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00:00
nods -- I will make up for it today. :)
Anonymous
The /n/ row is kind of a fun one.
It has two knots inside. :)
We also has a similar knotish thing in Thai script.
Anonymous
Later on you'll learn kana that look similar but without the knots. But I recommend not looking ahead today
Anonymous
Learning them on separate days will help you keep them mentally distinct
More than half of Thai letters are supposed to be written from their knots (we call them heads).
nods
Anonymous
00:03
I write Latin letters backwards.
Anonymous
I taught myself how to read and write when I was young, and then they tried to teach me again in school, and they made me trace letters and write them a particular way, but I couldn't do it.
You mean writing them in the opposite direction.
Anonymous
Like my letter G spiral out from the center
Anonymous
Yes
00:04
Ah, I wrote a few of Thai letters backward too!
Anonymous
What I said is ambiguous
I decided to change it when I was 30. :)
Anonymous
"I write Latin letters [in a] backwards [fashion]" not "I write Latin letters [such that they are] backwards"
Anonymous
I had to re-learn to write several times in my life.
เ แ โ
Anonymous
00:05
Arguably, I shouldn't use backwards that way. But that argument is for other people.
Can you see these three letters?
Anonymous
I talk like that. :-)
Anonymous
Sure I can.
We are supposed to write them from their heads, which is at the bottom.
I usually wrote the first two from their tops. :)
Anonymous
Ahh!
Anonymous
00:06
You're backward backwards.
Anonymous
See, we're s'posta write Latin letters from the top and left generally.
Anonymous
For me, X is two diagonal lines: the first one starts from the lower right, and the second starts from the lower left.
Anonymous
O starts at the bottom and continues clockwise. G starts at the center and curls outwards.
Anonymous
00:07
And so on.
Anonymous
I had a tendency to write from the bottom right and the center.
Anonymous
Anyway, my completely useless elementary school, 'fore I got sent to some special kids' school, gave me all sorts of bad grades on account of those ;-)
Oh, talking about handwriting, I think I've seen some American folks write the small d without the last down stroke part.
Looks a bit unique, and a little cute. :D
Anonymous
Hmm. What's the usual way of writing d?
Eh? lol
Anonymous
00:10
All of my vertical lines go up rather than down
Anonymous
Vertical line up, and then a c starting from the bottom right
Anonymous
I'm not sure what the way you're supposed to write it is.
I think we normally start from the upper part of the big curve, complete the curve, continue to draw a line up to the top, and then down to the bottom.
Anonymous
That sounds like effort to me.
Anonymous
00:12
When I was in high school, my parents bought me a Palm Pilot. Actually, I think it was a Palm III, but I always called a pilot, using that as a generic name for those things.
Oh, Palm is always a great gadget to me. (I've never have one, though.)
Anonymous
Its handwriting recognition forced you to write letters in a certain way, though, a Palm-specific script derived from typical handwriting but not quite the same
Ahh... How should we write a d on a Palm?
Anonymous
Unfortunately, I was never able to use it properly because of the effort of retraining myself to write from the top and left.
Anonymous
I don't remember!
00:13
lol
Anonymous
However, trying to retrain myself had a lasting effect on my handwriting.
Anonymous
Although in the end I was not successful. I am an inverter, through and through.
Anonymous
Writing letters uninverted is like writing left-handed. I can do it, but it's not very easy.
nods -- Especially when we want to write real fast.
Anonymous
But now, post-Palm, I write my esses from the top.
Anonymous
00:14
Uh, sometimes.
Anonymous
Point is, I can write them from the top :-)
Anonymous
A few other letters changed, too. I write my y in one stroke now. It's cuter now.
Ah, I see. :D
Anonymous
Like a u if you wrote it from the upper left, and then curved down with a tail
Anonymous
00:16
What's funny is that I have no problem writing Japanese characters from the top.
Anonymous
Uh, mostly. I write a few kana backwards. :-)
My v usually has a little curve, instead of a sharp angle, so when I write really fast, some v and u will look really similar.
