English Language Learners

Anonymous

06:19

@DamkerngT. I passed a practice test! :-)

Anonymous

I'm a practice winner!

Anonymous

I had fifteen minutes left after the written part

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yay!

CopperKettle

Congratulations, @snailboat!

Was it a test on the use of the Japanese language?

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes

Anonymous

06:31

I've never taken a Japanese test before

Anonymous

So I'm rather nervous about it, but I'm taking some practice tests :-)

Anonymous

Well, I took one today, anyway

Anonymous

It doesn't test speaking or writing, it's just a multiple choice test for reading and listening

CopperKettle

Do you mean you've been taking tests by yourself to prepare for the official test?

Anonymous

Well, I am starting today! :-)

Anonymous

06:33

I've got two weeks left until the test!

Anonymous

So I thought I'd take a practice test!

Anonymous

Just to get used to the idea so I'll be less nervous when I take the actual test :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Is there a website that hosts the practice tests?

Anonymous

They sell them on paper

CopperKettle

oh.

Anonymous

06:35

The test booklets are like 45 pages

Anonymous

The most you have to read at a time is about a page-and-a-half long essay, and then you answer a few questions about what it said

CopperKettle

How long have you been learning Japanese?

Anonymous

Hmm... About 17 years!

CopperKettle

Wow, you must be at a native level by now.

Anonymous

Haha

Anonymous

06:37

You're severely overestimating me :-)

Anonymous

But I think I might be able to pass this test at least :-)

Anonymous

It is the hardest level of the test

CopperKettle

I'd a girlfriend that tried to pass a Japanese test, went to the city of Perm for that, but failed.

So you've passed the lighter versions of the test already?

Anonymous

Oh, no

Anonymous

I've never taken a Japanese test before

Anonymous

06:39

I just thought I'd sign up for it :-)

Anonymous

My friends keep telling me to!

CopperKettle

Tests are good for making one improve on one's grammar and stuff. (0:

Anonymous

The actual grammar and kanji questions were all easy

Anonymous

I got all of those right

Anonymous

But the reading comprehension part was tougher!

Anonymous

06:41

I guess it's designed so that you spend most of the time on the reading comprehension part

CopperKettle

Is it obstruse on purpose, or has tricky questions?

Anonymous

For the most part, it doesn't ask directly about what the essays say,

Anonymous

More like, "Which of the following statements most closely matches with the ideas held by the writer?"

Anonymous

That sort of thing

Anonymous

I couldn't answer some of them

Damkerng T.

06:44

Ahh... That kind of question is hard.

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

The practice tests are just the actual tests from past years

Damkerng T.

It's half comprehension, half reasoning, and oh, half ~~guessing~~ mind reading!

Anonymous

They sell them in booklets with CDs

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I had to guess at times!

Anonymous

06:45

If only I'd known to ~~guess~~ mind read instead!

Anonymous

I forgot to get my psychic powers ready before the practice test

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

I'll take more practice tests before the actual test

Anonymous

My study buddy has a bunch of practice tests!

CopperKettle

I've asked one question about the meaning of a phrase at ELU and is amazed at the variety of answers, so it is indeed hard to get into the author's mind.

Anonymous

06:47

@CopperKettle I was chatting with someone online about the test, and they started talking about strategies for how to answer this sort of question

Damkerng T.

My cat tapped on my leg, and walked away. I guess his tapping means "Are you all right?", because I was laughing so hard.

Anonymous

Test strategies seem like a good idea, but I think I'd rather just read the test and try to answer as best I can

Anonymous

I hate trying to game things

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

And nothing bad will happen if I fail the test, apart from ponderous amounts of shame :-)

CopperKettle

06:49

(0:

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Explanation or a clear definition or some synonym for reversing the effect of something

The ease with which a fish can reverse the effect of the sidedness of its eye asymmetry simply by turning around has caused biologists to study internal anatomy, especially the optic nerves, for the answer. Would you please in a readily way throw a light on the bold part? Any help would be...

It's really hard to understand what he cannot understand!

CopperKettle

It's she, I guess.

Damkerng T.

reverse the effect of something — nima_persian Nov 19 at 18:37

@CopperKettle He mentioned once that he's male.

CopperKettle

Oh.

I thought Nima is a female name.

Damkerng T.

I thought the same before he cleared the things up!

I bet that he knows "something", and "effect", and "reverse", and "the effect of something" shouldn't be too hard for him.

CopperKettle

06:56

I've asked this question at ELU and is amazed at the variety of answers.

