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12:07
I regret to say that I cannot see how my question can be viewed in such a light. It's better, or should I say, more congenial to your skin and brain, it goes without saying, if you are one whose fondness for English is beyond measure, as in my case, to take root in a country where the language is daily spoken.
People have different goals.
Of course, I didn't, in any way, mean to sound rude. So, I hope you didn't take me amiss.
Oh, no, I didn't take it the wrong way. I just wondered why you thought so.
I mean, I think I've never said that I want to move to the US or anywhere else.
What's your goal, by the way, to the extent that you can divulge it here?
I want to reach a certain level of English skills, and would like to transfer such skills to others, if possible.
12:11
But your English skills are admirable as they are now.
Thanks! I know that there are lots of flaws, though. I can see those flaws every time I try to see them.
Of course. Everybody does. Even the best writers. That's why writing is a tough art to learn.
Indeed!
That includes stylistic as well as grammatical concerns.
Of course. There are many ways to use the language. People use theirs differently.
Technical, academic, legalese, literature, and so on.
12:15
Yes. But at the moment, which field captivates you?
English in general.
That's nice.
It's more like I want to understand the language acquisition process better.
That's as it should be.
Oh, so more about the language learning process.
Yes. You can say that.
12:17
How it is done, how it can be made more smooth and obstacle-free?
Exactly!
I know that my English is not perfect, but suppose that I can bring an absolute beginner up to my level, or as close as possible, in only about a year. Isn't that wonderful?
I see. That's a burgeoning field now, what with globalization and international commerce.
It seems so. There are a lot of schools of thought.
What about you? It sounds like you want to take root somewhere. May I ask where?
That's wonderful, but that's entirely dependent on your student's motivation.
@user4550 Indeed. That's almost an absolute requirement.
12:26
So, what percentile range do reckon the likelihood to be in of encountering that "ideal" student with no distractions in their mental ether?
I'm afraid I don't have a concrete answer for that.
What do you think of my English?
It's rather good!
Thanks for the sweet words.
What is the English education landscape there in your country?
You seem to focus more on English of the older days. I don't know if it will have some effects on your modern English.
@user4550 It was rather bad. Then it gets better a bit. I think at the moment the situation is a bit fuzzy.
Like everywhere else in the world, we have a lot of schools, too many different approaches, and so on.
To sum it up, I think it could have been better.
12:32
I see. Is it like in China, where semi-celebrity teachers publish stupid how-to books touting their secrets, such as "HOW I MASTERED ENGLISH IN SIX MONTHS," "LISTENING IS EVERYTHING," etc.?
Almost like that, I don't mind those things, if they really work.
When someone says "I mastered English in six months", naturally it will beg a question such as "How much of it did you master?"
One of the vexatious trends in the field is that most people are "forced" to learn English (maybe due to the Zeitgeist) even if they have no need to; all they get in the end is an inferior complex.
Too right.
I think of English as a tool. It's a great tool to catch up with the world.
The fact that we need to learn to use this tool doesn't make us less than who we are.
@user4550 I can imagine such a thing, though.
Oh!---you are now wading into the realm of national identity.
Not really. I think of each individual person.
12:40
That's good.
But I have a feeling that most mega-teachers' English skills pale in comparison to those of some of the non-native members of this community.
Hehe! Probably true. I don't know those mega-teachers you're mentioning, though.
Me, neither; I just have a nodding acquaintance.
Let me do some Googling.
I'm curious now! :-)
But no, that'll hurt their business...can't do it here.
Okay. That's fair.
You could mention a few keywords that might help me find them more easily. (If you'd like)
12:49
Thanks a lot!
Those places are, according to the media, most crazed about English these days.
Where is Thailand??
Umm... Below China, and on the left of Vietnam, above Singapore and Malaysia.
12:52
No no...Thailand is not crazed yet?
Oh, I misunderstood your question. Yes, I think it's similar to those countries.
TOEIC is popular?
I think TOEFL is probably even more popular.
A lot of people here know what TOEIC is.
