English Language Learners

user116848

01:29

@F.E. , @snailboat Hey! See this discussion! It's between me, Cerbs and tchrist about backshifting and tell what you think :D chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/16687219#16687219

user116848

And ping me if you want :)

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Sometimes the present isn't possible―generally if you think it's no longer true

Anonymous

Other times both present and past forms are possible

Anonymous

So the sentences aren't the same, but in some cases either can be used.

Cerberus

in English Language & Usage, 3 mins ago, by Cerberus

Anonymous

01:36

When backshift is optional is covered fairly well in both Quirk et al. 1985 and Huddleston & Pullum 2002

Anonymous

As I said last month:

Anonymous

Jun 21 at 22:53, by snailboat

@Arrowfar Backshift is often optional.

Cerberus

in English Language & Usage, 12 mins ago, by Cerberus

It's optional. Harmony of tenses and such.

This game is too easy.

Anonymous

"Harmony of tenses" is a nice phrase.

user116848

@snailboat So here (see below) you think both sentences are okay?

user116848

01:41

in English Language & Usage, 20 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Is this sentence grammatical: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked" Or should I say it like this: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike"

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Both are grammatical. I'd probably say the former.

user116848

Former to mean present, right?

Anonymous

Former in this case means "the one on the left" (the one you said earlier). Latter means "the one on the right" (the one you said later).

Anonymous

The pair of words former and latter are often used to describe a pair of alternatives, one that is said earlier and one that is said later.

user116848

Yeah I know that. I meant to mean present hypothetical situation?

Anonymous

01:44

Oh, you're asking what meaning I would assign to the former sentence

user116848

Yes

Anonymous

Yes, it could be used with present time reference

Cerberus

I.e. a timeless fact.

Anonymous

Timeless facts are a good example of when backshift is optional

user116848

Thanks. So "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked" can be used to mean present. Unlike what tchrist said that it is past.

Anonymous

01:45

Mar 14 at 7:44, by snailboat

Although you don't have to backshift if something is "timeless"

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:45, by snailboat

"Their teacher had told them that the earth moves around the sun."

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:46, by Damkerng T.

Hmm... but suppose that if someone backshifted it, would they be wrong?

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:47, by snailboat

@DamkerngT. No, it's just optional, not wrong.

user116848

Yeah I saw the New Jersey question

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:47, by Damkerng T.

> Their teacher had told them that the earth moved around the sun.

Anonymous

01:46

I didn't, so I don't know what you're talking about

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:47, by Damkerng T.

I guess the mechanical way is rather safe, generally.

user116848

7

Q: "He didn't know where New Jersey was"

I know the past tense carries the past tense in every dependent clause, but referring specifically to places or to things that are eternal, like the Earth, seems a bit weird and therefore we sometimes (I believe incorrectly) say He didn't know that New Jersey was actually in the East Coast. ...

Anonymous

Mar 14 at 7:49, by snailboat

As long as you don't claim that the rule must be followed. Instead, present it as a rule which will get you to the right answer

user116848

I see

Anonymous

Pedagogical grammars sometimes present simplified rules of that form: "You must do X!" (No, you don't need to, but if you do you'll manage to say something correctly, so it could be a useful rule for learners anyway)

Anonymous

01:48

So-called "baby rules", which many learners outgrow

Cerberus

in English Language & Usage, 3 mins ago, by tchrist

> But Jimmy knew that not everything is revealed at once.

Anonymous

The problem is when you tell learners that these rules are, well, rules!, rather than claiming they're helpful guidelines or recommendations

Cerberus

This one is interesting, though ^.

user116848

@snailboat Yeah I get it now. But you saw tchrist comments that my first sentence alludes to past situation. So that confused me.

user116848

in English Language & Usage, 29 mins ago, by tchrist

@Arrowfar You want the second one.

Anonymous

01:51

That's okay, he can describe it how he likes, and I'll describe it how I like :-) I don't really want to join and argue with him right now

Anonymous

I'm just giving you my take because you asked for it

Cerberus

Wise.

user116848

Yeah you are right :D

user116848

:)

Cerberus

I'm afraid Tchrist is in a (very) small minority here.