Damkerng T.

I'm not familiar with the phrase, either.

CopperKettle

I guess it could mean a variety of things. Probably the right answer has expired with the author.

Got some translation to do, bye. (0:

Damkerng T.

Have a nice day!

Anonymous

@CopperKettle See you later! :-)

Anonymous

5

Q: Is the idiom "what price [something]?" used here in the sense of "how about [something]?" - or not?

An excerpt from the movie 49th Parallel (1941), a dialogue between heroes. (the bulk of it by an anthropologist (A) writing about Indian tribes of Canada) (A) Yes, I've discovered some rather amusing things during my researches. Blackfoot tribal customs, for instance, closely resemble th...

idioms

Anonymous

07:02

"What price [something]" = "At what price does [something] come?" = a rhetorical question suggesting that the (moral?) price of something may be too high to pay

Anonymous

I haven't looked at the question or its answers, just the title :-)

Damkerng T.

It sounds like some words are missing (or omitted), but I can't tell for sure what are missing. "At what price does ...?" is nice!

Anonymous

It's an idiom

Damkerng T.

It's probably the best to think of it as idiom.

nods

Anonymous

Phrases like this are essentially all ungrammatical, I'd think

Anonymous

07:05

But "What price <noun phrase>" is a productive pattern

Damkerng T.

Which reminds me of "order takeout"!

I think takeout will be reclassified as adverb soon.

(I misremembered it!)

Anonymous

I think it already has been.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat What if I say, "What cost ABC?"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's fine.

Anonymous

Oh wait, you said cost in place of price

Damkerng T.

07:06

~~Neat!~~ Yes.

Anonymous

I didn't realize you were exploring variations

Anonymous

Let's see.

Anonymous

I think you can substitute a synonym in place of price

Anonymous

And I think you can prepend at

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

07:09

Or, alternatively, you can suggest that at is normally omitted

Anonymous

I'm going to look it up!

Anonymous

No, wait!

Anonymous

I have a test coming up! Maybe I should study Japanese instead of English :-)

Anonymous

Heck, I already know English. At least some of it. :-)

Damkerng T.

Yup!

Anonymous

07:10

Maybe I should look at the questions I got wrong

Damkerng T.

Don't worry. I normally try to avoid inventing phrases myself in typical conversations.

Anonymous

I invent lots of phrases

Damkerng T.

In casual talks, it's fun!

Anonymous

Yeah!

Anonymous

Maybe not all of them work terribly well, but that can be part of the fun :-)

Damkerng T.

07:11

Hee

Anonymous

The kanji section was just 6 questions and none of them were terribly hard

Anonymous

I would expect any literate reader to be able to get them

Anonymous

100% right, I mean.

Damkerng T.

Wow!

I remember that the reading comprehension part is also 60 points, which is one-third of the whole test.

Anonymous

I feel like the test makers don't really want to emphasize the kanji part

Anonymous

07:13

It's 60 points out of 180

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

I timed myself

Anonymous

Out of 110 minutes, I used 19 minutes on the first section (kanji / grammar / vocabulary)

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

And 76 minutes on the second section (reading comprehension)

Anonymous

07:13

So I had 15 minutes left at the end

Damkerng T.

Whoa!

Eh? I thought that all the test takers must do the listening part together at the same time.

Anonymous

I suppose if I were taking the test for real, I'd spend those 15 minutes going over my answers

Anonymous

The third section is listening, and it's 60 minutes

Anonymous

I didn't time that because it's always exactly 60 minutes :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh.. I see. It's another 60 minutes.

Anonymous

07:14

You have 110 minutes for the first two sections combined

Anonymous

You have to pace yourself

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So you could spend 55 minutes on each of those sections

Anonymous

I mean, in theory. It wouldn't make very much sense. :-)

Anonymous

The kanji / grammar / vocabulary section is mostly very short questions

Anonymous

07:15

And you either know them or you don't, and you move on

Anonymous

There are a couple tricky styles of questions in there, though

Damkerng T.

I'm not used to timing myself during the tests. Because I think I'm an average person.

(I mean, they shouldn't design any tests to fail the average person. :-)

Anonymous

If the real test is like this practice test,

Anonymous

Then I should be able to get through it without worrying about pacing

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

07:18

One of the types of questions is interesting

Anonymous

They give you a sentence with four consecutive blanks, and four words or phrases, numbered 1 2 3 4

Anonymous

You have to figure out what order to put them in

Damkerng T.

