were removed.

user116848

I found one too: books.google.com.pk/…

user116848

Can you tell me how can I 'select' text from the Google books?

Anonymous

No, I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question.

user116848

I don't seem to 'select' any text there.

user116848

17:57

If I have to copy paste it here I have to type it all.

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar If it's a short text, I will try to rewrite the search terms and copy the text from the result page directly.

user116848

okay

Anonymous

Typing one sentence shouldn't be too hard on you.

Damkerng T.

That trick doesn't work well for texts longer than one or two sentences. Usually, I end up typing everything myself anyway.

user116848

I see.

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