Anonymous

01:56

6

Q: Submitting Answers that merely answer the question

Lately I've noticed quite a few answers that provide an answer to the O.P.'s question, but provide no supporting information. Sometimes, comments are left, asking for more information; other times, these answers have been flagged by users, and the mod team has converted some of these answers in...

discussion

Anonymous

As stated, this is kind of funny to me.

Anonymous

He goes on to say:

Anonymous

> If you think substantiating an answer in this manner is too much trouble, then I would recommend just leaving a comment instead. As a community, we're not just trying to answer questions, but we are striving to supply reliable answers.

Anonymous

Basically the opposite of what I suggested, which is that answers should be answers even if they're short, and we should stop converting them to comments when we dislike them

Anonymous

But I'm more or less used to the mandatory comment-answer policy on ELL now

Anonymous

01:58

I know not to leave short answers, since they'll get converted to comments

Anonymous

It's rather un-Stack-Exchange-y, but that's okay with me. I can leave more answer-comments :-)

Anonymous

The only frustrating thing is, sometimes, when people leave flatly wrong answer-comments which stay forever above the actual answers people can vote on

Cerberus

Ah, rules and bureaucracy...

@snailboat Perhaps negative votes should be possible on comments?

Anonymous

02:15

@Cerberus People have suggested that a lot

Anonymous

It's always been declined.

Anonymous

You can flag wrong answer comments as not constructive, but those flags are always declined

Anonymous

So right now, the solution is to engage in a potentially protracted discussion with the original commenter, which appears forever above the actual answers

Cerberus

Hehe.

Yay!

Anonymous

Occasionally I get the urge to say "Could you please leave your comment as an answer so I can downvote it?"

Cerberus

02:18

@snailboat Either way, comments are in small print, so people will probably look to the actual answers for a more "definitive" answer.

Anonymous

But of course, I never do since it wouldn't actually help anything :-)

Cerberus

Haha.

I understand the feeling.

Anonymous

I left a contrarian answer, even though I don't follow the rules I suggested myself

Anonymous

0

A: Submitting Answers that merely answer the question

No, answers should be answers. Right now, we have a culture of answering questions in comments. Many of those answers are flatly wrong, and we have no way to remove them from the site because Not Constructive flags are regularly declined on incorrect answer-comments. You're encouraging this b...

Anonymous

(But I made sure to point that out in the answer)

Anonymous

02:21

I mean, ultimately it doesn't matter a whole lot, but…

Cerberus

02:35

Haha you devil!

F.E.

03:16

> Is this sentence grammatical: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked." Or should I say it like this: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike." @Arrowfar

user116848

@F.E. Hello!

user116848

Yeah there is a debate about this

user116848

@F.E. tchrist says to use 'present' (second sentence) one I and others (snail, Cerbs) say that backshifted one is good. What do you think?

F.E.

Let's assume for the moment that your sentence involves the use of preterites for modal remoteness. And so, an open conditional version could probably be:

1) "If I have more time I will tell you guys what I like and what I dislike."

Now, let's attempt to convert that to use modal remoteness--with the minimum amount of effort or changes:

2) "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike."

A speaker would use the #2 version when he ain't got the time, or doesn't have the interest in telling you, what he likes or doesn't like.

Note that the subordinate clause has not used the backshift preterites for "like" and "dislike".

user116848

Why?

user116848

03:23

liked and disliked?

Anonymous

I said that both are okay, by the way :-)

F.E.

Let's see what the modally remote version with backshift would look like:

3) "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked."

user116848

@snailboat Yeah thanks :D But I want to hear what FE says :D

Anonymous

@Arrowfar And I have in no way interfered with his ability to communicate

user116848

@snailboat :) haha thanks

user116848

03:26

@F.E. I am listening.

F.E.

A general rule of thumb is that, often, the backshift version could be considered to be the default. Usually, backshift is optional. Though, there are some cases where it is strongly preferred or is strongly not allowed (and maybe some cases where its use or non-use is not optional).