Oh, that sounds like arranging cartoon panels!

But with words.

Anonymous

It's kind of tricky at first, just because the concept is unfamiliar, I think

Anonymous

They highlight one of the four blanks

Anonymous

07:19

And say "Which word fits into this blank?"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hah! I think not so few ESL books have this kind of exercise.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's common?

Damkerng T.

Not super-common, but common enough.

Anonymous

Ah!

Anonymous

I imagined they'd invented it for this test :-)

Damkerng T.

07:21

Seems so!

Anonymous

Maybe this test is modeled after English tests

Anonymous

This Japanese test has only been around since the 80s

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's relatively new.

Anonymous

I missed a couple words in the vocabulary section!

Damkerng T.

Oh, no!

Anonymous

07:23

I didn't know かさばる 'be a hassle to carry'

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I forgot to ask, what minimum score is needed to pass the test?

Anonymous

100/180

Damkerng T.

Oh, a couple words are just a small dent!

Anonymous

It seems like an awfully low bar, but they do put in some difficult questions!

Anonymous

They seem to like to pick abstract essays that don't make their points directly

Anonymous

07:25

Although it varied. Some were relatively direct

Anonymous

One of the problem sections gives you a pair of fairly short essays (about 2-3 paragraphs each), and then asks you questions comparing the two

Anonymous

I wonder if that's also common in those ESL books

Damkerng T.

Comparing two essays is not common, I think. I haven't seen one.

Anonymous

One of the vocabulary sections appears to test collocations

Anonymous

It gives you a set of synonyms to pick from, and you have to pick the one that naturally goes with the other words

Damkerng T.

07:28

Ahh... That's common in English, too.

Anonymous

It's kind of tricky!

Damkerng T.

It can be!

I think it depends on the choices they gave.

Anonymous

Well, they give some silly-sounding answers on these.

Anonymous

I'm going to have to do my best not to laugh when I'm taking the actual test :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I forgot to tell you one good trick to do this kind of test. Though I think you probably already know it.

Anonymous

07:30

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

The trick is: Be the average person.

Anonymous

That's very Zen!

Anonymous

But I don't know what it means. :-)

Damkerng T.

I mean, try not to be below or above average.

Normally, an average person won't think too much, or too deep.

Anonymous

So I shouldn't overthink stuff.

Anonymous

07:32

(Me, not overthink stuff? Uh oh :-)

Damkerng T.

That's the point for a smart person.

Anonymous

For the reading sections, I tried reading the questions first.

Damkerng T.

I observe this in a lot of ESL tests. Out of the 4 choices, two are obviously wrong. But we can pick the wrong one left if we overthink it.

@snailboat Ah, a lot of people seem to like this trick.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They told us in junior high school to try to rule out the obviously wrong answers first on multiple choice tests

Anonymous

It seems like good advice, but if they're obviously wrong, I assume students can figure out not to pick them even without that advice :-)

Damkerng T.

07:37

Hehe!

Anonymous

At least, I usually try not to pick obviously wrong answers.

Anonymous

I didn't always read all the answers when one was obviously correct

Anonymous

They told us in those same classes to always read all of the answers

Anonymous

But I guess I'm impatient!

Damkerng T.

English teachers normally suggest this to their students. I think they assume that their students cannot read the whole passage in time. So, knowing what the questions are can help to skim or scan the text properly.

See, I know some tricks to pass the test! (Which is why I don't like these tests much.)

Anonymous

07:42

I read all of the passages.

Anonymous

They weren't especially long.

Anonymous

I'm not a particularly fast reader in Japanese, so I worried I might be falling behind, but I ended up having 15 minutes left.

Anonymous

But if I try to rush through it, then I'll end up missing whatever they're asking about, and I'll just be wasting time.

Damkerng T.

nods

Your new watch will be very useful, I think. :D

Anonymous

It tells me the time!

Anonymous

07:44

People said it was really important to have a watch because if you don't finish in time, you can fill in all the rest of bubbles at the last minute and get some extra points

Damkerng T.

Oh, there is no 5-minute warning?

Anonymous

There is no warning.

Anonymous

They don't even have clocks in the test room.

Anonymous

I don't know why they do that.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Strange.

Anonymous

07:46

Apparently last time they even covered up the thermostat with a sheet of pink paper

Anonymous

I'm not sure how people would use a thermostat to cheat, but . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

For that matter, I'm not sure how people would use a five-minute warning to cheat.

Anonymous

I honestly think a lot of these things are pretty arbitrary.

