English Language Learners

Anonymous

04:53

I took a little vacation over in ELU territory, but I came back over here.

Cerberus

Welcome Back, we've missed you!!

But it's bedtime for me, adieu!

Anonymous

06:00

Damkerng T.

06:45

I waited for a picture to load for maybe half a minute before I knew that the picture is that spinning icon itself. lol

skullpatrol

lol

Nico

11:56

I'm searching the transcripts, but I can't get any results:

chat.stackexchange.com/…

What am I doing wrong?

Damkerng T.

Are you sure you had said that word?

(The search engine of the chat room is not super smart, by the way.)

Nico

we were discussing how to phrase a sentence in one of the papers I'm writing

the phrase contained "critical enhancement"

Damkerng T.

We can try scanning the transcript if you can remember the date.

Nico

If I remove the use, I get two results from Cerberus and I've already found one result where you used the wrod critical.

@DamkerngT. Don't waste your time, I'm already doing that.

Damkerng T.

Me? I see.

Nico

12:04

something about the Thai kings being critical in the history of Thailand

Damkerng T.

I remember I discussed our history a bit with Jolene. Not sure about the date, though.

By the way, how were your days in Spain? Did you have a good time?

Nico

I did (I really really didn't want to come back to the UK, but we have to work to keep paying our bills, don't we?).

I'm going for lunch now. I'll be back in a while.

Damkerng T.

Have a nice lunch! See you later.

Nico

12:20

My lunch mate is here yet, so I have a bit more time:

Apr 8 at 9:20, by Nico

I have a question, but I'm a bit hesitant to ask it on ELL because it comes from a paper I'm writing with other people

found it

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

Obviously, the search engine missed it.

Anonymous

16:31

I should probably not express surprise at that in public :-)

Anonymous

Not Nice enough.

Damkerng T.

It's strange that we have only 6,745 questions.

Anonymous

Why is that strange?

Damkerng T.

I just learned that we can do this: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/NNNNN

Anonymous

Well, yes.

Anonymous

16:38

Actually, the only significant part of /questions/ is /q/

Damkerng T.

And the last question is at least at 22538.

Oh!

Anonymous

You can also write /a/

Damkerng T.

I wonder where the rest were gone.

Anonymous

Both use the same indices (post IDs).

Damkerng T.

Ahh.... I see.

Anonymous

16:39

So for example

Anonymous

If you were to type /q/1234/, it would redirect you to the answer 1234

Nico

Is it really "manyfold"? I thought the spellign was manifold.

Anonymous

Those are two different words.

Nico

wordwebonline.com/en/MANYFOLD

Damkerng T.

Never heard that one before!

Nico

16:40

manifold ~ verb rare
1. make multiple copies of
multiply a letter
2. combine or increase by multiplication
He managed to multiply his profits

manifold ~ adj very rare
1. many and varied; having many features or forms
manifold reasons; our manifold failings; manifold intelligence; the multiplex opportunities in high technology

Anonymous

The number of snails have increased manyfold over the past weeks. A connected topological manifold is locally homeomorphic to Euclidean n-space.

Anonymous

Also, don't use Word Web Online.

Anonymous

That site has lots of errors.

Damkerng T.

I would just stick with "many folds" or "several folds".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can't substitute many folds for manyfold

Damkerng T.

16:41

Maybe if I've seen manyfold enough times, it may not look weird anymore.

Nico

@snailboat That's why I wasn't sure it was correct.

Damkerng T.

Oh?

Anonymous

Here's a definition for manifold which includes the non-technical sense outside Word Web: oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/…

Anonymous

> the implications of this decision were manifold

Anonymous

> I caught the newsreader saying, ‘We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness’.

Anonymous

16:43

But manyfold is a combination of many and the -fold suffix

Anonymous

As in "a twofold increase"

Damkerng T.

No hyphen needed?

Anonymous

No hyphen. I just used one out of habit to indicate that the suffix doesn't stand as a word on its own.

Anonymous

I suppose some spelling interchange between manyfold and manifold would not surprise me

Anonymous

Since manifold comes from manyfold

Anonymous

16:45

But I think they're distinct words now

Damkerng T.

nods

Nico

Apparently the third stomach of a cow is the manyfold!

Anonymous

Omasum?

Nico

books.google.com/…

Anonymous

That book is very old.