Tigers got claws, and so, I got to type very carefully and very slowly.

user116848

Yes probably :D

user116848

You don't have to remove that.

user116848

in English Language & Usage, 2 hours ago, by tchrist

> But Jimmy knew that not everything is revealed at once.

user116848

@F.E. What do think about this sentence of his?

Anonymous

03:30

That is an interesting example, but it's clearly not the same as your earlier pair

F.E.

What is the context?

user116848

@snailboat "But Jimmy knew that not everything was revealed at once" This okay?

Anonymous

Well, it doesn't mean the same thing.

user116848

@F.E. No context. He just gave an example.

user116848

@snailboat So this isn't optional backshift? I thought it was.

Anonymous

03:33

Let's see what F.E. has to say :-)

user116848

Yeah :)

F.E.

How does this sound to you? "But Jimmy knew back then, when he was just a mere child of twelve, that not everything was revealed at once, especially not around Xmas time."

It is a rule-of-thumb that backshift is usually, and often, optional.

Anonymous

@F.E. Oh, that does sound good

user116848

Yeah past sounds good.

F.E.

Adding in a bit of context can help . . .

Anonymous

03:36

It is a problem sometimes discussing examples devoid of context like these because we can contextualize them differently

F.E.

Also, the original version would require "But Jimmy knew that not everything was revealed at once." -- when it is prose in a novel written using past-tense narrative mode.

user116848

So tchrist's sentence was optional backshift.

F.E.

But there are contexts when backshift might not be optional, but rather, it be strongly preferred (or required) or strongly not allowed (or not allowed). But I would have to now stop and check CGEL to find those cases, and that is work . . .

@Arrowfar Actually, it would be harder to create a context that would prefer a non-backshift version (which was the original version). This is because the matrix clause uses a preterite ("knew").

user116848

Yeah that's what I thought too.

F.E.

Many people aren't really familiar with backshift.

Lots of pedants ain't got a clue, when it comes to backshift.

user116848

03:41

Yeah I agree.

Anonymous

I always leave questions about backshift to other people like StoneyB. But sometimes people ask me specifically :-)

user116848

@snailboat But you explain it well too I guess.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Well, I can explain it sometimes.

F.E.

It's that Arrowfar's original example probably involved modal remote preterites too, and that can make things confusing when there is also backshift in there.

Then, throw in some past time use of preterites too . . . :D

I often see pedants trying to rationalize all those different preterites as all using only past time use.

Hillarity ensues. :D

I don't think I've found a decent answer in any thread that had asked about the difference between the simple past-tense and the perfect constructions.

The answers seem to assume that the preterites and perfect are only being used for time usage.

And even then, they still don't have it right (assuming only time usage was involved).

It's like they hadn't been taught about modal preterite usage or backshift preterite usage.

And they probably hadn't. :)

user116848

Nods

F.E.

03:48

> Maleficent: "Oh, look. The little beast is about to fall off the cliff." :)

user116848

@F.E. CGEL page 158 discusses that. I guess we also had a discussion in the past about that. But today I got confused again when on ELU chat someone told me to use "present tense". But it is clear now that it is more often than not optional backshift :D

user116848

Yeah you are right, people don't seem to know a lot about backshifting. I also asked many questions on this topic but someone always confuses me.

F.E.

Page 157 has a case when backshift is obligatory: [27.ii.b] when said Tuesday had gone past, "Jill said the payment was (not "is") due on Tuesday."

Oh, I'm actually about to re-read that section, as Tiger is now on page 151 in CGEL. :)

Maybe tomorrow, I'll start on that section about backshift.

I've already forgotten what I've just re-read about the perfect, again, as usual. :(

user116848

Sure take your time, and thanks in advance. Also please ping me if you write anything about this here :D

Anonymous

@F.E. It's a lot to fit in a human- or tiger-sized brain.

F.E.

04:03

Yeah, if I'm gonna squeeze something in, it'll be lasagna!

user116848

:)

Anonymous

It doesn't help that the rules for this sort of thing are so different in different languages

F.E.

