English Language Learners

user116848

19:00

Ah :-)

CopperKettle

In my hometown, the sun technically goes beyond the horizon at 14:40 today

wunderground.com/weather-forecast/zmw:00000.1.23657

But in summers, it stays in the sky almost the whole day

and the whole night

user116848

Here sunset and sunrise on the ocean looks very amazing. I went once :-)

CopperKettle

Great (0:

I only saw sunsets and sunrises on the Black Sea

user116848

Ah :)

user116848

Yeah, that is near to you.

CopperKettle

19:04

The Kara Sea was near to me in Siberia, but nobody goes there on a holiday for some reason (0:

Probably because there are no sunsets there in the summer, and no sunrises in the winter. (0:

user116848

Oh. But that must freeze in winter I guess.

user116848

In the north of our country many lakes freeze in winters.

CopperKettle

Our ponds and lakes are now frozen solid, you can (could?) walk on 'em, ride on 'em, fish from them

user116848

So, people can skate on the lakes.

user116848

@CopperKettle Nice!

CopperKettle

19:07

But nobody skates on 'em here, because they're bumpy and snowed-over

We have open-air skating-rinks

And it's hard to ride on a bicycle on a lake now, unless it's a "fat-bike"

user116848

That sounds like fun.

Anonymous

A fat-bike?

CopperKettle

Fatbike

A fatbike is a bicycle with over-sized tires, typically 3.7" or larger and rims wider than 44mm, that are designed for riding on soft unstable terrain such as snow and sand. These bikes are built around frames with large forks and stays to accommodate the wide rims required to fit these tires. == Usage == Fatbikes were invented for winter trail riding and racing in sub-arctic Alaska and simultaneously, for touring the deserts of New Mexico. Their use includes snow, sand, desert, bogs and mud as well as riding what is considered normal mountain biking. == History == The original fatbike...

Yes, they are becoming very popular but are still expensive

Anonymous

Neat!

CopperKettle

Yep, a great idea (0:

user116848

19:09

Great bike!

Anonymous

Wow, they look like car tires!

CopperKettle

(0:

e1.ru/talk/forum/…

a local guy riding a fitbike on a lake

user116848

That is what I call cool! :D

user116848

@CopperKettle Have you ever ridden it?

user116848

Those look like jeep tires!

CopperKettle

19:17

No, I have a usual bicycle..

user116848

4WD bike lol

user116848

I had the usual one too.

user116848

I didn't have gears in them lol

CopperKettle

For the winter I equipped it with cleated tires

user116848

Just a brake :-)

CopperKettle

19:18

(0:

user116848

I see :-)

user116848

There is a bike SE site too. Once I went there in chat and the first question someone asked me was: "Do you ride?" :-)

user116848

I didn't know what to say.

user116848

I went there because I was lurking around :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

user116848

19:21

Hehe!

CopperKettle

Here's from our ride on January 1st this year:
http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=524024&pic=9faf4b470eeb237f9e76fffd59c26bf9&page=0#2top

user116848

Nice!

CopperKettle

It's part of an "ice city" in the center of the town

Ice sculptures

user116848

Yeah, those look awesome.

CopperKettle

But Newton, who had grasped all space was more / Serene. To him it seemed that he'd but played / With a few shells and pebbles on the shore / Of that profundity he had not made. --- I don't understand the last line.

poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/browse/152/1#!/20601552

I probably should ask a question at ELL

Damkerng T.

19:34

It sounds like a poem about Sir Isaac Newton.

user116848

I think it means:

user116848

"The Newton hadn't given much deep thought to the idea."

CopperKettle

The poem compares Newtown's view of the world with that of Alexander the Great.

user116848

Because 'profundity' means:
1. Great depth. 2. Depth of intellect, feeling, or meaning.

CopperKettle

@Arrowfar: I think it means something like that too, but why I cannot explain.

user116848

19:36

@CopperKettle Do you have to write a summary on it?

CopperKettle

I mean, "He had not made what of profundity?"

user116848

Yeah, that would be tough.

CopperKettle

No, I'm just curious

user116848

Ah, I see.

StoneyB

@CopperKettle The contrast between Newton and Alexander is that Alexander thought he had conquered the entire world, because he did not know that 'Cathay' (China) still lay, free, beyond his conquest; but Newton, who had 'conquered' all 'known space', knew that he had reached only the 'shore of that profundity', of that great (physical and intellectual) deepness, that figurative 'ocean' which is God's creation, not Newton's.

Newton, unlike Alexander, knew how vast his ignorance was.