Anonymous

16:46

I think the current name is the omasum.

Damkerng T.

Oh, so it folds a lot, the book says.

Anonymous

Omasum

The omasum, also known as the bible, the fardel, the manyplies and the psalterium, is the third compartment of the stomach in ruminants. Though its functions have not been well-studied, it appears to primarily aid in the absorption of water, magnesium, and the volatile fatty acids produced by rumen fermentation, that have not been absorbed into the bloodstream yet. The numerous folds of its mucosa are thought to trap digesta particles so the maximum amount of nutrients may be absorbed. There is some evidence that the contractions of the omasum can propel large particles backwards t...

Nico

manyfold isn't used very often, according to google:

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

Not really. Probably very few of those times in reference to cows. :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Nico

16:48

I guess that only in the 20th century we find it with the current meaning

Anonymous

Manifold is a more common word.

Damkerng T.

Oh, in English cows go Moo, moo. In Thai, they go More, more. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But you can say manyfold or severalfold. Just not many folds or several folds.

Anonymous

> It increased severalfold / *several folds.

Anonymous

@Nico Hmm?

Anonymous

16:50

-fold is rather old, actually.

Damkerng T.

Eh, It increased several folds. is not correct?

Anonymous

Right, that is strange.

Anonymous

etymonline.com/…

Damkerng T.

What about increased two folds?

Anonymous

-fold is a very old suffix meaning "times"

Nico

16:50

I'm looking for uses in the 19th century. There are many Manyfold (I guess a name).

Anonymous

Fold is a different word from the suffix -fold. They are not interchangeable.

Anonymous

-Fold was and is productive. Certain combinations are rarer than others

Damkerng T.

So we need to say, "In 40 years, the population has increased fourfold."?

Nico

It looks like "manifold" was spelled "manyfold" in the past:

books.google.com/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

16:54

@Nico Yes, manifold is derived from manyfold

Anonymous

But it's lexicalized and has non-compositional meaning now

Anonymous

So you can't figure out what it means from just looking at many and -fold

Nico

books.google.com/…

Anonymous

@Nico Yay

Nico

"its productive powers have been increased manyfold" (1838)

Damkerng T.

16:57

Strange, but I guess that's the way it is.

Oh, my system is crawling.

Anonymous

@Nico It was often written with a space historically

Anonymous

You might also search for many fold

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's just a different word than the countable fold

Anonymous

It doesn't have a plural form

Damkerng T.

I saw that. I thought they were the same thing.

Nico

16:58

Interesting, so now 'manifold' means 'varied' and "manyfold" means "multiple times"

This ngram is also interesting (increased many fold)

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Damkerng T.

I think it must be either Stephen King or Dean Koontz who introduced the word manifold to me.

Anonymous

@Nico That's a pretty neat graph!

Nico

It shows how trends come and go in a language, doesn't it?

Damkerng T.

Eh, all of "increased two fold", "increased three fold", "increased four fold" exist!

Anonymous

Yes, -fold is productive. (I am surprised to learn that it is still sometimes written with a space or hyphen!)

Damkerng T.

17:01

I'm more used to the hyphenated version.

Anonymous

You could say a hundred and seventy five fold if you liked, I suppose.

Anonymous

Strange. I can only remember seeing it written without a space or hyphen.

Anonymous

I know I've seen it a lot of times.

Anonymous

And apparently people still use manifold as a spelling of manyfold, so perhaps there's more overlap between the two spellings than I thought.

Anonymous

Although there are senses in which the two are clearly distinct, as in the physics sense of manifold (in my experience never manyfold)

Damkerng T.

17:04

That is the main sense of manifold for me.

Anonymous

I feel like the mathematical sense is the most common one for manifold, but my experiences may be biased

Nico

Another neat graph

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Damkerng T.

I changed it to "many-fold", and then "many-fold went higher up than "two fold".

Anonymous

Add increased manifold

Anonymous

That one surprised me!

Damkerng T.

17:17

►

I think she dropped the schwa in I saw the sign.

(I saw th-sign.)

(I just heard it on TV and I thought I misheard it, so I looked it up on YouTube.)

@snailboat It surprises me too!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That doesn't surprise me (but I haven't listened yet)

Anonymous

Anonymous

Note the th' spelling :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh! Th'fish!