@Arrowfar You know, I did write a good number of answer-posts over on ELU on backshift. Search my account with the backshift tag.

user116848

@F.E. Yeah? Do you have the links. Please give.

user116848

okay let me see....

F.E.

04:05

Tiger only use English. Tiger dialect. :)

user116848

I thought tigers snarled :D

F.E.

@Arrowfar Try this: english.stackexchange.com/…

user116848

Yeah I also found it. Thanks.

user116848

@F.E. Please ping me if you write tomorrow anything about backshift. I don't want to miss it :)

Damkerng T.

09:56

@snailboat You spoke my mind, too.

I think my rule of thumb is still an effective way to navigate the site: "ignore every answer under 3 upvotes"

We have lots of answers that seem so confident but either misleading or just plain wrong that got 0, 1, 2 upvotes. (We also have some such answers, imo, that got plenty of upvotes.)

We also have many answers which our answerers seem to "just knew it after googling". This could be either good or bad (almost always not great). It's deemed to happen, I think. The rep-point system encourages it.

Anonymous

10:12

@DamkerngT. References can be a good thing. Or not. The top Google hit isn't always an authoritative reference.

fahdijbeli

morning

Damkerng T.

That's the way I see it. Ah, I think you already knew what I think. I still remember that page from Grammar Monster or something like that.

Anonymous

One problem is that people can't always tell the difference.

Damkerng T.

Good morning!

Anonymous

@fahdijbeli Good morning!

Damkerng T.

10:13

@snailboat That's a really big problem!

Anonymous

Translating is hard.

Anonymous

Sometimes thinking about Japanese makes it hard for me to think of the right English phrase.

Anonymous

Hopefully my brain will get over that problem someday :-)

Anonymous

Stupid brain.

Damkerng T.

Hah! Ahh... I think I know how you feel. They say good translators could spend days just to pick the right word or phrase.

Anonymous

10:18

Oh, those good translators must never finish anything ;-)

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Rough translation is much easier, I think. :)

Anonymous

Sure.

Anonymous

It's a lot easier to try to express something in general terms than to come up with an exact correspondence.

Anonymous

Speaking of which, what exactly does "She threw the rock through the garden" mean?

Anonymous

Like, does it trace an arc through the air over the garden, then land on the other side past the garden?

Damkerng T.

10:21

Ah, being raised as an Asian, I was taught to avoid crossing so many things. :)

Anonymous

Is that the normal interpretation?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's what I had in mind when I said it. :)

Don't walk cross (or over) an adult. <-- very basic stuff

Don't walk over books. You'll become stupid (or at least forget everything you read from that book). :)

Anonymous

I feel like being able to visualize sets of movement is the key to understanding a lot of the little words in language, whether they're prepositions ("across" "over") or other motional words ("thrust" "careen")

Anonymous

Like "thrust" in my mind has an arrow with a relatively straight line

Damkerng T.

There are so many things I'm supposed not to do across or through something. :)

Anonymous

10:24

I feel like in learning a language you have to learn what sorts of paths and other spatial relationships to visualize in particular constructions, and assemble a library of them so you can pick out the one you want at a moment's notice

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'm not familiar with that!

Damkerng T.

Don't step on the doorstep when you walk across a door. The door spirit will take you away for the punishment. :)

All this sort of things. :)

Anonymous

Can we generalize these all to "Asian"? "Asian" is a pretty diverse set of cultures across a pretty wide landscape

Anonymous

My Thai friend I mention so often definitely identifies with "Asian" as an entire category

Damkerng T.

I think there are a lot of overlapping beliefs.

Anonymous

10:27

There are a lot of Asian cultures I'm not very familiar with

Anonymous

I know there are a number of ways that beliefs spread in the east, long ago and more recently

Anonymous

department.utcc.ac.th/thaiculture/index.php/culture/…

Damkerng T.

Oh, the one about house lizards is quite popular. :)

Anonymous

I'm running this through Google Translate. ;-)

Anonymous

Sadly, the lizard one wasn't comprehensible.

