English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:06

5

– What did she say? – Not to put too fine a point on it, she said you sexually harassed her. This expression means 'used to apologise for a possibly impolite statement one is making.' But why does this sequence of words mean that? What does mean to put a point on something? And then how is a...

meaning-in-context

Anonymous

It never occurred to me that this might be non-compositional

Anonymous

But I suppose it is!

user116848

Vote to close's answer seems to make sense, that "without going into the specific details of the event".

user116848

I think the words of the expression speaks for itself!

Anonymous

05:39

0

A: adj plus if-clause

She was undecided if she should accept his offer. is just a statement of fact, and is OK as is. She was undecided whether she should accept his offer or not. Using whether usually indicates a choice of two alternatives. Many times you will also find the phrase *whether or not". See the...

Anonymous

This "undecided if" sounds pretty strange to me.

Anonymous

I see corpus examples (though not nearly as many as I can find for "undecided [as to] whether")

Anonymous

COCA has two examples of "undecided if"

Anonymous

> On the other side, the Vols are undecided if Erik Ainge will return after leaving last week with a high ankle sprain or they could go with redshirt freshman Jonathan Crompton.

Anonymous

> Although it's undecided if Bay will make all the Armageddon-related spots, at the very least he plans to, as he puts it, "godfather" the project.

Anonymous

05:42

Somehow these examples sound better than the OP's, but I have no idea why

Nico

07:00

@snailboat Just an experiment... would "it was undecided if she should accept his offer" sound better?

One thing I don't like about the original sentence is the sequence of "she... she... his...".

Anonymous

07:13

@Nico Quite possibly.

Anonymous

07:29

I made a gallery for Bean, but I haven't made a gallery for Snaily yet

Anonymous

quarplet.com/bean

Nico

It's the first time I've seen a baby snail!

user116848

Hi! guys

user116848

Ms Boat how is your pet snail 'Bean'?

Nico

07:46

Land snail

A land snail is a common name for any of the numerous species of snail that live on land, as opposed to those that live in salt water and fresh water. Land snails are terrestrial gastropod mollusks that have shells, (those without shells are known as slugs.) In reality however, it is not always easy to say which species are terrestrial, because some are more or less amphibious between land and freshwater, and others are relatively amphibious between land and saltwater. The majority of land snails are pulmonates, i.e. they have a lung and breathe air. A minority however belong to much m...

OMG! Where did that photo come from? Sorry not very appripriate.

Anyway, fact of the day: "the majority of land snails are hermaphrodite and most lay clutches of eggs in the soil"

user116848

@Nico You like snails too?

Nico

Do you mean if I eat them? }:>

user116848

So you eat them? :)

user116848

Is it delicious? I have not eaten any.

Nico

They are popular side-dish where I come from. But I like better frog legs. :p

user116848

07:54

So frogs now? haha

Nico

Yeap, that's another popular side-dish.

user116848

Aren't majority of the frogs poisonous?

Nico

Frog legs

Frog legs are one of the better-known delicacies of French and Cantonese cuisine. They are also eaten in other regions, such as Kerala, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, the region of Alentejo in Portugal, Spain, Slovenia, northwest Greece, and Northern Italy, as well as the Southern regions of the United States. Currently the world's largest exporter of frogs is Indonesia, also a large consumer. In regions such as Brazil, Mexico and the Caribbean many frogs are still caught wild. A type of frog called the edible frog is most often used for this dish. Frog legs are rich in protein, omega-...

Anonymous

@Nico Don't worry, that's what oneboxing does―it magically picks the least appropriate photo from every Wikipedia page you link to :-)

Anonymous

Bean passed away so I made that little gallery to remember her by.

Anonymous

07:57

Not all snails live a long time. Bean was only eight months old.

user116848

@snailboat Aww. I am so sorry.

Anonymous

Thank you

Anonymous

@Arrowfar Many frogs are poisonous. Many aren't.

