English Language Learners

Anonymous

02:35

15

The term you probably want in this case is Relative Clause. There are other kinds of adjective clauses (i.e, noun-modifying clauses), but relatives are by far the most common and the most complex. In particular, relative clauses, like many subordinate clauses, are subject to a variety of deletion...

Anonymous

3

A: passive Vs active or omission of 'which is'

All of these participial usages are examples, as you suggested, of a syntactic rule that deletes a subject relative pronoun and an auxiliary be from a relative clause. The rule is called Whiz-Deletion. The name is a mnemonic. The Wh- part of Whiz-Deletion comes from the fact that relative prono...

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:18, by Damkerng T.

Hmm... what about things like "The facts mentioned above". A postpositive?

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:18, by snailboat

> The facts ~~that were~~ mentioned above

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:19, by snailboat

> the facts [ ~~that~~ ~~were~~ mentioned above ]

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:25, by Damkerng T.

I think explaining it as ellipsis is possible, but when we use the phrase often enough, it somehow doesn't feel like ellipsis anymore.

Anonymous

02:37

2

A: Include relative pronouns or not?

SHORT ANSWER: No, the writer did not omit a relative pronoun (and linking verb) and Yes, the sentence may be written with ... actions which are necessary ... LONGER ANSWER: It is true that many grammarians treat constructions of this sort as you suggest. They call this construction a reduced rel...

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:25, by snailboat

CGEL just calls it postpositive function.

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:24, by snailboat

Maybe I should abandon the ellipsis analysis

Anonymous

May 13 at 12:24, by snailboat

I've been clinging to it :-)

Anonymous

What to do, what to do . . .

Anonymous

I think the ellipsis analysis is in a sense less basic

Anonymous

02:39

As it often is--I'm usually biased toward explanations without ellipsis when I have a choice

Anonymous

I wonder what motivations we can come up with to go with one analysis or the other

Cerberus

03:06

@snailboat Hello!

0

A: Include relative pronouns or not?

I completely agree with Stoney, but I'd like to add a few remarks. Historically, participles (often) and adjectives (sometimes) have always been used after nouns without being part of a relative clause. There is no evidence that this is elliptical. For that reason, I am not a big fan of this "r...

When Lawler says deleted or reduced he does not mean actual ellipsis occurred: it is just a metaphor.

Which is why I do not use those terms myself (they can be misleading for that reason).

Awal Garg

@snailboat Why isn't afternoon called aftermorning, evening called afteraftermorning, night called afterafteraftermorning?

or morning caled beforeafternoon, evening called afterafternoon, night called afterafterafternoon?

and so?

Cerberus

For aftermorning, there is no specific reason why it was never used.

But words with 2 or more afters sound awkward and too long...

The same applies to beforeafter.

Awal Garg

@Cerberus there is no silly reason to call "noon" as afternoon. the idiotic and unnecessary word "after" in it irritates me...

@Cerberus if only afternoon was rightly called "noon", we can make it softer, and better - beforenoon :)

that, well actually makes sense, cos noon is kinda central point of the day. Like in time, we have GMT...

@Cerberus agree

!!afk

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Peeve away, Awal Garg! Peeve away

Anonymous

@Cerberus The same could be said of all ellipsis.

Anonymous

03:16

Or of subject-auxiliary inversion or other syntactic processes we use to relate constructions to one another

Anonymous

It's neither an argument for or against the analysis

Anonymous

After all, words that aren't there are, well, not there!

Anonymous

Thanks for providing another answer, by the way.

Cerberus

@AwalGarg Huh, what do you mean?

@AwalGarg Yes, but it is not so!

@snailboat I don't think I agree.

Anonymous

That's what Lawler means when he says it's a metaphor. So you're using the word in his quote differently than he intends it.

Cerberus

03:22

He specifically denies the historicity of the construction.

Anonymous

Sure.

Cerberus

True ellipsis presupposes historicity; it's just often hard to prove.

Anonymous

That's your definition of true ellipsis. What do you think makes it a useful definition?

Anonymous

I value synchronic analyses

Cerberus

I think ellipsis, "leaving-out", is inherently diachronic. If that's not what is intended, then why use the word "ellipsis"?