Damkerng T.

10:30

#2 is particularly a common belief.

Anonymous

Google Translate really seems to be pretty bad at Thai→English translation.

Anonymous

> 47.) Dressing table with mirror. Some mirrors or Jewry Should not be placed with the head end of the bed or above the ceiling hampered. Because the autistic sexuality. Sleep not close And often frequent nightmares

Damkerng T.

Its generalized version is if you're going to do anything and a house lizard just happens to make its sound...

Anonymous

Oh! House lizards make sound?

Damkerng T.

Don't do it. Or else, you will be really, really unfortunate.

Anonymous

10:31

The only sounds I hear from lizards here are their rapid scamperings

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think they mean that sort of sounds.

Anonymous

Oh, these are cute! Is this the sort of lizard?

Anonymous

I bet they scamper pretty quickly.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

They made an ad based on this belief some years ago.

►

Anonymous

10:32

Sad that the owl is a bad omen.

Anonymous

Owls are so neat!

Damkerng T.

At 0:24, the lizard says "Where are you going this early? Are you going to work?"

Anonymous

Hee

Anonymous

Claymation lizards!

Damkerng T.

At 0:37, the lady lizard says, "I told you several times, don't greet them!".

It was so funny the first time I saw it. :)

That tsu-tsu-tsu sound is what we think of house lizard's scampering.

Anonymous

10:35

Oh!

Anonymous

Snails can make sounds too.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

You wouldn't think it, since they don't have vocal apparati

Anonymous

But it's true.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think I should restart my Firefox. It's really slow when I type anything. See you in about a minute.

Anonymous

10:36

Good luck!

Anonymous

First of all, snails make a "thud" sound when they accidentally fall off a wall or a ceiling. Which is something snails do :-)

Anonymous

One time I was watching a snail crawl along the underside of a leaf outside, a rather large leaf overhanging the sidewalk maybe an inch above at most

Damkerng T.

Hah! The thud sound. :)

Anonymous

The snail kept crawling when it got to the edge of the leaf

Anonymous

A couple minutes later, it managed to crawl off of the leaf and fell to the sidewalk, one inch below, with a thud!

Damkerng T.

10:38

Their crawling ability is amazing!

Oh! :D

Anonymous

Then the snail got confused, being upside down, and after a minute found the ground and righted itself :-)

Anonymous

Snails can do that, too.

Anonymous

You don't have to flip over an upside-down snail.

Anonymous

But sometimes I do it anyway.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I can't imagine how a snail would roll over itself. :D

Anonymous

10:39

Well, they don't have any bones in their foot

Anonymous

So they sort of twist and find their shell and crawl on it until they find the ground :-)

Anonymous

Then they keep going, and eventually their shell flips over.

Damkerng T.

That sounds like a cute thing to do. :)

Anonymous

Dee likes being upside down, though. She does it on purpose.

Anonymous

If you give her a leaf, she crawls onto the bottom.

Anonymous

10:41

She's a very smart snail, hiding from predators like that :-)

Damkerng T.

Hee.

Anonymous

A recent question on the site says

Anonymous

"It also happens when you try to eat banana peel"

Anonymous

I've never done that.

Anonymous

Is that a thing?

Damkerng T.

10:43

LOL

I guess the OP meant eating it unintentionally. :)

I think I haven't really eaten it. :D

Anonymous

I really haven't eaten it either

Damkerng T.

Oh, do you still have that 60 beliefs?

Nico

I've been waiting on this answer:

0

A: Data Through Year

The answer depends on whether you are using American or British English. In the US, it means data collected up to and including 2005. In other words earlier years are included. In Britain, it means data collected throughout 2005. In other words, only during 2005. The use of through as a syno...

Anonymous

Um

Damkerng T.

See #21. :)

Nico

10:44

to get up/down voted

but nothing yet!

I've looked up a few dictionaries. and I haven't found any reference yet with the British usage mentioned there.

Anonymous

> 21.) Bees nest in the house. I believe that there Do not go away or destroyed because it may cause disaster. Because bees are insects mascot diligent work.

