English Language Learners

Bob the zealot

00:00

we are first

yay

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Bob the zealot

yay

this is the new game

►

we are doing it this year

Damkerng T.

00:17

Ah, so you have about a year left to tackle this problem. :-)

Bob the zealot

yup

Anonymous

Good luck!

Bob the zealot

thanks

is anyone still on?

Anonymous

What's up?

Bob the zealot

do you do programming

Anonymous

00:27

Yes.

Bob the zealot

what language

Anonymous

Many.

Anonymous

After a certain point, it doesn't really matter--you just learn whatever language you want to use for your next project

Bob the zealot

i do c++

Anonymous

Yay

Bob the zealot

00:28

do you?

Anonymous

Yes. A significant portion of my career has been in C++

Anonymous

I'm not totally caught up on all the neat C++11/C++14 stuff yet though :-)

Bob the zealot

cool

F.E.

lisp? Prolog?

Bob the zealot

not me

F.E.

00:31

Ada?

Assembly?

Bob the zealot

does anyone do brainfuck (it's a language, don't flag this)

F.E.

Never heard of it. I'll too old.

Bob the zealot

funny name

F.E.

How do you debug ISRs?

Bob the zealot

whats an ISR?

F.E.

00:34

Interrupt Service Routine.

Bob the zealot

oh

F.E.

Every used an In-Circuit Emulator? (ICE)

Bob the zealot

whats your question?

F.E.

Usually, to debug an ISR, you kinda hafta know the assembly of your hardware.

Bob the zealot

oh

F.E.

00:35

Every do embedded programming?

Bob the zealot

im only a starter to programming though

you mean ever?

F.E.

So you learned straight from C++?

They no longer teach using Pascal?

Anonymous

I don't do a lot of low-level stuff. I used to--I'm 32, which is old enough that I used to have to do some asm to get stuff done :-)

Anonymous

I think Pascal is no longer in vogue in schools

Bob the zealot

isn't pascal the math test?

Anonymous

00:37

My brother still does a lot of low-level stuff. There's still a market for it, and the skills are rarer than they used to be

F.E.

When I left grad school, they just started getting into Ada and C for programming classes.

Anonymous

@Bobthezealot Pascal is a language in many ways a lot like C.

Bob the zealot

oh

Anonymous

I learned Pascal when I was little before C. (Both of my parents are programmers.)

F.E.

Pascal was to teach types to students.

Bob the zealot

00:37

your luchy snailboat

Anonymous

They were very different sorts of programmers. My dad's in his 70s, and he did a lot of stuff like OS/360 and so forth.

F.E.

Nowadays, I guess they do embedded debugging on workstations. shrugs

Anonymous

Technology changes quickly, even in one lifetime. In a fraction of one's lifetime. Make sure you keep learning :-)

Anonymous

Don't just pick something like C++ and decide you're just going to do that.

Anonymous

Although it's great that you're learning it!

F.E.

00:39

When I was in Silicon Valley, during the heyday, the startups were still doing "printf()" debugging. Amazing.

Bob the zealot

ok

Anonymous

When I started working here in around ~1999, we were still printf() debugging ;-)

Anonymous

Probably they never stopped.

Anonymous

Although I don't work at that company anymore

Bob the zealot

why not cout

Anonymous

00:40

Same thing.

Bob the zealot

i know

less typing

Anonymous

Well, I mean, not at the detail level. But "printf debugging" is sometimes used to refer to that sort of debugging, even with other stuff besides C's printf() itself.

F.E.

Even today, they are still making the same mistakes, I'll bet. Especially at system level.

Anonymous

When I started learning programming, it was very low-level, and I slowly made my way up through procedural programming and then OOP, and then to FP :-)

Bob the zealot

can we talk about something else, im getting bored

Anonymous

00:42

Oh, no!

Anonymous

I guess I can go back to researching an answer about Japanese grammar :-)

Bob the zealot

Oh, no!

F.E.

Nope, this is the only topic that is legal at this time.

Bob the zealot

I guess I can get back to learning English

Anonymous

What is your first language?

Bob the zealot

00:43

me

are you asking me?

F.E.

No, she's asking the other Bob-the zealot.

Bob the zealot

? what do you mean

F.E.

The guy sitting behind you. She's asking that Bob-the-zealot.

Bob the zealot

programming language or spoken language

F.E.

Either or both.

Bob the zealot

00:46

programming: C++ spoken: Chinese

she wouldn't be asking someone sitting beside her unless you are the person sitting beside her and you are called Bob-the-zealot

F.E.

