English Language Learners

Anonymous

15:00

But he's a heavy downvoter and I often disagree with him, and he posted a comment within seconds of the downvote

Damkerng T.

Oh, I miss the clicking on the votes to see the numbers of upvotes and downvotes.

Anonymous

0

Q: More confusion with relative pronoun ambiguity

What does the relative pronoun refer to in this sentence? It was probably on the darker/smoother side of things, compared to, say, the Sony ZX-1, which I prefer. To me, his preference isn’t clear. It can be inferred in context, but on its own, I think it is ambiguous.

Anonymous

Do you see any attachment ambiguity in this example?

Anonymous

I can't see it.

Damkerng T.

I can.

He might prefer "the darker/smoother side of things".

Anonymous

15:02

Ah!

Anonymous

I just got that reading to click in my brain.

Anonymous

It was pretty hard to force it through my poor little brain :-)

Damkerng T.

I think this is one of those things where non-native speakers have a little edge.

Anonymous

You could use where there but not that

Damkerng T.

Oh!

TYftC!

Anonymous

15:04

I'm looking through unanswered questions in the grammar tag

Anonymous

I started by looking at the syntax tag, but it was relatively barren. Most questions about syntax are in the grammar tag.

Anonymous

Apparently some are now in the syntactic-analysis tag, which is apparently distinct from syntax.

Damkerng T.

I think everyone knows (or roughly knows) what "grammar" is.

But "syntax" would reduce a whole lot of number of people who know.

Anonymous

I don't know what grammar is. I mean, I do, but I don't know what other people know it is.

Anonymous

Everyone knows what their own particular grammar is.

Damkerng T.

15:06

That's why I said roughly knows. :D

Anonymous

Maybe it's everything to do with language, including punctuation and spelling.

Anonymous

Maybe it's morphosyntax.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

For me, it's morphology and syntax. And everything in-between, since there's no clear line dividing the two

Damkerng T.

I think for most people, it's everything about language, apart from vocabulary.

Anonymous

15:07

Yes, but that definition shouldn't be used in a tag on a Q&A site about language.

Anonymous

It makes the tag worthless.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think you have a good point.

Anonymous

I think I do too, but most people don't.

Anonymous

FumbleFingers in particular argues forcefully that grammar is just whatever.

Anonymous

I gave up on that fight on ELL long ago :-)

Damkerng T.

15:08

Oh, I haven't heard about this argument of his.

Anonymous

I mostly ignore ELL tags.

Anonymous

Well, FumbleFingers ignores everything I have to say about theory.

Anonymous

So grammar isn't a particular exception.

Anonymous

That's okay--he doesn't have to listen to me about that. I'm just a snailboat.

Damkerng T.

Hah!?

Anonymous

15:10

That sort of thing is why I've given up on ever arguing seriously about these topics on ELL :-)

Anonymous

Although!

Anonymous

I do still discuss them for fun

Anonymous

Which is different from having a horse in the race.

Anonymous

Probably psychologically much healthier to only discuss them for fun.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

15:11

After all, if I really care that much what an adjective is, I probably need to take a break from the computer :-)

Damkerng T.

Turning things into a race can take away a lot of whatever good in them.

Anonymous

I've had some fun discussions about parts of speech since I decided only to do it for fun.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

Yeah, I just realized there are a lot of people I'll never be able to convince--they prefer to work within their own frameworks, and that's fine insofar as it goes

Anonymous

So I usually duck out of an argument if it seems like the other person is taking it particularly seriously.

Anonymous

15:13

I don't want to have that sort of argument.

Damkerng T.

I think that's why we need to cite references.

Especially by great linguists.

Anonymous

Well, you can provide reasoned arguments, too.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think we can, but perhaps not as carefully as they do (or did).

Anonymous

One reason I like CGEL is that they lay out almost all the arguments for their terminological and theoretical decisions

Damkerng T.

I mean, it takes time to think things through.

Anonymous

15:15

Well, yes, but no one on these sites except Listenever and F.E. will ever look up a reference to CGEL :-)

Damkerng T.

Blame it on its price! :-)

Anonymous

That's fair.

Anonymous

Grammars shouldn't cost so much.

Damkerng T.

I think I would buy it at 30% of its full price.

(which is still rather expensive, btw)

Anonymous

You can get it cheaper used.