I see.
Gotta do some other stuff for a bit. See you later!
 
4 hours later…
16:35
I wonder what do we call linguistically the phrase or clause "most peacefully" in the sentence discussed in this question:
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/40365/2127
And good evening everyone of course. (0:
@CopperKettle Looks like an adjunct to me.
Thanks, @DamkerngT.!
Beyond that, you will need snailboat. :-) Or CGEL.
(0:
I'm trying to google and 've found the expression "a relative clause with quantity expression"
Hmm... Wait...
It modifies people, right?
16:41
I'm not sure
It uses the word "peacefully" that must modify "rallied"
on the other had it uses "most (of them)" which is probably a "quantity expression" referring to "people"
It sounds like: Thousands of people rallied in other U.S. cities, most (of them did so) peacefully, ...
Oh, so it is a compressed clause that has its own compressed (not overtly shown) verb
its own predicate
nods -- Otherwise, we'll need to read it as They rallied most peacefully.
And in English you can't set off with commas an adverbial like "most peacefully"?
I think we can do that, but it's unlikely they would do it.
16:46
I've read that you can use commas if an adverbial modifies a whole sentence, at this page:
http://punctuationmadesimple.com/PMSComma.html
For example: "Thousands of people rallied in other U.S. cities, most sadly, ..."
with "most sadly" related not to "rallied" of course (0:
but given as a commentary on the whole situation
I think it's fair to say that it's a bit ambiguous.
But most people would read it like we do.
Maybe in about XVIII century one could've set off an adverbial modifying "rallied" with commas... I'm not a expert on the history of English punctuation (0:
Me neither. I remember TRomano mentioned something like commas aren't really part of sentences, even. (I might over-simplify his opinion a bit.)
His answer there was downvoted. I haven't read it though.
I think what he did is basically ignoring the commas, and then gave two possible readings.
Naturally, some people wouldn't agree with this.
16:51
nods
Hehe! I think it's an appositive that is an expression of quantity!
"thousands of people, most of them peaceful, rallied..."?
> Thousands of people rallied in other U.S. cities, most (of them rallied) peacefully, ...
Could an appositive be a full-fledged clause?
I'm thinking back and forth between appositive and absolute clause.
16:54
I'm googling back and forth between the same
It works as if it's an appositive (it tells us more about what happened), but structurally, it looks a bit more like an absolute clause.
To say it's an adjunct will need us to read it the other way. (They all rallied most peacefully ...)
Maybe you should give it a shot, try to post your answer
I think yours is good enough already.
I'm adding some more to it now
The OP's focus is more about the meaning, I think.
nods
16:58
Yes, but I've got a downvote and that served as an inspiration of a kind (0:
Oh!
I didn't notice the downvotes!
It was indeed the cause of at least one minus vote (hi) - I'll happily remove it when you've edited the question, but I gave it as I felt the answer was incorrect in the current state — Jon Story 7 mins ago
Ahh... That explains it.
(0:
I've tweaked the answer a bit.
user116848
Yello! :-)
nods -- Hi!
Hi, @Arrowfar!
user116848
17:02
@CopperKettle Hey :)
How are you, Arrowfar?
user116848
I am fine, thanks! What about you?
The same!
I tend to agree with TRomano that both readings are possible. But I think most peacefully as an adjunct is unlikely.
user116848
@CopperKettle How is the weather down there? It must be chilling, right?
17:05
Much milder today, Arrowfar!
Minus 10 only : pogoda.e1.ru
user116848
Oh
LOL -- If that is mild...
user116848
Minus 10 is crazy cold I bet!
With proper garments its not!
user116848
Yeah -- nods
17:07
Without proper garments, you're dead. (0: Is it warm where you are?
user116848
Yeah, here it is 23 C
user116848
:-)
user116848
Pakistan.
user116848
It is evening here.
Oh, we're in the same timezone, probably! Yekaterinburg/Islamabad
user116848
17:09
Hehe. If I go very north I'll end up in Russia I guess :-)
user116848
Then Arctic circle!