Nico

@snailboat service with a smile

goo.gl/RPgFfv

Anonymous

17:27

@Nico Hehe! Oh, I'm sorry, I meant I already had done it myself and thought it was interesting :-)

Nico

onelook.com/?w=manifold&ls=a

I suggest not to look it up on the urban dictionary :S

Damkerng T.

The trend will look more interesting (which can partly explain why I haven't ever seen manyfold before) if we extend the chart to year 2008.

Nico

17:47

@DamkerngT. Just for completeness, here's the link:

goo.gl/yNqRTb

I'm off for a while

Anonymous

18:00

@DamkerngT. But be very careful of trends past 2000. Google's data is quite different after that point.

Anonymous

The Google researchers themselves refer to the 1800-2000 data as the most carefully curated set

Anonymous

And of course it's the default. If you change the range to extend beyond 2000, you'll notice it often varies wildly! Too often, I think, not to question the data

Anonymous

(Reference: Supporting online material for Michel et al.'s Quantitative Analysis of Culture Using Millions of Digitized Books)

Damkerng T.

Oh, thank you for the article!

Anonymous

> As a result, we caution users that results from after 2000 are not generally comparable with results from before 2000 and often reflect changes in corpus
composition. This was an important reason for our choice of the period between 1800 and 2000 as the target period.

Anonymous

18:06

This is an important caveat that I think is not made clear by the UI.

Anonymous

This is why when I use Google's Ngram Viewer, I typically leave the date range at default or restrict it and only rarely expand it

Anonymous

So you can of course look at data past 2000, but it's best if you keep that in mind when you do.

Anonymous

18:28

@Nico Thanks for all the Ngram charts! They were very interesting. I left a comment on Maulik's answer (I didn't know we were discussing a Question until a few moments ago) with something I learned from you today

Anonymous

Manifold is derived from manyfold, and apparently people use the manifold spelling with the original manyfold meaning. (We discovered this today searching online with Google Ngrams in ELL chat with Nico and Damkerng.) In my mind they've always been different words, but apparently the distinction in spelling is not made as rigorously as I expected it would be. — snailplane 11 mins ago

Damkerng T.

I wonder if "increased manifold" is the same kind of mistake as spelling It's as Its.

Anonymous

It seems too common in published writing for me to draw that conclusion.

Anonymous

I'm honestly confused by the crossover between manyfold and manifold.

Anonymous

Unlike it's versus its, the two spellings (in my mind) are associated with different pronunciations

Damkerng T.

18:32

What does OED (or that big dictionary, I still can't remember its full name) say?

Anonymous

I'm not sure which other big dictionary you mean, but I can check the OED

Damkerng T.

The one that defines several hundred definitions for get. :-)

Anonymous

It has separate entries for manyfold and manifold

Anonymous

It does list the manyfold spelling under manifold.

Anonymous

The OED, being a historical dictionary, has big lists of historically attested spellings in many entries.

Anonymous

18:35

> Forms: α. 1 maniᴁ-, moniᴁ-, mæniᴁ-, meniᴁf(e)ald, 1–2 mænifeald, 2 manifald, 2–3 -feald, 2–6 monifald, (4 monyfaulde), 4–5 many-, monyfald(e, (6 many-, mony-, moniefauld). β. 1 meni(ᴁ)fæld, -feld, 3–4 manifeld. γ. (2 monifold, 3 maniuold, maniȝefold), 3–7, 9 manyfold, (4 manye-), 4–6 manyfolde (5 maniefoold, mony-, manye-, 6 manniefolde), 6–7 manifolde, (7 manyfould), 3– manifold.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, that didn't copy+paste the special characters correctly.

Anonymous

I'm not sure why not.

Damkerng T.

Looks like both manifold and manyfold are in there.

Anonymous

Yep.

Anonymous

But it has a separate entry for manyfold.

Anonymous

18:37

It seems like that separate entry is secondary.

Anonymous

The citations in the manifold entry go much further back, to circa 1000 AD.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just found something interesting. (Not very related to manifold, but I paste it here first before I might lose the link.)

We have Doctor Too Long Didn't Read. toolongdr.appspot.com/submit

Anonymous

I think I will delete my comment until I've learned more.

Anonymous

The history may be more complicated than I think it is.

Anonymous

Clearly it's from many and -fold, but...

