English Language Learners

F.E.

01:16

2

Q: Should I use the subjunctive mood in these sentence?

Last night, I was asked by a non-native speaker if this sentence is correct: "Would you mind if I sent you messages while you were away?" I replied "no". This is what I would say: "Do you mind if I send you messages while you are away?" She got discouraged and told me that she was practicing ma...

subjunctive-mood

4

Q: Why "Would you mind if I asked you something?" is correct?

Instead of "Would you mind if I ask you something?" Why past tense, I don't get it?

phrase-usage phrase past-tense

> This is simply because this is one way in English to express conditionals about the future. The viewpoint is that the speaker imagines being transported into an imaginary future, and then speaking about hypothetical events from that point of view as if they were already in the past. The use of irrealis constructs like "would" and "were" makes it clear that those are events that are not known to have happened.

Are there grammar books that explain this in this way?

Cerberus

@F.E. Hello!

F.E.

@Cerberus Hello :)

Cerberus

I'm not sure I find that explanation 100% clear.

F.E.

Have you seen that kind of explanation in any grammar book?

Cerberus

Well, it isn't clear enough for me to be sure!

I think there are several questions that the explanation tries to answer at once, but without distinguishing between them.

F.E.

01:23

The OP's example is rather interesting in itself, imo. As it seems to be in the gray area of a preterite being used in a remote conditional and a preterite being used for politeness.

This type of topic had just recently come up in this chat room. :)

We had recently been discussing whether preterites used for politeness were within the past time preterite usage.

Cerberus

@F.E. The two being ultimately connected, as you will no doubt agree.

@F.E. Etymologically, yes.

Wait, what? You cheated! You changed your line.

F.E.

Even I'm getting the different usages all mixed-up! :D

If I'm confused, then everybody gets confused!

Cerberus

I think there is consensus that polite comes from conditional/hypothetical.

F.E.

@Cerberus Not according to H&P's 2002 CGEL. :)

Cerberus

Umm.

F.E.

01:27

That's why I'm finding the OP's example so interesting. :)

Cerberus

I didn't know they dealt with etymology?

F.E.

They mostly deal with today's standard English as it is right now.

Cerberus

(The only theory I know about the relation between past and hypothetical is that hypothetical is removed from facts and hence from the present, just as the past is removed from the present, and that past tenses are for that reason sometimes uses as "substitutes" for a specialised hypothetical form of verbs.)

@F.E. Yes, so I am surprised to hear they deal with the etymology of connections that are possibly Proto-Indo-European in origin.

F.E.

I had just re-skimmed their "politeness" section a little earlier . . . Here it is: page 138, "4.3.2 Past time reference in combination with politeness/diffidence".

Cerberus

If not from something hypothetical, then where do they say the polite conditionals / past-like forms come from?

F.E.

01:30

They say: "This conventional use of the preterite is quite consistent with its basic past time meaning."

Cerberus

That is hardly an explanation of the origin of those conditionals.

user116848

@F.E. We say (let's say): "it seemed only fair I return the favor" after doing a favor for someone. Why not "it seemed only fair I returned the favor"

F.E.

And they say: "As the situations are states, not occurrences, use of the preterite does not entail that the state no longer obtains. And since there is nothing to suggest that the state has ended, the interpretation will be that the state also obtains at T-d, so that [39] conveys "I want to ask your advice", "I wonder whether I can see you for a few minutes".

The added politeness associated with the preterite comes from avoiding explicit reference to the immediate present: I distance myself slightly and thus avoid the risk of appearing too direct, prosily brusque."

@Arrowfar The 2nd version seems to be okay to me.

happenask

hi guys

F.E.

@Arrowfar I got another 3 pages to review in the backshift section. . . .

@Arrowfar Usually, the version with the backshift preterites (your 2nd version) is often the safer version to use, as it can usually be considered to be the default -- but there are exceptions.

user116848

01:40

@F.E. First is not, right? Here is the link to this show that I have watching where I picked up this line----->http://www.buddytv.com/articles/person-of-interest/person-of-interest-revi‌ew-not-47815.aspx

F.E.

