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10:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

10:14
0
Q: We discussed whether we should close the shop or not?

A-friendCould someone please help me with these conjunctions? I have encountered with the usage of "whether" and "if" in both formal and colloquial language many times and moreover, I have seen in American English people use "or not" at the end and even sometimes in the middle of the sentences along wit...

What is he asking? (I'm not sure what he is asking.)
But I don't want to be mean by voting to close based on "unclear what you're asking".
I might need to analyze the question a bit.
> Could someone please help me with these conjunctions?
= I need help on the "if/whether" usage.
> I have encountered with the usage of "whether" and "if" in both formal and colloquial language many times and moreover, I have seen in American English people use "or not" at the end and even sometimes in the middle of the sentences along with either "whether" or "if".
= I've seen that in AmE, people use "if/whether ... or not".
+ sometimes "or not" is in the middle of sentence (Whuh?)
> Example sentence: We discussed whether/if we should close the shop or not.
> I think aside form the way they are used, technically we can use "if not" or the second option only with "whether".
? Is "if not" a typo of "or not"?
? (Is he asking/assuming that ...) we can use "or not" only with "whether"?
> Meanwhile I am sure "whether" is more formal than "if" and using "if" in writing sounds a bit silly.
* It would be better if he presents some evidence to support the idea.
> Do you confirm me?
> The problem is that Ihave seen for many times correct written English by famous writers is full of examples of I doubt if... to mean I think it unlikely that...
= I've seen many writers wrote "I doubt if ..." -- He better provide some evidence/examples.
> Then I doubt that "if" is formal or informal?!
* Is this the real question of the question? -- It looks like a question.
* But if this is a question, then the title should be about if, not whether; And it should be asking about the formally of the if usage.
* Probably changing the title to "Can we use 'whether/if' with 'or not'?" + "Is using 'if' formal or informal?" might help.
10:42
I spent time reading and analyzing your question for a while (frankly, I wasn't sure what you were asking). Two things I can conclude are: probably that "if not" is a typo; and the real questions in the question seem to be "Can we use 'whether/if' with 'or not'?" + "Is using 'if' formal or informal?" -- With your English level, I believe that reading starplusplus's answer carefully could solve most of your doubts. — Damkerng T. 4 mins ago
I think that was the best I could help him.
Anonymous
11:34
The question went away
11:44
Ah, he rephrased the question and posted a new one already. I think it might be clearer than the deleted one. (I didn't check it out yet.)
@DamkerngT. hey buddy
i have got a nice question for you
curious
why do we need the word input when we have the phrase put in?
both mean the same thing
and, in the same sense
11:49
Eh? Input is usually used as a noun, isn't it?
and, co-incidentally, same number of letters
@DamkerngT. so?
Give me an example of put in you are thinking of.
input two <-> put in 2
Can you make it a more complete sentence?
Input two in the box <-> Put two in the box
11:51
Ah, I see.
(where box is a textbox ofcourse)
Input is usable only in the UI/IT context, I think.
@DamkerngT. why do we even need it?
just use put in in ui it context
Perhaps because in that context, many people think of the action explicitly as "input", not just "put".
Anonymous
Originally input was a combination of in + put
Anonymous
11:53
But now it has its own meaning
@snailboat I was thinking, if input is valid, i will make getput
Anonymous
It's still related to in + put
Anonymous
But input is a single word
Hah! Getput!
and outget
inget
Anonymous
11:54
Getput inget and outget are not words
If you can convince enough people to use them, they could become real words!
Someone will shout at thieves - Outget of my house
(Like, "blog")
Anonymous
@AwalGarg Unlikely to be understood
@DamkerngT. i order you to use them henceforth
@snailboat why?
11:55
Unable to comply.
go back to mopping... I'm a robomop. :-)
Anonymous
Because outget is not a word and it's not related to out and get by a productive process
Anonymous
You can make up the word if you like.
