English Language Learners

Anonymous

18:01

A great question! One that might be asked to good effect on ELU or ELL proper rather than in chat :-)

Nico

ok, I will

Damkerng T.

Just don't make a mistake some ESL teachers here do. They say "Don't lie your mom."

Anonymous

Are these ESL teachers also non-native speakers?

Damkerng T.

Sadly, they are.

Anonymous

Well, there's nothing wrong with a non-native speaker teaching something they have proficiency in

Anonymous

18:03

But that sentence strikes me as something a native speaker wouldn't say

Damkerng T.

Which makes their proficiency doubtful.

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

When I was in school, my Spanish and French teachers weren't native speakers

Anonymous

My junior high Spanish teacher was also my junior high French teacher :-)

Damkerng T.

I don't mind if they're non-native, but it's extremely rare to find a good non-native one.

Anonymous

18:05

There are many very good non-native speakers. But

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hah!

Anonymous

There are a couple caveats there.

Anonymous

One, there are many more non-native speakers who have not mastered their L2s than those who have, because mastery is very hard, particularly when the language distance is great

Anonymous

And it takes a lot of time for many people

Anonymous

Two, there are certain places where you find a much smaller percentage of proficient speakers

Damkerng T.

18:07

Like, the place where I live, for example. :D

Anonymous

Perhaps in part due to education systems, perhaps in part due to a lack of opportunity to use a language enough to master it

Anonymous

In Japan, everyone studies English, but very few people become fluent.

Anonymous

But you don't have to become fluent―you have to learn to recognize English words and pass written tests about grammar

Anonymous

(Largely written English words)

Damkerng T.

Ahh!

Anonymous

18:09

There's a culture of teaching to the tests

Damkerng T.

Like their N proficiency tests.

Anonymous

It's like that.

Anonymous

The JLPT (Japanese Language Proficiency Test)

Anonymous

Hey, I can tell you the Japanese name now.

Anonymous

日本語能力試験（にほんご　のうりょく　しけん）

Damkerng T.

18:10

I can't recall its name, so it's just N something to me. :-)

Anonymous

日本語（にほんご） Japanese language―lit. 日本（にほん） "Japan" + 語（ご） "Language"

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the full name.

Anonymous

This is a very important word for you.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

In Japanese, you'll find a great many noun-noun compounds like these that are translated as adjective-noun phrases in English.

Anonymous

18:11

It's literally "Japan language", and Thai is タイ語（たいご） lit. "Thai language", etc.

Anonymous

ローマ字（ろーまじ） is literally "Roma Letters" (Roma = Rome)

Damkerng T.

It's the same in Thai. We use the same [thai] for both Thai and Thailand.

Anonymous

Noun-noun, not adjective-noun. So taken literally, it's not Japan ese language, and it's not Roma n letters

Anonymous

But people get confused with English and call them "romanji" instead of "romaji"

Anonymous

Because they think "Roman" (adjective) rather than "Roma" (noun)

Damkerng T.

18:13

Ah, I did that too. And you had to correct me. :D

Anonymous

The last part, 試験（しけん）, would be a very important word for you if you were taking classes.

Anonymous

試験（しけん） is "test"

Damkerng T.

The kanji looks a little complicated, but its sound is okay.

Anonymous

Those are both common words: 日本語（にほんご） and 試験（しけん）

Anonymous

The middle word is a little bit less common: 能力（のうりょく） lit. "ability" (proficiency)

Anonymous

18:14

So the whole thing

Anonymous

日本語（にほんご）能力（のうりょく）試験（しけん）

Anonymous

≒ jlpt

Damkerng T.

Oh, a new symbol!

Anonymous

≒ is おおよそ and means "is roughly equal to; is approximately"

Anonymous

I think the symbol is used more in Japan than in the US. I'm not sure about the rest of the world

Damkerng T.

18:16

I've never used it. :)

Anonymous

Wikipedia defines ≒ as 「ほとんど等しい」

Damkerng T.