Because, with ellipsis, you assume that one form is the "basis" and another form is a variation.

If there is no historicity, then does it make sense at all to treat one form as the basis and not the other?

Anonymous

03:24

What word would you prefer for relating two constructions with the same meaning when the difference is one having words not present in the other, that can be related in a systematic fashion?

Cerberus

I am not at all opposed to a synchronic analysis btw.!

@snailboat Uhh a short variant and long variant?

But I'm not sure I would link semantics and syntax so closely in this case.

Anonymous

People use all sorts of terms that reflect various theoretical leanings. I don't really see much value in insisting on one term or another among deletion, ellipsis, omission, etc. I do typically reserve elision for omission of sounds

Cerberus

In other words, I don't think the fact that the two constructions mean the same thing should be so paramount in this case.

Anonymous

What term do you use for "false ellipsis"? "False ellipsis"?

Cerberus

@snailboat Well, the problem is that those terms suggest diachronicity to many people, like the OP in the question I linked to in my answer.

@snailboat Hah, that sounds neat.

In some cases, deletion does not suggest diachronicity, such as when the "original" would obviously never be possible. Then it is less problematic to me, such as with wh- words and objects, since there can be no confusion.

Anonymous

03:31

@Cerberus Of

Anonymous

w

Anonymous

G

Anonymous

g

Anonymous

wggg

Cerberus

Haha what are you doing?

Anonymous

03:33

My brother is sending me some files, and my Ubuntu system is unusable under the load

Anonymous

Windows and OS X have similar but different (not quite as bad) problems. Sigh!. Pardon my French. I'm being forced to type this on my phone

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Receiving files results in high CPU load?

Anonymous

Well, not CPU—I wasn't referring to the useless legacy "load" stat you see in uptime/top

Anonymous

Which, by the way, you can still make cycle endlessly upward modulo 1024

Anonymous

Computers are so dumb! :-(. I'm really frustrated right now

Cerberus

03:37

I'm afraid I don't know what that means, but OK hehe.

I sympathise with your plight.

Anonymous

Sorry for swearing and geeking out on you.

Anonymous

Let's play "see if I can type yet"!

Anonymous

wpo

Anonymous

we th

Cerberus

Poor you!

Anonymous

03:39

I'm honestly very confused.

Cerberus

No need to apologize, God damn is perfectly fine.

Anonymous

But I rarely swear.

Cerberus

I don't care about swearing myself either way.

But you may apologize if it makes you feel better hehe.

Anonymous

It's okay. I take back my apology. I'll find a better home for it later.

Anonymous

O wpon

Cerberus

03:50

Haha.

Poor you!

Anonymous

Hello!

Anonymous

Look at me! I'm typing! My computer works!!

Anonymous

I'm like a real engineer, what with being able to type and all.

Anonymous

I have rather low standards for being a real engineer, hence counting myself.

skullpatrol

Being able to type makes you real :D

Anonymous

04:01

@skullpatrol Yay! I'm real!

skullpatrol

@snailboat Hip, Hip, Hooray!!!

Anonymous

I was much happier with FreeBSD, but I abandoned it in 2011

Anonymous

I needed too much stuff that was deliberately non-portable

Anonymous

I think installing Ubuntu was my first mistake.

Anonymous

Stupid computers. :-(

skullpatrol

04:09

I can't believe someone got offended and immediately left the conversation when I said "I'm too old fashion and prefer to read paper books with a pencil-in-hand."

Anonymous

@skullpatrol I like paper books.

Anonymous

I actually very rarely mark them up. There was a while where I did so more often

Anonymous

Do you make notes, highlight, etc. in the book itself? Or is the pencil in hand for your notebook, next to the book?

Cerberus

Woohoo congrats!

Anonymous

@Cerberus OS X has a problem kind of like the one I experienced a few minutes ago. It's not nearly as bad, but it can be awfully frustrating.

Cerberus

04:12

@skullpatrol Haha, who was this nut?

Anonymous

In OS X, if you're doing a lot of disk I/O, mouse clicks can happen later than when you actually click.

Cerberus

@snailboat Hmm how often does that happen to the average Mac user?

Anonymous

The strange thing is, it'll keep processing mouse movement but the clicks get delayed

Cerberus

@snailboat System-wide?