Hah!
Anonymous
In rapid handwriting, a lot of different letters become zigzag squiggles for a lot of English speakers
Oh, the order of the strokes of せ is a little counter-intuitive for me, by the way.
Anonymous
Try writing immune rapidly
00:18
Ah, I can imagine how confusing it would look. :)
Anonymous
It can turn into about 90% identical zigzags, with a dot above the beginning and a slight curve at the end
Anonymous
After which you look at it and ask yourself: "Hey, what word did I write there again?"
Anonymous
It's like writing code, except you lose the ability to read it even more quickly.
Oh, I just tried that and I got one extra zigzag! :)
Anonymous
00:21
@DamkerngT. せ and セ are simplified versions of 世 "world"
Ahh...
Anonymous
They inherit the goofiness.
Anonymous
I think the stroke order for that kanji surprises people sometimes :-)
nods -- I bet!
:)
Anonymous
00:25
There's a rule for kanji stroke order: a horizontal stroke that goes all the way through the kanji comes last.
Anonymous
But 世 is an exception.
See what happened to my immune? :)
Anonymous
女 is a typical example of a kanji which is not an exception. You write く then ノ then the horizontal 一
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. I knew it! :-)
Anonymous
It's funny because the moment you posted it I could read it, but now that I'm looking at it as a scribble I can't anymore.
Anonymous
00:26
wnunure!
Anonymous
immune is a fun word for a zigzag scribble test.
Anonymous
When you write more rapidly, you might have a tendency to tense up and make smaller strokes, so the zigs and zags become less distinct and eventually, if you're sloppy enough, you can make it into a wavy horizontal line
@snailboat Isn't that in a different order from Chinese, I think?
@snailboat I think that's particularly true.
Oh, this also reminds me something.
I think natural speech can be thought of handwriting.
It's hard for learners because usually learners learned something equivalent to machine print letters.
But natural speech is like handwriting.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. I don't think so
00:29
Obviously, trying to understand zigzags is more difficult.
@snailboat Eh? (But of course, I might misremember it. I haven't really learned Chinese yet.)
Anonymous
Generally, you can find stroke order for just about anything in Japanese by searching on Google for the character in question and 筆順. In Simplified Chinese, that's 笔顺, so searching for that'll give you a Chinese stroke order
Ahh... That's a good tip!
I starred it.
Anonymous
There are times when Japanese and Chinese stroke order differ, even when characters are written in substantially the same way.
Now newcomers could be confused when they see the starred messages, "Which room am I in? Did I click a wrong button?"
Anonymous
00:33
For example, compare Chinese 臣 to Japanese 臣
Anonymous
But you don't really need to know these differences. The stroke order police won't arrest you for writing it the other way 'round ;-)
Anonymous
Although they can have minor consequences e.g. in stroke count when looking a character up in a character dictionary.
Oh, they are really different!
nods
Also, in high speed calligraphy (I don't know how to call it), which is a form of their arts, I think, they will result in two different things.
Anonymous
There are multiple styles of script, some more connected than others
Anonymous
There is a style of cursive (connected script) called 草書 "grass script"
Anonymous
00:37
草書体(そうしょたい)は、漢字の書体の一つ。 特徴 速く書くことができるように、同じく漢字の筆書体である行書とは異なり、字画の省略が大きく行われる。文字ごとに決まった独特の省略をするため、文字ごとの形を覚えなければ書くことも読むこともできないことが多い。実際は隷書の時代からあったが、一般に使われたのはそれから数百年の月日が過ぎてからである。また、書家による違いが大きい場合もあり、例えば「書」という字は楷書体では1通りの書き方であるのに対し、草書体は幾通りかの書き方がある。 歴史 漢の時代に篆書・隷書から発生したと考えられており、漢代以前にも草書風の書体が見出される。『説文解字』には「漢興って草書有り」と記されている。一説には前漢の史游や後漢の張伯英が発明したとも言われる(中国の書論#書体の創始者を参照)。3世紀に一般化した。 変遷 初期の草書体は「章草」と呼ばれ、現在のように文字を続けて崩していく形式ではなく、1字1字を崩していく形式だった。やがて、これが文章全体を連綿と崩して書く、現在の草書体(今草)へと発展した。 草書の「草」は草稿などの「草」である。また「草」には「下書き」という意味もある(例:起草)。「ぞんざい」という意味もある。 草書体をさらに崩した書体を狂草と呼び、張旭、懐素などの能書家が有名である。 のちに草書を整えた行書が生まれるが、...