CopperKettle

19:49

Oh!

Of that "Profundity" (a huge world) which he had not made (It was made by God)

And I thought the sense was "he made no big deal (=profundity) of this fact". Thank you, @StoneyB!

It's still Cathay in Russian (КИТАЙ), so that was no problem

It's the shore of the profundity. Great.

user116848

20:24

I wrote mine:

user116848

in The Overlook Hotel, 1 min ago, by Arrowfar

@MattЭллен @KitFox Moral Courage

user116848

Sadly no one was there :(

user116848

I did it! Yay!

user116848

It is difficult to remember all those punctuations in 10 mins.

user116848

I'll get used to it. That's why I always go there.

Anonymous

20:55

@Arrowfar If it's easier for you to write without worrying too much about punctuation, then you can do it that way (and fix the punctuation later)

Anonymous

There's no rules in writing―you just do whatever works for you

user116848

@snailboat Hi back snail! :-)

Anonymous

Hello again!

user116848

Hehe!

user116848

Good suggestion btw!

user116848

20:57

I was trying to fix them all so I took almost fifteen minutes.

user116848

No one can be perfect in under ten minutes.

user116848

21:13

Okay 2:13 AM here. Time to get some sleepy sleepy.

user116848

Bye all!

user116848

See ya!

Damkerng T.

Ah, see you!

Anonymous

21:57

Colloquial language is so interesting. People never stop coming up with new stuff.

Anonymous

The phrase "not the boss of X" has been around for a while

Anonymous

I saw an amusing example today in private correspondence, but I can't quote it

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure I've really heard it, but it sounds quite okay.

Anonymous

But it had the same structure as "I'm not the boss of who gets to eat candy"

Anonymous

Which to me was an interesting use of the phrase

Anonymous

21:59

@DamkerngT. I've heard "You're not the boss of me" quite a few times

Anonymous

The phrase has always been interesting to me, because without this as a fixed phrase, the natural English expression would be "You're not my boss"

Damkerng T.

Ahh, I heard the reverse of it, and it's a bit rude, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But variations on the phrase aren't always rude. I think it depends on context

Damkerng T.

"You're not my boss" --> "I'm not your b----"

Anonymous

Eep

Damkerng T.

22:00

I heard that a lot on TV.

Anonymous

I have no mental connection between those phrases

Damkerng T.

I was stunned a bit when I heard it the first time!

Anonymous

Well, people will say what people will say.

Damkerng T.

I think "You're not the boss of me" can sound even a little archaic!

I'm not sure if I overstated it when I wrote "She runs faster than he can run *fast, is ungrammatical."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. To me it sounds hip and modern.

Anonymous

22:05

@DamkerngT. It does seem ungrammatical.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, it's like fashion, I think. Sometimes it comes back!

Anonymous

Well, it's an idiom.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Thanks for the confirmation.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Comparative constructions in English are so hard to accurately describe

Anonymous

And I've never been 100% satisfied with the descriptions I've read (but I've never 100% internalized them, either!)

Damkerng T.

22:07

I just described it unorthodoxically.

Anonymous

I think you could say grammatically "She runs faster than ~~how fast~~ he can run"

Damkerng T.

Here is an unorthodox way I use to understand this kind of structure. Because it's unorthodox, I'll post it here rather than as an answer. The basic idea is when using than, we need to delete the shared part. For example, "She runs [fast]. He can run [less fast]." would become "She runs faster than he can run." The less fast must be deleted. In other words, "She runs faster than he can run *fast," is ungrammatical. (We can also include run into the shared part and get: She runs faster than he can.) — Damkerng T. 14 mins ago

Anonymous

Comparative constructions are one of the many corners of English linguistics where I fear to tread

Anonymous

Comparative constructions in Japanese are comparatively simple.

Anonymous

(But counterintuitive for English speakers, who expect them to work like English in terms of semantics.)

Damkerng T.

22:08

Hmm... That makes me curious!

I have at least two sets of grammar, maybe it'll be less counterintuitive for me.

Anonymous

Well, there's a whole set of comparative constructions.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Most of them are relatively simple on their own.

Anonymous

A couple parts are counterintuitive:

Anonymous

When you're comparing alternatives and you use the basic form of an adjective, "this one is tall", you're saying "this one is MORE tall"

Anonymous

22:10

And when you give a measure expression, like if you say (literally) "this one is 3 feet tall", the actual meaning is "this one is 3 feet TALLER"

Damkerng T.

