English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

08:00

:-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Knowing what to use and when to use it

Damkerng T.

Ah, that sounds nice, too!

Anonymous

I think it's often permissible in English to put together two in-situ wh-phrases with a coordinator like and

Anonymous

I was talking to some friends about multiple-wh phrases a few months ago, and I found that we all had wildly different judgments about what was grammatical

Damkerng T.

curious

Anonymous

08:04

> Ōki-nara, musi-ga doko-ni, dare-to nani-o hanasiteiru-no-ka-sura wakaru.
> "The princess knows even where the bugs say what to whom."

Damkerng T.

That makes perfect sense!

Anonymous

I wrote the Japanese sentence down last month

Anonymous

That translation I just wrote (off the top of my head) is iffy at best :-)

Anonymous

I should remove the whether. I put that in because of the -no, but I think that's misplaced.

Anonymous

There, how's that sentence look? "...where the bugs say what to whom"

Damkerng T.

08:07

Are the word orders in the two languages different?

Anonymous

That looks more comprehensible, right?

Anonymous

Would you like a gloss?

Damkerng T.

nods

(I can only guess nani.)

Anonymous

> Ōki-nara, musi-ga doko-ni, dare-to nani-o hanasiteiru-no-ka-sura wakaru.
> princess-IS-CONDITIONAL, bug[s]-NOMINATIVE where-LOCATIVE, who-RECIPROCAL what-ACCUSATIVE talk-PRESENT-CONTINUOUS-NOMINALIZER-QUESTION-EVEN know-PRESENT

Anonymous

I wrote out all the labels instead of abbreviating.

Anonymous

08:09

Normally they would be thing like -LOC for locative

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought you would label the Japanese words.

A-ha! So the word orders are the same!

Anonymous

No.

Anonymous

Look, the verb wakaru (know-PRES) is final.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I'm reading a Japanese gloss.

So it's like: [ princess bugs where who what talk know ]

Anonymous

It's not a translation, it just indicates loosely what each word represents, lexical words in lowercase and grammatical suffixes / postpositions with uppercase indicating their function

Anonymous

08:12

If I strip out the grammatical stuff, the Japanese word order is "princess bugs where who what talk know"

Anonymous

Which looks like what you just said

Anonymous

Except without the grouping you implied

Anonymous

Commas aren't used the same way in Japanese as in English

Damkerng T.

Do they use commas in Japanese?

Or they just put some extra spaces?

Anonymous

Yes, they are called tōten and look like this: 、

Anonymous

08:13

They are not exactly the same as the English comma, but informally it's fine to use the terms interchangeably since they're basically the same thing.

Anonymous

Japanese uses spaces very sparingly in normal writing.

Damkerng T.

It looks strange that they put commas in those positions.

Anonymous

Writing with very few or no kanji often uses wakatigaki "separated writing", meaning spaces (most often between bunsetu "phonological words")

Anonymous

This is most often seen in writing for children, though it occurs in other places where for technological reasons kanji can't be used

Anonymous

Spaces also appear in place of punctuation in a few limited circumstances: song lyrics, subtitles

Anonymous

08:15

I'm not sure why. They just do. Convention, I guess

Anonymous

But in standard writing, you'll come across very few or zero spaces.

Damkerng T.

> [ princess [ bugs [ where [ who [ what talk ] ] ] ] know ]

Very interesting recursion!

It's very simple in Thai.

Anonymous

Oh, I don't think it's really that nested in Japanese

Anonymous

But I think language has n-ary branching

Damkerng T.

> [princess-know-bugs-talk-what-(to)-who-where]

Anonymous

08:18

I don't follow the sorts of syntactic theories where stuff branches two ways

Anonymous

It always seems to make everything a mess for no reason

Anonymous

You end up with like, "VP shells" and other such nonsense

Damkerng T.

Even I tried to bracket those Japanese stand-ins, I can feel that it works very differently from English.

Anonymous

I would say it looks like this:
> Ōki-nara | [ musi-ga doko-ni dare-to nani-o hanasiteiru ]-no-ka-sura wakaru.

Anonymous

[ musi-ga doko-ni dare-to nani-o hanasiteiru ] is a subordinate clause, and -no nominalizes the whole thing, the interrogative -ka binds to the wh-words inside the subordinate clause, and -sura adds the emphatic "even"

Damkerng T.

08:20

Can we spit hanasiteiru-no-ka-sura? (I though it ~ talk.)

Anonymous

Can I explain briefly how verbs work?

Damkerng T.

Sure. Sorry to interrupt.