Anonymous

Many of the poisonous frogs have what is called "warning colors"

Anonymous

Or, if you like fancy words, aposematism

Anonymous

07:58

Aposematism

Aposematism (from Greek ἀπό apo away, σ̑ημα sema sign, coined by Edward Bagnall Poulton), perhaps most commonly known in the context of warning coloration, describes a family of antipredator adaptations where a warning signal is associated with the unprofitability of a prey item to potential predators. It is one form of "advertising" signal (with many others existing, such as the bright colours of flowers which lure pollinators). The warning signal may take the form of conspicuous colours, sounds, odours or other perceivable characteristics. Aposematic signals are beneficial for both the...

Anonymous

Anonymous

They're beautiful to look at, but dangerous.

Anonymous

Much like how the most beautiful butterflies are poisonous.

Anonymous

Poison dart frogs are pretty.

user116848

Yeah I have heard of the 'colorful poisonous' frogs.

Anonymous

07:59

I had a pet frog when I was young.

user116848

Yeah? What was his name?

Anonymous

Well, my frog was a tadpole at first…

Anonymous

…so Tad :-)

user116848

:-)

Anonymous

I had a newt named Bunny.

Anonymous

08:01

I love small animals.

Anonymous

My sister had a fire-belly newt. They look black when they're sitting down, but they have red underneath:

Anonymous

user116848

But you don't like creppy crawlies like lizards etc.? :)

Anonymous

I love lizards! :-)

Anonymous

I've never had a pet lizard. Or touched a lizard.

Anonymous

08:02

But they're cute.

Anonymous

I always watch them at the pet store.

user116848

OMG! How can you love a lizard haha :)

Anonymous

We have lizards who live outside. They're silly. And very fast.

Anonymous

Occasionally they startle me!

Anonymous

The most common lizard around here is the Western Fence Lizard.

user116848

08:03

Yeah, I hear in Australia they have very big lizards.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar I love lots of animals, even though I don't necessarily want to touch some of them :-)

Anonymous

I avoid touching snails, too, but I love watching them.

Nico

Perez's frog

The Perez's frog, also known as Iberian waterfrog, Iberian green frog, or Coruna frog (Pelophylax perezi) is a species of frog in the Ranidae family. It is native to southern France, Portugal, Spain, and has been introduced to the Azores, Madeira, the Canary and Balearic Islands, and the United Kingdom (two sites); in the Iberian Peninsula it is widespread and common, as evidenced by its Spanish name rana común ("common frog"). Its natural habitats are temperate forests, temperate shrubland, Mediterranean-type shrubby vegetation, rivers, intermittent rivers, swamps, freshwater lakes, in...

user116848

:)

Anonymous

08:04

Some people who own slimy pets like to touch them or carry them around in their hands.

Nico

These are the most common frogs whare I come from

Anonymous

My mom taught me not to do that when I was young

Anonymous

Ooh, that's an interesting looking frog

Anonymous

I don't remember anymore much about what sort of frog I had

user116848

So what about snakes? You don't like them, right?

Anonymous

08:06

I think it was tiny and all green.

Nico

But one can also find thes beautiful frogs too:

European tree frog

The European tree frog (Hyla arborea formerly Rana arborea) is a small tree frog found in Europe, Asia and part of Africa. Based on molecular genetic and other data, a number of taxa formerly treated as subspecies of H. arborea are now generally recognized as full species Characteristics European tree frogs are small; males range from in length, and females range from in length. They are slender, with long legs. with large (folded) vocal sacs. The head of H. arborea is rounded, the lip drops strongly, the pupil has the shape of a horizontal ellipse, and the tympanum is clearly recogn...

Anonymous

I think I would be afraid of snakes.

Anonymous

I haven't really had much of an opportunity to be around snakes, though.

user116848

That's what I thought too haha

Anonymous

Before I was born, my parents kept a pet snake in my room.

Anonymous

08:07

@Nico Oh, those are cute frogs! :-)

Anonymous

My family always had lots of pets, all sorts of different animals.