Oh, that's weird.

Anonymous

And then when your click registers, it happens somewhere else.

skullpatrol

04:13

@Cerberus Just some puritine in the math room.

Cerberus

That never happens in Window...

Anonymous

Couple this with another ten-year OS X bug in which a lot of USB mice randomly jump around the screen, particularly under load

Anonymous

And your mouse might jump somewhere else, and then a couple second later, click! You clicked somewhere at random.

Cerberus

Except that some applications can accept mouse clicks delayed, like Firefox. But you can still click outside Firefox just fine.

@skullpatrol Weird!

Anonymous

Since I only use my Mac for Logic Pro, which is relatively demanding in terms of I/O, this can get pretty frustrating. :-(

Anonymous

04:14

@Cerberus The Windows input stack has some problems. But I think the problems it does have are less aggravating than the ones I just described.

skullpatrol

@snailboat Both.

Anonymous

The one that dings me the most often is that the selected input method doesn't kick in until just after you switch windows.

Cerberus

@snailboat So how often does this happen to people who use their Macs intensively?

Anonymous

@Cerberus I have no idea. I'm just me, not all those other people who use Macs intensively.

Cerberus

Selected input method?

Anonymous

04:16

Allow me to explain

Cerberus

@snailboat OK so you have no knowledge of the experiences of friends or family...

Anonymous

Let's say I'm looking at one window, and I see some text.

Anonymous

@Cerberus I know it happens to other people. I can't tell you how extensively.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Anonymous

And I alt-tab and start typing this text in the other window.

Anonymous

04:17

And let's say I have Japanese input selected in the text window, and I'm typing sirukoto (しること)

Cerberus

Right.

How do you mean Japanese input selected?

Anonymous

When I alt-tab to that window, Japanese input kicks in a split second after I alt-tab.

Anonymous

You can switch languages with a language selector thingy in Windows.

Cerberus

In Windows, you click on the keyboard icon on your task bar to switch keyboard layouts, or do so by means of a hotkey.,

Anonymous

Sure, but it remembers. So, if I pick Japanese, it'll stay in Japanese for a while.

Anonymous

04:18

Nonetheless, if I type sirukoto right after alt-tabbing

Anonymous

Most often the first letter or so won't go to Japanese input, and will instead go to English input.

Anonymous

So instead of getting しること I get sいること

Anonymous

Then I notice, backspace, and have to type it again.

Cerberus

I'm still not sure I understand when you are doing what.

Anonymous

Switch to a window. Type stuff.

Cerberus

04:19

I think there are some premises here that I am ignorant of.

Anonymous

It's somewhat frustrating that for a brief moment it uses English input instead of Japanese, and I have no idea why.

Cerberus

How do you pick the Japanese input method?

It happens automatically depending on which application you have active or something?

Anonymous

Alt-`, but it was selected a while before doing any of this.

Cerberus

Selected by hand, by you?

Anonymous

Windows does remember which windows/applications use which input methods, it seems like. I have mine set to just use Japanese.

Anonymous

04:21

Nonetheless, Japanese input doesn't kick in on a given window until right after I switch to it.

Anonymous

My conclusion is that either Microsoft's input stack in general or their Japanese IME in particular is not that great.

Anonymous

I don't know which is true.

Anonymous

But it would make sense that it's broken in general

Cerberus

Okay, so you mean you have your input method set to Japanese. You type some Japanese stuff in window 1. Then you switch to window 2 without changing the input method. Then you immediately start typing in window 2, and the first character will be in English?

Anonymous

Yeah.

Cerberus

04:22

Oh, that is weird.

Anonymous

It only happens if you type in the first fraction of a second after switching windows.

Cerberus

So why does it pick English? Because it is the default input method on your computer or something?

Anonymous

I don't know. Japanese is the default on my computer, actually.

Anonymous

If I knew why it did it, I would tell you. :-)

Cerberus

What if you deleted English from your computer?

Anonymous

04:23

Well, I do like being able to type in English.

Cerberus

Does it also type the first character in Japanese if you switch windows while having English active?

Anonymous

You can type in Latin letters with the Japanese input method. I think I have English disabled right now.