To me, that's the real beauty of the script!
Anonymous
I have a stroke order dictionary which shows how to write the characters, and how they're written in more fluid / connected styles like these
Anonymous
Which I find very helpful
Anonymous
Sometimes it's helpful if I can't make out a character for sure, because I can look it up and see if it ends up like that when written rapidly
Ahh...
Anonymous
00:40
Although you do get used to a lot of the ways cursive script differs from the neat unconnected script (called 楷書 kaisho), I still have more difficulty reading it than (I think) most literate native speakers
One-boxing makes that block of text looks like what I've seen in a typical Japanese book when I took a peek at them in Kinokuniya.
I mean, it looks like a wall of text, pages after pages. :)
Anonymous
Though typical Japanese books are printed neatly rather than handwritten :-)
nods
It made me think of Japanese books very differently (from English or Thai books). When they draw (as in manga), they really focus on drawing, when they write (as in novels, textbooks), they really focus on writing (there was almost no illus. in any textbooks I took a peek).
Most Japanese books are still printed top-to-bottom, right-to-left, I think.
Anonymous
Depends on the sort of book.
Anonymous
Almost all fiction is written vertically.
Anonymous
00:47
Many reference books are now printed horizontally. Many are still vertical.
Anonymous
Scientific books and textbooks are more likely to be horizontal, but aren't always.
Anonymous
It really depends.
Oh, it's changing!
Anonymous
Some dictionaries have both vertical and horizontal editions.
Anonymous
Do you remember the pictures of the dictionaries I took for you the other day?
Anonymous
00:48
The character dictionary was vertical, but the word dictionary was horizontal.
Ah, yes.
nods
Anonymous
Sometimes there's a preference for horizontal in reference materials or other works that incorporate a fair amount of English writing.
Oh, my Japanese dictionary is like that too.
Anonymous
Incorporating Latin letters in たてがき (vertical writing) is clumsy.
I have a new theory of the /l/ sound. :)
I can't measure this angle myself. But let's suppose that we can measure this angle: the angle when we touch our tongue to the roof of the mouth in a typical /l/ position, just touch, not press against.
Any sounds made by an angle lower than this angle will be perceived as /l/. :D
Anonymous
00:56
@DamkerngT. Japanese used to be written vertically all the time. People experimented with horizontal writing after the Meiji Restoration and the opening of the borders to the west, but it wasn't really firmly established until the post-war period, I think
Anonymous
In that time of experimentation, you could see horizontal writing that went both to the right and to the left!
Oh, that could be very confusing!
Anonymous
Anonymous
Look down at the bottle in the lower right, which says 理研ヴィタミン, directly over its romanized counterpart RIKEN VITAMIN.
Are we supposed to read those horizontal lines from right to left?
Anonymous
00:58
That's written left-to-right.
Anonymous
Now observe, at the top of the page, ンミタィヴ研理
Ah, I saw it!
Anonymous
Written right-to-left! The exact same thing on the same page.
Anonymous
But written the other way.
Ah! I saw all of them!
Anonymous
00:59
You'll still encounter right-to-left horizontal writing very occasionally in Japanese.
Anonymous
It's commonly explained as a special case of vertical writing with one square per column. That's wrong, though.
The one on the box is written downward. I think that's the correct order.
@snailboat Eh?