Anonymous

We had snails. They were water snails, though.

Anonymous

And hermit crabs. And hamsters, and gerbils.

Anonymous

Fish, once.

Anonymous

08:08

When I was in the third grade, a teacher asked us all how many pets we had

Anonymous

I stood up and proudly proclaimed, "Twenty four!"

Anonymous

I got in trouble for lying, but it was true :-)

Anonymous

I grew up thinking that a "dining room" was a place where animals lived.

user116848

Well, that is cute. :D

Anonymous

A couple I'm friends with has 13 cats now.

Anonymous

08:10

Thirteen is a lot of cats!

Anonymous

They're adorable, though.

user116848

So is there any 'pets' SE site?

Nico

Service with a smile!

user116848

You go there? Or is that boring?

Nico

There is even a tag for snails!

pets.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/snails

No... just googled it!

Anonymous

08:16

There aren't really any land snail owners there

Anonymous

15

Q: How can I safely pick up a garden snail?

I have a pet garden snail who is fully grown, but still not very big. Sometimes I need to move my snail around for one reason or another, like for cage cleaning. But I'm afraid to pick snails up, because I'm afraid I might hurt them if I just try to pull them off whatever they're stuck to! Usu...

snails

Nico

petsnails.co.uk/care/handling.html

Anonymous

See, that's a better source for snail owners :-)

Anonymous

Actually, you can pick up snails by their shells if they let you.

Anonymous

But sometimes they don't want to let go, so you can't.

Anonymous

08:22

1

Q: What does "pertinent biological information" mean in an essay

I was asked to write an essay about my career objectives and goals, major interests, exprience or any pertinent biological information. I tried to figure the meaning of the last part but with no success My dictionary shows that pertinent means relevant to, so they're asking me to write about bio...

vocabulary

Anonymous

Now that's circumlocution!

Anonymous

Hey, a moth just showed up! Hello, Mothra!

Nico

Indeed! But I'm afraid relevant is something that changes from country to country.

I would say in Spain it's very unsual to list your hobbies in a CV. In the UK, though, all the CVs I've read have a section for that.

Anonymous

@Nico I suppose it depends on the hobby, too. If you work on open source software in your spare time and you're applying for a job where that expertise is relevant, then by all means

Anonymous

08:37

I will never say "proximity agreement" because "proximal agreement" is so much more mellifluous. Like mellifluous.

Anonymous

I mostly just wanted to say mellifluous.

Anonymous

Forgive me. :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes I get the strongest urge to use a particular word, regardless of whether it's the most appropriate word for a particular purpose.

Anonymous

But regardless, I reject "proximity agreement"

Nico

I think mellifluous is a perfectly cromulent word in this case.

Anonymous

08:41

Mmm, mellifluous.

Nico

cromulent :)

Anonymous

Cromulent! Yay!

Anonymous

I just re-watched this clip:

Anonymous

►

fahdijbeli

08:57

morning

Anonymous

Good morning!

Anonymous

Pop culture references can date your work pretty quickly.

Anonymous

I should learn not to make so many of those. :-)

fahdijbeli

09:15

:)

Damkerng T.

10:27

2

Q: have to : "used to say that something is very likely"

[i] He has to be foolish. [ii] They all have to be Englishmen. (From a Korean English-grammar book) The book says both examples above are wrong, for ‘have to’ cannot be used for guessing something. But the reason itself seems to be not true, because there are its usages as below. Can the...

vocabulary

Different dialects seem to use modal verbs and related words differently.

(By the way, hello everyone. -- Just in case you're really here. :-)

@snailboat I miss her, too.

@snailboat Jack Bauer!

Anonymous

10:50

@DamkerngT. Oh, that was the furthest thing from my mind, but sure, why not? :-)

Damkerng T.

Since the series, everything about 24 reminds me of Jack Bauer. :)

Anonymous

24 is popular in Japan.

