English Language Learners

Anonymous

06:15

I took that English vocabulary test again. It was cheating, since I learned some of the words on it specifically because I saw them on the test last time.

Anonymous

So it biased my score upwards, and I got a slightly better score.

Anonymous

Yay! I'm a cheater!

Anonymous

06:46

I took a Japanese one, too. I didn't do quite as well.

Anonymous

*sniffle*

Nico

06:57

@snailboat I can't believe you used the word "cromulent" in this room :p

Anonymous

@Nico Why not? It's perfectly, um, er...

Nico

perfectly cromulent?

Anonymous

Yes! That's the word! ;-)

Nico

:)

Anonymous

Cromulent has gained wide currency in recent years.

Anonymous

06:59

It has embiggened us all.

Nico

so... is this word just a word David X cohen came up with in a TV show and now is fun to use? Why did he invented the word?

Anonymous

The Simpsons is known for wordplay.

Anonymous

It was funny.

Nico

It is. It got to trip my current version of Artha.

artha.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Home

Anonymous

►

Nico

07:04

Perfect! There should be a link to that video in both the entries for cromulent and embiggen.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/…

I'm not sure about the copyrigth thing :( *sigh*

Anonymous

Me either.

Anonymous

But you can cite it without linking to the video directly.

Anonymous

Ah, it's already cited.

Anonymous

> 1996, Dan Greaney, The Simpsons, episode 3F13: “Lisa the Iconoclast”, credits, beneath the statue of Jebediah Springfield: "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

Anonymous

Although the actual quote that introduces it isn't cited, I guess.

Anonymous

07:09

Ah, it's cited at cromulent

Nico

I've just found it.

Anonymous

> 1996 February 18, Matt Groening et al., “Lisa the Iconoclast”, The Simpsons season 7 episode 16:

Anonymous

> Mrs. Krabappel: "Embiggens"? I never heard that word before moving to Springfield.
> Ms. Hoover: I don't know why, it's a perfectly cromulent word.
> […]
> Principal Skinner: He's embiggened that role with his cromulent performance.

Anonymous

I think citing it in text format works well.

Nico

I think someone was having a laugh:

> The characterization of "cromulent" as a nonce-word is more appropriate than slang. It was invented for a particular occasion. The etymology may be from the Dutch krom or the German krumm, meaning "crooked" or "bent", but which in turn has such strange derviative expressions such as zich krom lachen, krom spreken and zich krom werken. This etymology is speculative, and should not be a part of the article without further verification. Groening's ancestry was Mennonite German, and he spoke German (perhaps a low German) at home when he was young.

Anonymous

07:14

There is no doubt that cromulent is a word.

Nico

but would you go as far as proposing an etymology?

Anonymous

No.

Nico

Do you think "cromulent" has become so common that people could use it in a serious context (I mean without trying to be funny)?

Anonymous

People do now and then.

Anonymous

There's a big grey area where you can use it seriously but it still sounds kind of humorous.

Nico

07:22

my firefox doesn't like wordie.org (bad certificate domain) -- *another sigh*

This makes a favour to no one

wordie.org/words/cromulent

> mcbaine commented on the word cromulent

I was unaware of the Simpsons episode in which this word was used. I am however familiar with the word used in the British comedy series Black Adder. Original air date of the Black Adder episode (Ink and Inkability), according to Wikipedia, in which this word appears is 09/24/1987. The Simpsons episode however was aired on 02/18/1996.

There is some discrepancy as the word "cromulent" does not appear in the original Black Adder script but Rowan Atkinson does in fact say the word cromulent on film. As I own the DVD and have watched that episode sev…

Anonymous

Haha.

Anonymous

I don't know contrafibularity!

Nico

dailymotion.com/video/…

Anonymous

Cromulent definitely began its life as a nonceword, but a lot of people use it now.

Anonymous

I feel comfortable using it in most situations, but I probably wouldn't use it in a very formal situation

Nico

07:29

ROL (this episode is great!)

"It's the most pointless book since how to learn French was trasnlated into French" :D

Anonymous

Hehe!