First, you'll have to pass Afghanistan
user116848
Ahh
My sister has been writing a thesis on Afghanistan
user116848
I see
user116848
17:11
We get borders with Afghanistan, India, China, Iran and Arabian Sea :-)
user116848
I live in the South, so Arabian Sea is very near :-)
Yes, I know. Quite interesting history, with a border arbitrarily drawn and causing a lot of conflicts
user116848
Yeah, that sort of stuff too sadly.
Oh, you're near the ocean, that's cool
user116848
Yep! :-)
17:13
@CopperKettle Ahh... Looks like we have many of such conflicts around the world.
user116848
But sadly we don't go there (to ocean) often it is not considered safe you know.
user116848
I mean bad people, mugging etc.
Oh, that's too bad.
user116848
17:15
Yeah.
user116848
So, people if they go to seaside they come back before dusk.
user116848
Then it is pretty safe. After that we never know.
And in big groups, probably
user116848
Yeah.
user116848
It is 10:22 PM here :-)
user116848
17:22
I think Copperkettle has the same time :-)
Yes. (0:
user116848
Yay!
user116848
Same timezone but very far. It looks awesome!
(0:
Do you speak Urdu?
user116848
Yep! Fluently.
user116848
17:25
And English of course.
user116848
And a little bit basic words of Arabic.
17:36
Shab Bakhair!
user116848
Shab Bakhair! :-)
"shab" is very like "shub" in Hindi.
I recall "Shubh Ratri, shubh prabhat.."
(0:
Oh, it's "Good night".
user116848
You know Urdu is made up of Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit etc.
17:37
nods
user116848
So we get words of many languages.
I can't guess the word, though.
user116848
Here we use Arabic greetings mostly!
user116848
Not Urdu's :-)
Oh! In what language is Shab Bakhair?
17:38
Main Jon Ko Dhuund Raha Hoon
@DamkerngT. - it's "good evening" in Urdu
user116848
hehe
user116848
@DamkerngT. It is Urdu
Thanks!
user116848
17:40
@CopperKettle It means "I am looking for Jon"
For a man named John or for a toilet?
user116848
What? :)
John wasn't capitalized there so I thought it's "toilet"
(0:
user116848
I think it is 'Jon'. What that is.
user116848
17:42
I don't know what 'Jon' is in English or Urdu :-)
user116848
We use many many English words here.
I think there is a book about john.
We too use a lot English words, especially in the latter decades
user116848
I see. Yeah, we are all adapting English.
Anonymous
17:51
@CopperKettle There's no article, and john isn't a mass noun meaning "toilet"
@snailboat - Indeed! I haven't noticed that!
Anonymous
"I didn't notice that!"
Anonymous
Also possible: "I hadn't noticed that!"
But "notice" seems not to be static.
Russian Wikipedia has a whole big megilah of an article on Urdu Grammar
Anonymous
17:54
@CopperKettle It's an achievement verb. That is to say, it's punctual
Anonymous
When you notice something, you're put into the resulting state of having it in your awareness
I think it works closely to the way become works.
Anonymous
Therefore you can't say "I haven't noticed that", because if you're talking about it you're already aware of it, so it's clearly no longer true that you haven't noticed it
Anonymous
But "I hadn't noticed that" makes sense because it puts the state of not having noticed clearly in the past
Oh, I see, thank you, Snailboat!
Anonymous
17:55
However, "I haven't noticed that" is grammatical, it just didn't make sense in this context.
"I haven't noticed you washing your hands before breakfast, young man"
A sentence like that would be grammatical? Or "I haven't noticed that." could also be construed as grammatical?
Anonymous
Yes, that's fine
Anonymous
Because at utterance time it's still true
Anonymous
@CopperKettle "I haven't noticed that" is perfectly grammatical
Anonymous
It just doesn't make sense in our context above
17:57
Oh, I mean, logical.
It could be construed as logical in a context similar to my "young man" sentence, probably.