@Arrowfar The actual context can be a big factor in all this.

user116848

Oh, I see. So?

F.E.

Usually, in general, the "neutral" sounding version will be the one that uses the backshift preterites -- usually.

In some cases, there is an extra constraint that the non-backshift version has to fulfill (which the backshift version doesn't).

user116848

Yeah, I thought so too. But I saw the character said those words with "return" so I thought there must be a mistake or he is being very informal.

F.E.

@Arrowfar You should examine the context and see if there is a reason why that version was chosen.

user116848

01:44

Yeah, I have pretty much watched all of that episode. But still it seemed strange :)

F.E.

The 3 pages I'm in the middle of re-reading is discussing this exact topic that you have brought up. @Arrowfar

user116848

@F.E. Oh, great! So when are you writing about that in here?

F.E.

@Arrowfar The section is titled: "Factors affecting choice between backshifted and non-backshifted versions"

user116848

@F.E. In CGEL? Which page? I have that book on my PC.

F.E.

Currently I'm on page 157.

I just came in here to take a break . . .

Later tonight I plan to finish up the 3 pages. . . .

user116848

01:47

Yeah FE I have read and re-read that page too in the past :)

user116848

@F.E. I read from pg 151 to 159 on preterites and backshifting. But still felt like discussing with you here :)

user116848

Well, take your time. I am not in a hurry or anything :)

Cerberus

@F.E. Is that all?

F.E.

@Cerberus I'm tired . . . my fingers want to sleep . . .

I'm here on a break . . .

user116848

@Cerberus Hello! Cerbs. How are you?

Cerberus

01:53

@F.E. Let me be frank: I doubt whether H&P have done much research into the origin of the polite "past".

@Arrowfar Hi! Good. I visited my parents today.

F.E.

@Cerberus Er, and you base that on what?

user116848

@Cerberus Yeah? Great!

Cerberus

@F.E. On the fact that it is not an English phenomenon, and on the other sections of the CGEL that I have read.

And they aren't really diachronical, are they?

What page is that quotation from? Then I can read it myself.

F.E.

@Cerberus If you can demonstrate your rationale, such as in a paper, then it might get you published credits to your name. :)

Cerberus

What?

My rationale for what?

F.E.

01:56

@Cerberus Page 138.

@Cerberus For demonstrating the errors or flaws in H&P's 2002 CGEL on this topic.

Cerberus

@F.E. Thanks.

@F.E. I am not demonstrating any errors.

I am informing you of my impression that they do not concern themselves much with diachronic linguistics.

F.E.

@Cerberus Sure :)

hlapointe

Hi! Anyone can help me? I want to know what's the formula use in this answer : math.stackexchange.com/a/870044/160964.

F.E.

@Cerberus Of course they don't. They state up front that they are concerned with today's Standard English in their CGEL.

Cerberus

@F.E. Then I do not expect them to have researched the origin of the polite past extensively.

Hi @hlapointe

hlapointe

02:00

Hello @Cerberus

F.E.

@Cerberus They state, on page 2 in CGEL: "To be more specific, we give a synchronic, descriptive grammar of general-purpose, present-day, international Standard English."

Cerberus

I know.

F.E.

@Cerberus Er, I don't think that's a safe assumption to make.

Cerberus

So I was surprised to see you claim something about the origin based on H&P.

F.E.

@Cerberus What "origin"?

Cerberus

02:03

And by surprised I mean "no wayyyy!!!".

The origin I've been talking about the whole time!

F.E.

@Cerberus Can you point to my comment? Or comments?

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Cerberus

@F.E. Then I do not expect them to have researched the origin of the polite past extensively.

I said I expected there to be consensus. You said H&P disagreed.

F.E.

@Cerberus You said that. But where did I bring up the "origin"?

Cerberus

I was talking about origin. You said "no". So you were also talking about origin.

I mean, I am not saying I am 100% right.

But your counter-claim seemed odd.

F.E.