Nico

"I'm delighted to be instrumental in keeping your bossom free of arses" (British is humour is unique!)

Jane Austen is a huge, Yorkshire, bearded man? :)

6'50''

Anonymous

08:05

Six foot fifty is rather tall.

Nico

indeed, about 3.1 metres

Anonymous

I joined Reddit yesterday and posted a little bit about Japanese.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, today I received my first downvote.

Anonymous

Since I derive my sense of self worth from imaginary internet points, I am now sad.

Nico

who dare downvote you!!!?

Anonymous

08:08

Haha!

Anonymous

It's a fact of life on Stack Exchange. I've had posts on all of ELL, ELU, and JL downvoted.

Anonymous

(Poor JL. It lost its U! I really liked typing "JLU".)

Anonymous

It seems like it's a fact of life on Reddit, too.

Nico

I thought one gets immunised to downvote after the first few.

Anonymous

Oh, probably.

Anonymous

08:10

It's my first downvote on Reddit. Yippee!

Anonymous

Is there a way to look at your list of downvotes?

Anonymous

Ooh, check this out: japanese.stackexchange.com/reputation

Nico

not enough privileges

Anonymous

Oh, er

Anonymous

I meant to link to the one on ELL

Anonymous

08:12

ell.stackexchange.com/reputation

Anonymous

I've received one downvote on Japanese.SE

Anonymous

Eight downvotes on ELL

Anonymous

And five downvotes on English

Nico

only?

Anonymous

I guess? I don't know. I could be misinterpreting the numbers.

Anonymous

08:18

19

A: What is the opposite of "abbreviation"?

I'd go with expansion if I were forced to fill in the blank (although I'm more comfortable with expansion of than expansion for). You can expand an acronym. However, it would be more usual to say: What does ELL stand for? Or: ELL stands for English Language Learners. Especially in n...

Anonymous

This was downvoted!

Anonymous

A-ha

Anonymous

Some of those -2s are when I voted down twice. (I'm a jerk!)

Anonymous

I'm checking on ELU because I've had the least activity there.

Nico

I've got 8 downvotes on ELL so far

Anonymous

08:20

I've had 3 downvotes on ELU.

Anonymous

I counted!

Anonymous

That sounds reasonable since I haven't participated much there.

Nico

Can you downvote twice?

Anonymous

Not on the same post. Just in the same day.

Anonymous

That reputation printout isn't as handy as I thought it would be.

Nico

08:22

Do you know of any other URLs like that one?

do you think it's possible to get all our questions and answers?

Anonymous

76

Q: List of unlinked pages on Stack Exchange sites

Here is a list of special, unlinked pages (they may be linked in questions and answers) on Stack Exchange sites. Most pages listed here are work in progress. Currently, this list is incomplete. /reputation - show your reputation and where it came from /election - elect moderators /posts/<id>/ti...

Anonymous

This is where I found it

Nico

I only know of this

data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/queries?order_by=featured

Anonymous

Ahh, the data explorer thingy!

Anonymous

I have too many answers to want to count my downvotes by hand on ELL.

Anonymous

08:32

Actually, it's only 12 pages. I suppose that if I wanted to, that wouldn't be too bad.

Anonymous

Hey, I got serially downvoted one day!

Anonymous

It was okay since I hit the rep cap anyway :-)

Anonymous

Ohh, serial downvoting reversed!

Anonymous

Yippee!

Anonymous

I guess it's worth it to check. I can see if there are any answers I should fix or remove or such.

Anonymous

08:39

And it'll only take five minutes.

Anonymous

Aw, the unaccept indicator looks so sad.

Anonymous

Okay!

Anonymous

Grand total: six! I have six posts on the site that have been downvoted.

Anonymous

Out of 326.

Anonymous

So about 2%.

Anonymous

08:43

So with what little data I have here, with all its problems, I find:

Anonymous

I get downvotes 4x as often on ELU as ELL!

Anonymous

Maybe I deserve more downvotes on ELL. Are we strict or lenient around here?