Anonymous

18:39

Oh, to me tl;dr always expands to "too long; didn't read"

Damkerng T.

Oh! It's in the past tense!

Anonymous

It started as a response to "textwalls" (a slang term for people posting a huge amount of long, impenetrable text in forums)

Anonymous

I believe.

Anonymous

So, "That was too long. I didn't read it. tl;dr"

Anonymous

But now it's taken on a less literal meaning.

Anonymous

18:41

The "tl;dr version" of something is greatly shortened (possibly for humorous effect)

Anonymous

For example...

Anonymous

tldrwikipedia.tumblr.com

Anonymous

This is a humor site using the extended meaning

Anonymous

It seems that you're already familiar with that meaning, of course--I'm just explaining the progression as I see it, and why it's still "didn't" in my mind even though it doesn't seem to literally mean that

Damkerng T.

I understood it as "Too long? Don't wanna read? Here is the summary: ..."

Anonymous

18:43

@DamkerngT. That's a delightful reanalysis

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

By the way, I can guarantee at least some of the jokes on the site I linked to are not particularly tasteful

Anonymous

I only linked to it for demonstration purposes :-)

Damkerng T.

I think toolongdr.appspot.com yields more useful results. :D

> In Japanese, haiku are traditionally printed in a single vertical line while haiku in English often appear in three lines to parallel the three phrases of Japanese haiku.

The best-known Japanese haiku is Bashō 's "old pond": This separates into as: Translated: An alternate translation, which preserves the syllable counts in English at the cost of taking greater liberty with the sense: Another haiku by Bashō: This separates into as: Translated: This haiku by Bashō illustrates that he was not always constrained to a 5-7-5 pattern.

Anonymous

A-ha!

Damkerng T.

18:47

It's the summary of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku.

Oh, it seems like it cannot cope with all the pages on the web.

I tried pasting a link of our question there and it didn't work.

Interesting...

I tried this link: english.stackexchange.com/questions/166404/…

And here is the summary:

> The terms critic , criticize , criticism have always had a double sense in English.

:D

Anonymous

19:04

Oh, nice.

Damkerng T.

I just found another set of grammar books I didn't know I have.

Anonymous

Oh?

Damkerng T.

I have English Grammar In Use in my bookshelf (this bookshelf makes me think of in rather than on).

Anonymous

I always find it a bit disquieting when I discover I have books I don't remember purchasing.

Damkerng T.

All three levels.

I didn't buy them myself.

Maybe my brother.

Anonymous

19:08

I think I would say on personally even if it's, well, in :-)

Anonymous

But I don't think I can rule out in.

Damkerng T.

It's more like a half-bookshelf-half-cupboard.

Anonymous

Maybe I would change my mind if I saw it.

Damkerng T.

So basically, I don't see the books inside it, until I opened it. :-)

All of them seem to be of the second edition.

Anonymous

English Grammar In Use is a book (series of books, I suppose?) that I don't have

Anonymous

19:11

I've heard of it though

Damkerng T.

I think some learners mentioned it on ELL often enough.

Anonymous

Amazon calls it the world's best-selling grammar title.

Damkerng T.

I think I have a complete set because I have three of them (Essential, Intermediate, and Advanced).

Wow!

Probably true.

Anonymous

He appears to have a bunch of books

Damkerng T.

See, even I have them, without knowing that I have them. :-)

Anonymous

19:13

Including one on phrasal verbs!

Anonymous

Hah

Damkerng T.

I found only these three, though I've heard about other books on a larger set of this In Use series.

Anonymous

19:34

Do they look any good?

Damkerng T.

Somehow they reminds me of PEU.

But more like exercise-wise.

I haven't really looked into them yet, though.

Anonymous

If you look up (say) conditionals, does it seem accurate?

Damkerng T.

Let's see...

Anonymous

What I've discovered in Japanese grammar books is that they tend to have overlapping coverage, but I end up finding things described only in this book or that book

Damkerng T.

At intermediate level, there are four units for conditionals.

> If I do... and If I did...
If I knew... I wish I knew...
If I had known... I wish I had known...
Would -- I wish... would

It doesn't mention anything about I, II, or III.