Oh! And there is nothing to suggest the -ER part!?

Anonymous

Well, in Japanese, there's より, which is like than

Anonymous

But you don't need より for comparative meaning

Anonymous

You just have to be comparing two alternatives, one of which can be implicit

Damkerng T.

Oh! That sounds like something potentially counterintuitive.

Anonymous

22:12

But there's always some sign that you're comparing alternatives

Anonymous

Actually, Japanese speakers love to compare alternatives

Anonymous

For example, in English, we might say "You should go" using a modal auxiliary, where in Japanese you might say いったほうがいい

Anonymous

Where ほう is a noun literally meaning 'one way/direction' or 'one side'

Anonymous

You often compare two different ほう and say one of them is いい :-)

Anonymous

いい is 'good'

Anonymous

22:14

So here, there's an implicit alternative (going is better than not going)

Anonymous

You end up comparing alternatives in Japanese a lot of the time when you wouldn't do so in English :-)

Damkerng T.

No より needed!

(Mixing two languages together makes me feel a little odd!)

Anonymous

Yeah, you aren't even mentioning the other alternative.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In this case, you're only mentioning より, not using it

Anonymous

What I find to be weird is when you're actually つかっている two げんご

Anonymous

22:17

It's kind of へん！

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

What's really おもしろい is when people start taking affixes from one language and つかうing them in another :-)

Damkerng T.

What do they call it, this kind of thing? Switching?

Anonymous

"I was just はしるing to the store"

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

22:19

When you mix them in a single sentence like this? The only term I know is "being silly"! But I know the term you mean―code switching

Anonymous

There's also Mark Liberman's coinage, univocal heteroglossia :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks! For all the three terms!

Anonymous

Hmm, maybe I should use spaces since I'm writing in all kana

Anonymous

いった　ほう　が　いい

Anonymous

Or, to give an actual example for our earlier discussion:

Anonymous

22:21

> この　たな　は　２メートル　たかい

Anonymous

"This shelf is two meters TALLER"

Anonymous

(Not: "This shelf is two meters TALL")

Anonymous

This confuses English speakers :-)

Damkerng T.

How can I say "This shelf is two meters tall"?

Anonymous

Well, do you know that たかい is an adjective, 'tall'?

Damkerng T.

22:23

You just told me. :-)

Anonymous

Adjectives have a derivational suffix ～さ, which is like English -ness

Anonymous

So たかさ is 'height' (lit. 'tallness')

Anonymous

And that makes a noun.

Anonymous

So then you can say たな　の　たかさ

Anonymous

"the shelf's height"

Anonymous

22:24

And then you can put it into a complete sentence: この　たな　の　たかさ　は　２メートル　だ

Damkerng T.

たな　の　たかさは　２メートル!

Anonymous

Yes!

Anonymous

Your sentence works too, I was just trying to make it more like our earlier example :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh! It's the arrangement!

Anonymous

The だ is omitted from your example (or at least, people often analyze it that way)

Anonymous

22:25

Now you're saying what the height is. The height is 2 meters.

Anonymous

But when you combine a measure expression with a predicate adjective, you don't generally get that meaning.

Anonymous

Now,

Anonymous

> この　たな　は　２メートル　たかい

Anonymous

We could view this as ellipsis of a comparative phrase:

Anonymous

> この　たな　は　（あの　たな　より）　２メートル　たかい

Anonymous

22:26

"This shelf is two meters TALLER (than that shelf)"

Anonymous

There we have より 'than' in the ellipted phrase

Anonymous

But there's no morpheme corresponding to -er or more in the Japanese

Anonymous

That is what I think people find tricky

Damkerng T.

I think this structure never gets through translation into Thai on TV or novels.

Anonymous

Ahh

Damkerng T.

22:28

(I was hoping that I'd be able to relate the structure to those translations I've heard.)

Anonymous

Are comparatives in Thai any more similar to Japanese than English?

Damkerng T.

I think it's more like English.

Anonymous

Japanese does have adverbs corresponding to more and most

Damkerng T.

But the word order is different and we don't have such thing as -er or -est.

Anonymous

Specifically, もっと and いちばん

Anonymous

22:29

(The later is literally from a phrase meaning 'number one', but it's been lexicalized as an adverb)

Anonymous

You can make a comparative or superlative statement (which is more X / the most X out of these 2+ items?) in Japanese by first defining a domain (marked with で) and then by using an adjective (possibly with an adverb like いちばん)

Anonymous

There's some variation allowed

Anonymous

But if you were to ask (literally) "Out of these two things, which is tall?" you'd mean "which is taller?"