Anonymous

Thanks, Google Translate… :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That sounds pretty good as a translation. It's why I let the bees stay in my house. :)

Anonymous

@Nico Ummmmmm

Anonymous

My Thai friend has house bees too.

Nico

10:47

PAE only mentions that British English requires making explicit the "to ... inclusive".

Damkerng T.

Ahh... That through question. I saw that and I couldn't decide which answer is correct. I guess that Chenmunka is right.

I think the through used in the OP question is counter-intuitive for me. Maybe it's uncommon. (I think it's written in AmE.)

Nico

To me the answer makes sense, but it'd be great if I could confirm the usage in: "data collected through(out) 2005"

Damkerng T.

My previous understanding is the data through 2005 would include everything up to the end of 2005. (Say, from year 1990, for example.)

But this one seems like they meant the data through 2005 to mean the data collected the whole year of year 2005 indeed.

Anonymous

> (OED) 5.d. U.S. Up to (a date, a number, a specified item, etc.) inclusively, up to the end of, up to and including, to, until; often correlative to from.

Damkerng T.

The original seems to be ambiguous about the from part.

Anonymous

10:53

It's clearly the US usage

Anonymous

I can tell that without checking the source

Nico

To make it clear, what I'd like to confirm is whether in BrE "the data collected through 2005" is interpreted as "the data collected throughout 2005", that is, From Jan, 1st 2005 to Dec, 31st 2005.

Damkerng T.

What should be the implied from time?

Anonymous

Yes, thank you, that is what I understood you to be asking

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It can't be determined without looking at context

Damkerng T.

10:54

> To address the second question, we compute the implied dynamic adjustment of import prices to a change in the value of the dollar using parameters estimated from two samples: 1974-2000 and 1974-2005.

> The long-run response of import prices is similar regardless of which sample is used---roughly one-half of the change in the exchange rate is passed through to import prices. However, the short-run response is quite sensitive to the sample period. Specifically, the short-run response based on data through 2005 is smaller than the short-run response based on data through 2000.

Anonymous

Hooray! 1974 it is.

Damkerng T.

I think I missed the ranges (1974-2000 and 1974-2005) the first time I checked it out.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, I don't think it really makes sense to discuss what it means in BrE.

Damkerng T.

So it's a normal usage. It's the context (the conclusion) that baffled me. [the short-run response based on data through 2005 is smaller than the short-run response based on data through 2000]

Anonymous

You can discuss what through might mean in BrE, but you can't discuss this particular example as though it's BrE without inventing a new context for it

Damkerng T.

11:03

Oh, talking about superstition. I remember that on the first day I went to work, my grandma told me to step my right foot onto the office three times and shout "win, win, win" at the same time. :)

Nico

I think it may not be a BrE thing. I think with enough context it's also found in AmE:

> In order to use that money appropriately we are asking here that some of those savings which have accrued through the year be sent for tuition programs to offer at least tuition assistance to some of those children.

(Source: District of Columbia Appropriations for 1974: Hearings ...)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... It was from 1974. Maybe the usage shifted. Also, I guess that if there was no from part, it would imply the beginning of the year. Just a guess, though.

Anonymous

@Nico Well, the other meaning of through is impossible there

Anonymous

The BrE thing isn't a special BrE-only sense, it's just the lack of an AmE one, as you seem to be saying correctly

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The U.S. usage goes back to pre-1800

Nico

11:11

Here's a more modern example (in IntE):

> Since the fair value gain has accrued through the year, A uses the average rate of 2.5 (= [3.0 + 2.0] + 2) as a practical approximation.

(Source: International GAAP 2013: Generally Accepted Accounting ...)

@snailboat If you were to re-write one of these examples in AmE, how would you do it?

Anonymous

What do you mean?

Nico

Does "Since the fair value gain has accrued through the year" sound OK in AmE?

Anonymous

Yes

Nico

OK, I had misunderstood.

Damkerng T.

I'd say they sound the same to me: from X through Y or through Z. Through Z just implies the begin of Z.