Anonymous

Maybe people are nice to me on ELL because they recognize my name. :-)

Damkerng T.

I just got two downvotes today, I think.

Hello!

Anonymous

Do you think people are influenced by how new users are?

Damkerng T.

08:47

I think people are influenced by rep points. :D

Anonymous

I feel like over time I find myself softening to people whose names I remember, more like they're old friends. I don't know if it influences me.

Anonymous

Even people who I've never managed to have a friendly exchange with.

Anonymous

"Oh, it's old whatsername! I remember them! Yay!"

Damkerng T.

That's quite likely.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. So I should give away more reputation in bounties so I can be judged more fairly! ;-)

Damkerng T.

08:49

Hah!

@snailboat See what those tests can do to us!

"Lisa the Iconoclast" -- What a title!

Hmm... come to think of it, it's my first real downvote on ELL.

(I don't care much about the downvotes on my sockpuppet question.)

Anonymous

What did you get downvoted?

Damkerng T.

Oh, maybe not, I found another one.

This one: ell.stackexchange.com/a/23081/3281

Maybe I didn't write it very carefully. I was kinda sleepy a little.

Anonymous

I'm comfortable with my five downvoted posts.

Anonymous

For what it's worth, I upvoted that particular post, and Kaz's answer as well.

Damkerng T.

I think Kaz pointed out some important thing for the OP.

Even chapka did that too.

Anonymous

09:02

Chapka is a valuable contributor.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I didn't upvote that comment because it's already highly upvoted and I feel weird upvoting a comment past the rating of the post it's on.

Damkerng T.

I didn't want to post that answer of mine at first, until I saw an answer saying that deep is an adverb.

Anonymous

That user posts a lot of things I disagree with.

Anonymous

I've noticed that when one answer is downvoted, others are much more likely to be downvoted.

Damkerng T.

09:04

So, it's more than two months from the last downvote I got (which I already forgot about it): ell.stackexchange.com/a/17572/3281

@snailboat Maybe some people think they know better. (It would be better if they say something, not necessarily to the answers they downvoted, but for the OP.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, that was me.

Anonymous

I must have clicked wrong.

Anonymous

If you edit it I can change it to an upvote

Damkerng T.

Oh! That was you!

So do you really want to upvote it?

(You don't have to.)

Anonymous

Well, I just took the time to read it and it seemed like a good answer.

Anonymous

09:07

Actually, reading the answer was the easy part.

Anonymous

Reading the question was the hard part :-)

Damkerng T.

Okay, I deleted one space.

:D

Anonymous

I do click wrong sometimes. Especially using the mobile interface.

Anonymous

I don't think I do it very often.

Anonymous

But there have been a couple times I came back and was surprised to see a vote.

Damkerng T.

09:08

I click a wrong button quite often enough.

Anonymous

I've also voted once or twice scrolling down the screen on my iPhone.

Damkerng T.

I think SE understands that, so they provide a short time for the voters to change their minds.

Anonymous

Oh, yeah.

Anonymous

Usually I notice and change it when I click wrong.

Anonymous

That happens to me pretty frequently :-)

Damkerng T.

09:09

Hmm... should I say "provide the voters a short time" instead?

Anonymous

No, the votes don't get a time, the voters do.

Anonymous

Your original sentence was fine

Anonymous

Hmm.

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks, and thanks. :D

Anonymous

"Provide the voters a short time" might be an improvement

Anonymous

09:10

Now that you put that R in there :-)

Damkerng T.

Heehee.

I don't know how short is that short, that we can still change our votes. Maybe fifteen seconds?

Anonymous

I think it's five minutes.

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's very long.

Anonymous

This old answer of mine got a downvote:

Anonymous

4

A: Are the meanings of "free" and "FREE" the same in "Totally FREE service"?

it's not a matter of grammar, but of style. capitalized words stand out because of CONTRAST. if i decided to write in all-lowercase, even though it wouldn't be stylistically appropriate for a formal paper, it still wouldn't be ungrammatical. arguably, some sentences become ungrammatical with i...

Anonymous

09:13

Someone originally edited my unusual capitalization away. I rolled it back today. Mischievous of me!