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So there's no -er there either

Anonymous

22:32

Does Thai have a structure similar to that one?

Damkerng T.

I think Thai mainly uses something (กว่า) which has dual meaning of than and -er at the same time.

Anonymous

Ahh

Damkerng T.

So, [John-good-than-Jame] is perfectly fine in Thai. (We don't use be, either.)

Anonymous

That makes sense, given my mental concept of Thai grammar

Anonymous

Which is admittedly more than a little bit shaky :-)

Anonymous

22:34

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, of course, adjectives can serve as predicates without auxiliary be supporting them

Anonymous

In English, we need be because we need our sentences to have tense, and adjectives don't bear tense

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Japanese sentences are tensed, too, but adjectives carry tense directly

Anonymous

So you have たかい (present) and たかかった (past)

Anonymous

But in Japanese, that's actually a fusion with an older copula verb

Anonymous

22:36

So in terms of etymology, it did have something like be there...

Anonymous

And it's still possible to use a periphrastic construction with a be verb (specifically, ある)

Anonymous

Under limited circumstances

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So I guess Japanese isn't really like Thai in that respect, though it's not really like English, either

Anonymous

Maybe it's in between :-)

Damkerng T.

22:37

Possibly! It sounds like it's so!

Anonymous

There are some people who insist on saying たかい means 'is tall' rather than just 'tall'

Anonymous

And these people would suggest Japanese doesn't have real adjectives, just a big class of stative verbs

Anonymous

Always seems pretty counterintuitive to think of it that way . . .

user4550

Hi

Damkerng T.

Hi

user4550

22:43

I found this sentence on Google. Is this correct>

Lost my phone for 7 hours today and it was the most stressed I've felt since high school.

it was the most stressed..part

Damkerng T.

Probably a typo.

Hmm...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What do you think it's a typo for?

user4550

I found this as well.

He lectured me for 4 hours straight last night, and that was the most stressed I've felt in a very long time.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's why I Hmm... :-)

Anonymous

Well, what do you think is wrong with it?

user4550

22:46

The subject "it" is like the situation? @snailboat

Anonymous

Oh, good question.

Anonymous

Seems like a reasonable interpretation.

user4550

So, this sentence structure is legitimate and grammatical?

Anonymous

Both halves of the sentence seem okay, and although I'd personally choose not to join them like that, I think the sentence is grammatical

Anonymous

I wouldn't've guessed that it was what you wondering about

Anonymous

22:49

I didn't know until you said so

Anonymous

It seems unremarkable.

Damkerng T.

I think it might be problematic from the traditional point of view.

user4550

So I can say, "Oh good gracious! I was held up in traffic this morning for 2 hours on the way here! It was the most stressed I've felt in quite a while,man!"?

Anonymous

That part of your example seems okay

Anonymous

There's a bit of stylistic clash there, by the way

Anonymous

22:50

Between "Oh good gracious!" and ", man!"

user4550

Oh I see! But the grammar and meaning of the whole sentence is OK?

Damkerng T.

> That answer is two pages long! It was so stressed.

What is it?

Anonymous

I don't see any grammatical errors, but the example as a whole is not entirely idiomatic

user4550

what do you mean, not idiomatic?

Damkerng T.

I think it's the same problem.

Anonymous

22:53

A native speaker wouldn't say it.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I see a problem there!

Anonymous

Answers aren't usually stressed over stuff. They're usually not sentient!

Damkerng T.

That was my point!

Anonymous

But the other sentence doesn't have that problem.

Damkerng T.

re-reading...

user4550

22:55

I was stressed, not the situation. @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Oh, they rephrased I've felt stressed with introductory-it!

Anonymous

The question of what that it represents is a good one

Damkerng T.

The other example rephrased it with that.

> It was so stressed I've felt!

> That was so stressed I've felt!

> That was the most stressed I've felt!

> That was the most stressed I've felt in a very long time.

Anonymous

Someone could ask about this stuff on ELL and get opinions from the ELL Opinion Offering Squad

Damkerng T.

I think it is what that I felt.

Anonymous

23:00

Ah! I forgot we have members of the ELLOOS right here :-)

Damkerng T.

ELLOOS?

Anonymous

ELL Opinion Offering Squad!

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

You've probably never heard of them before.

Anonymous

It's a pretty elusive group.

Damkerng T.

23:02

Am I part of it, by any chance?

(I like to offer opinions, by the way.)

Anonymous

Well, did you just offer an opinion?