Anonymous
You can tell because in vertical writing, the long vowel marker ー is written vertically, but it's not in this sort of horizontal writing. There are similar cues from other bits, like the small ィ you can see pictured.
Anonymous
They appear in different positions in vertical writing.
Anonymous
So this is true horizontal right-to-left writing.
Anonymous
01:01
@DamkerngT. People like to simplify things, and it's easier for them to say "Japanese has vertical writing, which goes top-to-bottom and then right-to-left; and it has horizontal writing, which goes left-to-right and then top-to-bottom." They'd rather not admit the other types of writing because it gums up the theory, but them's the facts :-)
Hehe! I think that's true!
We seem to prefer it that way, to keep theories or ideas simple.
Anonymous
Yeah.
Anonymous
Japanese coordination is really complicated.
I think English coordination can be complicated too. :)
This one just came back once again.
> ?Ranjeet is as fast as or perhaps faster than Rohit.
> Ranjeet is as fast as, or perhaps faster than, Rohit.
> ?Ranjeet is as fast as, or perhaps faster than Rohit.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. S'fine without the commas.
Anonymous
01:07
@DamkerngT. But if you have one comma, you should have the other.
Anonymous
I'm not sure I'd actually notice anything amiss with just one comma, though, if I were reading casually.
Anonymous
01:22
@DamkerngT. Coincidentally, we're figuring out cursive over in the Japanese chat room right now :-)
01:52
@snailboat The seal looks rather like Chinese ones. Perhaps both Japanese and Chinese seals are quite similar.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Yes, they are
Anonymous
Are you planning on lurking only in the Japanese chat? :-)
For a while, I think. :)
I mean, I didn't really know what to add. :D
 
1 hour later…
Anonymous
03:10
2
Q: As fast as Or As fast?

TzD He is as clever if not cleverer than his brother. Ranjeet is as fast as or perhaps faster than Rohit. Are both these sentences correct? As per Wren And Martin High School English Grammar And Composition (BY N.D.V. PRASADA RAO S. CHAND) The first sentence is better like this: He i...

04:42
@snailboat Yup, another instance of Delayed right constituent coordination (CGEL, page 1343-5. :) -- (Though, a more accurate description could be "Delayed right sequence coordination".)
Also, on page 1344, there is that type of coordination within NP structure: "five new and two second-hand copies of his novel"; "Neither the American nor the Russian people".
 
4 hours later…
08:51
> Some people of the same nationality, the same age, the same sex, and the same height are in the room.
Is it just me that this some looks really strange?
I'm being naughty. I've just teased FF a little bit:
@FumbleFingers }:> just playing devil's advocate here, but although the expression has its origin in the XVI century, Manser calls it an "Everyday idiom". — Nico 1 min ago
10
Q: Meaning of 'The Devil was sick, and a saint he would be; the Devil was well, and the devil a saint was he!'

Adil AliI am not able to understand the meaning of this idiomatic phrase: The Devil was sick, and a saint he would be; the Devil was well, and the devil a saint was he!' I think it means "the devil is not all that bad" because the phrase refers to him as being a saint both when he was sick and ill....

@DamkerngT. I like Lucian's answer to that question.
I think repeating the same sounds better. (But I don't like this some people.)
I'm still unsure why I don't like it, but something tells me it sounds wrong.
Perhaps some and the same don't go well together.
And people is kinda special in itself.
Try adding same...
09:00
I think it supports my speculation.
yes, it's fairly uncommon. What would the alternative be?
> some of the people of the same ...
?
I guess, in a in the room context, I would say something like,
> We have a group of people with the same age, same gender, (blah blah blah), with us today.
... I still think Lucian's version sounds good:
> Some people of the same nationality, age, sex, and height are in the room.
I think Lucian's version is possible, but when I say out loud, it sounds a little awkward.
I would repeat "the same" only if I wanted to stress each factor in common.
09:06
Perhaps it depends on the way we choose to say it.
Hmm...
I say it quickly and it doesn't sound as awkward as it was.
