English Language Learners

Fantasier

18:00

@DamkerngT. I think I only use ที่ซึ่ง as ที่ (a pronoun for a place) + ซึ่ง (which)

@AwalGarg Then you shouldn't generalise the fact. It's just your experience!

Damkerng T.

It's kinda tricky, because we could translate that as ที่-ซึ่ง-อัน.

Awal Garg

fa, ok

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. From my experience, ที่ที่ (ที่, a place + ที่, which) is common, too!

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Oh! That's true!

Awal Garg

sb, I can bet, you are a teacher, a good one... I know that for sure

Damkerng T.

18:02

@Fantasier I think our usage is quite like in English, maybe.

Awal Garg

> Drinking and driving is/are a dangerous combination. > Drinking and driving *is/are two different things.

^ whats that?

Fantasier

@AwalGarg What do you mean by "what's that"?

Damkerng T.

It's from an ELL question, I think.

@AwalGarg What's this ME, by the way?

Awal Garg

@Fantasier I mean, you should now refer to me as AG, and not as @AwalGarg :P :)

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. I recall that PEU says something like "what as a free relative is more common than that which in modern English."

Awal Garg

18:04

ahh, dt!

GATA

@snailboat When I was 12 I and my father planted a persimmon tree in the garden of our apartment . At the beginning most of neighbors were complaining about it. Now there is a war for the share of fruits among neighbors.

Awal Garg

dt, ME means - me, I, my, get that?

Damkerng T.

Oh, a big ME.

Anonymous

@Fantasier It's still used, but it's rather formal.

Fantasier

@snailboat Ahh, Thanks!

Damkerng T.

18:06

Perhaps that explains why Thai has such a usage.

Anonymous

People don't usually speak that way in normal conversation, but it's not archaic or anything

Awal Garg

what is PEU, FA?

Fantasier

Practical English Usage. A grammar & usage book.

Damkerng T.

Some people here use a similar version of that which in Thai (ที่ซึ่ง) often enough.

Awal Garg

wow, there are books on grammar!

Fantasier

18:07

@DamkerngT. Sounds a bit too formal (or literary?) to me.

Anonymous

"Oww" means you got hurt

GATA

:)

Fantasier

@AwalGarg There are lots of them.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier In a รัฐวิสาหกิจ meeting, it's quite common. :P

Awal Garg

no, sb, oww means, I am a lil surprised..

Fantasier

18:08

@DamkerngT. Oh, okay ...

Anonymous

I know, it's a common mistake among learners

Anonymous

"Oww" is like "ouch!"

Awal Garg

my "w"s got misplaced, oops();

Damkerng T.

> oops

> $

Awal Garg

dt, what is that?

Damkerng T.

18:11

A prompt.

Anonymous

Probably the output of your oops(); and a following prompt :-)

Awal Garg

let me tell you, I have copyrighted and patented the oops thing :)

Damkerng T.

Okay, gotcha! :-)

Awal Garg

I have done that to a lot of things...

GATA

:) MyVersion.oops();

Awal Garg

18:12

really, LOT of them. :) (Not seriously though)

Damkerng T.

lol

Awal Garg

gt, bad bad

GATA

:D

Awal Garg

any kind of copying stuff, implementing, or otherwise is strictly prohibited. All matters subject to Awal Garg's jurisdiction

How do I know where is a program downloading data, so I don't have to do it again?

Damkerng T.

Sounds like you want to sniff what your program is doing.

Probably not really worth it.

Awal Garg

18:15

bye! powers off!

Damkerng T.

See you!

GATA

cya

Fantasier

...

I'm hungry! This is bad

I had dinner too early today...

Damkerng T.

Oh, it could be bad. :D

Fantasier

I usually have a brunch at around midday then a dinner quite late in the evening.

GATA

18:19

I always try to keep a piece of chocolate in my bag or pocket when I am going out.

Damkerng T.

If I really want to eat something before going to bed soon, I will try chewing slowly.

Really, really slowly.

@GATA I love chocolates! :D

Fantasier

Damkerng: I agree. The OP's third example specifically supports what Michael Swan says on could in the past.123.2 — M.N 1 hour ago

Wait, what?

GATA

Me too :D I need them. i get a headache when i get hungry.

Damkerng T.

I don't see how 123.2 could support the OP's third example.

Fantasier

Me neither

Damkerng T.

18:25

> I told her to get in line. Did it make you feel better? It did. I finally could say something.

Fantasier

Yeah, as you said, say is not even one of the sense verbs.