Argh! My chocolates melted again!
Anonymous
But until it catches on, it may not always be understood.
11:56
What a summer!
@snailboat actually, it is, you have to get up if you are sitting or sleeping, then alternately move your left and right leg in the right direction until you outget of the house
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Oh no!
@snailboat It would, however, have been perfectly transparent to Alfred the Great. Or any modern German.
Perhaps we should revive OE prefix verbs.
Now, I have some work, so I will outget of here. (I am kidding)
Just got a new choco-bar from the fridge. :-)
11:58
@DamkerngT. you don't need that hyphen.
Maybe, but I just have coined my own word! (For my beloved choco-bars!)
nom nom
@snailboat Very sad to lose the whether/if question. I was preparing a marvellously erudite Answer.
Hello @StoneyB!
Hi, DT!
@StoneyB Don't worry. The OP just rephrased the question.
I think this one might be a better one for you to post your marvelously erudite answer!
12:01
@DamkerngT. My happiness is restored! I came over to see if perhaps OP was chatting about it. Now I can resurrect the language I saved ...
I'm looking forward to reading it!
Yay!
@DamkerngT. I'm looking forward to writing it. The alternative is reading another three pages of Declerck on tense in conditionals. Declerck has very obnoxious views about perfect constructions.
searching for Declerck on the web...
Oh! He wrote a whole book for conditionals!
I think this is his book (found it on Google Books): Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis
Wow! It's a great book!
outgetting of here
@AwalGarg Don't forget to inget here soon! See you!
12:09
That's it. And four whole volumes on the English Verb Phrase, which I will have to find time to read before I become wholly senile. And probably another million words or so on related topics (but there's a lot of cut-and-paste involved). A very sharp guy with some very good ideas (and a couple of bad ones).
So far (I'm in Ch 5) the best part of Conditionals is Ch 3... I will now return to my modest dissertation on if and whether.
ta.
See you. Have a nice day, and thank you for mentioning a great book! (I could read only a few excerpt pages on Google Book, though.)
I am ingetting here
0
Q: Does a dot or period (.) get italicized or capitalized?

Awal GargWhen we italicize text with the dot (.) or period symbol, does it actually change the (.). So, is . different from . Can anyone tell which of them is italicized? And same way for capitalization. . different from . Does it matters? P.S. I am not sure if I should ask this here, ...

I can notice the difference in some books!
(Only when a period (or a dot) gets italicized.)
I think we don't capitalize any special characters.
@DamkerngT. for example
I can't say which book from the top of my head.
12:18
@DamkerngT. you don't look at books with a magnifying glass, do you?
But when there is such difference, the normal one will look more circular, and the italicized one will look more elliptical!
No, I don't! :-)
Anonymous
I leave that sort of question to people with better eyes :-)
Anonymous
. and . look the same to me
picking up some books...
Anonymous
There's no capital period, though.
12:19
@snailboat i know, first one is italicized, right?
this is not important imo
@skullpatrol hey, maths guy
@skullpatrol I think I agree. :-)
@DamkerngT. i agree as well
:)
12:21
Missing a period between sentences, is much more important, imo.
@skullpatrol not in chat though...
I found one (an italicized period)! The Handbook of Good English, p.116.
@DamkerngT. how does it look different than a non italicized one?
The book italicized all quoted text, and in one quoted text there are three periods: ". . ." in the sentence.
5 mins ago, by Damkerng T.
But when there is such difference, the normal one will look more circular, and the italicized one will look more elliptical!
12:23
It looks a bit taller (or maybe thinner), and slant.
@skullpatrol parallelogram ical
@DamkerngT. i thought italicising means slanting
I think that is why they look slant. :-)
it can't get taller and thinner at the same time. It is against the rules of fontography
12:25
I used my eyes, so I felt it being either taller or thinner.
Come to think of it, I think it should be thinner.
