English Language Learners

user62015

16:00

So, you are saying is if we are telling the person who asked the question in that case we can avoid a capital letter after a question mark.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar The first sentence is grammatically somewhat ambiguous―is it a question or a statement? If you consider "The question is," to be an introductory phrase and the rest to be the actual matrix clause, then it's a question and a question mark should probably follow. If you consider the rest of the sentence to be a complement of copular be, then the matrix clause doesn't have the form of a question and a period could be okay. I personally prefer a question mark

Damkerng T.

@user62015 It's more about quoting, I'd say. Think of whatever inside those quotes as part of the whole sentence.

Anonymous

But it's a rather interesting and exceptional English structure

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Present seems fine to me.

user62015

We only use it in the direct speech.

I agree.

Anonymous

16:02

@user62015 What I am saying is that you should not use a capital letter in the middle of a sentence.

user62015

Making sense.

Anonymous

The dialogue and the dialogue tag together form a complete sentence.

Anonymous

This is true regardless of whether the tag comes before or after the quoted speech.

user62015

Okay.

Anonymous

It is possible to write a bit of dialogue without a dialogue tag, of course.

user116848

16:03

@snailboat thanks!

Anonymous

Whew, active chat room this morning :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yay!

user116848

Yay!

user116848

but it's night here. It's 9 pm here. In Thailand probably 12 am and in Calif around 9 am :-)

user116848

I checked on google

user116848

16:06

But I know the time zones. I am good at it.

user116848

However I don't understand the UTC timings. What's that?

user116848

googles UTC

Damkerng T.

It once was GMT. I still like GMT more than UTC, but I think I should use UTC nowadays.

user116848

Oh, I see. Good to know.

user116848

Coordinated Universal Time

Coordinated Universal Time (French: Temps Universel Coordonné, UTC) is the primary time standard by which the world regulates clocks and time. It is one of several closely related successors to Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). For most purposes, UTC is used interchangeably with GMT, but GMT is no longer precisely defined by the scientific community; also, some assert GMT can refer to British Summer Time (BST), which is one hour ahead of UTC. UTC was officially formalized in 1960 by the International Radio Consultative Committee in Recommendation 374, having been initiated by several national time...

Anonymous

16:13

GMT still exists, but people do generally refer to UTC when discussing time zones

Anonymous

@Arrowfar That's a skill!

user116848

:-)

Anonymous

I like those little "world clock" apps and such

Anonymous

Where you can pick a few cities and it shows you what the time is at all of them

user116848

Oh, yes. Presidents use them :-)

user116848

16:16

But we have google that tells everything.

user116848

grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conditional2.htm

user116848

This is a Q/A site too: englishforums.com/English/OpenConditional/zqrjn/post.htm

Anonymous

Funny, I use all sorts of conditional constructions that don't fit into those categories . . . :-)

user116848

Like?

user116848

You use them on whim?

Damkerng T.

16:22

Oh, no, not I, II, and III!

Anonymous

Okay, I set up my world clock app!

user116848

Yes, natives are good at that by default.

Anonymous

Good at what?

Anonymous

user116848

@snailboat Knowing when to use which conditional

Anonymous

16:23

San Francisco, Chicago, London, Bangkok, Tokyo

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Native speakers don't stick to those 3 stereotyped conditionals

user116848

Good work! (about the clock I mean)

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Would you need to think of rules before saying any conditionals in your first language? I wouldn't think so. :)

Anonymous

They're an inadequate description

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Cute!

Anonymous

16:23

They're just stepping stones for learners to help them make correct sentences

user116848

@DamkerngT. I know :-) That's what I meant :)

Damkerng T.

I'd say Three Conditionals work in an abnormal way. Something sorta like marketing. They make you think of what actually is ineffective as something effective.

user116848

So, I once asked a question there on englishformums they answered me like they were shooing me. Argh! I never go there.

Anonymous

What's your impression of the environment on ELL?

user116848

But Wordreference is an okay place

Anonymous

16:27

Welcoming? Hostile? Helpful? Worthless?

user116848

Here? It is good.

user116848

Sometimes they close the questions that I don't like. (esp. on ELU)

Anonymous

Yeah, I don't like answering questions on ELU because I can't predict if they'll be closed

Anonymous

I don't like answering questions I think will be closed

Anonymous

ELL sometimes closes questions that should remain open

Anonymous

16:29

When ELL first started out, certain users indiscriminately closed questions they disliked, like on ELU

Anonymous

They'd even say they didn't care so much which close reason they were picking

Anonymous

That frustrated me a lot

Anonymous

I don't think it's appropriate to bring the ELU attitude to ELL

Damkerng T.