Damkerng T.

nods

123.2 could in the past
Could is not normally used to say that somebody did something on one occasion in the past (see 122.5).
[...]
However, could can refer to one occasion with certain verbs: see, hear, taste, feel, smell, understand, remember and guess (see 125).
[...]
And we can use could to talk about one occasion with words like hardly or only, that have a negative sense.
[...]
Could can also sometimes refer to one occasion in subordinate clauses.
[...]

Fantasier

en.rocketnews24.com/2014/06/04/…

This looks too tasty

Why do my friends always send me a food link when I'm hungry? -___-

Damkerng T.

Afaict, "I finally could say something" is something somebody did on one occasion in the past, and say is not one of those certain verbs, and there is no hardly or only or any negative sense, and it's not in any subordinate clauses.

@Fantasier Perhaps they knew that you were hungry.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Well, in that example, if you replace that could with manage to, the meaning seems to be different. Maybe as you said, could means he can do it (but in the past), while manage to version means he actually did it. But in the second one I'm struggling to find the nuance.

Damkerng T.

18:30

The family one, or the persuade one?

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. The family one.

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

I think it would be more ambiguous without "it came at a price".

> Then, when it ended and I finally could get my family back, it came at a price, like suddenly being blind.

At first glance, I thought this "I" definitely got the family back. Then I read it again, and I wasn't so sure.

I wouldn't say the speaker/writer misused the word if "I" really got the family back, though.

Fantasier

corpus.byu.edu/coca/x4.asp?t=4085286&ID=643313449

The expanded context (if it is of any help)

Oh, can you open that? I'm not sure.

Damkerng T.

> Please close your browser completely, and then open your browser and start a new session.

Did you copy the link from your history page?

Fantasier

Well, no, I guess it doesn't allow going directly to the frame source.

Damkerng T.

18:39

No. But it offers the "share" feature in your history page.

Fantasier

Damkerng T.

Okay, that works too. Thanks!

Fantasier

Anyway, I captured the whole thing instead :P

(From COCA)

Damkerng T.

Reading that makes me think the writer wasn't able to get his family back.

Hmm... rephrasing it like that is not quite right.

He knew he could get them back, and he was surely thinking about it.

Fantasier

Seems to me he did get his family back, with the price of losing his Sense.

(Whatever that Sense is. Seems to be something magical or such)

Damkerng T.

18:46

I think he would get them back. He might state that explicitly after the excerpt.

I think losing the sight is just a metaphor.

I don't know what this Sense is, though.

Fantasier

Well, he didn't say he lost his sight

The Sense seems to be an ability to control others.

Damkerng T.

Oh, the title is Phantom Sense.

Its genre is sci-fi, so this might be a super-human sense.

Fantasier

Yeah.

Damkerng T.

And getting his family back might make him, well, human.

Fantasier

Uh-huh That's what I think.

Damkerng T.

18:50

nods

Fantasier

Or maybe it's an ability to perceive through others.

But whatever :P Leave my writer part alone.

Damkerng T.

Phantom Sense is a strange name. :)

Fantasier

Hmm... I think I should go to bed :)

Damkerng T.

Have a good sleep!

Fantasier

So this could thingy is left a mystery to me. Hope someone will give a good answer soon. (Doesn't mean that yours is bad, though)

I'd offer a bounty for the question when that's possible :o

Damkerng T.

18:53

Hehe.

It would be great to see any better answer from others.

No, I don't really mind that. It's okay.

I posted it because I was confused by PEU too, and then I thought I solved it.

(When I think I solved anything, I usually feel like I don't have to depend on too many rules.)

Damkerng T.

> Obama also stressed that more sanctions were being prepared against Russia if the West decided it ( Russia) engaged in activities which were destabilishing to Ukraine.

I think the sentence is problematic.

At the time Obama said this, it would be like:

> The more sanctions are being prepared against Russia if the West decided Russia engaged in [such] activities.

It sounds like Obama doesn't know what he is doing.

Then again, it could be read as a bluff.

F.E.

"Then, when it ended and I finally could get my family back, it came at a price, like suddenly being blind."
But I like to read, and so, instead, I walked away. They got to keep my family, and I got to be able to continue to watch TV and movies and read books. Being able to see is important for a tiger. Tigers don't need family, for a tiger is a solitary hunter.

2

Damkerng T.

Oh, it sounds like you were in the story!

Frankly, I think I still can't be sure if he really got his family back. But he definitely got a chance.

F.E.

I skimmed through that thread. -- I didn't read the story that the excerpt came from. From the use of "could" they are talking about doesn't entail that the person actually did something, but rather, there might be an implicature that he did (or will do), and it is usually up to the context to see whether that action had occurred (or will) or won't occur.