Anonymous

Japanese verbs in their citation form look like hanasu or iku or wakaru, always with a -u at the end

Anonymous

But the actual root of the verb doesn't have that: hanas-, ik-, and wakar-

Anonymous

Some verbs end on consonants: hanas-, and others end on vowels: tabe-

Anonymous

08:23

To make these verbs finite, you can add the present tense morpheme -(r)u.

Anonymous

If you have a consonant stem verb like hanas- "to talk", you add -u: hanasu

Anonymous

If you have a vowel stem verb like tabe- "to eat", you add -ru: taberu

Anonymous

So the verb itself is hanas-. The -te iru form adds tense and aspect.

Anonymous

You can divide it into hanas-i-te i-ru

Anonymous

So the whole morpheme pile there is hanas-i-te-i-ru-no-ka-sura

Anonymous

08:24

That's a lot of divisions! ;-)

Anonymous

But when you're speaking Japanese, you don't think of that many divisions.

Anonymous

You might think of hanasiteiru as a single verb form which means "be talking"

Damkerng T.

So, this sort of "even" [-no-ka-sura] is associated with the subordinate clause rather than with the "know"?

Anonymous

You obviously don't build it piecemeal while you're talking! :-)

Anonymous

But if you want to think of it that way, the entire verb is hanasiteiru, and the other stuff is separate.

Anonymous

08:26

-no turns the entire subordinate clause into a noun. It's a nominalizer.

Anonymous

-ka is an interrogative particle, like a verbal question mark of sorts.

Anonymous

-sura adds emphasis (and it's literary, which is why my translation used "whom")

Anonymous

-sura is the "even" part.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, like she knows [ even blah ]

Anonymous

But all three of -no, -ka, and -sura are dependent on the things before them.

Anonymous

08:27

That's why I put dashes there.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

They're usually analyzed as free words, though.

Damkerng T.

I learned a bit of Japanese!

Anonymous

Of course, when you actually learn Japanese, you won't be building things from pieces like that.

Anonymous

I recommend learning entire conjugated verbs in phrases

Anonymous

08:29

Doing it the other way around is too painful :-)

Damkerng T.

I think I knew that. :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, I think you know that too

Anonymous

But I have fun taking language apart.

Damkerng T.

(my own experience in the past just flashed back. :-)

Anonymous

I didn't learn how to properly form Japanese verbs until I already knew how to properly form Japanese verbs :-)

Anonymous

08:30

I don't know if I really learned the right way, but eh.

Anonymous

Too late to change it now!

Anonymous

(I was too lazy to go through a textbook, you see.)

Damkerng T.

Never say too late! :-)

Anonymous

Well, I already know now. It would take me a while to forget all of Japanese.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

But... but... you're the master of forgetting!

Anonymous

08:32

It's true, I'm good at forgetting. sob

Anonymous

Honestly, I've forgotten an awful lot of Japanese over the years.

Anonymous

I don't know how many times I've learned the stuff I do remember :-)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

I'm lucky I have a good visual memory. It doesn't take me much effort to learn new kanji.

Anonymous

Studying kanji is really fun for me! I made progress really fast and I've mostly retained what I've learned

Anonymous

08:38

Unfortunately, it doesn't really help with the language itself.

Anonymous

I mean, not knowing how to read makes it a lot harder

Damkerng T.

I thought they should be related.

Anonymous

But knowing how to read kanji really just puts you at a baseline position.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

Anonymous

That is, the way I see it, you're at a big disadvantage if you don't know it, and the process of learning is to remove that disadvantage.

Anonymous

08:39

But it's not actively helpful.

Anonymous

It's not an ideal writing system.

Anonymous

(Oh, but it's so fun! :-)

Damkerng T.

And it could help your Chinese too!

Anonymous

Most anyone can learn to read Japanese if they put in the time, but for a small percentage of people it's really hard to learn.

Anonymous

Those people would be much better off with an all-kana system.

Anonymous

08:41

But we don't have a system like that. Those people have to overcome their difficulties somehow.

Anonymous

Which is really too bad.

Anonymous

I think for most people though, it just takes a time investment, and then it's not a big deal.

Damkerng T.

I think it's like swimming. (I usually relate language learners to sports.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes! The Japanese on'yomi are taken from Chinese, so they correspond fairly well to modern Mandarin readings, and most big kanwa ziten have Mandarin readings listed alongside them

Damkerng T.

The more you spend time in water, the better you can swim!