Anonymous

Because if so, I think you probably are.

Damkerng T.

I'm just not sure if I'm part of the squad!

Is this squad similar to those sentai rangers?

Anonymous

Well, I've only heard rumors.

Anonymous

You'll probably have to find out for yourself.

Damkerng T.

23:05

Okay, I'm gonna pick yellow!

Anonymous

Hee

Damkerng T.

Yellow Ranger, ready!

Anonymous

I've never really seen any of those sentai shows.

Anonymous

They did air a show called Power Rangers here in the U.S.

Anonymous

Which I think was a heavily edited version of one of the Japanese sentai shows

Damkerng T.

23:07

Oh, I've heard that but I've never seen it.

Anonymous

It was during my rebelling against TV era.

user4550

Not hentai

Anonymous

Right, not hentai

Damkerng T.

sentai means five colors.

user4550

kinky

Damkerng T.

23:08

I don't know why, but the Red Ranger is always the leader of the team.

@snailboat I think you should take red. :-)

Anonymous

google.co.jp/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Wha? Me? :-)

user4550

Wow...so tacky...

Now their artistic taste is in question.

Damkerng T.

1

Q: parsing: he was sure he would leave behind in his community, should he die

Ever since Barry's funeral, Gavin had dwelled, with a sense of deep inadequacy, on the comparatively small gap that [A] he was sure [B] he would leave behind in his community, should he die. Looking at Mary, he wondered whether it would not be better to leave a huge hole in one person's heart....

sentence-construction

It's a gap gap!

4

Q: In the sentence, "I don't know why, but …", is "why" a noun?

I don't know why, but there's something I don't like about that woman. In this sentence, is "why" a noun? If not, what is it? I can understand the meaning, but I am confused about the use of "why".

grammar nouns part-of-speech

One sentence, many possible explanations.

user4550

Both of you, thank you for your insight.

Damkerng T.

23:20

You're welcome, as always.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A noun? Doesn't seem like a great explanation

Anonymous

But I can see someone saying so

Damkerng T.

I'd say that it's a relative adverb, as usual, but it needs ellipsis.

But obviously, some native speakers think of it as nouns. So, they'd use it as if it's really a noun. As a result, the word would naturally and gradually shift toward noun over time.

Anonymous

I haven't seen any such shift

Anonymous

Although there is an unrelated noun use of why

Damkerng T.

23:27

I suspect that a lot of native speakers think this why really is a noun.

Anonymous

I suspect that a lot of native speakers don't really know what a noun is

Damkerng T.

Good point!

Anonymous

If they examined the full range of evidence (the uses of why) they'd probably realize their usage doesn't actually align with the noun analysis

Anonymous

It's easy to come to the wrong conclusion if you look at only one sentence

Damkerng T.

nods -- Until the day people said I don't know why *that I don't like her!

Better keep it imaginary. Hee

Anonymous

23:32

This question appears to be off-topic because it is trolling — FumbleFingers 9 hours ago

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

14

Q: The word for a man who hunts a dangerous mountain cat without prophylactic?

Hello once again special team stack exchange and a usage. I search many hours dictionary for a man goes into woods for hunt dangerous mountain cat or similar enemy despite no protection or prophylactic caution. Maybe he take only small catpalt for kill crow or moose. So when cat comes he catch h...

vocabulary

Damkerng T.

Seems like many people enjoy it.

Anonymous

It was a Hot Network Question!

Anonymous

Those villainous close voters have pulled it from the list! :-)

Damkerng T.

23:36

Somehow the question reminds me of Beowulf!

(the animation)

Anonymous

I'm not familiar with that animation

Damkerng T.

> imdb.com/title/tt0442933

Anonymous

It looks like a live-action movie

Damkerng T.

It was!

Anonymous

Oh!

Damkerng T.

23:37

And a great one at that, I might add.

Anonymous

I think you can only call things "animation" when they're not live action

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

I haven't seen it yet

Damkerng T.

23:57

> Beowulf: We swam for five days, neck and neck. l was conserving my strength for the final stretch when this storm blew up and with it came sea monsters. Again and again, the monsters attacked! Dark things from the sea's depths. l hacked and l lashed at these foul beasts with my sword, spilling their guts into the sea.

("Beowulf!" He yelled out loud in a flashback scene after killing a sea monster.)

Beowulf: Then one of them seized me by its jaws and dragged me to the bottom. l killed the monster with my own blade and I plunged it into its heart.

(edited from script-o-rama)

Transcript for