I think I'm starting to see another problem with ELL.

user116848

Yes. ELU attitude is very bad in that.

Damkerng T.

16:31

Lately, I doubt a lot of questions.

user116848

I hated that in the past too, when some of my questions got closed on the ELU.

user116848

I asked there because some folks give very insightful and good answers there.

user116848

That was my reason for using ELU at first.

user116848

But there are downsides there too (like they are close friendly at ELU)

user116848

Pros and cons everywhere!

Anonymous

16:33

ELU, like most SE sites, gets some very good answers, a lot of middling answers, and a fair amount of pretty bad answers

Anonymous

ELL too.

user116848

Yes, that is true.

user116848

I don't mind if everyone wants an attempt at answering a question. Although I do like at least one very good answer to a question.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Do you know the manga titled Gunnm (銃夢)?

Anonymous

You know, I think I picked up one volume of that at random some years back

Anonymous

16:39

I remember learning the word 殺戮 from it

Damkerng T.

I watched Robocop today, and think it would be nice if someone at Hollywood got interested by Gunnm and choose to make a movie out of it.

Eh? Is 殺戮 an alternate title?

Anonymous

Hmm?

Damkerng T.

A wrong paste. Sorry!

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

No, it is a word I remember learning from that manga :-)

Anonymous

16:40

It means slaughter or massacre

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Fits the story really well!

Anonymous

I remember it because the kanji 戮 is so memorable

Damkerng T.

It's very dense!

Anonymous

Well, lots of kanji look dense when you have a small enough font :-)

Anonymous

鬱 probably looks pretty dense!

Damkerng T.

16:42

Indeed!

Anonymous

麤 too!

Anonymous

But they should all look pretty distinctive to the eye nonetheless

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's not dense. That's black!

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

I suppose that a particular font could make them look indistinct, though!

user116848

16:44

Kill Bill is very Japanese!

user116848

Snail have you seen it?

Anonymous

I haven't seen it, sorry

user116848

It's environment. Also the Wolverine

Damkerng T.

user116848

It was shot in Japan

Damkerng T.

16:44

It looks like that on my screen!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! You have no AA!

Damkerng T.

What is it? What is AA?!

@Arrowfar It was?

Anonymous

user116848

@DamkerngT. Wolverine. Yes

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That looks much better. Not black anymore; still dense, though.

Ahh... I understand what AA is now.

Anonymous

16:47

Anti-aliasing. When you sample a continuous signal, let's say a picture of an ideal circle, you have a finite sampling frequency. Parts of the signal that are above half of that frequency cannot be represented

Anonymous

They reflect back down into the visible (or audible) spectrum

Anonymous

And they become indistinguishable from ("aliases" of) other frequencies which were not present in the original continuous signal

Damkerng T.

I like no-AA better. It makes everything look crisp.

Anonymous

Well, the kanji is readable with your font too, but it's a bit less readable

Damkerng T.

I think AA is more effective on higher-res screens (like iPad).

Anonymous

16:49

See, I was surprised because I thought you were on an iPad :-)

Damkerng T.

I'm on PC now. :-)

Anonymous

Everyone says Kill Bill is a great movie

Anonymous

But I'm not sure if it's my kind of movie

Damkerng T.

I can type faster on PC, but my machine is slow. Everything works rather fast on iPad, but I can type much slower.

Anonymous

16:51

The characters are nice and crisp on my phone.

Damkerng T.

sobbing...

Anonymous

On lower resolution displays, I do tend to like having AA off.

Anonymous

Here are the same three characters in font fixed in an xterm

Anonymous

That is the font I use when programming

Damkerng T.

16:53

That's quite readable!

Anonymous

It has no AA

user116848

Why they say?: "You break it you bought it" (looks ungrammatical to me). I say it as "You break it you buy it".

Anonymous

Insert a comma there.

Anonymous

"You break it, you bought it."

Anonymous

It's two clauses

user116848

16:54

Ok. Why use past in the second clause?

Anonymous

Hmm. Good question!

Anonymous

Semantically it seems like "If you break it, you ~~have~~ bought it"!

Anonymous

Maybe have is a colloquial omission

Anonymous

Nah, I don't know.

Anonymous

I've never thought about it before :-)

user116848

16:55

Oh, I see. And my version is common?

Damkerng T.

"You asked for it, you got it."