@DamkerngT. why, we are merely tilting it, not squeazing it
Don't know. You have to ask typographers, I think. :-)
@DamkerngT. you mean fontographers..?
maybe the LaTex people
Maybe, I don't really know any of them. :-)
@skullpatrol That too!
12:27
typographers use fonts to make cool looking things, specially videos
@skullpatrol i posted that in latex room
(may be)
good job
i just hope they don't suspend me until night for posting things everywhere (where they are mods)
outgetting again for a while...
Anonymous
12:42
@AwalGarg Well, maybe you shouldn't post your question to a zillion different chat rooms at the same time
Anonymous
If your intuition tells you you're doing something that you might get suspended for, maybe you shouldn't do it
Anonymous
(I'm not going to suspend you for doing it, though.)
12:59
@snailboat What is the longest suspension a single moderator can give?
Anonymous
13:10
@skullpatrol I'm not sure. I don't do much chat moderating.
Anonymous
People in the Japanese and ELL chat rooms rarely do anything that requires it
Anonymous
And I usually don't take action based on things that happen in other chat rooms because they can have their own culture / rules, and I don't necessarily know what's appropriate there
I think there is a "automatic" suspension for certain phrases.
Anonymous
The only time I've ever suspended anyone was because they were using a separate account to get around a suspension
someone got a 7 year suspension for that
Anonymous
13:13
I put in one week, but then I removed the suspension once their other one ran out
Anonymous
I guess it was only a few days
one prof from mit got a full year suspension :(
Anonymous
I'm not familiar with what goes on in the math chat rooms
he came into the chat room looking for sympathy
it was sad
A full year?!
13:17
yep
I wonder what he had done!
the other mods ganged up on him
they had "inappropriate" comments made on some questions
Oh, comments.
Anonymous
Ahh! A moth surprised me just now
there are a lot of big egos involved
13:21
@snailboat I hope that it didn't kidnap any of your snails!
@skullpatrol Too big an ego can be harmful.
I can prove that in 3 steps

Oh yay, I can do it in 2!
While most students really need 10 detailed steps :(
Anonymous
Hard to spell words, part one: hemorrhage
2
starred :-)
@DamkerngT. Do you know how to "pin" comments?
In a chat room?
13:27
yep
I know that there is an option for that, but I've never used it.
Oh, I can even pin my own messages!
try it on hard to spell words
part one
Hey, it works!
Bingo!
Hip hip hooray
Hooray! -- run around gladly :-)
13:29
:D
Hi @IceGirl
@skullpatrol Hi
Bye @IceGirl
just kidding
yeah
@skullpatrol Nice to see you
13:31
@IceGirl nice to see you to, how are you?
@skullpatrol I'm fine. Thanks. You?
@IceGirl Fine thanks.
@skullpatrol What's up?
13:34
@IceGirl Not much, how about you?
@skullpatrol Nothing special but I find a new friend
yes very good
:D
I'm feeling down these days.
13:38
why?
Because.........
Ooookaay, that explains it :-)
@skullpatrol It's very hard for me to explain it.If you were here next to me I can explain it for you
I know, I'm just kidding...
But I'm not kidding :(
I"M FEELING DOWN
;(
13:43
Well, there really is only so much one can do on the internet.
Ups and downs are apart of life.
@skullpatrol Where are you come from?
Please
tell me
I really like to know it
why is that important?
because
tell me don't scarce
I don't want to kill you
:)
Thank you
13:47
np
Do you like Iran?
I've never been there.
why?
Anonymous
1 message moved to Trashcan
@snailboat thanks :-)
13:51
what happened?
nothing
@skullpatrol I hope to see you again. bye
@IceGirl bye pal
Anonymous
Oh, is spelling that exciting? :-)
I never liked spelling in school
Too much memory work.
Anonymous
14:01
Ah, I usually just know how to spell things
I like stars, so I starred it.