Damkerng T.

Note-to-self: Is it possible to substitute if in such sentences with in the case? (Perhaps, I think of it the other way around: in the case replaces if.)

I think my answer is in line with your explanation.

F.E.

19:10

For instance,in "I told her to get in line. Did it make you feel better? It did. I finally could say something."
The last sentence, by itself, only says that he had the opportunity/ability to finally say something. But, from the first sentence in the excerpt, we know that he had actually said something. And so, we know that he finally could say something back then and that he actually had said something back then. But that is due to us having the context from the excerpt.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Can you give an example sentence?

Damkerng T.

The "Obama" one.

> Obama also stressed that more sanctions were being prepared against Russia if the West decided it (Russia) engaged in activities which were destabilishing to Ukraine.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think "X's one" is unusual (or ungrammatical?)

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. I shouldn't write that.

Anonymous

In any case, here Obama's would be a genitive NP in determiner position and would not co-occur with the, I think...

Damkerng T.

19:11

nods -- I remember that.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This seems more like if/in case would be in alternation, not if/in the case

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. That's true too.

This one is like a just in case thing.

So my problem is this: I think in case makes more sense, and I'm not sure if it's always the case that we could replace in case with if, as it was done in the example sentence.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In case can't always replace if

Anonymous

There are two ifs

Anonymous

One is the subordinator usually but not always interchangeable with whether

Anonymous

19:19

> I wonder [ if/whether the turkey is done cooking].

Anonymous

The other has conditional meaning:

Anonymous

> I'll help you [ if/#in case I can ].

Damkerng T.

Perhaps I think it backward, but I think the example sentence (Obama) should be in case, not if.

Anonymous

Did the original sentence have in case?

Damkerng T.

No, it uses if, which is why I think it's problematic.

Anonymous

19:21

I have a bit of a fever, so bear with me if my brain's running a little slow :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, you should get a rest, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I would like this sentence better with in case

Damkerng T.

nods -- That's what I thought.

Anonymous

I'm sitting in bed with my laptop. I can only do so much resting without going out of my mind :-)

Damkerng T.

How bad is your fever now?

Anonymous

19:23

Not too bad.

Damkerng T.

Phew!

Anonymous

Although my baseline temperature is lower than most people's

Damkerng T.

I guess that you already took some pills.

(I can't recall its name. :-)

(I know that you use something different, not aspirin.)

Anonymous

I have acetominophen and ibuprofen

Damkerng T.

Ahh... yes, ibuprofen.

Anonymous

19:24

The former is hepatotoxic (harmful to your liver) so I try to avoid taking it

Anonymous

The latter is relatively safe (although nothing like this is ever entirely safe)

Anonymous

They're both ototoxic (harmful to the ear) in the short-term

Anonymous

At least potentially.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I don't like ototoxic!

Anonymous

Me either.

Anonymous

19:25

I'd rather avoid anything that's ototoxic in the least

Anonymous

I'm a musician, after all.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... sounds are really important.

I'm still missing that 13 kHz. :(

Anonymous

It's okay. 13kHz isn't one of the best kilohertzes. :-)

Damkerng T.

At least that's one good thing about it. :)

Anonymous

As long as your hearing up to 10kHz is relatively intact, it shouldn't interfere much with your (language) listening skills

Damkerng T.

19:30

nods

The doctors seem to really care only about things below 8kHz.

Anonymous

Most NIHL (noise-induced hearing loss) fits Fletcher-Munsen, while ARHL (age-related hearing loss) tends to affect the very top end, gradually getting lower over time

Anonymous

So most people have a dip somewhere around 3k-4kHz if they have NIHL

Anonymous

And most people gradually lose the super highs, 17k+, 15k+, 13k+, as they get older

Damkerng T.

sobbing

Anonymous

A notch around 3-4kHz can make it a lot harder to hear people

Damkerng T.

19:32

I can still hear 16kHz, though. :)

@snailboat Oh, I could imagine that.

Anonymous

My hearing is very good.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

It used to extend a little bit higher than it does, though.

Anonymous

My hearing is slightly impaired right now due to my sinuses

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You know, I think the thing about ELL users not voting is true

Anonymous

19:39

Look how many more votes I get over on Japanese.SE japanese.stackexchange.com/users/1478/snailboat?tab=answers

Damkerng T.

Oh, +225 in a day!

+19 votes and 2 accepts from only two answers.

Anonymous

On ELL, I sometimes get a lot of upvotes, and that happens because questions get promoted so a lot of people see them

Anonymous

But the question about two をs in one sentence didn't get promoted, and I got 14 votes from that anyway!