Damkerng T.

LOL (because of the ad)

Anonymous

Hah

Damkerng T.

It says FREE (but not actually free).

It seems like they didn't make my their minds.

Anonymous

The picture reminds me of the trait known as "hitchhiker's thumb".

Anonymous

udel.edu/~mcdonald/myththumb.html

Damkerng T.

09:15

I also found all-caps is typically used in movie scripts.

(Now I'm not sure if I should write "allcap(s)" or "all-cap(s)".)

Anonymous

Sure. A SENTENCE IN ALL-CAPS IS NO LESS GRAMMATICAL than one in lower cae.

Anonymous

I just echoed what you did.

Anonymous

But I think I would normally write it with a space.

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the tip (and the echo)!

@snailboat I can do only at about 45 degrees!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'm somewhere between 30 and 45.

Damkerng T.

09:19

Yes, I think I got the same range, it's just closer to 45 than to 30.

Anonymous

I'm not good at gauging that kind of thing by eye.

Awal Garg

ho ho... santa here...

Anonymous

So I gave a relatively wide range because otherwise I'd probably be wrong :-)

Damkerng T.

Eh, I didn't see eye gauging mentioned in the page, but I'm not good at it either.

Oh, is Christmas near already?

Anonymous

Oh, I guess I just assumed that the author of the page measured :-)

Anonymous

09:21

> Glass and Kistler (1953) did a similar study, except they used a protractor held against the outside of the thumb to measure the thumb angle

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

Protractor!

Damkerng T.

I have a few of them!

I also had one slide rule!

(I might still have it, but I don't know where it is.)

Anonymous

I've never had a slide rule.

Anonymous

I've heard some people lament that kids these days, growing up without slide rules, are missing something-or-other

Damkerng T.

09:23

Hmm... I tried searching for an image of protractor, and almost all of them are round. (Most of mine are square. I have one or two of them round, I think.)

Anonymous

Most are indeed round.

Anonymous

I'm sure if you wanted to, you could search for square protractor.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, I miss those phones with a dialer.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Rotary phones?

Damkerng T.

And its dialing sound: tap, tap, tap, ...

Yes. :-)

Anonymous

09:25

I remember those.

Anonymous

We had touch tone dialing by the time I was born, I think, but

Anonymous

The phones we had in the 80s and early 90s all had pulse modes. If you bumped the switch it'd switch

Anonymous

And we still had one rotary phone.

Damkerng T.

Yeah! It's neat, isn't it?

Anonymous

And of course, computers had (in HAYES modem commands) ATDT and ATDP

Damkerng T.

09:26

It will take us about at least half a minute before we can finish a dialing. :-)

Anonymous

My brother always tried to negotiate handshakes with modems using his voice.

Anonymous

My brother was funny. :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I tried that too.

uuu eee uuu eee uuu eeeee...

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

You're funny, too, then :-)

Damkerng T.

09:27

Thanks. :D

I wasn't very successful at it, though.

Anonymous

Successful

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. TyftC!

I think I got the rest of my downvotes from theuserwithbunchofdigits.

Anonymous

Ahh.

Anonymous

A certain user targeted me once, but their votes were reversed.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I found a few more downvotes I got from the time I was still posting my answers to learn or just after I learned what I thought an answer.

I think I deserve them.

Anonymous

09:34

I'm relatively happy with all of my downvoted posts.

Anonymous

There are posts that aren't downvoted that I'm less proud of, though.

Damkerng T.

I think I'm gonna keep them for historical reason.

Anonymous

Sounds fair.

Anonymous

0

A: How can I ensure that my pronounciation of [ɛ] and [e] is correct in spoken English?

Like Damkerng T. says, the American English [e] is actually more-or-less a [ei] or [ɛi] diphthong. So, for practice sake, try wedging in an explicit [i] (as in the word "bee") after the [e] and smooshing it into it. That is, try pronouncing "paper" as [pɛi-pɛr] and major as [mɛi-jɛr]. You migh...

Damkerng T.