Anonymous
I've never really put much effort into it
Anonymous
But a few words here or there I've had to resort to mnemonic tricks for
Anonymous
For example, onomatopoeia
Why are they called spelling "bees" and not "contests"?
Anonymous
14:02
I came up with a pronunciation in my head that matches the spelling :-) And I remember that funny pronunciation, and the spelling comes out naturally
Anonymous
Ah, a bee is like
Anonymous
> [with modifier] A meeting for communal work or amusement: a quilting bee
@snailboat Oh, I used that in my L1 sometimes, too!
Anonymous
At the time, I think bee was more productive in this sense than it is now (it readily combined with other words to form phrases with this meaning)
Anonymous
14:03
But now bee is mostly known only in spelling bee
Anonymous
I think it's still minorly productive (maybe only in some areas?)
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. It could work for hemorrhage, too!
Anonymous
Also, learning haima and rhage might not help for the hemor part, but it would be helpful for the rhage part :-)
Anonymous
(It helps you figure out where that pesky H goes!)
Anonymous
You probably know other words with that haima "blood" root, like hemoglobin, though
14:04
nods
Anonymous
In my case, hemochromatosis
Anonymous
(A condition I have)
Actually, I know the word hemorrhage.
Anonymous
Oh, I'm sure
(But not hemochromatosis)
Anonymous
14:05
It's relatively common, and you know a lot of words!
Anonymous
Hemochromatosis I learned when I found out I had it. It's a genetic thing, generally less serious for women than men
Anonymous
All of these hemo s (I can't italic only part of a word, so I put in a space!) have, I think, haemo as an alternate spelling
The order of word learning for L2 learners could surprise you. We usually don't know many simple/short words.
Anonymous
Haemorrhage, haemochromatosis, haemoglobin, haemostasis
Eh, can we do that?
(Spelling hemoglobin as haemoglobin?)
Anonymous
14:08
Yes.
Anonymous
I'm not sure, but I think the ae might be more common in BrE spelling.
Anonymous
You could perhaps find out with GloWbE or such
Anonymous
We have some ae in our AmE spellings, though, like archaeopteryx, I think
Anonymous
I can't think of any more h(a)emo words than those four off the top of my head.
Anonymous
Word list says: hemophilia!
Anonymous
14:11
And hemorrhoid
Oh, hemorrhoid!
Anonymous
Yeah, I should have thought of those two.
Anonymous
But generally speaking, it's difficult to recall members of an unordered set.
Anonymous
It's much easier to memorize overlapping subsets of a larger order (ABC, BCD, CDE, DEF, EFG) and then assemble them into a complete list
14:12
In this respect, some L2 learners can perform better.
Anonymous
But we don't do this in learning vocabulary, so we generally can't recite lists of words.
Anonymous
We learn vocabulary basically at random.
Anonymous
At least, I do.
Anonymous
I never memorized any vocabulary lists in Japanese.
or according to a "as needed" learning plan
Anonymous
14:14
Yes, that's sort of what I meant. (It's not truly random, in the technical sense of the word)
I never memorized those English word lists.
Anonymous
Does anyone?
Anonymous
It seems like an iffy way to learn.
Oh, I think it must be a popular way to learn, considering those word lists on the web.
Anonymous
Oh, you're probably right
Anonymous
14:15
Well, maybe it works for those people.
I'm not sure if it really works for those people. :-)
Anonymous
I just learn words as I come across them, though. Like skullpatrol says, 'as needed'
Me too.
Me three.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Memorizing a big list of words could set you up to, um, actually learn them later. You know, give you a mental coatrack to hang meanings on?
14:16
Heehee.
Anonymous
I'm not sure.
That's what I wonder too.
Anonymous
I learned some words out of context as part of learning the Japanese writing system.
You need a "structure" to hang the new words on.
Anonymous
For example, when I learned the kanji 塞, I learned 心筋梗塞 (sinkin-kōsoku)
Anonymous
14:17
Myocardial infarction. Heart attack.