Damkerng T.

15:17

Oh, that's a good idea. Why I didn't think of it.

I bought a used book once from ebay.

Anonymous

Well, it was true at one point. Amazon's prices are terrible today :-)

Anonymous

Quirk et al. is considerably cheaper used.

Damkerng T.

looking it up...

38 new from $238.87 28 used from $221.72

What the ...

I can't see any price advantage there!

Anonymous

Boo, Amazon!

Damkerng T.

What is stranger is that the paperback costs more than the hardcover!

What in the world!

> Hardcover $238.87 $238.87 $221.72
Paperback -- $426.54 $426.55

> (Amazon Price New from Used from)

Anonymous

15:20

Um.

Anonymous

What paperback?

Damkerng T.

I don't know. That's what Amazon says.

Link: amazon.com/The-Cambridge-Grammar-English-Language/dp/0521431468

Anonymous

Who would buy an 1842-page paperback? Hmm... What's the largest paperback I have?

Anonymous

I have the omnibus edition of Bone, and that's around 1340 pages.

Damkerng T.

Wow! That's thick.

Anonymous

15:23

I guess it's possible.

Anonymous

Speaking of UI changes...

Anonymous

When you search on Google these days, the tabs at the top don't come in a consistent order.

Anonymous

You can never remember "I'll just click on the second one"

Anonymous

Because Google puts whichever it thinks is more relevant closer to the left.

Anonymous

The effect is that you can never really practice clicking those links, so they always have a relatively high cognitive load.

Damkerng T.

15:25

Oh, so the more you search, what you chose after the search will bump up?

Anonymous

No, it varies by query.

Anonymous

When I searched for "Cambridge Grammar of the English Language" "paperback" just now, it put the "shopping" tab second.

Damkerng T.

Oh, you meant the tabs.

Anonymous

But if I search for "snail", it shows the image tab second.

Anonymous

Yes, the tabs at the top.

Damkerng T.

15:26

Yes, I noticed it, a month already I think.

Very confusing.

Anonymous

I don't see any grounds for referential ambiguity here. I think which in this sentence is unambiguously referring to the NP it follows, the Sony ZX-1. It's a nonrestrictive relative, but they use the same coreference strategies as restrictive. From context, one can infer that the subject pronoun It is also a device of some sort, but it's at the other end of the sentence from the relative pronoun, and pronouns like it normally don't get modified by non-restrictive relative clauses, let alone get those clauses teleported to the other end of the sentence by some mysterious rule. — John Lawler 15 mins ago

Damkerng T.

The first time I noticed it it was because I thought Google didn't allow me to search for images anymore!

Anonymous

The other reading didn't present itself to John Lawler, either.

Damkerng T.

I think probably the ambiguity is less likely for native speakers.

Anonymous

I suppose we might conclude that it's relatively unambiguous.

Damkerng T.

15:28

nods

It's also possible that the sentence might be written by a non-native speaker, considering the OP's comment.

Anonymous

ELU has a lot of non-native speaker participation.

Damkerng T.

ELL too.

Anonymous

Well, yes. :-)

Anonymous

In many cases, the same users, both native and non-.

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Oh, on the two sites.

0

A: "Have you seen her?" or "Did you see her?"

Too close they are. I'm talking about this context now. Though both mean the same, I think putting have there gives a flair of something that has recently happened. If you are asking for Paula to someone just now, have looks better. On the other hand, did is a bit more past. Consider this... Af...

Hmm... I think it falls under what Swan would call it a bad rule.

457.10 bad rules #3

Oh, actually it's not like what Swan wrote about that bad rules.

It's the reverse of what Swan wrote.

Oh, no, it's exactly like what Swan wrote. Some people would recommend the use of the present perfect with more "recent" events, and the simple past with less "recent" ones.

Anonymous

15:45

I wrote up a super short answer.

Nico

you haven't explained why. I'm afraid I will have to donvote :p

Anonymous

Go for it.

Anonymous

I don't know why.

Anonymous

Someone else can write the better answer about why :-)

Nico

:S I'm scared now!

Damkerng T.

15:47

I just did a super quick upvoting. :D

Fantasier

@snailboat A typo: 'seen'?

Anonymous

I was going to write up some spiel about experiential readings or something like that.