Ah, I have good news!

BBC Radio extends the listen to archived programs period from one week to four!

Oh! The Story of Yonosuke seems to be a good movie, but probably sad. Have you seen it?

Anonymous

I have not

user116848

18:50

Hello! peeps

F.E.

@snailboat Yeah, I noticed that too.

@snailboat "Too many trees, (I've got) only one ax."

Anonymous

I am one of the two downvoters on that answer

Anonymous

Although I think he's edited it a couple dozen times (literally) since I voted

F.E.

@snailboat And it still ain't right.

Anonymous

@F.E. No, it's not

F.E.

18:57

@snailboat I'm the other one.

Anonymous

But I think it's closer than what it was before…

user116848

@F.E. Hi Tiger and Ms Boat

Anonymous

Hello!

F.E.

Actually, there's only 4 posts in there that I didn't downvote.

Hello!

Anonymous

But I would characterize a lot of what he calls proximity agreement as a class of speech errors

user263485

18:58

Hi, I'm here.

Anonymous

I don't believe everything that people refer to as proximal agreement is an error

user116848

@user263485 Hello!

F.E.

@snailboat His definition (way before, and even now) is not the definition given in most sources that I've seen.

Anonymous

One interesting class of proximal agreement is agreement with a disjunctive subject (X or Y is/are)

Anonymous

(Here using Arnold Zwicky's terminology)

F.E.

19:00

@snailboat Neither does the 2002 CGEL. :)

Anonymous

Different speakers have different strategies for agreement when the disjuncts have different grammatical number in a disjunctive subject

Anonymous

Some speakers prefer agreement with greater number, others prefer agreement with the closer disjunct

Anonymous

So some people suggest "Well, put whichever one is greater in number on the right", which makes both of those camps happy

F.E.

Especially if that coordinate NP is in an existential construction. :)

Anonymous

I still haven't dared write an answer about existentials

F.E.

19:02

But when the grammatical subject is not a dummy pronoun, . . . , er, the verb don't go around trying to agree with the PC.

An existential construction post was one of my first on this site. (You'll notice that I disagree with CGEL on that specific topic.)

Anonymous

People constantly surprise me with what they think is true about agreement

F.E.

I still run into pedants that think that the subject is, er, weird stuff. Like the "by phrase" in a passive, etc.

Anonymous

To be fair, it's a complex topic, and it's difficult to get the details right, and when you get to the edge cases speakers sometimes have differing judgment… it's hard!

Anonymous

But I think it's equally fair to suggest that you shouldn't just make up rules off the top of your head without at least examining evidence, or potentially even consulting a reference grammar

Anonymous

("Consulting a reference grammar" is something most answerers seem unwilling to do)

F.E.

19:05

But there are some syntactic diagnostic tests that can often be helpful (e.g. subject-aux inversion via an interrogative), and most often, it seems that "pedants" aren't even aware of them.

Anonymous

I think that a lot of people aren't familiar with the concept of syntactic tests

F.E.

I've had a bunch of run-ins with pedants who keep misidentifying the subject of a clause. And you should've seen their profiles, so impressive! :D

user116848

@F.E. So did you write anything about backshifting?

F.E.

@Arrowfar Nothing new. Probably won't write any new post on ELU for a good while.

user116848

@F.E. No I mean here on ELL.

F.E.

19:08

Not on backshift.

user116848

So why not?

user116848

It is in books, that's why?

F.E.

It hasn't come up.

I've written two posts on ELL related to inversion.

user116848

Do you have the links? Apart from your tag on backshifting.

F.E.

That tag on backshifting on my account can get you to them all, I think.

I don't think anyone else on ELU has written a significant post on the topic of backshift, other than stuff on indirect reported speech.

user116848

19:12

So this 'tag' is same for ELL and ELU I guess, right?

F.E.

And again I say: I was the one that created that tag "backshifting" on ELU.