@Cerberus Look, I don't talk about "origin", as I don't have much of an interest in it. My main interest is in today's standard English. And so, I have no interest in getting involve in "origin" arguments or discussions. And I don't opine, in them--usually I don't. I usually only opine in stuff I think I know about (whether I actually do or not is a separate issue).

@Cerberus You might have been talking about the "origins", but I certainly wasn't opining on them.

Cerberus

02:12

45 mins ago, by Cerberus

I think there is consensus that polite comes from conditional/hypothetical.

45 mins ago, by F.E.

@Cerberus Not according to H&P's 2002 CGEL. :)

I don't know how else to interpret that.

Have we been talking about different things for 45 minutes?

F.E.

@Cerberus It looks like it. :)

Cerberus

For future reference, when I say "x comes from y", and you say "text A disagrees with you", then I read that as a claim about the origin of x.

growls

F.E.

H&P in CGEL considers the polite preterite usage to be within the subset of the past time preterite usage, not within the modal preterite usage. @Cerberus

user116848

So have you noticed that I make too much 'smileys'? Does it look weird?

Cerberus

@F.E. I have read the paragraph, and I see no claim about origins. They don't usually make such claims.

F.E.

02:16

@Cerberus See my previous comment. That was the meaning of my comments in this thread.

Cerberus

Then why did you say H&P disagreed with me?

I don't get it.

Did you perhaps read my line as not being about the origin of the polite past?

F.E.

@Cerberus Here, I'll reword my previous comment, to use terminology similar to yours: "H&P in CGEL considers the polite preterite usage to be within the subset of the past time preterite usage, not within the "conditional/hypothetical" preterite usage."

Cerberus

Yes, so I don't see how that contradicts my line.

I did not talk about "subsets".

Which is rather abstract anyway...

F.E.

@Cerberus I've had enough.

Cerberus

I said "comes from".

So have I. I don't believe H&P contradict my "I think". They're talking about something else.

Anonymous

05:09

@Arrowfar I haven't noticed. But then, all my life I've used too many smilies. It's a hard habit to break!

happenask

05:33

yes you right

sometimes, it so hard for me to have happy face .

Anonymous

Aw!

Anonymous

06:05

I have a new pet snail who is very cute.

Anonymous

F.E.

06:18

2

Q: Should I use the subjunctive mood in these sentence?

Last night, I was asked by a non-native speaker if this sentence is correct: "Would you mind if I sent you messages while you were away?" I replied "no". This is what I would say: "Do you mind if I send you messages while you are away?" She got discouraged and told me that she was practicing ma...

subjunctive-mood

@snailboat I saw your comment. :)

Anonymous

Hehe.

F.E.

I think the OP's example to be an interesting type: "Tom would be bothered if Sue sent him messages" could probably be seen as a remote conditional for the open version "Tom will be bothered if Sue sends him messages". But for the interrogative version that uses "would", then things might not be so clear . . . or then, again, maybe they are. It's that I would like to see other people's rationalizations first (er, solid rationalizations, preferably).

Yeah, I like to read science fiction, but still . . .

I wonder if the person's explanation was due to an attempt to treat the preterites as past time preterites even when they are being used modally . . .

Anyway . . . Tiger finished up the section on backshift, and Tiger did an hour of editing. :)

And tomorrow, I'll go watch Maleficent again. :D

Oh, it's got 3 reopen votes! Goody, goody! :)

happenask

06:55

today is rainy day.

recently. i got started to watch 'modern family'

F.E.

@happenask "Today is a rainy day."

@happenask "Recently, I have started to watch 'Modern Family'."

> Queen: "And you're not offended?"
> Maleficent: "Why, no. And to show I bear no ill will, (pause) I too shall bestow a gift on the child."

F.E.

07:24

> Aurora: "I know you're there. Don't be afraid."
> Maleficent: "I am not afraid."
> Aurora: "Then come out."
> Maleficent: "Then you'll be afraid."

Anonymous

07:52

I'm not familiar with Modern Family

happenask

08:40

it is fun

Damkerng T.