:-)

user116848

@DamkerngT. Which is in past (both clauses)

Damkerng T.

Anyone remember that?

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Your version works too

user116848

@DamkerngT. I know. It is common.

Anonymous

16:57

But I don't think it's right to call the other version ungrammatical

Anonymous

My intuition says have isn't omitted

Anonymous

I guess I'll listen to that intuition :-)

user116848

So it's past "bought" not "have bought"?

user116848

I see

Anonymous

I guess.

Damkerng T.

16:57

Maybe it might make sense in its own context.

user116848

So, may be it's one of those creepy conditional clauses.

Anonymous

You'd never say it with have

Anonymous

That would ruin the sound!

Anonymous

You b___ it, you b___ it!

Anonymous

It's nicely parallel :-)

Anonymous

16:59

I think the second one could be buy or bought

Anonymous

Don't ask me to explain why :-)

Anonymous

'Cause I dunno!

Damkerng T.

I think bought works better.

user116848

@snailboat I won't. I have listened to it so many times that I often don't ask why lol

user116848

It is like one of those idioms and phrases to me

Anonymous

17:00

@DamkerngT. You know, I like bought better

Anonymous

But people do say buy

user116848

Just remember it and say it kinda thing

user116848

:-)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar That's an awful lot of language. :-)

Anonymous

Learning what to say comes first, analysis comes second

Anonymous

17:00

Not everything fits into neat categories

user116848

Yes.

Anonymous

Hey!

Damkerng T.

I think theses make sense to me: "You break it, you pay for it." "You break it, you('ve) bought it."

Anonymous

People do say "You break it, you've bought it!"

user116848

Yea?

Anonymous

17:01

I was unaware.

user116848

So, you searched?

Anonymous

Yes

user116848

Maybe those guys are pedantic like me that says "have bought" lol

Anonymous

It looks like that was the original!

Anonymous

“If You Break it—You’ve Bought It!”

Anonymous

17:02

So I guess my first explanation was actually correct :-)

user116848

Oh, no I am no pedantic. psshh.

Anonymous

But the "You break it, you bought it!" version has a better ring to it.

user116848

Yes it does

Anonymous

I wouldn't be surprised if people say that version simply because it sounds better with both halves matching

user116848

Good ring but bad structure

Anonymous

17:03

Well, I wouldn't call it bad

Damkerng T.

Me either!

user116848

Or complex structure

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's bad on the other side of the pond.

Anonymous

At least this site gives the version with if and 've as the original (or the earliest cite, at any rate):

Anonymous

barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/…

Anonymous

17:05

> 17 September 1948, Springfield (MA) Union, “Winchell on Broadway,” pg. 16, col. 2:
The bric-a-brac shop in Greenwich Village where a placard warns: “If You Break it—You’ve Bought It!”

Damkerng T.

Oh, I like this one too: "You break it, you take it."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That has a nice ring to it, though I can't say I'm personally familiar with it

user116848

It looks like they want us to buy so bad that they say it in past "bought" LOL

user116848

Like we have already bought it :-)

user116848

So, it's past now!

user116848

17:07

Gone and done

Anonymous

Colloquially, 've is commonly dropped

Anonymous

I think that since this is a bit of a fixed phrase, you'll hear it in situations where you wouldn't otherwise drop 've

Damkerng T.

I think they don't really want us to buy anything, they just want us to pay the damages if we break anything.

user116848

I say it like this: "If you break it you will have to buy it for me"

Anonymous

@Arrowfar For me changes the meaning

Anonymous

17:09

If I buy something for you, I am either buying it on your behalf or buying it to give to you

user116848

Yes, it does. But it is much more emphatic IMO

Anonymous

You would not normally buy something for the owner of the shop

Anonymous

You would buy something from the owner of the shop

StoneyB

I think the sense is (Once) you break it you (have already) bought it - all that's left is paying for your 'purchase'.

user116848

@snailboat I don't have any shop

Anonymous

17:10

@Arrowfar I understand that

user116848

@StoneyB Good explanation

StoneyB

(Hi guys)

user116848

Hi!

Anonymous

Hello! Welcome back to ELL chat!

Damkerng T.

(Hi!)

StoneyB

17:11

I'm all nerves today and can't concentrate on the fine points of English grammar.

Damkerng T.

I'm in Goofy mode. :)

StoneyB

Goofy (Disney) or (Goofy) (goofy)?

user116848

Good question! :-)

Damkerng T.