Anonymous

Actually, I've watched it in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

It's pretty good as far as dubs go, although there are cultural differences that can be a little jarring to a non-native speaker

Anonymous

10:52

Jack Bauer's image is uber-masculine, and a linguistic feature associated with that image (in Japanese) is pitching his voice artificially low

Damkerng T.

Ahh

The pitches they use in Japanese are highly gender-oriented.

Anonymous

Yeah, it's true in fiction and real life, too.

Anonymous

If you're a woman, you learn to pitch your voice up a few notes for your standard register, relative to English

Damkerng T.

I wonder how you would sound like in Japanese! :)

(I guess you would have to raise your pitch a bit. :)

Anonymous

I mean, you don't have to pitch your voice higher. But it's normal.

Nico

10:58

This is just my personal impression: I'd say women speaking English, Polish, Japanese... as their L1 speak, on average, with a higher pitch than women in Spanish. I don't mean evry women, but I can feel the difference.

Anonymous

@Nico These differences are real, although I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of Spanish

Anonymous

I believe the differences are generally social rather than biological

Damkerng T.

Come to think of it, I think my English voice sounds a little lower than my Thai voice.

Maybe because I usually associate my English with things that aren't too casual.

Anonymous

Maybe because you practice by reading the news. :-)

Damkerng T.

(I usually drop my pitch a bit too in Thai, when I want to talk a little more seriously. :)

@snailboat That's probably the reason too! :)

Anonymous

11:01

I just wrote an answer with a bunch of extraneous information

Damkerng T.

To my JSE question? I haven't been notified yet.

Anonymous

Nope!

Anonymous

To an ELL question.

Anonymous

I need to do more research before I can write the answer I'd like to for that question.

Nico

@snailboat I think so. I think it becomes more apparent when I hear Polish girls speaking in Spanish. There is nothing wrong with the way they speak Spanish, but it feels different (it feels a little bit... childish, perhaps?)

Anonymous

11:04

@Nico Yeah, you notice, don't you? I think learning to pitch your voice is just another aspect of pronunciation you learn in your L2, like how to pronounce the vowels and consonants, what the melodies of the language are like, and so on

Anonymous

What about rhythm?

Anonymous

My personal impression is that native speakers of Polish tend to speak more slowly.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure about Polish, but I think Spanish sounds syllabic-like to me.

Nico

Umm... it'd be hard for me to judge... Spanish speakers from Spain are known for being fast speakers (though, I may not be the best example).

Anonymous

@Nico It's true. Although the language isn't really that much faster.

Nico

11:08

@DamkerngT. Does Japanese sound syllabic to you?

Anonymous

Of course, we often perceive foreign languages as being faster than they actually are―an illusion

Damkerng T.

Most of the time!

Anonymous

I don't know what "sound syllabic" means

Anonymous

Do you mean syllable-timed?

Nico

Japanese has only 5 vocalic sounds (like Spanish), doesn't it?

Anonymous

11:10

That's right.

Anonymous

They're not the same as Spanish, but if you were learning Japanese they'd be pretty good approximations :-)

Damkerng T.

I mean there is virtually no syllables merging (or what perceived as syllables).

Nico

5 vowels are very limited, so the stress goes into the syllables

I think vowels are more important in English

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think they call this aspect of English liaison.

Anonymous

Liaison is like in French when the ending consonant transfers to the following word

Anonymous

11:11

English has a bazillion vowels.

Anonymous

Vowels are like our favorite thing.

Damkerng T.

nods Yes. And to me, the lesser liaison I can hear, the more likely I will hear the speech in syllables.

Anonymous

Except that we don't care that we have so many vowels and just replace most of them with schwas because we're lazy. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, even in relatively careful speech, you'll notice some sounds running together and being reduced.

Anonymous

In all but the most careful or textbook-like speech.

Damkerng T.

11:13

@snailboat Aww... Vowels are the most trickiest things when listening to the variety of English dialects.