Anonymous

Somehow I can't imagine that happening on ELL :-)

Damkerng T.

:)

Isn't that strange?

We could get a deeper analysis if we knew where those votes came from.

I mean, for example, the learners, or the answerers.

I didn't vote much last few days.

This month I voted only 53 times.

Typically, it should be around 120-150 votes already.

Still, I'm the top voter this week on ELL anyway.

:D

Anonymous

19:45

Have you passed me as the all-time most votingful yet?

Damkerng T.

I believe not.

I estimate that if we both keep voting at our rates, it should be a few more months.

Anonymous

You're less than 200 votes away!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I also found that some recent questions are particularly difficult. (So I refrain myself from voting. I don't want to vote on what I have no idea about.)

There are not too many of them, but noticeably enough.

Anonymous

Oh? Which sorts of questions?

Damkerng T.

The Obama one, for example. :)

Oh, and "that which" too.

Anonymous

19:50

Oh, I didn't see the question itself

Damkerng T.

1

Q: Wondering if the two sentences below mean the same

Earlier on his arrival in Warsaw the president had met US and Polish air personnel from a detachment of F-16 fighter jets. Obama also stressed that more sanctions were being prepared against Russia if the West decided it ( Russia) engaged in activities which were destabilising to Ukraine. So...

Or even something like this one:

1

Q: Win, Wins, or Won?

Is this grammar correct? "Why condition1 and condition2 wins over condition3." Example: "Why teamwork and ideas wins over smarts". I'm not sure the proper way to form the tense/aspect for "win". I'm saying this has already happened, but it will happen again. For example, we won the ...

grammar tense verb-forms aspect

I was surprised to see CHL wrote:

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You should learn "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

Damkerng T.

> Why teamwork and ideas wins over smarts.

under "Maybe it's a singular subject."

Anonymous

Also "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Perhaps it's like what Fantasier mentioned: PEU mentioned that that which ~ what.

Anonymous

19:53

@DamkerngT. I'm uncomfortable with the singular override there

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, though that which is considerably more formal

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Me too. But not enough to upvote all other answers to differentiate the others from CHL's.

Anonymous

CHL has declared that he will post answers only based on what he can find on the internet, and that he doesn't do books

Anonymous

This made me a little sad inside.

Anonymous

Certainly the internet is an amazing resource!

Damkerng T.

19:55

Oh, CHL declared that!

Anonymous

But… books!

Damkerng T.

I think books are more reliable.

Anonymous

Depends on the book :-)

Anonymous

But I think for any technical topic, books are still the way to go.

Damkerng T.

I've seen many grammar sites exist just because the owner wants to sell their book(s)!

Anonymous

19:56

Unless it's something like PHP where there are no good resources on paper or online, because everyone just does whatever.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

I'm a big believer in books, even in 2014 with the internet as it is.

Damkerng T.

Internet can give us a lot of misinformation.

Anonymous

This is very true.

Anonymous

Gnomic aspect is an interesting term or concept.

Anonymous

20:00

It's used by neither Comrie nor CGEL, nor in Japanese linguistics so far as I'm aware

Damkerng T.

I haven't read that yet.

Where does it come from, then?

Anonymous

Well, in this case from Wikipedia ;-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

Let's take a look.

Anonymous

Gnomic aspect

The gnomic (abbreviated ), also called neutral, generic, or universal aspect, mood, or tense is a grammatical feature (which may refer to aspect, mood, and/or tense) that expresses general truths or aphorisms. Used to describe an aspect, the gnomic is considered neutral by not limiting the flow of time to any particular conception (for example, the conceptions of time as continuous, habitual, perfective, etc.). Used to describe a mood, the gnomic is considered neutral by not limiting the expression of words to the speaker's attitude toward them (e.g. as indicative, subjunctive, potential, e...

Anonymous

20:03

There are a number of citations

Damkerng T.

> The term gnome was introduced by Klaus Berger in the Formgeschichte des Neuen Testaments. He used this traditional term from the antique rhetoric and attempted to identify this rhetorical method in the New Testament.

Essentially, it's a maxim, I think.

Anonymous

In CGEL, "The sun rises in the east." and "Two plus two is four." are said to express "unlimited situations"

Anonymous

(Situation being the term from discussions of lexical aspect, as in our discussion of "multiple situations" the other day)

Anonymous

It's a type of static situation (expresses a state) which is not limited in time

Damkerng T.

Oh, about voting. It might be not so bad. oerkelens got +203 points today, +165 points yesterday.

Anonymous

20:11

Well, I get lots of upvotes sometimes, but usually only when a question's been promoted or I wrote several answers :-)

Damkerng T.