08:58

@Arrowfar The first thing came to my mind, if that was said by a native speaker: subjunctive.

@snailboat Me either.

@happenask Based on those glimpses of Modern Family I got, it looks like fun indeed. :)

skullpatrol

Hi @Damkerng T.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

skullpatrol

How are you?

Damkerng T.

I'm fine. Thanks. How about you?

skullpatrol

Fine thanks :-)

Damkerng T.

09:08

I'm reading the ELU question that F.E. mentioned. Have you seen it?

skullpatrol

Yep, I skimmed over it.

Damkerng T.

Very interesting to me.

skullpatrol

This network gives me a lot to skim read :-)

Damkerng T.

Probably the safest version for non-native speakers is: Would you mind if I sent you messages while you're away?

@skullpatrol lol :)

skullpatrol

Gotta go, see ya pal :D

Damkerng T.

09:12

See you soon!

@MaulikV Ah, I see your question.

Maulik V

yes @DamkerngT.

but which one...these days I'm on questioning mood ;)

Damkerng T.

Saying a product stunned you sounds a bit weird to me.

Maulik V

Take it anything.. The product attracted me... the product enticed me...

the crux is how do I say that without mentioning the verb

Damkerng T.

So, it doesn't appear so anymore?

Maulik V

It does... for instance.. take Hagu

you met him once and liked it... it attracted you

now I'm going to meet him

Damkerng T.

09:25

Haha!

Maulik V

And you say... ah, that cat... it attracted me. Did it you?

Did it to you?

that way

Damkerng T.

Anyway, that's another weird grammatical issue, for me.

Maulik V

which one?

Damkerng T.

The first one I mentioned was about using stunned with a product. The second one is using the past tense.

Maulik V

I edited it in hurry...let me check

Anonymous

09:26

People often avoid using verbs like attract when it comes to animals because it can imply a romantic or sexual interest

Maulik V

edited thrice actually

Damkerng T.

I'm not saying that your sentence is entirely wrong; it's just weird.

Anonymous

I love thrice. It's a great word.

Anonymous

People tend to use phrases like three times these days, but thrice is so fun to say!

Maulik V

And these days... I'm on my Xperia Z

:(

Damkerng T.

09:27

Ah, I've seen its ad.

Maulik V

Crystal, possession 's was simply great!

@DamkerngT. what's the problem in this?

Damkerng T.

I think music could stun us, some fact could stun us, but a product, hmm...

Maulik V

@snailboat This has come from a professional's mind. I'm a doc and always prescribe... One tab thrice a day haha

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. I should've said punctual.

Anonymous

What is the sentence with stun?

Damkerng T.

09:31

0

Q: How do I express this? "Did it (to) you?"

Suppose I encountered a unique product yesterday and I'm very impressed. I'm now meeting my friend after two days. She has also seen the product. Yeah! That product really stunned me. _________________? Fill in the blank. I want to ask her whether or not she too got stunned. My confusion...

grammar

Anonymous

The derived adjective stunning can be freely applied to physical objects. "It was stunning."

Maulik V

Can't something stun you?

A simple verb it is

Damkerng T.

A-ha! It was stunning or It is stunning makes more sense.

That product stunned me sounds (to me) like you don't think it's a great product anymore.

I think what you probably meant is It was stunning. It's a stunning product.

Anonymous

@MaulikV Hmm. Probably.

Anonymous

But I don't think it would be my first choice of wording

Maulik V

09:34

hhmm but did you see the quesstion?

Okay, take attract

I saw the new iphone, it attracted me. Did it you?

Damkerng T.

I think you want something else which is not related to the example.

Let's see..

Maulik V

check the iphone exmaple

Anonymous

Let me read the question

Damkerng T.

> I went to the Mall yesterday, and while I was looking around, a PR slapped me!

> Did it happen to you?

Maulik V

There happening is an event

Consider iphone example

You saw it first on Sunday. I saw it on Tuesday

And we are meeting on Wednesday... now check this...

Damkerng T.

09:36

What iPhone example?

Maulik V

I saw the latest iPhone. It really attracted me. Did it you?