But then it's strange, because the whole sentence will have no focus.
The way I would say it is fast until "and the height", and I would stress "are". But I'm not confident that's corrrect.
Then it might sound like nationality, age, and sex aren't as important as height.
I would use the pause to indicate the end of the list.
@Nico That's possible, I think. It depends on what we choose to emphasize on.
As always, context is important.
Logically, all variants are possible.
 
2 hours later…
11:22
@StoneyB Hello!
Well...
 
5 hours later…
16:00
@DamkerngT. That sentence is fine as is. :)
The word "some" is important for that sentence, for if it wasn't there, then that version would have different implicatures.
With "Some people of the same nationality, the same age, the same sex, and the same height are in the room", there is the strong implicature that in this room that there are other people who don't fit that description.
With "People of the same nationality, the same age, the same sex, and the same height are in the room", there is an implicature that everyone in this room fits that description.
 
6 hours later…
22:11
@F.E. Ahh... Thanks! I thought that A group of people might sound better than Some people.
Does somebody have lasagna?
22:32
I have some tea. Is that okay? :)
You have (some) tea? :)
22:47
I just had some. :D
Actually, I'm having it at the moment too.
Would you like to have some too? :)
By the way, a good translation is not an easy thing to do.
Across the Universe is on my TV and it has this line: She is so epic in one song in the movie. The translator chose to use a word which usually means heavy in the sense of severe.
Translating a movie subtitle is usually difficult because the translator usually has only the text, not the movie, to translate.
However, I think this case is the other way around. The translator had to know the image shown at that moment, and probably relied on visual clues too much. (They show a scene of a group of young lads carrying the Liberty Statue on their shoulders. So I think that's where the word heavy came from.)
Have you seen Maleficent yet?
I would've rather that they had made the trailers be the movie.
I saw it twice. Strangely, it was better the 2nd time around. shrugs
I wish they had made the theme song (by Lana Del Rey) be part of the movie--but they only used it for the closing credits. sad
I wish they didn't have the voice-over. That was an immediate indication that they didn't have the time to do their movie right.
23:04
@F.E. That one is too new for me. I usually have to wait for 6 months before I can see any new releases.
And the error at the end, that was bad. They had Maleficent be able to grab the King by the throat, even though he was cloaked in iron/metal. And so, that should have crippled her, but it didn't have any effect on her. So sad
You should search the internet for all the trailers, for the trailers are quite good.
Oh! Its rating on IMDb is 7.5!
Also, search for the them song "Once Upon A Dream" as sung by Lana Del Rey. It is a hauntingly good song. Look at/see the version that uses the song over a trailer of the movie.
@DamkerngT. The professional critics didn't like it at all. I think it was rated around 50 percent--really bad.
The average movie goer seemed to like it, though.
Oh!
The newest movie I've watch is Jack the Giant Slayer, I think.
The most recent trailers gave away too much of the plot of the movie, way too much. And so, there was almost nothing unknown in the movie.
I be a writer. That's why I be looking so critically at the movie.
23:10
Ahh... That's the trend, I think. It seems like the trend now is showing everything they can show in the trailers. (So, there is nothing much left when you see the whole movie.)
@F.E. A subjunctive!
I think Disney was getting desperate near the end, from all the bad reviews. And so, they made some late trailers showing the "goodness" of Maleficent.
@DamkerngT. Ah, but a dialectal subjunctive. I've forgotten what CGEL's evaluation is of that kind of usage. But in my neighborhood, we be saying that kind of usage a lot.
Here's a good trailer, with the theme song done by Lana Del Rey: youtube.com/watch?v=bYrD_l3juoU
Oh, Google looks different (again) today.
Here's a decent Disney trailer: youtube.com/watch?v=w-XO4XiRop0 -- too bad the movie wasn't made like that. sad expression
I was thinking what it would take to novelize (write a novel kinda corresponding to the movie), but make it the way I would want it done. It would expand the story like by 50 percent or more -- due to removing the voice-over and the extra scenes to convey what would be needed. The novel would even be lengthier, because what the movie camera could capture in a few seconds, the writer would instead need pages (even scenes) to get the corresponding effect on the reader.