Anonymous

So for example 消し去る /kesisaru/ "get rid of; erase" can be pronounced something like like /kessaru/

Damkerng T.

Oh! It looks like I feel that vowels are really tricky. Neither just 'most' nor just 'trickiest' isn't enough!

Anonymous

Did your italics do something you weren't expecting?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I can feel that now, once I listen to them closely.

It did!

Anonymous

Ah, you wrote most trickiest!

Anonymous

11:16

I didn't notice.

Anonymous

Of course, that's non-standard. But that sort of redundant superlative does occur in natural speech among native speakers

Anonymous

They used to be standard. You can find examples in Shakespeare.

Nico

The only case I can think of now where the borders of a syllable are blurred in Spanish is with intervocalic d*s. For example: *pasado (past) in a relaxed speech would be pronounced as pasao.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

Connected speech rules occur in all natural languages.

Anonymous

11:17

But our minds are trained not to notice.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think English sounds different because the connection (liaison) occurs almost all the time.

Anonymous

> 　Brutus shall lead, and we will grace his heels
> 　With the most boldest and best hearts of Rome.
> (Shakespeare's _Julius Caesar_, Act 3, Scene 1, Lines 130-131)

Anonymous

Here the double superlative is clearly emphatic, much like yours.

Anonymous

Although we'd edit away a double superlative today, it's clear that in Shakespeare's time he was not making a mistake

Damkerng T.

Yay! I talked Shakespeare-ish!

Anonymous

11:20

And of course, double superlatives are still a regular feature of non-standard English today

Damkerng T.

I guess that happens more often in spontaneous/casual speech.

Anonymous

Certainly. It's looked down upon these days, so it's almost always edited out of written English.

Anonymous

A friend of mine―the same friend with the thirteen cats I mentioned earlier―has an inside joke going about the phrase "more better"

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

What is the joke like?

Anonymous

Double comparatives too are looked down on, but again are used in non-standard English

Anonymous

11:24

You know, I never really got the joke. Just something about saying "more better" made my friend laugh really hard

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Anonymous

So it's some sort of inside joke.

Anonymous

Hey, that's strange. @Cerberus is missing from ELL chat!

Anonymous

And from the lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks chat.

Damkerng T.

Sometimes I noticed Cerberus was missing, but never longer than one day, I think.

Anonymous

11:26

@DamkerngT. Double comparatives too were standard in Shakespeare's time

Damkerng T.

Look! We got a new bounty question!

3

Q: all you need to do is figure out - if "figure out" is changed to "to figure out", how does the meaning change?

Like most programming problems, if you understand the logic behind what you’re trying to accomplish, all you need to do is figure out a way of representing that logic with programming code. So let’s think for a moment about the problem we have to solve. How would the meaning of the sentence ...

grammar

> Like most programming problems, if you understand the logic behind what you’re trying to accomplish, all you need to do is figure out a way of representing that logic with programming code. So let’s think for a moment about the problem we have to solve.

I think it might work only in a casual context.

The text doesn't sound like a piece of writing to me.

Anonymous

It does sound like spoken English, but there's nothing terribly strange about seeing that style in writing

Damkerng T.

I guess it might be in a classroom, at a seminar, in a chat room, or even an answer to some question on some stack.

In a code review is also possible.

Anonymous

Some books are written as though they're talking to the reader.

Anonymous

Some technical books. Programming Perl comes to mind

Damkerng T.

11:35

I like that kind of books too.

Oh, isn't the author of Programming Perl a regular in the ELU chat room? :D

Anonymous

Yeah, tchrist is a regular on ELU

Anonymous

I think he joined for the rewritten / expanded second edition and the even more expanded third edition

Anonymous

I don't have the first or fourth editions

Anonymous

I learned perl from the second edition and later bought the third

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I haven't read the first two editions.

My Perl isn't that good, just doable.

Anonymous

11:39

I learned a lot by reading through the whole thing. Remember that I was only 14

Damkerng T.