@skullpatrol I agree.
Anonymous
But then I only ever heard anyone say 心臓麻痺 (sinzō-mahi) for "heart attack".
@snailboat Perhaps we all learn a few words that way.
@DamkerngT. In math we hang "methods" on our structures.
Anonymous
If I only knew the word from the list, then I might try say sinkin-kōsoku when people expect to hear the more common sinzō-mahi
14:19
Talking about math, I never remember those formulas.
Anonymous
But learning from context, I know that the common word is the latter. Or at least, I think I know that. :-)
Anonymous
I think the most important thing in math is understanding
@snailboat Oh! Perhaps, it's all about the contexts we're familiar with.
Anonymous
Being able to mechanically follow steps you've memorized is helpful but secondary
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Sure. Maybe the other term would be appropriate in medical contexts, like English myocardial infarction
Anonymous
14:21
Although to be honest, I can't recall ever having used that term in English.
@snailboat Agree. The reason that I can still solve math problems is exactly because I never cared to remember those formulas.
Yes, understanding is the most important thing.
Anonymous
I mean, the only time I've used the phrase is in explaining what an infarction is.
Anonymous
But I'm not a doctor.
Heehee.
I think doctors would be more familiar with words like those.
Anonymous
14:22
When I was little, I was really interested in medical books and terminology, so I think my parents got excited and assumed I'd become a doctor
Anonymous
But nope! Sorry, parents! ;-)
My grandma and my aunt tried to push me to be a doctor.
Anonymous
Sometimes I feel like that's every parent's dream. Every child should become a doctor!
Anonymous
A whole planet of doctors!
But we do build understanding on what we remember, right guys?
14:23
Maybe I told you once that I intentionally ignored biology when I did my entrance exam.
Anonymous
@skullpatrol Yes, knowledge has value
Anonymous
There's a reason I memorize so much information.
@skullpatrol Exactly!
It also works both ways. We can remember what we understand.
Anonymous
And I assume the same goes for anyone in a technical field where having knowledge internalized is helpful.
Anonymous
But understanding is primary
Anonymous
14:24
It goes for language learning too. Memorization is helpful! But it's secondary.
Math is the language of Physics
Almost every technique out there is helpful and secondary, I believe.
Ah, Physics!
Somehow I've never brought myself to fully understand quantum physics.
I'm too classical!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. I recommend reading Deep Down Things
nice recommendation^
14:26
Bookmarked!
Anonymous
Wonderful book.
We still don't have the GUT yet, I think?
14:39
-2
Q: Would you at this situation explain the difference between object and objective as a noun?

nima_persianWould anybody please explain the difference between these? A government whose object is good for people. A government whose objective is good for people. Is there a difference between these two words when they are used as a noun? ...... And, these Descriptions belong to Dictionary L...

Sometimes I feel sympathy for nima.
Though I'm not very fond of nima's questions, I've never downvoted them.
Anonymous
I have. Sorry :-)
It's okay; I think I understand. :-)
If I remember correctly, I think nima asked about object/objective once.
I think I posted a comment on that question too.
Anonymous
You post comments on questions
Oh! And under an answer?
I think I agree that "object" and "objective" are both good. However, I somehow feel that "The government whose object is the good of people" sounds better. Perhaps it's because "object" sounds a bit more poetic and archaic, and "the good of people" is abstract enough. — Damkerng T. Mar 28 at 13:20
Anonymous
Um, I think I'd just say on personally
14:44
Found it! TYftC!
Anonymous
I didn't downvote that particular question, by the way.
I think "object" and "objective" work a little differently.
Anonymous
Me too. But I'm not prepared to explain the difference.
But in the context of a government, I (still) think they both can be used.
I think of "object" (in this sense) is more like a goal.
And "objectives" are those issues that are needed to be done to reach the goal.
But again, in some contexts, we use "objectives" to mean "goals" (usually measurable).
14:57
ingetting
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