Anonymous

@Fantasier Probably. In my answer? My S key hates me.

Damkerng T.

Now your N key hates you. :D

Fantasier

@snailboat Yeah. Did you seen

Damkerng T.

15:48

Or probably it loves you too much.

Anonymous

Thanks!

Fantasier

No problem!

Anonymous

Probably some sort of braino. The N key isn't on the way from the E key to the space bar.

Damkerng T.

Or maybe a copio. It happens to me all the time.

Anonymous

No, no. I typed it. I mean, I probably did. I've already forgotten.

Damkerng T.

15:50

Now it sounds more like a braino indeed. :D

Anonymous

@Nico Don't be scared of me. I'm just a snailboat.

Anonymous

In this case, I thought posting the little answer might be helpful, but there's plenty of room for someone to write a better answer.

Nico

@snailboat I'd have nightmares with a legion of snails seeking vengeance after such an affront.

Damkerng T.

Beware of the snailiator.

Anonymous

I'm really going to have to work on my people skills.

Anonymous

15:54

Everyone's afraid of me! :-)

Nico

Imagine waking up covered in slime

Anonymous

I'll try to be friendlier, okay? :-)

Nico

you'd have to change your avatar for a cat them

Damkerng T.

Or a hamster.

:D

Maybe a picture of a snail and a hamster together.

Fantasier

Or a dragonfly.

....or not

Damkerng T.

15:58

Hmm... What is หิ่งห้อย in English?

That insect with a bulb on their behinds.

Fantasier

Firefly?

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes, firefly. Thanks!

Adding lots of fireflies to an avatar could make your avatar look friendlier.

Nico

lightning bug?

I can't remember the word. Do you mean the ones that glow in the night?

Damkerng T.

Yes, that one. I think firefly is their name.

Oh, lightning bug is another name for fireflies.

Anonymous

Probably anyone who wanted to answer that question about did versus have could look up experiential perfect in their friendly neighborhood grammar.

Nico

16:04

can't do it today :(

Fantasier

I learnt both lightning bug and firefly from the same song, Fireflies.

Anonymous

@Fantasier Where I grew up, they're lightning bugs.

Anonymous

Out here in California, they're fireflies.

Damkerng T.

I learned it from the title of an anime.

Anonymous

Silly, really, considering they don't have fireflies out here.

Anonymous

16:05

@DamkerngT. Hotaru no Haka

Fantasier

Oh I watched that one.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

Grave of the Fireflies (1988)

Fantasier

And have a DVD :)

Damkerng T.

It was a very sad anime.

Nice!

Anonymous

A discussion of the experiential perfect will typically contrast with the simple past.

Damkerng T.

16:06

Strange that searching for "experiential perfect" didn't get me to Wikipedia.

Fantasier

In the Canonical Post, StoneyB says it's the same as existential perfect.

Anonymous

Yes, that's right.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Wikipedia is not a great resource for grammar.

Fantasier

He doesn't give the contrast though.

Anonymous

Or other linguistics topics.

Anonymous

16:08

It has many details which are correct, many which are not, and a whole mish-mash of things from different theoretical frameworks that don't fit together with no real indication that that is the case

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess you're right. Searching for "existential perfect" didn't get me to Wikipedia either.

Fantasier

I actually found IPA for X language pages on Wikipedia quite useful.

Damkerng T.

Seems like Wikipedia does better in phonetics than in grammar.

Anonymous

@Fantasier It's useful enough, but editors on Wikipedia all seem to do IPA differently than other resources

Anonymous

As for sounds corresponding to IPA, these are more reliable than Wikipedia's recordings: web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/charts/IPAlab/IPAlab.htm

2

Fantasier

16:11

Ah, that's sad. Kinda.

Anonymous

For example, the IPA for Japanese on Wikipedia is different from both Vance and Labrune

Damkerng T.

bookmarked the page quietly...

Anonymous

And it's done inconsistently from page to page.

Anonymous

U (kana)

う in hiragana or ウ in katakana (romanised u) is one of the Japanese kana, each of which represents one mora. In the modern Japanese system of alphabetical order, they occupy the third place in the modern Gojūon (五十音) system of collating kana. In the Iroha, they occupied the 24th position, between む and ゐ. In the Gojūon chart (ordered by columns, from right to left), う lies in the first column (あ行, "column A") and the third row (う段, "row U"). Both represent the sound . In the Ainu language, the small katakana ゥ represents a diphthong, and is written as w in the Latin alphabet. {|class=...