Oh, my name was mentioned!

Anonymous

09:36

I think he should write [ɚ]

Damkerng T.

excited

nods I think the notation used there was a little messy.

Anonymous

It's not really IPA.

Anonymous

I'm not sure what precisely it is.

Damkerng T.

I think he was trying to suggest adding [i] after [e] when saying [ei] in paper, I think. (I used his notation.)

Anonymous

But I think major is [ˈmeɪ.dʒɚ] and paper is [ˈpeɪ.pɚ]

Damkerng T.

09:40

(Now I got "I think" twice in the same sentence. Probably related to my double "too" in the same sentence.)

Didn't he say (approximately) the same?

Ahh... I see.

[ɛr] and [ɚ] are different.

Anonymous

And [j] and [dʒ] are different

Damkerng T.

Saying "pay-peh-r" might sound funny.

Anonymous

For that matter, [ʒ] is different from [dʒ]

Damkerng T.

nods

Should we do something? Or should I leave another comment?

Admittedly, I didn't catch that CS wrote ə as e the first time I read his answer.

Anonymous

> In IPA: major [ˈmeɪ.dʒɚ] versus measure [ˈme.ʒɚ], paper [ˈpeɪ.pɚ] versus pepper [ˈpe.pɚ]

Anonymous

09:45

Does that seem like a reasonable comment?

Anonymous

That user doesn't seem to like my comments very much, so I'm trying to be selective in what posts of theirs I reply to

Damkerng T.

I think that's fair.

Eh, you didn't post a comment yet. Would you like me to post that for you?

Anonymous

I can do it

Anonymous

I was just trying to check to see if I made any mistakes

Damkerng T.

Okay. That's fine.

Wait

Oh, nothing. I was confused by too many different dictionaries.

They use different notations, so it's a bit confusing sometimes.

Anonymous

09:48

I think maybe I should write d͡ʒ instead of plain dʒ

Damkerng T.

That curve is not absolutely necessary, I think.

Anonymous

I think you're right.

Anonymous

In IPA: major [ˈmeɪ.dʒɚ] versus measure [ˈme.ʒɚ], paper [ˈpeɪ.pɚ] versus pepper [ˈpe.pɚ] — snailplane 6 secs ago

Anonymous

By the way, I like the name "schwar" for the r-colored schwa.

Anonymous

It just sounds so funny!

Damkerng T.

09:52

Hah!

I tried pronouncing it as schwa-errr. It's funny!

It somehow makes sense. :D

Anonymous

In fact, I've already gotten two downvotes on Reddit. (I signed up today.)

Damkerng T.

You signed up today and got two downvotes. That's quick!

Anonymous

Yeah! :-)

Damkerng T.

I've never participated in Reddit.

But I read things on Reddit sometimes.

Anonymous

It generally has very low quality content.

Anonymous

09:59

From what I've seen.

Anonymous

Here is my illustrious profile: reddit.com/user/snailplane

Damkerng T.

Some people there have very strong opinions.

Wow, 6 posts in just a day!

I think people can vote brutally on Reddit.

Anonymous

Well, they're all short.

Anonymous

None of them took research effort.

Damkerng T.

I think the format of Reddit encourages people to answer without having to research anything.

Then someone else might come and challenge.

And, then the research might begin.

That's how I see Reddit.

It's kinda like a poker table, so people are sort of chatting and bluffing at the same time, but it can be fun to read.

I didn't know that Reddit also has LearnJapanese.

Anonymous

10:07

Yeah. It's a place where anyone can ask anything, and only a minority of questions end up being about the Japanese language, I think

Nico

10:43

@snailboat What about "make do"?

Anonymous

@Nico It's true, there are a few fossilized forms with two verbs in sequence.

Anonymous

Specifically with verbs like make that took bare infinitives as complements but appeared without objects

Anonymous

Make do with, have done with, put paid to

Anonymous

Do you think take root is of that sort?