Anonymous

Although you can use phrases like that, I'd be more inclined to use an adjective.

Maulik V

like? @crystal

Anonymous

"It really attracted me" is possible but I think not an especially usual way of putting it

Damkerng T.

He just wants to force the past tense, I think.

Maulik V

09:38

The question is about filling the blank that asks 'did the smartphone attract you the way it did me?"

getting?

you biggies! :P

Anonymous

Informally? "It looked really cool" "It looked sweet" "It looked amazing" "I can't wait for it to come out" "I really want one now" etc.

Anonymous

I don't know if I can manage to fill in the blanks the way you want, though

Damkerng T.

I guess by "Did it you?", you meant you wanted to say, "I assume that you've seen it. And I'd like to know if what happened to me happened to you too."

Anonymous

Did it you is ungrammatical. — snailplane 3 mins ago

Maulik V

YESSS thanks!

true... it attracted me. did it you?

:P

grammatical is - It attracted me. Did it attract you as well?

Damkerng T.

09:40

I was to come up with something in the pattern "Did it ABCXYZ you?", and I think I couldn't think of a really good one.

But your order is "don't repeat the verb".

Maulik V

yes, that's the pattern I want. Check my last message here. I don't want to write the whole sentence - did it attract you as well?

so finding for something short... did it (to) you?

Anonymous

I might say "I was really drawn to it." instead of "It attracted me"

Damkerng T.

Even saying "Was it the same to you" doesn't sound right in that context, I think.

Maulik V

Crystal... that's secondary...

exactly..Damkerng, yo ugot it

Anonymous

The only way I can think to meet your requirements is something like

Anonymous

09:43

"How about you?"

Maulik V

That's it!

Crystal yo utoo got it!

Damkerng T.

I think it means something different.

Maulik V

so there's no way you can say 'It attracted me; did it you as well?'

How about you is perfect...

Damkerng T.

I remember once Johny Depp said M. Night gave him an interview script that he had to say, "blah blah blah" and ended it with "Don't you think?"

Maulik V

But see the limitations...

Nico

09:45

@MaulikV May I ask you a question? Why do you use the name Crystal?

Maulik V

@Nico because I like that name! :)

I believe in transparency...so calling someone by name makes me feel happier ;) what's your real name, btw!

Anonymous

@MaulikV That feels kind of borderline when you put it all together

Anonymous

Gapping is usually limited to coordination

Maulik V

I had finished that work in time. Could you? BUT It attracted me, did it you?

Anonymous

>Alice performed the Schubert and [ Helen ~~performed~~ the Rachmaninov ].

Nico

09:48

@MaulikV In some countries using someone's first name without permission comes across as rude.

Maulik V

Or better... She slapped me, did she you?

Anonymous

@MaulikV I would never omit the verb there. "She slapped me, did she slap you, too?"

Maulik V

yes, that's what the question is all about

Nico

In the past I made the faux-pas of calling a German professor by his first name.

Later on, I learned that now even his PhD students would use his first name.

Maulik V

Thanks for the input Nico.

Damkerng T.

09:50

I would wait until they say "You can call me ...", first.

Maulik V

It's difficult to learn the culture sitting million miles away

:(

Nico

In my case, I like people to use my first name. That's why I use it here.

Maulik V

all the cultures* I mean

Nico

@MaulikV It is. I wouldn't have imagined Germans take this things so seriously. :S

Anonymous

I'm just a snail boat.

Maulik V

09:51

@snailboat Roger that!

And sorry

Damkerng T.

@Nico I would. I worked with Manfred for a year and I never called him Manny because he didn't say so.

Maulik V

In India, it's damn common

In fact, keeping alias makes a person doubtful lol

The privacy rules in other countries and India are poles apart1

Nico

@DamkerngT. Apparently in Germany, there is this rule that the person with the higher status is the one to offer the use of first names. If both persons have the same status and one is a woman, then the woman is the one to make the offer. I don't know the rule when both are men :p.

Anonymous

In Japanese culture, many people are reluctant to use their real names online

Damkerng T.