I read his book on Safari Online, though.

Anonymous

When I was young, I learned to code very rapidly, but in a very undisciplined way

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

A lot of the reading I did as a teenager and in my early 20s was really helpful in refining what I'd picked up naturally

Anonymous

The second edition of Programming Perl lists three virtues:

Anonymous

11:40

c2.com/cgi/wiki?LazinessImpatienceHubris

Damkerng T.

I particularly earned the first one. :)

Anonymous

But they caution against False Laziness, False Impatience, and False Hubris.

Damkerng T.

That's true and wise.

I seem to possess another virtue they don't list.

Greed.

Anonymous

These were formative concepts for me :-)

Anonymous

Ha.

Anonymous

11:43

Correspondingly, False Greed: preventing yourself from making as much money as you could by trying to be greedy :-)

Damkerng T.

I want to maximize what I put so minimal effort into. :)

Anonymous

12:15

I really like this question title:

Anonymous

3

Q: Lewis Carroll is confusing me

I was skimming through "Information Security" by Mark Stamp. Each chapter has some weird (but, nice) quote. Today, I came across something inconceivable. It said, "... if you'd like it, put more simply - Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others what you w...

meaning-in-context

Anonymous

It's not very specific, but it is funny :-)

Damkerng T.

13:32

@snailboat Oh, I could parse the sentence but I couldn't grasp what it means.

I think I would need pens and paper to analyze it!

Anonymous

13:43

@DamkerngT. Me too. :-)

Nico

13:54

The bit that trips me is the "that what".

> To appear to others that what you were

For some reason, it's jarring my parser.

Anonymous

I think it's typed wrong

Anonymous

Just a moment

Anonymous

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Anonymous

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Anonymous

The former is from the book, the latter is from the question

Nico

14:01

umm... the latter sounds better to me...

Anonymous

Hmm.

Anonymous

But leaving out that hurts my brain.

Anonymous

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Nico

The first time I read it, I interpreted as:

> To appear to others that that you were

Anonymous

> Never imagine yourself ~~not~~ to be ~~otherwise than~~ what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Anonymous

14:03

Hmm. Nope. Doesn't fit into my brain. :-)

Anonymous

itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001380.html

Anonymous

That was one of the links in StoneyB's answer.

Nico

I'm gonna cheat and look for a translation into Spanish.

Anonymous

Oh, that's a fun idea.

Nico

Hmm... in Spanish it's been translated as a conditional sentence

I'll try to translte back into English

> Never imagine to be different from what it might appear or it had appeared to others if it appeared to them that you were what you aren't.

After some rearrangement:

> if it appeared to others that you were what you aren't, then never imagine to be different from what it might appear or it had appeared to them.

StoneyB

14:31

@snailboat It might appear to others that is a garden path. Try putting a dash after others.

Or a colon. Or even a full stop.

Nico

> Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others
*--* that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had
been **or** would have appeared to them to be otherwise

Cerberus

@snailboat I have made a script that turns off my computer when it is bed time.

So that explains it!

And now I have to do already...

Anonymous

15:03

@Nico I found my Japanese copy!

Anonymous

It says: Onore o tanin no me ni utsuru de arō mono to betsu no yō ni omou na, to iu no wa, katsute no onore, moshiku wa sō de atta de arō onore to wa, sunawachi katsute tanin no me ni wa betsu no yō ni utsutte ita ka mo shirenai mono ni hoka naranu no da kara

Anonymous

So now all I have to do is figure out what that means, and I'm set!

Nico

:)

Anonymous

I actually have two different translations.

Anonymous

One of them is an audiobook. I thought it would be the same so I could listen and read along, but it turned out to be a different translation! (I should have checked!)

Anonymous

15:08

Today I had occasion to read about logophoric pronouns

Damkerng T.

15:52

I read it as logographic at first glance!

Anonymous

Hmm. A logographic pronoun! That's something of a difficult concept :-)

Transcript for

English Language Learners