Anonymous

19:37

Ahh, so they're teaching patterns, but not trying to give a comprehensive description

Anonymous

That seems fair. Patterns are important.

skullpatrol

If and only if... is my fav :-)

Anonymous

Ahh, good ol' iff!

skullpatrol

There is its twin tthen for "then and only then" :D

Damkerng T.

It's strange that the Advanced level of the series doesn't say anything about conditionals. (Though it mentions if/whether).

@skullpatrol Oh, if-then and if-and-only-if!

Anonymous

19:41

@skullpatrol Oh! Iff you know tthen, tthen you can use it!

skullpatrol

exactly^

Anonymous

English has lots of conditionals.

Anonymous

I haven't really read an adequate description of that sequence-of-tenses thingy.

Anonymous

So when people ask me about it, I'm always like "Iunno."　←　This is how I talk informally.

Damkerng T.

Neat!

Anonymous

19:43

"Pass me the salt, if you could?"

Anonymous

That's probably the negative first conditional.

Damkerng T.

It was explained in the unit 38: If I knew... I wish I knew...

> Note that could sometimes means 'would be able to' and sometimes 'was/were able to'

The book doesn't say when that sometimes would be, though.

Anonymous

Ahh!

Anonymous

I hate it when people ask follow-up questions in comments and I don't know the answer :-)

Damkerng T.

> You could get a job more easily (you could get = you would be able to get)

Anonymous

19:47

How about "Pass me the salt, if you would?"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, what was the question?

Anonymous

How about sources other than English? Where in the German "rucksack" do we hear a "ryu" that leads to "ryukusaku"? — Kaz 2 mins ago

Anonymous

6

A: The process behind キャ in loanwords from English

In more linguisticky terms, you might say that velar stops before /æ/ are sometimes palatalized in loans from English. Why? We can find our answer in Adaptation and Transmission in Japanese Loanword Phonology, Clifford James Crawford's doctoral dissertation, in section 2.3.3 "Palatalization of ...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It says "We do not normally use would in the if-part of the sentence"

@snailboat That sounds like a good "another" question.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I do usually encourage people to post follow-up questions as separate questions instead of comments, though Kaz has been around for a while so he can probably decide for himself what he wants to do

Anonymous

20:01

@DamkerngT. Oh! I hope you aren't telling me that my "if you would?" is wrong

Damkerng T.

No, I just acted like a book bot.

Anonymous

I don't think I know enough about German phonology to meaningfully respond to Kaz's comment.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! Thank you!

Anonymous

I think people use "if you would" as an adjunct making a request polite

Damkerng T.

So, according to the book, there is no explanation.

Anonymous

20:02

"Hand me the rope, if you would."

Anonymous

That sort of thing.

Damkerng T.

Maybe I'm still not familiar with the books much enough.

Anonymous

I think that would typically be "familiar enough with the books"

Anonymous

Less commonly "familiar with the books enough" maybe?

Anonymous

Do you find that my corrections on ELL chat are helpful?

Damkerng T.

20:04

The second one was what I thought at first. I don't know why I added "much".

Anonymous

I only want to make them if they're helpful :-)

Anonymous

Ahh

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Very helpful!

Perhaps I tried to make it sound less assertive, I think.

Anonymous

I would like to say that you should keep in mind, although I'm a native speaker, I may not always be familiar with the complete range of English usage out there, and my instincts may sometimes be at odds with what is possible English.

Anonymous

So although I'm doing my best, (as I'm sure you're aware) I may not be 100% accurate all the time in my corrections :-)

Damkerng T.

20:06

I think if you feel that my English is off in some way, it usually turns out that it is really off.

Anonymous

I see that sort of thing happen all the time to other speakers. Like when year-on-year was corrected as wrong in an answer the other day.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I have reasonably good intuition about the English language.

Anonymous

I am a native speaker who is a little bit educated and has read a few thousand English books.

Damkerng T.

In case of year-on-year, I knew that on is actually preferred to over.

Anonymous

So that helps

Anonymous

20:07

Oh, is it?

Anonymous

I like the over version too, but I think both are okay.

Damkerng T.

And lots more of things besides those books, I think.

Anonymous

Oh, well, sure.

Anonymous

Watching episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example. That's important.

Damkerng T.

At least, all stock reports (from my trading broker) always use on.

Anonymous

20:08

If I hadn't, I'd probably never say "Splainy?"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A-ha!

Damkerng T.

They have to provide the reports in both Thai and English.