She wasn't asking me. I'm a tiger. She knows what a tiger's first language is.

Bob the zealot

what

F.E.

Pragmatics. She knows what her first language is. She knows what a tiger's first language is. The 3rd person in our discussion is you. That means, she was asking you.

Bob the zealot

i answered what she asked already

F.E.

No, you answered my question.

Bob the zealot

00:51

whats your question

F.E.

My question that you answered was: "Either or both."

Are you here to practice your conversational English?

Bob the zealot

mabey

F.E.

I got stories, stories about embedded programming, all learned the hard way. Boy, do I got stories.

Bob the zealot

ok

but don't tell any

Anonymous

@Bobthezealot You're a funny guy, Bob. :-)

Bob the zealot

00:54

hahaha

thanks

F.E.

Then that leaves you. Start talking.

Bob the zealot

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/24655/…

Anonymous

I left a comment on your meta question, but a moderator deleted it.

Bob the zealot

aww

Anonymous

Probably 'cause it had an answer in it. :-)

Bob the zealot

00:56

oh

Anonymous

I said choster's answer was okay.

Bob the zealot

ok

Anonymous

Although I think octopi is okay, too, descriptively speaking.

Anonymous

But since some people will look down on you if you say it, the safe alternative octopuses is probably fine.

Anonymous

(Of course, you can probably find people who think that's wrong if you look hard enough :-)

Bob the zealot

00:58

sure

Anonymous

Use octopodes only if you want to tell everyone that you're a pedant or if you're doing it in fun to express your love of language, but not if you're attempting to communicate seriously

Anonymous

It's too rare to be easily understood without being distracting.

Bob the zealot

ok

octopodes

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/24950/the-plural-of-octopus

is probobly not a word

Anonymous

It's a word. Lots of things are words. Being a word doesn't mean much :-)

Bob the zealot

oh

Anonymous

01:04

Words can be common, rare, modern, archaic, appropriate, inappropriate, informal, formal, clumsy, elegant, ugly, lovely, … They can have all sorts of traits. And different traits to different speakers.

Damkerng T.

02:24

lurking...

Damkerng T.

02:48

1

A: Past Perfect or Present Perfect?

I couldn't understand the words they have used. Look at the above statement carefully, it has made of two different times. 'I couldn't understand' is one and another is 'the words they have used' 'I could not understand' talks the simple past. However, 'the words they have used' is where you ne...

Hmm... This answer got a +1.

Damkerng T.

03:36

1

Q: Any English equivalent for the French expression, “endormir quelqu'un avec des propos"?

In French, one can figuratively use the expression, “endormir quelqu'un," meaning that by using some lengthy/boring/loose explanation, we make the interlocutor less vigilant, thereby forgetting about a few things that you know they had in mind but that you want them to forget during the discussi...

translation

This one sounds like "to pull all the five rivers" in Thai. :)

2

Q: Why am I so epic?

Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I so epic?Why am I...

grammar

Finally, someone did what I speculated an easy thing to do. :D

Anonymous

03:55

@DamkerngT. The tip of my tongue never touches the roof of my mouth when I pronounce /l/.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if I should call that part the roof. I probably shouldn't have.

Anonymous

You can.

Anonymous

There's nothing wrong with your description

Damkerng T.

I've seen some native speakers touch their tongues to their lips instead.

Anonymous

Um, I guess that's physically possible. :-)

Damkerng T.

03:57

See, I think of English as Slitherine. :D

Anonymous

I think there's a lot of variation in American English /l/.

Damkerng T.

I tried not to mention dark-l. I hope it can avoid the issue well enough.

Anonymous

Well, I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I believe so. Hmm... Is it fair to say that in all /l/ variances, the tongue must touch some upper part somewhere?

Typos follow me everywhere. :( -- sobbing

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Probably not.

Damkerng T.

04:01

Hah! That's a surprise.

Anonymous

I remember reading a summary (on linguistlist somewhere?) once in which the phonetician in question came to the conclusion that variation in American English /l/ wasn't well studied enough to be described thoroughly

Damkerng T.

curious

Anonymous

Well, besides relatively "dark" (velarized) and "clear" /l/ allophones, there's L-vocalization

Anonymous

But I don't think that's the end of the story

Anonymous

Too bad I didn't put that description down in my notes.

Damkerng T.

04:05

L-vocalization as in "little"?

Anonymous

I don't understand the question, so I'll go for "no"

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what L-vocalization is. (So I thought it might be the syllable l one.)