Anonymous

> Both represent the sound [u͍].

Anonymous

16:13

Japanese phonology

This article deals with the phonology (i.e. the sound system) of Standard Japanese. Consonants {| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;" |+Consonant phonemes |- ! ! colspan=2 | Bilabial ! colspan=2 | Alveolar ! colspan=2 | Post-alveolar ! colspan=2 | Palatal ! colspan=2 | Velar ! colspan=2 | Uvular ! colspan=2 | Glottal |- ! Nasal |width=20px style="border-right: 0;"| ||width=20px style="border-left: 0;"| |width=20px style="border-right: 0;"| ||width=20px style="border-left: 0;"| | colspan=2 | | colspan=2 | | colspan=2 | |width=20px style="border-right: 0;"| ||width=20px s...

Anonymous

> This is a somewhat centralized close back compressed vowel, [ɯᵝ] pronounced with the lips compressed toward each other but neither rounded like [u] nor spread to the sides like [ɯ].

Anonymous

One page writes ɯᵝ everywhere, some other pages write u͍ everywhere, and the cited Vance writes ɯ

Fantasier

Inconsistent indeed.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think it's sort of like somewhere between [u] and [ɯ]. I think it's usually closer to [ɯ] than [u].

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, the key thing to remember with IPA is that the symbols aren't specified exactly.

Anonymous

16:16

It's [ɯ] if and when I tell you what I mean by [ɯ] and that happen to describe it accurately

Anonymous

You just have to make it clear what you mean by a symbol, then stick to that symbol. And hopefully not be too far off what people expect :-)

Damkerng T.

I think you're right.

Anonymous

Consistency is a plus.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just noticed this part "but neither rounded like [u]".

Anonymous

The "compressed" description is borrowed from Vance.

Damkerng T.

16:18

I think [u] (the English's one) doesn't have to be rounded.

Anonymous

I think it varies from language to language. French's [u] is more rounded.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps IPA's [u] must be rounded, technically?

Anonymous

amazon.com/Handbook-International-Phonetic-Association-Alphabet/…

Fantasier

That's large :O

Damkerng T.

Have you tried a book in Kindle Edition?

Anonymous

16:22

I don't have a Kindle.

Anonymous

Well, my housemate has one.

Damkerng T.

I think you can read a Kindle book on any mobile device nowadays.

But I take that as a no. :-)

Anonymous

Can you really?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I downloaded a few freebies and read them on my iPad.

Anonymous

Oh, that's nice.

Fantasier

16:23

Is it .mobi?

Damkerng T.

Yes, it's .mobi, but a protected one.

What I thought is that Kindle Edition looks really like EPUB, so I'm not sure about technical books.

Fantasier

I see.

Anonymous

Ooh, it's going to take me forever to get to 3000 reputation on ELU.

Damkerng T.

How come? I think you just posted one answer today.

Nico

I'm sure it's getting closer

Anonymous

16:25

I posted three.

Anonymous

One was semi-popular! It got five upvotes :-)

Anonymous

And one downvote!

Damkerng T.

That +48. :)

Anonymous

But now I need to find another +52, which means I need to write more answers.

Damkerng T.

Hee.

Anonymous

16:29

Or I could just whine about it on ELL chat, since that seems to give me upvotes.

Anonymous

Hooray!

Anonymous

No, seriously, I need to find stuff to write answers about :-)

Anonymous

Please don't upvote me just because I'm whiny! ;-)

Anonymous

You know the system's going to undo any serial upvoting.

Damkerng T.

No, I didn't do anything because of that. I think it's fun to be a secret Santa sometimes. :D

Anonymous

16:30

Whoever you are.

Anonymous

english.stackexchange.com/users/28567/snailboat?tab=reputation

Damkerng T.

I think five or six upvotes on good answers should do no harm. :D

Anonymous

And then I'll have to find a question to answer to get my reputation back up to 3000... :-)

Damkerng T.

Remember that we all were in that "What is a marauder?" together? :-)

Anonymous

Haha, oh god.