Probably Goofy goofy. It's my Robotic Goofy mode. :)

(Whatever that means.)

user116848

Goofy (Disney) is also in goofy mood most of the times :p

Damkerng T.

17:15

Will Disney's Goofy come back to the big screen?

StoneyB

RoboGoof. You need an alternative avatar to warn people.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

StoneyB

Like the Christmas hats, perhaps.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I can't wait for those hats!

It would be nice if SE allowed users to upload a set of avatar images and let the users switch their avatars easily.

(Like Facebook status.)

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Wikipedia says Goofy made a cameo appearance in something called Saving Mr Banks this year.

Damkerng T.

17:18

@StoneyB Ah, good news!

hey

@snailboat So can you help me?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Wow, looking at the cast and rating on IMDb, I'll definitely watch this one when it comes to my cable TV. Thanks a lot for the tip!

Anonymous

What do you need help with, @hey?

hey

2 hours ago, by snailboat

@hey What they wrote there is not useful

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

17:21

The pronunciation of accept and except

hey

yes

Damkerng T.

@hey Hey, how are you doing, @hey? <-- I want to say this for quite a while. :)

Anonymous

They aren't necessarily distinguished in speech. They can both be said with a schwa as the first vowel

Anonymous

In careful pronunciation, except can be pronounced a little bit differently

Anonymous

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/except

Anonymous

17:22

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/accept

hey

@DamkerngT. Thanks, i am doing fine. What about you, is your movie over.

Damkerng T.

@hey One of the best movies I watched this year!

hey

@snailboat Yes, they sound almost the same.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. A man with his own walkup music!

Damkerng T.

(It doesn't get a very good rating on various sites, though. a bit sad.)

A The Hey Song!

hey

17:26

lol

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. I don't think I'd want to see it. When Mary Poppins came out I hated it, for much the same reasons it seems Travers did. This movie seems to be trying to 'justify' Disney.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Oh!

hey

@StoneyB You should watch "Chef"

StoneyB

Oops, I lost the thread there. I was looking up Saving Mr Banks.

Anonymous

@hey You can count on people to use context to distinguish the two.

Anonymous

17:29

If you need to make it clear in speech, you can use an exaggerated (unnatural) pronunciation following the spelling

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB I took it that you meant Disney's movie.

Anonymous

But I would normally recommend pronouncing it the way everyone else does

StoneyB

@hey I'll put it on the list, in case I ever see another movie. I think the last one I saw was Departures, which my son brought home from college four years ago.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Was it the Japanese one? (I found several Departures on IMDb.)

user116848

@hey Accept (ak-sept) with an "a"-----and------ Except (ik-sept) with "i"

Damkerng T.

17:33

The Japanese one is about a cellist.

StoneyB

Yes, excellent movie. A teeniny bit forced at the end, but very craftsmanlike.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Looks like a great movie. People also seem to like the movie too.

Anonymous

This is my pet snail, Moon! :-)

user116848

Nice!

Damkerng T.

17:35

@snailboat Oh, Moon wasn't hiding!

hey

@Arrowfar That was already discussed.

7 hours ago, by hey

I think I should keep in mind "accept is pronounced [áksept] and except is pronounced [iksept]."

@snailboat Looking good.

user116848

@hey Yes, that is the key

hey

Nice name "Moon"

StoneyB

Gorgeous colours!

Damkerng T.

I wish my Tom would expose himself more, so I could take a good shot of him!

StoneyB

17:38

Perhaps he is camera-shy. Or on the run from the law.

Damkerng T.

Hah! LOL

hey

I am still thinking, why Indian Prime Minister is giving his speech in Hindi at USA?

StoneyB

Is Tom a snail, too?

Damkerng T.

Tom is a stray snail. I found him outside my house often enough, so I named him Tom. :)

StoneyB

Jailer man and Sailor Sam were searching every one for Snail on the Run.

Damkerng T.

17:45

Snail on the Run!

StoneyB

@hey Perhaps he thinks better in Hindi.

hey

Bye every one. I am going for sleep and hope that i perform well in tomorrow's exam.

Damkerng T.

Good luck on your exam!

StoneyB

Be brilliant! Take no prisoners!

2

Damkerng T.

What a strange coincidence. I just saw a book titled "Take No Prisoners" being mentioned on C-SPAN!

HostileFork

18:06

Seems like a good policy to not imprison people, but I think the statement might be misinterpreted.

StoneyB

Misinterpretation's what we're all about in these parts

Ice Boy

18:59

Take no prisoners means kill everybody @DamkerngT.

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