Anonymous

"Vocalization" meaning "turning it into a vowel (or semivowel)" (although /l/ is already a sonorant, so that's not a big change)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Looks like Bob is having fun on the main.

Anonymous

@Bobthezealot Hey, are you really 14?

Damkerng T.

04:11

I'm not sure if they really are the same person.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, we don't need to worry about that. The ELL mods can sort that out.

Damkerng T.

It's possible that the cloned one is a friend of the real one's.

nods

Anonymous

Ah, I do have this bookmarked, though:

Anonymous

10

A: How can a speaker tell whether their idiolect has "dark l"?

The main difference lies in what part of your tongue enters in contact with your velum (aka soft palate). If you try to pronounce "light" [try with a French accent if that doesn't work with your native Australian pronunciation ;-)] you will notice that the tip of your tongue enters in contact w...

Damkerng T.

By the way, any /l/ sounds are very hard to read on spectrograms.

@snailboat Thanks! -- reading...

> The main difference lies in what part of your tongue enters in contact with your velum (aka soft palate).

Hah! I've never thought of that!

Anonymous

04:15

> Normally you should also notice, in a subsequent phase, that the tip of your tongue touches the front of your palate closer to the teeth, but since you already mentioned that you tend to finish your "dark Ls" with a "w" sound, it is possible that this part is absent in your pronunciation - which is actually quite common in America for instance. On the other hand Received Pronunciation does have both phases.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. A lot of Thais also do that.

Anonymous

If I touch the tip of my tongue to the roof of my mouth while saying an L sound, any L sound, I feel like I'm overarticulating, like pronouncing water with a [t] sound

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Wait. Do you mean the same when /l/ is at the beginning of the word too?

(Like, life, lead, love, etc.)

(I thought "dark l" never happens at the beginning of a word, or at least at the beginning of an utterance.)

Anonymous

I don't agree with using spam flags for those posts.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't have a clear L.

Damkerng T.

04:21

Oh! That's interesting!

0

Q: Is this, 'just any', a mate?

The recipe uses a large amount of pepper, and not just any pepper, but a special blend imported from India. (Merriam-Webster’s) You have to be a member to go there. They won't let just any person in. (Merriam-Webster’s) We don’t publish just any letters: we reject more than half of t...

vocabulary negation

This must sound silly. I don't know what this mate means.

Anonymous

I don't know. Correlative?

Anonymous

It's unclear to me what the poster intends to ask, at least from the title

Damkerng T.

Oh, you don't know that either!?

I thought it was something from CGEL.

Anonymous

I'm looking at the actual question now

Anonymous

It seems that she's asking whether she needs to use just any, or if plain any would work

Damkerng T.

04:24

Probably means "used together as if they were a single word".

Anonymous

Yeah, if they go together as a unit

Damkerng T.

> The recipe uses a large amount of pepper, and not just any pepper, but a special blend imported from India.
You have to be a member to go there. They won't let just any person in.

Both of them sound weird without just. Hmm... The first one is passable, I think.

This reminds me of your hardly any.

Bob the zealot

04:41

hi

hello

Damkerng T.

Hello!

Did you clone yourself?

Bob the zealot

yes

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's not very nice. :)

Bob the zealot

are you a mod?

LOL

Damkerng T.

No, I'm not. You can see the mods by clicking on "Users" on the main page.

Bob the zealot

04:45

oh

good

can you keep a secret for me

Anonymous

I am not an ELL mod

Anonymous

I am a regular ELL user

Damkerng T.

@Bobthezealot Yes?

Bob the zealot

good

are you sure

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I probably shouldn't keep that secret for you. :D

Bob the zealot

04:46

promise?

Damkerng T.

Will any of those three-letter organizations come after me once I know the secret?

Bob the zealot

please

Anonymous

Damkerng fears for his life!

Bob the zealot

whats those three-letter organizations?

Anonymous

You know. No Such Agency.

Damkerng T.

04:48

Umm... Some starts with F, some with C, I ran away from a lab that the name starts with N. Really, I think it could be any letters. :D

Bob the zealot

what do they do?

Damkerng T.

They built me, or that is what I remember.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. That's actually a good question! I wonder why it wasn't asked on ELU?

Bob the zealot

ok im going to tell the secret

FE, are you a mod

Anonymous

F.E. isn't a mod. He doesn't even have an account on ELL

Bob the zealot

04:49

ok

Anonymous

He's a user of the other English site, ELU (English Language & Usage)

Bob the zealot

the secret

is

dun dun dun

I made lots of accounts and getting them to 15 rep, and up voting all my questions and answers

Damkerng T.