@Nico I'm not sure about the status. We just worked together. But I'm sure that he was bigger than me literally. :)

Anonymous

09:56

Pseudonymity is more common in Japanese online than in English

Maulik V

That is probably because many fraud people put fancy names on the social media, hiding their identities and played filthy games. The real name is always preferred to ensure that he/she is the real one..but that's all different.

Anonymous

I don't really use social media

Maulik V

In fact, if you travel to India and call yourself Jack and if people find some other name on your passport, they'll never trust you!

Nico

I like anonymity!

... afk..

Maulik V

@Nico It's suspicious behavior here

:)

So a thing learned, a thing shared... good one!

haha

@CopperKettle hi buddy, what's up?

CopperKettle

10:02

All fine, thanks, Maulik! How are you?

Maulik V

Me? Free flowing ;)

but trust me on that 'definite' article for company names haha

CopperKettle

(0:

Maulik V

I'm pretty sure about it. Had read in some veryauthentic book. Forgot actually

CopperKettle

THe articles are the hardest thing to a Russian, since there's no articles in our language

Damkerng T.

I wonder what the Chicago Manual of Style would say about it.

@CopperKettle Same here. :)

Anonymous

10:04

Ah, that rule ("use an article when it's part of a proper noun") is pretty good as a basic rule

Maulik V

@CopperKettle wow...lucky you!

CopperKettle

My friend who teaches biology in USA for years still makes trivial mistakes in article usage

Anonymous

It's not an absolute rule or anything.

Maulik V

More than 30% of students in Master English at Oxford do mistakes in placing proper articles... a study :)

Masters in English*

CopperKettle

native students?

Anonymous

10:07

I think we have a tendency to parse proper names whenever possible, so it's awkward to say Sansom's An Historical Grammar of Japanese. We instead want to alter the title and say Sansom's Historical Grammar of Japanese*

CopperKettle

Dicken's Tale of Two Cities

Anonymous

Likewise, I tend to say CGEL rather than the CGEL, although I could say either one

Damkerng T.

I think its full name has the in it.

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes, right, you could say "Dickens's A Tale of Two Cities", but we often wouldn't

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It does.

Damkerng T.

10:08

(I still can't remember its full name. Probably because I don't have it. Ahh... It's The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language)

CopperKettle

Randolph Quirck's book treats articles at great length

Anonymous

Wait, let me fix that apostrophe

Anonymous

There we go.

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes, he sure does! He makes significant use of the "zero article" idea

Anonymous

10:10

Linguists debate whether there is such a beast

Anonymous

But it can be useful as a concept

Damkerng T.

Sometimes I wonder which explanation is better for go to school, between the mass noun and the zero article.

Anonymous

Quirk et al. (1985) is a great book, though, with explanations for and descriptions of a huge amount of English

CopperKettle

Yes, I like the fact that it lacks bullet points and flashy pictures and just explains everything.

Anonymous

It does have some good charts.

Damkerng T.

10:20

But... but... I like pictures.

2

Yay! (about the charts)

Anonymous

As I recall, the Dickens's we just used (and almost discussed) and Dickens' were in one of them :-)

Damkerng T.

Btw, @CopperKettle, I think your question is related to what appears to be quite popular lately in this chat room: backshift.

CopperKettle

Meaning, one could say "The plant's fertilizer output in H1 2014 had amounted to 10 000 tonnes, which was 20% higher in year-on-year terms." ?

Damkerng T.

Not the past perfect, I think. Not without a proper context. -- What I meant was about the shifting of is to was.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I liked pictures too when I first learned English. (0:

Damkerng T.

10:24

@CopperKettle I still like them. :D

CopperKettle

I too, but when some hard things are explained, they distract me. (0;

Damkerng T.

Try some dictionaries? In one so-so dictionary, it has the example: "she scrubbed furiously at the plates." — F.E. 4 hours ago

I LOL when I read that! :D

Now I'm curious which dictionary is that so-so one. :)

Anonymous

Google sez: the ODE

Damkerng T.