Cerberus

And is this about Microsoft Windows, not OSX?

Anonymous

But if I play a game, I have to add English and delete Japanese

Anonymous

...Yes

Cerberus

04:24

Okay.

Anonymous

Every OS has its input quirks. I haven't met one that hasn't

Cerberus

That is strange indeed.

Luckily, I don't use alternative layouts.

You could make your own layout with Autohotkey to avoid this issue...

Anonymous

No.

Cerberus

And you could have it automatically switch input methods based on lots of contextual factors...

No?

Why not?

Anonymous

Making a Japanese input method with AutoHotKey is a ridiculous idea :-)

Cerberus

04:25

Why?

Anonymous

First, you'd have to implement a morphological analyzer with statistical prediction in AutoHotKey

Cerberus

Huh.

Anonymous

And give a dictionary of hundreds of thousands of terms so you can do the proper kana-kanji conversion.

Cerberus

Then what does your layout do?

Anonymous

And you'd have to come up with a UI for it somehow.

Cerberus

04:26

I thought layouts could only remap keys, but apparently I was wrong.

Anonymous

Japanese input is complicated. The first step, converting Latin characters to Japanese kana, is relatively simple.

Anonymous

The second step, converting kana to kanji, is complicated, largely because there are tens of thousands of kanji

Anonymous

And when you type kan, you don't want to go through a list of 250 kanji and pick the right one, you want the computer to supply the appropriate one in context, or a list of likely candidates

Anonymous

And you want to have some control over the process so you can e.g. alter the word boundaries if it picks them in the wrong spot

Cerberus

Oh, and a keyboard layout can do all this??

I would have expected people to use special programs for stuff like this, or something.

But I suppose it makes sense for Japanese people to have something like this built into Windows.

Anonymous

04:29

It's part of the OS.

Anonymous

Back in Windows 3.11, there were special programs for inputting Japanese.

Cerberus

So it is not really a keyboard layout, but truly an input method.

Anonymous

Starting with Windows 95, there is an input method built-in for Japanese.

Anonymous

Well, you had to install it specially, but it was part of Windows. These days you don't even have to install it, just enable it.

Cerberus

I have no experience at all with non-alphabetic scripts, except a bit of Mycenaean, but I don't need to type that hehe.

Anonymous

04:30

Japanese input is nicer on Windows than on Linux.

Anonymous

Japanese input is decent on OS X.

Cerberus

Good.

Anonymous

OS X, however, does it slightly differently by default, which can be potentially rather confusing

Cerberus

But hey, it's past my bed time...

Anonymous

Have a good night!

Anonymous

04:32

Ooh, I'm still frustrated.

Cerberus

Thanks for the elucidations!

Oh?

But you can type!

How about...if you used Autohotkey to delay the first keypress in a new window by 1 second?

Might that help?

I don't know how well Autohotkey works along with Japanese input.

Anonymous

It's a stress response. I may need to alleviate it by punching a pillow or something. I'm not sure. I don't have much experience with pillow punching.

Anonymous

Besides, I like my pillows.

Cerberus

Try it, it's fun.

Or pop some ehh I don't know what it's called in any language.

Anonymous

Bubble wrap?

Cerberus

04:34

Bubble wrap?

Jinx!

I wonder what that is in Dutch.

Anonymous

A Japanese company invented a toy which is designed to feel like re-poppable bubble wrap.

Cerberus

Looks like my Dutch is worse than my English...

Anonymous

The name means something like infinite bubble wrap

Cerberus

Oh, fun!

I hope you find a vent for your frustration.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol I was thinking about taking notes in the Martin grammar I picked up. It cost me $11, but it was originally a $200 book, and it's gone 39 years without picking up any real wear to speak of, so it kind of feels like it'd be a shame marking it up

Anonymous

04:43

Maybe if I just made notes lightly in pencil :-)

Anonymous

Have you ever seen these little mini-post-it type things people put at the top of pages as bookmarks? I don't know what they're called

Anonymous

I feel like those would be handy.

skullpatrol

@snailboat Yes, I have seen those "post-it" things, but I don't use them.

I make light pencil notes about page references...

Awal Garg

05:04

@snailboat what does that mean in this context?