You can even see the gaps in the final movie, where earlier scenes were cut out, and the voice-overs used in an attempt to bridge over those gaps. The final movie was short--and I think that was the un-intended result of cutting too much out.
23:25
Oh! So you got a discontinuity.
Yes, there were a lot. The movie is only 97 minutes long--which is way too short when you're also showing the early years of Maleficent when she was a child and then a young woman in order to show why she became bitter. You need to show those things as scenes, many scenes. Instead, they had only a few scenes and used a voice-over narrator to drum it into the theater goer. The end result was not satisfying nor convincing.
Then the middle of the movie would need many scenes, scenes to show how evil Maleficent had become, how she took pleasure in being evil. You do that by showing at least a good handful of scenes. But there were very few. And then you would need many scenes to show how Maleficent slowly changes, without her even being aware of the changes, and maybe the audience isn't covertly aware of that changing.
But when the climax then arrives, the audience will say: "What! That can't be! Oh, right, now I remember! Yes, there were those times when she did seem to not be completely evil before. Okay, this makes sense."
A voice-over doesn't allow for this kind of effect, or ending. Voice-over is cheap. It tells how the audience ought to feel. It doesn't do the hard work, that of slowly, steadily, influencing the audience into a certain direction so that the audience naturally comes to that wanted conclusion.
3
Anyhow . . . :)
I be a writer. Though, a tiger got be careful when typing. Must not damage the keys too bad. Touchpads aren't possible for a tiger.
I think I agree with the voice-over issue.
It looks like they care more about visual than the story itself nowadays.
23:43
I think Disney wasn't quite sure who its main audience was to be. The trailers made it look dark, like more of an adult movie. The voice-over and much of the the animation/CGI (characters) seemed to be targeted at children.
Oh, that was another logic flaw. Maleficent turned her side-kick into a horse so she could ride him, as she raced to the castle, but got there too late. But she could have turned him into a dragon and flown there much faster.
The movie needed to show the limitations to Maleficent's powers, to show why she was so weak in the castle at the end. But the movie never did. And so, the audience (me) felt kinda empty, kinda wondering why Maleficent didn't use her spells.
The movie never explained why she didn't even attempt to use her powerful spells at the end.
Nor did the move explain why Maleficent was the only fairy that was that big. Nor why she was able to be so much more powerful than all the other fairies.
Like, did she get her powerfulness from the unique combination of her mother and father?
So, as the movie goes on, all those unanswered questions end up degrading the fictional reality of the movie. The audience ends up merely watching a scene, instead of feeling actually there in a real world.
That's why a novel or movie needs scenes. Many scenes, in order to build up the fictional world, with its rules and limitations, so the audience can realize what is what in that world: what is possible, what isn't possible.
Voice overs don't accomplish that.
And they needed another twist at the end of the movie. Maybe they could have made the 3 bumbling fairies be the key to actually rescuing Maleficent--that would have been a good turnaround. But the movie took the easy way out. And I think the battle at the end was out of sequence--they had it AFTER the key "kiss" scene. The "kiss" scene was the real climax, and so, the final battle scene felt out of place, imo.
Hmm... strange. They kissed and then fought.
Look at the trailers, and when you finally see the movie, then you see what I mean when I say the trailers were a better movie.
@DamkerngT. Er, no. In Sleeping Beauty, the "kiss" is the climax. In the Maleficent movie, the "kiss" is the final reveal.
And so, the "kiss" scene is the climax. It doesn't make sense to have a long combat scene AFTER the climax of the story.
@DamkerngT. Er, different characters "kissed", different from those that fought. The ones that kissed didn't fight each other. :)
23:59
Oh, Angelina Jolie said the wings being ripped off scene was a metaphor for umm... rape!?
(I haven't seen the movie, so I have no idea.)

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