Anonymous

08:43

But the Chinese readings are more finely distinguished than the on'yomi in Japanese

Anonymous

So it's not enough to learn that go in Japanese is usually wu. You have to learn which tone wu has in each morpheme, even though they're homophones in Japanese.

Anonymous

And you have to learn more hanzi in Chinese than kanji in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes, the tones!

Anonymous

Also, a lot of words look the same in both languages but now have different meanings.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

08:48

(Or so I am told. I don't actually know that particular word.)

Anonymous

Can you read this?

Anonymous

衛生紙

指的是一種极薄极软的紙張，提供人們入廁後清理使用。形狀有單張四方型的，或者捲成滾筒形狀的。通常由木漿製造，跟一般紙的製造過程差不多，但是極薄極脆弱。脆弱使得衛生紙遇水就爛，以免在廁所內造成堵塞。製造目的跟外觀極其類似的面紙大不相同。如果把面紙誤當成衛生紙使用，很容易導致廁所堵塞。一般为白色，也有其他颜色。歷史在紙出現並便宜到可以用來拭穢之前，人們使用過的廁後清理材料包括水、布、葉子、玉米芯、土坷埌(土块)、木竹片（廁籌）。李约瑟指出中國最早的用紙拭穢記載見於6世纪的《顏氏家訓》： 9世纪中叶的阿拉伯商人苏莱曼在唐代广州也有记载：兩千年前蔡倫改良造紙術，改變了書寫的歷史。十九世紀，開始以木漿製紙。二十世紀初，美國史古脫紙業公司買下一大批紙，因紙面產生皺摺而無法使用。面對一倉庫的無用的紙，大家都不知如何是好，在主管會議中，有人建議將紙退回供應商以減少損失，這個建議獲得所有人的附議。該公司負責人亞瑟·史古脫（Arthur Scott）卻不這麼想，他想到在捲紙上打洞，變成容易撕下成一小張一小張的。史古脫將這種紙命名為「桑尼」衛生紙巾，賣給火車站、飯店、學校等放置於廁所中，因為相當好用而大受歡迎，並慢慢普及到一般家庭中，為公司創下了許多利潤。種類 *平板（每包約300張） *抽取（每包約100～130抽） *捲筒（以重量公克，或總長度，或「節」做為規...

Damkerng T.

How could "toilet paper" come from "hand + write"? It was a long way!

Of course not! :-)

Anonymous

Ah!

Damkerng T.

Eh? What kind of paper is that? :-)

Anonymous

08:50

I mixed it up while I was thinking about the kanji!

Anonymous

Let me start over!

Anonymous

Not tegaki, but tegami :-)

Anonymous

Here we go:

Anonymous

nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E6%89%8B%E7%BA%B8/38475

Anonymous

Hand-paper!

Anonymous

08:51

Does that make more sense?

Anonymous

Silly me, making beginner's mistakes.

Anonymous

So 手紙 is hand + paper "letter"

Anonymous

And 手紙 is hand + paper "toilet paper"

Damkerng T.

Ah! "hand + paper" makes sense!

Now I more wonder about how "hand + paper" became "letter"!

Anonymous

The page I linked to said 手紙 and I thought "but I wrote 手書!" :-)

Anonymous

08:54

Originally, tegami was paper for various uses that was kept near at hand, says Nihon Kokugo Daijiten

Anonymous

So its defining quality literally is that it's "paper [at] hand", te being a locative adjunct (suggesting te-moto "in the vicinity of one's hands"), and kami being the head "paper"

Anonymous

So like tegaki it's a modifier-head compound with an adjunct in the modifier position, but the head here is nominal ("paper"), unlike kaki which is deverbal ("writing")

Anonymous

Does that make sense?

Anonymous

Two different meanings for "hand paper" :-)

Damkerng T.

I think it makes sense.

Anonymous

08:57

And so this sort of paper was used to write letters, and it came to mean "letter"

Anonymous

I'm so happy I bought my electronic dictionary so I can look stuff like that up while we're talking :-)

Damkerng T.

It just took a longer way than "hand + paper" --> "toilet paper".

Anonymous

My electronic dictionary makes me really happy.

Anonymous

Tegaki, by the way, means "handwriting", lit. "writing [by] hand"

Damkerng T.

I'm happy for you too. :-)

Anonymous

08:59

Te-de kaku "write by hand" is a verb phrase. You can inflect kaku to kaki "writing", the form which can be used as a noun

Anonymous

So it forms te-gaki "handwriting"

Anonymous

The de disappears, but it's still marked as an adjunct by that /g/.