Through Z also sounds quite similar to throughout Z in most contexts(?), I think.

Nico

11:18

Changing the subject, did anyone else think that F.E. was paraphrasing Lewis Carroll here? :)

Damkerng T.

I like the paraphrase you posted yesterday.

Eh? That one was about F.E. discussing backshifting, I think.

Nico

I just mean the style in:

3

Q: Lewis Carroll is confusing me

I was skimming through "Information Security" by Mark Stamp. Each chapter has some weird (but, nice) quote. Today, I came across something inconceivable. It said, "... if you'd like it, put more simply - Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what ...

meaning-in-context

Damkerng T.

I think there's no backshifting in that sentence.

Nico

"... that what you were or might have been ... than what you had been would have appeared to them ..."

Damkerng T.

Loads of irrealis to me. :)

Nico

11:24

I found very interesting StoneyB's suggestion that to parse the sentence, we need a break betweeen others and that:

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others -- that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Damkerng T.

I guess you could consider the latter part as a backshift too, but I think we don't have to.

I haven't read what StoneyB linked to yet.

Nico

I only checked the first link, and I didn't find it espcially enlightening.

Damkerng T.

That's how I parsed it.

Nico

I would still add an or:

> that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been or would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Damkerng T.

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than [ what it might appear to others that [ what you were or might have been ] was not otherwise than [ [ what you had been ] would have appeared to them to be otherwise ].

Nico

11:27

...

Damkerng T.

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than [ what it might appear to others that some proposed idea ].

Nico

if you parse the sentence like that, how could you have a dash between others and that?

...

can you say "it appears to me that some good idea"?

Damkerng T.

It's like when I say, "I want to say -- that what they do is the right thing"

Nico

ohh you mean:

> it appears to me that it is a good idea

Damkerng T.

nods

Nico

11:31

I don't think a dash would be appripriate in that case, but let me think it further.

Damkerng T.

Probably a stylistic matter. I also think snailboat knows the usage of that much more precisely than me.

Nico

What's the subject of "was not otherwise than"?

Damkerng T.

According to my parse, it's the whole block of [ what you were or might have been ].

Nico

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than it was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

I would exprect a noun phrase after than, not a clause.

Damkerng T.

You dropped this part, "what it might appear to others that".

Nico

11:37

I replaced it by it. That is, I replaced the subject of "was not otherwise than" by it.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think you replaced "what it might appear to others that [ what you were or might have been ]" by it.

Hmm... It might work, though it means something a little different.

Nico

Yes, I did.

Cannot any abstract singular subject be replaced by it?

Damkerng T.

But placing it right after than sounds a little odd to me. (Having what after than didn't make me feel that. Strange)

> I don't know if what you think is known by them.
I don't know if it is known by them.

Nico

It sounds odd to me, because after than I would expect a noun phrase, not a clause.

Damkerng T.

A-ha! I think I'm more used to thinking of the whole sentence as a noun phrase.

Nico

11:42

@DamkerngT. Both sentences sound good to me.

Damkerng T.

(I wouldn't normally write it myself, though.)

@Nico Yes. To me, too.

Nico

I gotta work on something else. I'll come back to this some other time.

Thanks for helping me think about it.

Damkerng T.

Have a nice time there. :)

You're welcome. I'm not sure I helped much, though. :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The sentence as a whole has the form of an imperative clause, not a noun phrase

Anonymous

Unless we're talking about two different sentences

Anonymous

11:48

What are we talking about? :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat We were talking about that recondite sentence. :D ひひひ -- a robot is giggling to itself... it was looking for an opportunity to use the word 'recondite' for so long. :)

A bit more seriously, Nico mentioned that "after than I would expect a noun phrase, not a clause"

Anonymous

'Round these parts, recondite is a bit of a signal :-)

Anonymous

"This is a bit more expensive than I'd like it to be"

Anonymous

Than lives a double life: both a preposition and a conjunction!

Damkerng T.

I still can't explain to myself why I don't like this it replacement.

24 mins ago, by Nico

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than it was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

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