Ahh... You're a looper!

Bob the zealot

ahh!

skullpatroll are you a Mod?

skullpatrol

Not me pal :-)

Bob the zealot

04:51

good

the second part of the secret:

Anonymous

Is "lots" three? Because when you type in "Bob the zealot" into users, three accounts show up

Bob the zealot

dun dun dun

Anonymous

Oh, sorry, don't let me interrupt :-)

Bob the zealot

ok

um

uh

Damkerng T.

@F.E. I think it's a good question for both sites!

Bob the zealot

04:54

I am using some accounts to ask really stupid questions and answering with this account, and giving it the best answer

Anonymous

Fiendish!

Bob the zealot

LOL

skullpatrol

:D

Bob the zealot

: )

please don't tell anyone

skullpatrol

It's all good in the hood.

Bob the zealot

04:58

ahh!

helix, are you a mod?

Anonymous

You're just going to ask everyone that from now on, aren't you? :-)

Bob the zealot

yup

Lol

Anonymous

You can find a list of ELL moderators here: ell.stackexchange.com/users?tab=moderators

Bob the zealot

ok

thanks

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Will someone tell the OP that she/he is correct: "or does the word, just, only clarify the speaker’s intention of negating the free choice?" -- it seems to me, that is what is happening--the speaker wanted to use the free choice "any", and had to use "just" there in that sentence in order to do that.

Bob the zealot

05:00

Anonymous

Listenever is a Korean learner of English who has picked up a copy of CGEL, along with a number of other rather technical grammar books, and has also read Harry Potter about a zillion times. :-)

Damkerng T.

@F.E. A kind tiger might tell her that.

Bob the zealot

does anyone have a rubik's cube

Damkerng T.

Not me. My cubic one doesn't work anymore.

F.E.

@snailboat Yes, I think I've answered some of her posts on ELU before, maybe, probably, for I can recall a member or two that was studying out of CGEL and was asking questions about it.

Anonymous

05:02

I used to when I was younger

Bob the zealot

aww

I like to cube

Anonymous

Oh, right! I forgot she was on ELU as well.

Bob the zealot

and that pic was a rubik's cheese

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Er, "kind" tigers don't exist. All tigers are ferocious.

Anonymous

@Bobthezealot Was that all of your secrets?

Damkerng T.

05:05

@F.E. Ahh... I thought anything fluffy is kind. :D

Anonymous

Have you introduced F.E. to Hagu?

Bob the zealot

yup, not the cube though

Anonymous

Oh, the cube part is public knowledge?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Probably not a good idea. My Hagu might become a meal easily. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! I always imagined that Hagu was ferocious, too :-)

Bob the zealot

05:06

@snailboat yes

Damkerng T.

@snailboat He is, particularly to my walls and my legs. :)

F.E.

@snailboat Yes, I don't mind answering questions about CGEL material, as that becomes a sorta review and refresher exercise for me.

Anonymous

Oh, my screen is full of @snailboats

Damkerng T.

Mine too! (I just"highlighted all" snailboats on this tab.)

Bob the zealot

mine too

Damkerng T.

05:12

Hmm, musicals are actually fun, and good for learners.

Bob the zealot

what musicals?

Damkerng T.

I searched for "Naughty" and found Matilda the Musical. :)

Anonymous

Chess is a good musical.

Damkerng T.

^That, too!

Bob the zealot

does anyone do lasermaster?

Anonymous

05:16

I'm unfamiliar with 'lasermaster'

Anonymous

Is that like laser tag?

Bob the zealot

sorry gotta go

Damkerng T.

See you later. :)

Anonymous

See you laser!

F.E.

05:38

. . . yawn . . .

. . . scratch . . . huff . . . scratch . . .

sniff

Damkerng T.

repairing the scratched walls...

F.E.

@DamkerngT. There's another thread on narrative fiction: Fell like dead leaves. -- It's getting bad answers. Perhaps you could enlighten them? :)

Tell them that as each sentence is read, that stuff in the sentence--that is in past-tense--is occurring right then in that scene.

It's as though everyone suddenly forgets all the novels they've read--especially science-fiction novels.

Yeah, I must NOT get an ELL account. (Else, I'll never get any of my own stuff done.)

Damkerng T.

05:56

I think ESN's answer wouldn't be so bad. -- reading...

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