@Arrowfar I have no idea.

user116848

@F.E. Yeah you mentioned it in the past. Good tag!

F.E.

@Arrowfar What I'm implying about that, . . . , is that, er, how come it was that that kind of tag wasn't already available . . . (a rhetorical question)

user116848

Oh, sorry I was trying just now how to confirm that I have pinged someone. Were you getting the sound on my ping again and again?

F.E.

There are 3 major uses for a past-tense in English. There are 2 past-tenses: primary past-tense (preterite), secondary past-tense (perfect). The 3 major uses for a past-tense are: past time, modal remoteness, backshift.

Anonymous

19:17

I have the ping sound disabled, so if you ping me, I'll only see it if I happen to check chat.

user116848

okay

user116848

@F.E. modal remoteness----> is backshift , right? or something else. I forgot.

Damkerng T.

Modal remoteness is about "unreal" thinking.

It probably includes "politeness" usage. (I'm not sure how CGEL classifies it.)

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Modally remote, which includes counter-factuality.

Damkerng T.

What does CGEL say about "politeness" usage of the past tense?

F.E.

19:24

@DamkerngT. I think 2002 CGEL puts politeness preterite in within past-time use. (Though, this is debatable, imo.)

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks!

F.E.

I think part of their argument is that the speaker wants to distance the request from the present time (now), and thus, the request doesn't sound so blunt or confrontational.

Damkerng T.

I usually think of this usage of the past tense (for "politeness") as another category.

Anonymous

The Japanese past tense is sometimes used to express politeness rather than to locate events in time in the past

Anonymous

Martin's reference grammar of Japanese doesn't attempt to explain why it's used for that purpose

Damkerng T.

19:28

Hah! That's new to me!

Anonymous

Of course, Martin wasn't as much of a theoretical linguist as Huddleston―his focus was on description, and he was willing to get his theory as messy as seemed convenient to him if it helped his description

Damkerng T.

My L1 has too many words to make things sound more polite, so recasting requests as past-time is unnecessary. (As far as I can tell.)

Anonymous

This is somewhat dismaying at times, for me at least. I like neat theories :-)

Anonymous

Japanese has many categories of polite speech.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I like neat ones too. :)

Anonymous

19:31

Generally, there are five classes of polite speech forms in Japanese

Damkerng T.

Oh, they formalized the classes!

Anonymous

But there are additional ways to be polite besides using the appropriate forms

Anonymous

One of the main ways to make something more polite is by being indirect

Anonymous

I think there's some sort of cross-linguistic relationship between indirectness and politeness.

Damkerng T.

nods

One typical phrase in my L1 is "I don't know if you will ..."

Anonymous

19:34

@DamkerngT. You've probably been taught です and ます already. That is a basic category called 丁寧語（ていねいご） (lit. "polite speech")

Anonymous

For now, that is practically the only one you need to know.

Anonymous

You can learn the rest when it comes up in context. I mean, in theory.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I've seen that, though I think I still have no firm grasp on them.

Anonymous

The system of polite, honorific, humble, respectful, formal (etc.) speech as used in Japanese is actually rather complicated and native speakers don't acquire it in the form that some people might think is desirable

Anonymous

So there are quite popular books teaching native speakers how to use it

Damkerng T.

19:36

Hah!

Anonymous

We can refer to this sort of speech collectively as 敬語（けいご）

Anonymous

(Note that you can be "formal" without being "polite")

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So even if you spend a lot of time with the language, you might not pick it all up just by learning in context.

Anonymous

Since native speakers don't either.

Anonymous

19:38

Depending on your goals, that might be just fine :-)

Anonymous

(I think the long-term trend is toward losing this complicated system)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat This is probably the same in my L1. In the highest register, we rarely use reverence words and phrases reserved for royal related things, so as a result, it's quite typical that a native speaker would have no idea how to speak in this register properly.