Anonymous
Yes, I usually just say "makes sense"
Anonymous
CGEL uses # to mark sentences as "semantically or pragmatically anomalous"
Anonymous
Which is how I would have marked your utterance earlier
Anonymous
(When I say CGEL I always mean Huddleston & Pullum 2002, not Quirk et al. 1985)
18:00
Yes, I understand. It's quite often bandied about ELL and ELU, I mean this acronym
I'll be back in 10 minutes
user116848
@snailboat Hi snail!
Anonymous
"I haven't noticed" is fine in an example like yours, where you actually still haven't noticed :-)
Anonymous
Hello!
Anonymous
18:18
@DamkerngT. I think since it's non-finite that should be "Thousands of people rallied in other U.S. cities, most of them doing so peacefully, ..."
I wonder if it's a relative clause, Snailboat..
user116848
Who else hate my avatar here? :-)
user116848
Prolly nothing :)
A nice avatar, I have nothing about it
Anonymous
18:20
@CopperKettle If it's a relative clause, you should be able to identify the location of a gap and show the relationship to the constituent it modifies. Can you do that?
user116848
Yay!
Anonymous
I don't know why anyone would hate the yin-yang symbol. I suppose for everyone who hates it, there's someone who loves it.
Anonymous
@CopperKettle English doesn't have gapless relative clauses.
user116848
@snailboat So sweet of you! Thanks!
user116848
18:22
Oh, two stars already lol
Okay, I'll read up (googles "gap relative clause")
Two stars because its a great impromptu quip
@snailboat Ahh... Agree. Thanks!
Anonymous
I kicked the ball. → the ball [ that/which/∅ I kicked __ ]
user116848
@CopperKettle Hehe!
Anonymous
The __ shows the location of the gap
Anonymous
18:23
We understand ball as though it fits into that gap, and the relative word which (if present) links the head noun ball to that gap
Anonymous
The gap cannot be filled
cannot be filled by what?
Anonymous
The point is that the direct object position has nothing in it. And you can't put something there, as long as it's a relative clause
Anonymous
Normally you'd need something there:
Anonymous
"I kicked the ball."
Anonymous
18:25
When you relativize it, you pull that out:
Anonymous
the ball [ that/which/∅ I kicked __ ]
Anonymous
And it leaves behind a gap
Oh, I twig it!
Anonymous
We understand ball as though it's in direct object position, even though we've pulled it out and left behind a gap in its place
"I kicked the ball" in a standalone clause, but in a relative there's a gap there
Anonymous
18:27
Yes
"That's the ball I kicked *it."
Anonymous
In non-standard English, there is some limited use of resumptive pronouns (pronouns inside a relative clause that refer back to the head noun)
^Sometimes I do that, though usually in more complex sentences.
Anonymous
In some languages, resumptive pronouns are perfectly standard (as in French)
Anonymous
18:28
In English, native speakers use them only occasionally, usually feeling that they're clumsy and can't think of a better way to put it
Anonymous
And they're generally considered non-standard
Anonymous
In that case, the resumptive pronoun fills in the gap
"Him that I kicked he cried"
nods -- Basically, it's a common error among learners.
Anonymous
Resumptive pronouns are pronouns in a relative clause which refer to the antecedent of the main clause (sometimes referred to as the matrix clause). These pronouns occur after a pause or interruption (such as an embedded clause, series of adjectives, or a wh-island), and they restate the antecedent. 1. This is the girli that whenever it rains shei cries. Their primary role is to “block violations of syntactic constraints”, but that is not their only role. In the past, resumptive pronouns have been seen as “ways of salvaging a sentence that a speaker has started without realizing that it is...
18:29
"Him that I kicked him, cried"
Anonymous
> This is the girl [ that whenever it rains she cries. ]
@CopperKettle Poor him, got kicked twice!
Anonymous
This sort of sentence is generally frowned upon by the sort of people who do grammar-related frowning
2
user116848
Hehe!