Anonymous

The OED considers root a noun in take root, but without an article

Anonymous

10:48

One reason to consider this is that it appeared in other constructions without an article, and not as a bare infinitive only with those verbs that take one

Anonymous

e.g. strike root

Anonymous

Another way the fossilized verb + verb idioms differ from take root is that the latter can have intervening elements

Anonymous

Another way it differs is that root can be modified by an adjective: take deep root

Nico

"root" in "take root" could be a noun. I'm not conviced is verb. I'm still trying to think a way to decide.

Anonymous

I think the argument from modification (it is modified by an adjective, not an adverb) might be the best evidence pointing to noun rather than verb

Nico

10:50

@snailboat OK, that convinced me.

Damkerng T.

As an aside, I think it's a little strange that we say take root but put down roots.

Anonymous

I think root used to have that usage, lost it, and it's preserved only in a few idiomatic phrases.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps establishing oneself somewhere needs the act of putting down many roots. :-)

Nico

I've removed my answer and added a comment instead.

Anonymous

> PS: Answers like "it is an idiom" will not satisfy me. Why should take root sound better that take roots?

Anonymous

10:54

I don't feel this is a reasonable postscript.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I haven't noticed that PS.

Nico

@snailboat It sounds rude, but it might be unintended.

Damkerng T.

The biggest factor that can slow most learners down is asking for the "why".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think take root is a lexical phrase, and asking why it is the way it is is a question of etymology.

Anonymous

It's not produced synchronically from take and root because root no longer has that usage, generally speaking.

Anonymous

10:57

It's in the lexicon. It's still two words, so we can insert modifiers, conjugate the first one, and so on. But it's in our mental dictionaries pre-composed.

Damkerng T.

For me, it's fine just saying that's the way we say it. (Most of the cases, I think.)

Anonymous

That's what's mostly relevant to learners.

Anonymous

There's no reason learners can't take an interest in etymology and in diachronic language study generally.

Anonymous

And it can be informative to do so.

Anonymous

But I don't think it really helps you speak to know how the phrase came about.

Anonymous

11:00

After all, native speakers don't know how it came about either, unless they were taught or read about it somewhere.

Nico

> Regarding your PS. Would you edit it and explain what kind of answer you're seeking? Perhaps, other idioms showing the pattern "VERB + SINGULAR_COUNTABLE_NOUN"? – Nico 56 secs ago edit

Damkerng T.

If it helps, then it's good; but I think it's usually not very helpful (for the learners).

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, learning about etymology definitely helps.

Anonymous

But, well

Damkerng T.

@Nico That's fair, I'd say.

Anonymous

11:01

It's really very secondary.

Anonymous

You don't learn a language by studying how it came about.

Nico

It helps you identify patterns

Damkerng T.

nods -- I just mentioned yesterday or the day before that I haven't noticed that bartender was from bar + tender and tender = someone who tends.

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

Yep! They tend bar.

Anonymous

11:02

(What's this? Bar with no article!?)

Damkerng T.

Bar is countless?!

Anonymous

You can tend bar.

Anonymous

education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/tend_2

Anonymous

> To manage the activities and transactions of; run: tend bar; tend a store in the owner's absence.

Damkerng T.

So I think knowing that bartender = bar + tender could add some depth to the understanding, but it's unnecessary.

@snailboat It's strange that that link returns an empty page to me.

Oh, but tend bar is indeed another idiom. (I just looked it up.)

@Nico: Read my last paragraph. Yes, knowing other idioms would help. But some insights into the machinery of grammar would be the best. — Graduate 2 mins ago

Oh-oh!

I think I can't explain things like go bananas. (Why they went bananas, not banana?)

Anonymous

11:09

@DamkerngT. It does fit a pattern.

Anonymous

Went bonkers, went bananas

Damkerng T.

Went nuts, too, I think.

Anonymous

Yeah!

Anonymous

You can go all sorts of plural food.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

11:10

Well, I don't know what a bonker is.

Damkerng T.

Me either! But it does sound bonk!

Gotta go out for a while. BBL

Nico

Is there an easy way to link to a figure in google's ngram viewer?

Anonymous

I don't know

Nico

ok, I'll use imgur. I should make bookmarlet for this.

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