Nico

@snailboat Hi! I'm back. I found a link that answers the question I has about "to lie":

grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/progressive.htm

To lie is dynamic because it can (in this case it has to) be used in a progressive form.

Anonymous

That is one test

Anonymous

Although, to be honest, it's somewhat circular

Anonymous

19:41

Earlier, I said:

Anonymous

5 hours ago, by snailboat

So it resists the simple present under ordinary circumstances, but works fine in the present progressive ("I'm lying on the floor" rather than "I lie on the floor")

Anonymous

We can turn that around:

Anonymous

It resists the simple present under ordinary circumstances, but works fine in the present progressive ("I'm lying on the floor" rather than "I lie on the floor"), so it can't be stative

Nico

I imagine that the reason it has to be used in a progressive form is because it is a durative verb.

Anonymous

It's not 100% true that the present progressive needs to be used, and the simple present can't be.

Anonymous

19:45

That's why I phrased it with the word "resists"

Anonymous

But it is more or less true that in this case you should use the present progressive, not the simple present

Nico

Is there a counterexample?

Damkerng T.

Maybe see.

Nico

It could be interpreted as see having durative and punctual uses.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure about the classification. But I think see could be used in either the present simple or progressive.

Nico

19:49

For example:

> I see what you mean (punctual)

> I'm seeing you (durative)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think I don't think of I see what you mean as punctual. (I could be wrong.)

Anonymous

@Nico Let's say I'm demonstrating something to you and narrating in real time. "First, I stand on top of the podium. Next, I raise my arms. I bend my arms at the elbow. Now, I flap my arms like a chicken and sing Ordinary World."

Nico

@DamkerngT. I'm speculating

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably the test is more effective if we don't include present narratives.

Nico

> Verbs of Bodily Sensation
> "I feel bad" and "I am feeling bad" are virtually identical in meaning.

Anonymous

19:53

@DamkerngT. Well, that's my point―you have to be a little more specific when you exclude the simple present

Nico

Taken from the link I pasted above.

Anonymous

But it's definitely a useful distinction

Anonymous

@Nico I think there is a difference

Nico

The reason beind all these questions is that I'm trying to understand the need for two classifications: punctual/durative and stative/dynamic.

Would it be wrong to say that all durative verbs are either punctual or durative?

Anonymous

Don't forget telic/atelic! :-)

Nico

19:59

I haven't :p

Anonymous

By the way, although verbs can be classified

Anonymous

We should keep in mind that these are semantic descriptions of situations, which associated with predicates

Anonymous

An atelic predicate can be turned into a telic one if we add an adjunct that sets a firm end point for the action

Anonymous

And so on

Anonymous

Many (most?) verbs can be used to express situations with various aspects

Nico

20:01

Let me rephrase the question. Can all the verbs classified as either punctual or durative?

Anonymous

Like when we have the stative "I like it", and we turn it into a dynamic verb using the progressive: "I'm liking it"

Nico

Oh noes! McDonald's is ringing in my ears!

Damkerng T.

Sounds like a Facebook context. :D

Anonymous

Generally, you can classify verbs into punctual and durative.

Nico

Is like durative or punctual?

F.E.

20:04

@snailboat Well, I added a comment which provided CGEL examples. Don't know if it will help or not.

Anonymous

Like is typically stative

cpx

Is it present perfect sentence "I am having my first driving lesson this week."?

Nico

That's why I asked

Anonymous

Durative and punctual are most commonly used to classify dynamic verbs

Nico

:)

I just wanted to confirm that.

Anonymous

20:05

When you turn it into a dynamic verb using the progressive: "I'm liking it" you specifically make it durative

Damkerng T.

@cpx Its tense is the present continuous (or progressive).

cpx

I found this on englishtenses.com/tenses/present_perfect

Anonymous

@cpx This is not the perfect auxiliary have. There is no verb following have. This is lexical have.