However, only one of those many answers has more than +3 votes.

Oh, maybe more than just one, the way SE lists the votes confuses me a bit.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

Three answers (out of 13) got more than +3 votes.

Anonymous

Yay

Damkerng T.

I still think we (the whole site) could use a good improvement on voting.

Anonymous

20:15

I don't know why people don't vote

Damkerng T.

Perhaps they don't know which one is correct.

Anonymous

Maybe some ELLs don't vote because they don't feel like they can evaluate the answers properly, but that doesn't explain low votes on questions

Damkerng T.

I usually left comments on easy ones and answered only (a few) difficult ones lately.

@snailboat I guess that is exactly what's happening.

Oh, voting on questions is another thing.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It seems reasonable. But then why don't people vote on questions?

Damkerng T.

I guess it's like this:

- Answerers won't vote on questions, unless it's really inspiring to them.

Anonymous

20:18

My votes are in a 5:2 ratio of answer:question

Damkerng T.

- Learners won't vote on questions, because they aren't interested in those which aren't theirs.

Anonymous

That may be true

Damkerng T.

Ahh... My ratio looks much better than the last year!

Anonymous

ELL is different from Japanese.SE

Damkerng T.

It's 13:22 now!

Anonymous

20:19

Or perhaps from any other SE site

Damkerng T.

Oh! I don't know much about other SE sites.

Voting questions is simple for me now.

I just ask myself, would I like to see more of this?

If yes, vote up!

:D

Damkerng T.

Oh, I also noticed another trend.

We upvote comments less than before.

Anonymous

I got the badge for having upvoted comments in the first month of ELL :-)

Anonymous

It was fun to try to get it.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

20:24

I left too many comments, though.

Damkerng T.

I think it's really difficult for anyone to get that now.

What's the badge name, by the way?

Anonymous

Pundit

Anonymous

I have it on Japanese, too! :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes, Stack Exchange feels like a game.

Damkerng T.

Jim is the last one who got it (Awarded aug 25 at 15:01).

Pundit is really difficult on ELL!

Oh, I think Unsung Hero is not a good badge for ELL.

Anonymous

20:28

You're right. Out of my recent comments, only one has risen to above +2

Anonymous

The badges are designed for Stack Overflow

Damkerng T.

I guess it's very useful in other stacks.

Anonymous

Very little attempt has been made, I think, to adapt them to any other SE site

Damkerng T.

Unsung Hero on ELL is another form of Tumbleweed.

Maybe worse. :D

Anonymous

japanese.stackexchange.com/help/badges

Anonymous

20:29

Zero tenacious and unsung hero awarded

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

Hey, Japanese has 13 users with Pundit!

Anonymous

That's more than ELL :-)

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Anonymous

Maybe people upvote on comments more too, over on Japanese

Damkerng T.

20:33

See, I think ELL has a participation problem.

Can you analyze the votes on JSE?

Anonymous

Could be, could be

Anonymous

How much turnover do we have, anyway?

Damkerng T.

How do you measure the turnover?

Anonymous

I don't know.

Damkerng T.

I thought mods would know thing like this. :D

Anonymous

20:36

Shrug :-)

Damkerng T.

They don't provide any tool for this?

Anonymous

Japanese.SE doesn't require a lot of moderating

Anonymous

I do more regular user stuff over there :-)

Anonymous

I don't see any turnover measurement tool thing.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... That's a little strange.

Damkerng T.

20:56

> "As the selling prices of hardware, building materials as well as IT products were under downward pressure due to stiff competition, the company's business environment is expected to be remain challenging in the coming few quarters."

I think a comma before as well as and another after IT products could improve the sentence a bit.

> "As the selling prices of hardware, building materials, as well as IT products, were under downward pressure due to stiff competition, the company's business environment is expected to be remain challenging in the coming few quarters."

Anonymous

21:46

@DamkerngT. I don't have a preference really

Anonymous

I think that the comparative as the selling prices of hardware could be better phrased

Anonymous

Word of the day: umbel!

Anonymous

0

Q: Legitimate usage of "like"?

Is this a legitimate sentence: I look bad like you. Maybe with a comma after "bad"? I'm aware of the alternative "I look as bad as you." - just curious.

as-like

Anonymous

Legit!

Damkerng T.

22:10

Another word of the day: Humboldt

Oh, that' same comma question!

Damkerng T.

22:21

@snailboat It's strange that it sounds natural, but I couldn't find it in any corpus.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, without commenting on this sentence specifically

Anonymous

You can say lots of stuff that sounds natural but has never been said before

Anonymous

There are just a lot of ways to put words together :-)

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