Anonymous

Apparently they're trying to crack down harder on cheating.

Damkerng T.

07:47

Oh, no. I didn't mean it for cheat. Some students here use it to fill the remaining answers.

Anonymous

They make you put your phone in a sealed envelope.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I know.

Anonymous

I'm just trying to imagine what their motivation could possibly be to not let you know the test is about to end

Anonymous

And I can't think of anything!

Damkerng T.

Me either!

Damkerng T.

10:43

If we think about it, a non-tonal language (English is one) will have two choices to deliver the same information in approximately the same amount of time as in a typical tonal language. One is to have more syllables, the other is to have more phonemes. English appears to be the latter (it has 24 consonant sounds, with 11-14 pure vowels; compared to, say, Thai, which has 21 consonant sounds, and 9 pure vowels). — Damkerng T. 1 hour ago

... English native speakers employ a lot of trick to compress the higher number of phonemes. I believe most of them aren't even aware of. (Admittedly, I don't know exactly what I'm doing when I'm speaking my first language, either.) And pronouncing phoneme consecutively, even across word boundaries, is one of such tricks. I believe that the speakers of many tonal languages will automatically insert a glottal stop between a word ending with their /k/ sound and a word beginning with a vowel sound, in their first languages. It's unnecessary in English. — Damkerng T. 1 hour ago

I think I'm gonna delete the two comments to encourage others to answer the question.

Anonymous

But your comments will live on... in chat!

Damkerng T.

That's okay. I stand by my words. :-)

Actually I posted in here so I won't forget about it.

I just finished phoneme transcription of that part. I think I'm going to upload the screenshots to my Dropbox, and post them as a comment.

Anonymous

Japanese speakers always have this problem

Damkerng T.

When they listen to English? I think.

Anonymous

They want the /k/ to be released into its own vowel sound before the following vowel

Anonymous

10:48

Yes, I meant when learning English

Damkerng T.

He released the /k/ but he pronounced /in/ consecutively immediately after the /k/. No glottal stop.

Anonymous

They have trouble connecting the two sounds

Anonymous

I imagined, without listening, that the /k/ was released into the following vowel

Damkerng T.

Anonymous

Ah, thank you!

Damkerng T.

10:50

The release at about 6.13 is very clear.

Anonymous

That looks different from how I imagined it

Damkerng T.

I guess Listenever must have heard it as "outbreak kin".

Anonymous

Hmm

Anonymous

I'm saying it to myself in various ways

Anonymous

Do you often hear glottal stops in that phonetic context? If I insert one it sounds fine to me

Damkerng T.

10:53

If it's obvious, I think I will hear it.

Anonymous

Or just partial glottalization

Anonymous

Ah, I just wondered if it was a phonetic feature of English you'd observed

Damkerng T.

Let's say we can scale it, I think I can't say for sure if the strength of the stop is less than 75%.

Anonymous

My English phonetics are somewhat rudimentary

Damkerng T.

I think it will sound like /ki/ rather than /k/, glottal stop, /i/.

Anonymous

10:55

Is? Are? Is, I guess.

Anonymous

Sometimes I feel like saying semantics are instead of semantics is

Damkerng T.

Ahh... These words can be tricky at times.

Anonymous

I nitpick my own English a lot

Anonymous

It probably needs some work... Sometimes I write not so good Englishing

Anonymous

I'm my own worst editor

Anonymous

11:00

I hope to someday be able to speak Japanese well enough to speak it wrong on purpose without people thinking I did it on accident :-)

Anonymous

When I try to be clever, people just think I'm messing up.

Anonymous

Not like English, where I have the confidence to mess up as much as I want!

Anonymous

But words are so fun. How can I resist twisting them around?

Damkerng T.

I'm sorry that I wasn't responsive. I just got another power outage.

Anonymous

Welcome back!

Damkerng T.

11:04

@snailboat So true!

Thanks!

Looks like it's going to rain soon, and heavily, too.

Anonymous

Oh! Too heavily?

Damkerng T.

It hasn't started yet, but it looks like it's going to be heavy. :-)

Anonymous

The snails will come out again!

Damkerng T.

Yeah!

Anonymous

They'll need to climb up high to avoid drowning

Damkerng T.

11:08

LOL

Oh, no! No flooding, again!

Ah, I got an idea. I can upload screenshots here without having to use my Dropbox.

Damkerng T.

11:58

Negativity is curious.

> Tessa was pretending to be oblivious, doing absolutely nothing to help alleviate the dreadful, crushing strain.