Anonymous

16:33

Hey, I wrote a serious answer! 'Cause answering is serious.

Anonymous

10

A: What's a “marauder”?

Maraud is a rare verb, originally borrowed from French marauder. Collins defines it like this: to wander or raid in search of plunder Although this verb as such was never terribly common, I would suggest that it is now unlikely to be familiar to most speakers. Today we have instead two de...

Anonymous

7

Q: What is the difference between "special" and "especial"?

I can decide accurately which to use in a given context, but I can't make out the actual difference in definition between "special" and "especial". I have searched two authoritative dictionaries to no avail.

meaning differences adjectives

Anonymous

This is a good question.

Anonymous

7

A: What is the difference between "special" and "especial"?

In every use, especial can be replaced by special with no change in meaning. The word special does have some meanings especial does not have, such as "of or relating to a species" and as a euphemism for handicapped. Also, the phrase a special to mean an unusual offer or deal has no corresponding ...

Anonymous

This is a strange answer.

Anonymous

16:35

5

A: What is the difference between "special" and "especial"?

I agree with all that David Schwartz wrote in his answer. However, I think someone should tell you that almost nobody uses the word "especial." See this NGram of special vs. especial, corpus English, 1800-2008. (The NGram looks similar for both British English and American English.) I think esp...

Anonymous

This is a good answer.

Damkerng T.

7

Q: 'especially' vs. 'particularly'

I was reading this sentence, During high school I was very talented student especially in math. Automatically, I mentally corrected it as, During high school, I was a talented student, particularly in mathematics. Then I paused, thinking why I replaced that especially with particularl...

word-usage writing

So is this. :D

Anonymous

Let's all upvote JLG's answer about especial because it's good.

Anonymous

Hey, I left a comment over there!

Anonymous

By the way, a common mistake among learners is using the word *especial when they should be using the far more common special. (It's not terribly relevant here, but I thought I'd mention it anyway :-) — snailplane Jan 24 at 23:39

Damkerng T.

16:36

Oh, you did!

Anonymous

Well, tomorrow after the serial upvoting detection script runs, we'll see if your upvotes disappear.

Anonymous

Whoever you are.

Damkerng T.

I will see to it.

I know that there are tons of things that I could upvotes on ELU (and maybe on ELL too). I just missed them when they first appeared.

Anonymous

Uh-huh.

Anonymous

There are lots of posts on both sites.

Damkerng T.

16:41

No, I mean only good stuff.

Anonymous

ELL has over 19,000 posts.

Anonymous

Of those, many are good.

Anonymous

I have voted on less than 1 in 5

Anonymous

But I have a lot of votes, over 3400.

Damkerng T.

I've voted even lesser than that.

Anonymous

16:43

I'm still the #1 voter on ELL.

Damkerng T.

Maybe not for long. ;-)

Anonymous

And on Japanese.

Anonymous

I have over 4000 votes there.

Damkerng T.

nods

The ratio of my votes between Q:A = 1.0:1.8.

Oh, that's exactly the same as the 1.8 site's answer ratio!

Anonymous

Mine is 1.0:2.2 on ELL.

Anonymous

16:48

Ahh, ELU still has General Reference.

Anonymous

I thought I remembered someone saying they missed it.

Damkerng T.

As a reason for voting to close?

1

Q: The nuance of 'in' and 'inside'

See these sentences: See there, it seems that someone is inside the house. OVER See there, it seems that someone is in the house. Another example: The doctors found two bullets in his body. OVER The doctors found two bullets inside his body. Certainly, both are interchangeable, ar...

word-choice

Quite difficult to explain. I think I can't explain it.

Anonymous

Me either.

Anonymous

I might be able to if I looked it up.

Anonymous

Today, I am too lazy.

Anonymous

16:51

My head hurts.

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Which/that in a justification

I hesitate between which and that after because : I prefer orange cars because blue cars would be thought as the police which/that is always aggressive. Is it a restrictive/non-restrictive issue here ?

that which

Which vs. that popped up so many times on ELL.

Anonymous

Which can be used in restrictive relative clauses. — snailplane 16 secs ago

Damkerng T.

I can't find that post by StoneyB (about which vs. that). I remember he posted a really good one. Maybe you posted some good answers too.

Anonymous

I've mentioned it in some answers.

Transcript for