18:30
In Russian, resumptive pronouns seem to be a no-no too.
user116848
Oh, three stars already!
user116848
I should stop saying that :-)
user116848
Still I get many sentences that are very difficult to parse.
user116848
Without parsing many sentences look ungrammatical.
I have those too, Arrowfar
user116848
18:33
Yeah
user116848
I see such sentences in text books mostly. We don't get such sentences in conversations very often.
user116848
Conversations are plain and simple mostly.
As for me, the most tricky sentences I've seen, and some still has not unciphered, are in Gerard Manley Hopkins's poems
user116848
Ahh
user116848
I never heard his name though.
user116848
18:36
Googles
His poems could be really hard to get
user116848
Reverend Father Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J. (28 July 1844 – 8 June 1889) was an English poet, Roman Catholic convert, and Jesuit priest, whose posthumous fame established him among the leading Victorian poets. His experimental explorations in prosody (especially sprung rhythm) and his use of imagery established him as a daring innovator in a period of largely traditional verse. == Life == === Early life and family === Gerard Manley Hopkins was born in Stratford, Essex (now in Greater London), as the first of nine children to Manley and Catherine (Smith) Hopkins. His father founded a mar...
user116848
Poems can be tricky sometimes.
user116848
Songs too.
Anonymous
Sentences in speech tend to be simpler because we don't have the luxury of planning our sentences out at length, revising as we go
user116848
18:38
True.
Here, I understand only the first two stanza clearly: (0:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Lantern_out_of_Doors
Anonymous
Although we use certain grammar in speech that we don't often write down, giving speech its own type of complexity
Speeches at the podium are also more likely to have more complex grammar.
user116848
@DamkerngT. Yeah those are very formal...and long-winded mostly.
Anonymous
These speeches are, of course, often just recitations of written language
user116848
18:41
Plus boring.
Anonymous
Hey, you can give non-boring speeches! :-)
Oh, I find them rather exciting sometimes!
Anonymous
It can be fun. I kind of miss doing impromptu speeches!
user116848
If you are a stand up comedian then only it is not boring :-)
user116848
I mean most speeches make me bored to death.
user116848
18:43
:-)
Anonymous
And dramatic readings.
user116848
Yeah, those are creepy :-)
Anonymous
Haha.
Anonymous
They certainly can be!
@Arrowfar Inquiry is also exciting. Particularly when it's about where the people's money's gone. :-)
user116848
18:44
I have a habit of writing boring stories too. I am not that exciting I guess ;-)
user116848
@DamkerngT. Hehe
Anonymous
Do you like scary stories?
Oh, you like to write stories?
user116848
@snailboat Me? Yeah, I used to.
user116848
@CopperKettle Just some small stuff here and there :-)
user116848
18:46
For fun only.
user116848
I mostly do finance related writing.
I've never tried..
user116848
For studies and exams etc.
Well O.Henry was also in the finance, and look what a writer he turned out to be!
user116848
Who is O Henry?
user116848
18:47
Googles
O.Henry, one of the best short-story writers in English
user116848
William Sydney Porter (September 11, 1862 – June 5, 1910), known by his pen name O. Henry, was an American writer. O. Henry's short stories are known for their wit, wordplay, warm characterization, and clever twist endings. == Biography == === Early life === William Sidney Porter was born on September 11, 1862, in Greensboro, North Carolina. He changed the spelling of his middle name to Sydney in 1898. His parents were Dr. Algernon Sidney Porter (1825–88), a physician, and Mary Jane Virginia Swaim Porter (1833–65). William's parents had married on April 20, 1858. When William was three,...
user116848
A-ha
user116848
So, the most difficult contemporary English I have encountered is in Time magazine.
user116848
It has some difficult words in it.
user116848
18:57
@CopperKettle We have the same time. What time is the sunset where you live?
user116848
Here it is almost 6 PM nowadys.
user116848
I see :-)
But here, we have prolonged dusk periods
user116848
You mean sun doesn't go for a very long time.
user116848
18:59
That must look nice I guess.
Yes, it starts to go, but its inclination angle is shallow
so it make take hours before a full dark sets in

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