Anonymous

It means please, continue to call various bits of language idiotic and unnecessary all you like! Peeving is traditional, after all.

Awal Garg

@snailboat so you agree with me? (its rare though!)

Anonymous

@AwalGarg No, I don't agree with you.

Anonymous

But you haven't given me much to agree with yet. What makes you think afternoon is illogical?

Awal Garg

@snailboat greatus! Its cool!

@snailboat because, it is still (almost) noon. What do you call the time after evening, afterevening?

no, cos its still evening :)

Maybe I am missing something, but thats what I think.

Anonymous

05:17

I don't follow. Noon is a point in time, generally 12PM.

Anonymous

We have forenoon (although this word is rare) and afternoon

Anonymous

Evening, on the other hand, is not a point in time

Awal Garg

Yes, I know that. Thats what I am saying, there is no point in defining a point of time with a cute word and calling the time after that with after"cute word"

Welling

Hey, how are you guys?

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Sorry, I have no idea what you're saying.

Awal Garg

05:20

@snailboat and thats why, that is logical to me :)

@snailboat I mean, why do we even need to define 12PM as noon? Why not just call the time around it noon?

Anonymous

@AwalGarg I don't understand this question either

Awal Garg

@snailboat Like we don't define 5PM as evening, we just call the time around it as evening...

Anonymous

So you'd like all words with time reference to refer to spans, never to points in time

Anonymous

So for example, you'd do away with midnight

Awal Garg

@snailboat certainly, blurred things seem so good.

Anonymous

05:22

What about 3PM? Could we keep that one?

Awal Garg

@snailboat What would I do away?

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Nothing, do away with X is an idiom in which do is intransitive

Awal Garg

no, no 3PM, no nPM. Time spans (as you rightly phrased it) is a very good idea..

@snailboat ohh, ok. I misread it oops();

Anonymous

It means "get rid of"

Anonymous

You should draw a clock with bubbles showing approximate spans of time and their new names

Awal Garg

05:26

@snailboat so, do you now get what I meant, and why the present thing is silly?

@snailboat lol

Anonymous

I think you could keep some of them, like morning and evening

Awal Garg

sure I can :p

Anonymous

What about dawn and dusk? Do those count?

Anonymous

Crepuscular animals need to know when they're on the clock.

Awal Garg

They look good only in fables, nothing to do with regular life...

Anonymous

05:27

Crepuscular

Crepuscular animals are those that are active primarily during twilight (i.e. dawn and dusk). Etymology and usage The word crepuscular is derived from the Latin crepusculum, meaning "twilight". Its sense accordingly differs from diurnal and nocturnal behavior, which respectively peak during hours of daylight and dark. The distinction is not absolute however, because crepuscular animals may also be active on a bright moonlit night or on a dull day. The use of the terms is often careless; for example, some animals that are casually described as nocturnal are in fact crepuscular. Special...

Awal Garg

@snailboat nice!

Welling

@snailboat I want you to clarify or help me to understand when to use. "Because of" and "Due to"

Awal Garg

@Welling I am genius!

Anonymous

0

Q: Are "because of" and "due to" interchangable?

Since they can both be followed by a noun or noun phrase. Food prices have increased because of higher oil prices. Food prices have increased due to higher oil prices. Is that always the case?

word-choice

Anonymous

@AwalGarg You are a genius.

Awal Garg

05:35

@snailboat no, he asked how are you guys informally, So, I think my original statement should suffice. (But you made a nice point I normally overlook, bad me :))

Anonymous

@AwalGarg People don't say things like "I am genius" informally.

Awal Garg

@snailboat k, it was meant to be fun :)

Anonymous

Well, I suppose it's technically possible, but it seems kind of odd.

Awal Garg

But, I have heard brilliant english experts plainly say - "Einstein was genius."

So, one should presume, it might be technically correct.

Anonymous

Eh.

Welling

05:37

but still don't quite get differences I have read couple of explanations, maybe I'm just dumb

haha

Anonymous

I suppose you can use genius as a slang like, "That was brilliant!" "That was a genius move, man!"

Awal Garg

I was bugged by a similar question a while ago - "because" vs "as"... thoughts?