Anonymous

The on version is good, too.

Damkerng T.

Big accounts are more likely to be oversea accounts.

Sometimes I read their English version, because I think it could help my English a little. :-)

Damkerng T.

20:22

I think it's fair to say that some learners can do some tasks better than the average native speaker.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Anonymous

What sort of tasks are we talking about?

Damkerng T.

For example, some learners can be very good at spelling (btw, not me), which is part of writing skills.

Anonymous

It's true. Many native speakers are bad at spelling.

Damkerng T.

I'm wondering if there is any task related to listening that some learners can outperform the average native speaker.

Anonymous

20:23

One of friend of mine is a genius who can't spell at all

Damkerng T.

(Personally, I think it's unlikely.)

Hah!

Anonymous

But he's come up with some important algorithms

Anonymous

And such.

Anonymous

I've had a really funny experience.

Damkerng T.

Is he one of those who have photographic memory?

Anonymous

20:25

More than once I've brought him up as an example of someone with no spelling skills whatsoever who is nonetheless really smart

Anonymous

No one has photographic memory, so no.

Damkerng T.

Eh? I think it's a common phrase.

Anonymous

Yes.

Anonymous

But when you say things like "my friend is bad at spelling", a lot of people assume you're talking about yourself and you're embarrassed to admit it. :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh! I see.

Anonymous

20:26

@DamkerngT. "Photographic memory" is a common phrase. But no one has one.

Anonymous

That's the reasonable conclusion, anyway.

Anonymous

No one's ever demonstrated that they have one scientifically.

Anonymous

A lot of people claim to have one.

Damkerng T.

No one claims they have such kind of memory?

Anonymous

You'd think one of those people would submit to a scientific test and demonstrate to the world that they actually do.

Damkerng T.

20:27

That would be interesting.

Anonymous

But no one can actually demonstrate having one--all they can do is claim to have one.

Anonymous

This could be false. Someone out there could have a photographic memory. But there's no evidence that this is true.

Anonymous

So until someone shows otherwise, I'm going to assume it's false. After all, they've had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate otherwise.

Anonymous

There's, for example, the World Memory Championships.

Anonymous

If someone had a photographic memory, they could enter the contest and win money.

Damkerng T.

20:29

Hmm... That's a good point.

Anonymous

But the winners of the WMC always use standard mnemonist's techniques like the Method of Loci.

Anonymous

Which are, in contrast, well-attested and have been known for thousands of years.

Damkerng T.

(I hadn't known about the contest before, until recently.)

Anonymous

But photographic memory is a standard trope in fiction. You'll see characters on TV with photographic memories all the time.

Anonymous

It makes for some great plot devices, like flipping through a book looking at one page per second, then burning the book and having the only copy in the character's memory

Damkerng T.

20:32

I think it goes along the same line with those psychic people in fiction.

Anonymous

Oh, sure.

Anonymous

But there are certain tropes that people in real life accept.

Anonymous

Most people believe psychic phenomena don't exist. A significantly larger portion of people believe that photographic memory does exist. You can play it straight.

Anonymous

It's just one of those things, like "every car that crashes will explode seconds later".

Anonymous

It may not be true in real life, but it's true in TV Land!

Damkerng T.

20:35

It could be fun if it were true!

Anonymous

21:30

ELU chat is fun sometimes, too.

Anonymous

I don't think I always fit in really well there, but I'm a bit of a misfit everywhere :-)

Anonymous

I noticed some people being rude (on ELU itself, not in ELU chat). Only one person, actually, but I shouldn't single them out here.

Anonymous

When people seem like they're getting upset, I don't usually want to keep engaging them.

Anonymous

(I can get emotional myself from time to time, unfortunately, though I try to restrain myself.)

Anonymous

The rudeness makes me want to participate a bit less.

Anonymous

21:44

Lately, it seems like everyone on ELL is fairly civil.

Anonymous

Just about.

Damkerng T.

22:00

@snailboat Yeah, and Yay!

Anonymous

22:43

5

A: We were discussing (whether / if) to leave early (or not)

It's not the verb discuss that makes the second sentence ungrammatical: *We were discussing if to leave early (or not). It is the infinitive (which is, in our case, to leave). According to Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan), 621 whether and if 3 infinitives Whether, but not if, is...

Anonymous

That seems like a good description.

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