Nico

@snailboat Thanks a lot. I think I now get it.

cpx

I cannot believe how the website dedicated to learning English tenses is actually giving a wrong example.

Anonymous

20:08

@cpx Sadly, it happens.

Anonymous

Some people are well-meaning but make mistakes.

cpx

I'll have to be more careful.

Damkerng T.

Even teachers make mistakes too.

2 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

Just don't make a mistake some ESL teachers here do. They say "Don't lie your mom."

(I should've written the same mistake. Btw, here means the place where I live.)

Nico

> to err is human, to forgive divine

Anonymous

@Nico We say that, and yet we all judge each other anyway ;-)

Damkerng T.

20:12

nods -- Just be careful to choose what to believe on the web. :)

Nico

theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php

Damkerng T.

Ahh... And I thought they meant something else when they said "flat earth" (or "the earth is flat").

> Mr Davis now believes "the Earth is flat and horizontally infinite - it stretches horizontally forever".
"And it is at least 9,000 kilometres deep", he adds.

:D

Nico

Then, the sun must be a disc!

I rather think the earth is a disc world:

Discworld

Discworld is a comic fantasy book series written by the English writer Terry Pratchett, set on the fictional Discworld, a flat disc balanced on the backs of four elephants which, in turn, stand on the back of a giant turtle, Great A'Tuin. The books frequently parody, or take inspiration from, J. R. R. Tolkien, Robert E. Howard, H. P. Lovecraft and William Shakespeare, as well as mythology, folklore and fairy tales, often using them for satirical parallels with current cultural, political and scientific issues. The series is popular, with more than 80 million books sold in 37 languages. Since the...

Damkerng T.

Ahh... The Wee Free Men

Nico

"the discworld is a flat disc balanced on the backs of four elephants which, in turn, stand on the back of a giant turtle, Great A'Tuin"

Damkerng T.

20:25

Neat!

Nico

I haven't read anything from Terry Prachett for a while... all this talking of the discworld makes me want to read some.

Anonymous

Discworld is great.

Anonymous

Not every book in the series reaches quite the same lofty heights, but the series as a whole is excellent.

Anonymous

His other work is excellent, too. I recommend Good Omens

Nico

20:40

Good Omens

Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch (1990) is a World Fantasy Award nominated novel written in collaboration between the English authors Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. The book is a comedy about the birth of the son of Satan, the coming of the End Times and the attempts of the angel Aziraphale and the demon (Anthony J) Crowley to avert them, having become accustomed to their comfortable situations in the human world. A subplot features the growing up of the Antichrist, Adam, and his gang, and the gathering of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—War, Famine, Pollution...

Anonymous

Discworld has several sub-series, the most prominent of which is the series of books about the Ankh-Morpork City Watch.

Anonymous

Another of which is about Death.

Anonymous

I particularly like the stories about Death. Two of my favorite Discworld novels, Hogfather and Thief of Time, fit into that category.

Anonymous

@Nico That's the one! :-)

Nico

I can't find the ones I bought (I must have lent them). I do remember some were about Death. I also remeber reading the first ones in the series, and some about the witches (Equal rites).

Anonymous

20:45

Ahh, yes

Anonymous

The first two books, although I enjoyed them quite a bit, were rather different than most of the rest of the series, and I think most people think they weren't quite as good

Anonymous

You could say something similar about Equal Rites. It was another early book, somewhat different in character from later books, and conspicuously ignored in the rest of the continuity (although Discworld is somewhat short on continuity to begin with)

Anonymous

But Granny Weatherwax is a great character.

Anonymous

All of the witches are.

Anonymous

There are also some cartoon and live action adaptations. I thought the Hogfather adaptation was particularly fun to watch

user8153

22:35

@StoneyB HI, is this grammatical?

From the point of view of the omnipresent control system, exactly what it is that you want is almost irrelevant.

StoneyB

23:06

@user8153 It's grammatical, and it has an evident meaning - which, however, doesn't match up to anything in my experience :)

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