Anonymous

But "Einstein was genius"? I feel like that's nonstandard.

Anonymous

@Welling People try to make it sound like there's more of a difference than there really is.

Awal Garg

@snailboat ok, maybe, "a" is to make it clear that "There is only one object"...

Anonymous

05:39

The NOAD has examples of the slang sense of genius as an adjective:

Awal Garg

egs?

Welling

Thanks @snailboat

Anonymous

> informal Very clever or ingenious: 'a genius marketing ploy' 'this book was absolutely genius in parts'

Anonymous

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/genius

Welling

hey im leaving...

talk to you later...

take care

Anonymous

05:40

See you later, Welling!

Awal Garg

@Welling bye...

Anonymous

@AwalGarg A is there because genius is a count noun.

Anonymous

At least in this sense of the word.

Anonymous

You can see it as a non-count noun in phrases like a stroke of genius

Anonymous

But we don't typically say someone is genius

Awal Garg

05:42

so, in "I'm a genius" vs "I'm genius", maybe the former is correct in general. In spoken English, maybe the latter being short and concise makes more sense

Anonymous

No, in spoken English, you'd typically say the former.

Awal Garg

why so?

Anonymous

Because it's grammatical.

Awal Garg

nods

Anonymous

There is a standard adjective, ingenious, which is commonly used

Awal Garg

05:44

@snailboat I really love that word :)

Anonymous

'"Because" vs "as"... thoughts' isn't a very specific question

Anonymous

One is because, the other is as

Awal Garg

it is not a question :)

Anonymous

If you'd like to ask something more specific, there are always the English.SE and ELL.SE sites :-)

Anonymous

Well, you put a question mark on the end.

Awal Garg

05:46

the question mark was to indicate that I am looking for, well... thoughts!

Anonymous

One is because, the other is as

Awal Garg

Look at the following pair of sentences:

1) I can't come because I'm booked.

2) I can't come as I'm booked.

Which one is better?

Anonymous

"Sorry, I'm booked, I can't come" "Sorry, I can't come, I'm booked"

Awal Garg

@snailboat which ones better between the two I mentioned?

Anonymous

Eh. I guess 1.

Awal Garg

05:48

@snailboat then Why?

Anonymous

No reason. You made me pick, forced choice

Anonymous

I probably wouldn't say either of them

Awal Garg

another solid proof, English is weird, it should be packed and sent to Aliens out of the multiverse

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

English is pretty weird.

Awal Garg

05:50

@snailboat no, its not pretty, its plain weird

Anonymous

Silly.

Awal Garg

@snailboat me or english?

Anonymous

You. You interpreted the informal intensifier pretty ("very, considerably") as meaning literally "pretty, beautiful"

Anonymous

I thought you did it on purpose as a joke

Anonymous

Just so you know, moderators can read deleted messages.

Awal Garg

05:52

anyways, please tell me what do I use for joining "obvious" and "wrong"

Anonymous

Joining?

Awal Garg

@snailboat sure, it was referenced to you. btw, anyone can... by history

@snailboat wait, I'll write a sentence below

> It is so obvious, but it is wrong.

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Oh, by history! Of course.

Anonymous

@AwalGarg That seems okay. But makes sense since something that is obvious is expected to be correct (though it may not always be)

Awal Garg

@snailboat let me give an example, you may hate talking about it but thats the only one I have got:)

> It seems obvious that heavier things shall fall faster towards Earth, but as clever Newton proved, they don't!

Anonymous

05:55

@AwalGarg You can see your own messages' history. You can also see the history of other users' messages if you're a room owner or a moderator.

Anonymous

Apart from that, you don't have access to the history.

Anonymous

@AwalGarg But seems fine there, too.

Awal Garg

@snailboat Lets try, hit in a message, quickly delete it (I won't see) and I will try to see it by history...

(And don't use the obnoxious mod powers to deliberately hide it from me)

@snailboat ok, so?

Anonymous

yesterday, by Damkerng T.

Hey, I just invented a new proverb!

Anonymous

Right after this message, there is a deleted message.

Anonymous

05:59

What does it say?

Awal Garg

@snailboat no, there is not :)

Anonymous

Yes, there is.

Anonymous

But you can't see it. I can.

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