Aww... ODE is so-so. Hehehe!

@snailboat Oh, I remember what I wanted to tell you when I read your recent meta post. I think the undesirable comments-come-before-answers problem can be partially solved by asking SE to hide non-upvoted comments after some period of time (e.g. 3 days after the OP posted the question).

(I imagine that that's probably not too much to ask.)

Damkerng T.

10:40

did you check the basic rules? However, has been talks about the things that just happened. was in this sense is more past. FIR was registered - it's an old story. FIR has been registered - compared to was, it's a new story. The news' effect is still there. — Maulik V 4 hours ago

Hmm... Very close, but not quite, I think. Maybe it's possible to think of it that way.

user8153

@StoneyB I see. But is this "what" a relative pronoun?

Anonymous

@user8153 It's both a relative word and head of a noun phrase

user8153

no no

I was asking about that sentence.

which I lost somewhere in the stream of this conversation.

@snailboat know what it is that makes you happy.

Anonymous

Yes, I clicked through to the sentence before I responded.

user8153

can this "what" be interpreted as a relative pronoun?

like This is what I want.

hello>

@snailboat why>

I don't understand

Nico

11:12

@user8153 I hope this helps. I was once told that "what" is the result of combining "the thing(s)" and the relative pronoun "which/that/ø". So "this is what I want" is similar to "this is the thing (that) I want".

user8153

No

I understand that

Damkerng T.

11:28

Just for fun...

> I know what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what it is that is what makes you confused!

Nico

"What it is that" looks to me as the result of combining "what" and an it-cleft.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what the best way to analyze it is. I think it depends on which grammar book we have.

(It's too straightforward for me to analyze. Which suggests that I shouldn't analyze it. Analyzing something we think trivial is very risky. It's too easy to overlook something.)

Suppose that I take the risk. I seem to think of it like this: [I know what] [It(what) is (something)] [that(something) is ...]

I think it's also possible to think of [what it is] as the inversion of [it is what]. -- StoneyB might call this pie-piping. I'm not sure.

(Searching for it on ELL, I found he mentioned pied-piping.)

Ah, it seems like our [what it is] is not a pied-piped thing.

Nico

11:44

The reason why I think it is an it-cleft is because "it is that" is optional in that sentence:

> From the point of view of the omnipresent control system, exactly what [...] you want is almost irrelevant.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Agree with "it is that" is optional (and thus unnecessary).

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Pied-piping is when other words follow a fronted wh-word to the front of a clause

Damkerng T.

I found one of his answers. He made it clear that fronting only the wh-word isn't called pied-piping.

0

Q: Find out the word that must be changed

I have a question in my test for which I can't find a proper answer. I need to find the word which does not fit in the sentence The chimpanzee possesses hand tool (a), the sticky termite stick, with which (b) it (c) digs termites out of (d) logs and stumps. It seems pretty ok for me.

word-usage usage

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Right, do you understand why?

Damkerng T.

I know that we normally close homework questions, but I think we have something better than saying "proofreading".

Anonymous

11:55

Pied Piper of Hamelin

The Pied Piper of Hamelin (German: Rattenfänger von Hameln, the Rat-Catcher of Hamelin) is the subject of a legend concerning the departure or death of a great number of children from the town of Hamelin (Hameln), Lower Saxony, Germany, in the Middle Ages. The earliest references describe a piper, dressed in multicolored ("pied") clothing, leading the children away from the town never to return. In the 16th century the story was expanded into a full narrative, in which the piper is a rat-catcher hired by the town to lure rats away with his magic pipe. When the citizenry refuses to pay for this...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably not. A-ha! Neat!

Anonymous

"Pied piping" is a figure of speech referring specifically to the other words following the wh-word away

Damkerng T.

I should start building up my catalog of replies for ELL. :)

Anonymous

Catalog of replies?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat A catalog of nice phrases for those questions, so I can paste them as comments before voting to close. :D

Considering that the OP of that homework question is a new user, I don't want to chase them away by just simply voting to close.

Anonymous

11:59

A-ha

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