Basically, the clause is equivalent to "She did nothing to help so."

What did she do? "Nothing to help so."

Why did she do nothing? "(She didn't want) to help so."

Think what and we'll get a complement. Think why and we'll get an adjunct.

Damkerng T.

I'd like to introduce a float test.

> He sings to please her.
To pleaes her, he sings.
He, to please her, sings.

"To please her" is an adjunct. It floats easily.

> He tried to please her.
*To please her, he tried.
*He, to please her, tried.

"To please her" is not an adjunct. If we float it, it will become Yodaish.

> He printed the books to give to the children.
*To give to the children, he printed the books.
*He, to give to the children, printed the books.

"To give to the children" is not an adjunct. It's a complement. It completes "the books".

> She did it to help so.
To help so, she did it.
She, to help so, did it.

"To help so" is an adjunct. It floats!

But if we replace "it" with "nothing"...

> She did nothing to help so.
?To help so, she did nothing.
?She, to help so, did nothing.

Isn't negativity odd?

fahdijbeli

13:10

morning

@DamkerngT. how are you ?

Damkerng T.

I'm okay, thanks. Hello!

fahdijbeli

:)

user116848

Hey all!

fahdijbeli

Hi

I noticed that the most people dont spell the letter "T" with the word "BUT"

they spell it like "R"

I don't know

why

Damkerng T.

I don't follow.

user116848

13:17

Like Bur?

fahdijbeli

yes

user116848

'But' is always But :-)

fahdijbeli

like water they spell wader

instead "T" is "D"

haha

Damkerng T.

By spell, you mean "pronounce", I think.

user116848

Oh, then it looks like a spelling mistake on their part.

fahdijbeli

13:18

ah yes

pronounce sorry

user116848

Wader is something else:

user116848

Wader

Waders, called shorebirds in North America (where "wader" is used to refer to long-legged wading birds such as storks and herons), are members of the order Charadriiformes, excluding the more marine web-footed seabird groups. The latter are the skuas (Stercorariidae), gulls (Laridae), terns (Sternidae), skimmers (Rynchopidae), and auks (Alcidae). Also, the pratincoles (Glareolidae) and the crab plover (Dromadidae), which bear greater resemblance to waders, are closely related to the seabirds. This leaves about 210 species, most of which are associated with wetland or coastal environments. Many...

fahdijbeli

hah no

Damkerng T.

/t/ might look like a simple sound, but it can be tricky.

fahdijbeli

there is also better => beder

I think american language prounonce them

Damkerng T.

13:20

It sounds pretty close to "bedder", but it's a little different.

user116848

Maybe they write the way they pronounce it!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Are you on board for writing exercise tomorrow? :-)

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Probably not. Sorry!

user116848

Oh, okay.

Damkerng T.

Listening to American accents, you can hear "better" sound a lot like "bedder". Listening to British accents, you might hear "better" sound a lot like "be-er". :D

And no /r/ sound at the end, even!

@DamkerngT. I seriously doubt my capability to produce voiceless vowels... there are languages that have them, but even then I dare anyone to sustain a prolonged voiceless vowel sound. — oerkelens 1 min ago

@oerkelens It's nothing but whispering. :D

We do this all the time. Teachers just don't teach us that.

Voiceless schwa was a mind-boggling question on ELL once, iirc.

All in all, most people don't really know what exactly they are doing when they're speaking or how they can do it or how they did it, and it's unlikely for most of us to know what's actually happening. In other words, we all just "speak".

user116848

13:39

Yep, we just speak.

fahdijbeli

@DamkerngT. yes

Damkerng T.

@DamkerngT. I seriously doubt my capability to produce any but a few voiceless vowels... there are languages that have them, but even then I dare anyone to sustain a prolonged voiceless vowel sound. If you pronounce peculiar, the first e may be produced voicelessly, but it is still produced after the p consonant! — oerkelens 11 mins ago

user116848

When we answer questions on the main site can we blockquote our sentences (our own) without any reference (of course) to make the sentences look neat and clean?

user116848

Or blockquote is only for someone else's work?

Damkerng T.

I don't normally quote my own words, unless I made up a dialogue.

@oerkelens Even this is possible. I know it's hard to imagine, but Chinese people make (made?) /ka/ before they spit saliva onto the street in the old days.

user116848

13:46

I see.

user116848

But there is nothing wrong with it I guess.

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar It would be confusing, if you asked me.

I think Jack in Titanic knew how to do it--making that sound before spitting. :D

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