Anonymous

Compare e-kaki "picture-drawing", from e-o kaku "draw a picture", where e is a direct object (an argument), so /k/ doesn't voice to /g/

Anonymous

(This is a strong tendency but not a strict rule in word formation)

Damkerng T.

I just realized that I'm not sure in which sense of "letter" we were talking about.

Anonymous

09:01

A letter you send to someone. A postal letter.

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks. I guessed right.

Anonymous

Letters used in script are moji

Anonymous

Ji is more generally "character"

Anonymous

As in kanji

Damkerng T.

What about email in Japanese?

Anonymous

09:02

(Or zi in Chinese, as in hanzi)

Anonymous

That's メール meeru

Anonymous

Which is just "mail", but email usually has no "e" in Japanese

Damkerng T.

Oh! Obviously from English.

Anonymous

I should put more time into learning Japanese.

Anonymous

09:40

I don't understand Japanese linguistics.

Anonymous

I've never found an adequate description of -ka, which is one of the most fundamental parts of the language

Anonymous

Isn't that weird?

Anonymous

Admittedly, it's a complex thingy.

Anonymous

(Right now the Japanese room is discussing escargot, so I'm muttering over here :-)

Anonymous

Today my mental picture of ka started to clear up a little.

Anonymous

09:45

To me, the goal of descriptive linguistics is to come up with the simplest set of principles possible--that is, ones which minimize the combination of 1. the length of the explanation, 2. the length of the exceptions to the explanation, and 3. the counterintuitiveness of the explanation

Anonymous

So I don't necessarily care about coming up with a Grand Unified Theory for everything.

Anonymous

Though I want to avoid unnecessary complications

Anonymous

And I think sometimes sacrificing theoretical purity is a good thing if it makes your explanation more accessible

Anonymous

I'm trying to make some decisions about representations right now

Damkerng T.

Escargot?

In the Japanese chat room? :-)

Anonymous

09:57

Hehe, yes.

Anonymous

So I left them to it :-)

Anonymous

Poor little snails!

Damkerng T.

I'm glad you can make it here. :-)

Who knows what they would do to an escargotboat?

Anonymous

Oh no!!

Anonymous

You know, escargot in French is just "snail". It doesn't necessarily mean "snail as food".

Anonymous

10:01

Escargot

Le terme escargot est un nom vernaculaire qui en français désigne par opposition aux limaces, la plupart des mollusques qui portent une coquille, dits aussi colimaçons. Majoritairement terrestres, ce sont tous des gastéropodes quelle que soit leur taille (certains mesurent à peine 2 millimètres) ou leur forme. On désigne aussi par ce terme certains escargots aquatiques, dont ceux d'eaux douces (Basommatophora tels les limnées ou les planorbes, souvent appelés « escargots nettoyeurs » par les amateurs d'aquariophilie). La différence entre escargot et limace n'est pas toujours évidente. ...

Damkerng T.

I guess I knew that, though I'm not sure how much escargot can cover.

Anonymous

Oh! This is a cute snail from French Wikipedia

Anonymous

With a nice strong shell :-)

Damkerng T.

It does look strong!

A buffy snail!

Anonymous

10:02

My poor little Dot isn't growing a really good shell, but she's okay

Anonymous

She should have been fully grown months ago, but she'll get there at her own pace :-)

Damkerng T.

10:35

Ahh... I just realized that dictionaries are just like grammar rules.

Like grammar rules, you shouldn't learn them in order to learn the language, but learning them after you've learned the language is really useful.

I believe that we shouldn't learn words from dictionaries "before" we knew the words (or have seen them used appropriately), but looking them up after we've known them or heard or seen them used in realistic contexts is really useful.

Anonymous

11:42

@DamkerngT. That's how I do language learning, anyway

Anonymous

I've done it the other way around, but I end up feeling lost

Anonymous

But then, that's why I like dictionaries with tons of examples :-)

Damkerng T.

I think deep down we already knew that, we just don't say it out. After writing that my thought became clearer.

@snailboat Me too!

Anonymous

11:55

I don't really want to tell other people how to go about language learning, myself

Anonymous

Mostly because so many other people are obviously better at it than me :-)

Damkerng T.

Really?

I think it's rare.

To be fair, I think we need to consider many factors.

Anonymous

Oh, I have a lot to learn yet.

Damkerng T.

And by definitions, I think almost all native speakers are better than learners in some ways all their lives.

Anonymous

And it's been sixteen years now :-)

Damkerng T.

11:57

Should we count the time we spent learning incorrectly?

Anonymous

Oh, I have no idea about that sort of thing

Anonymous

You have to spend some time learning how to learn, perhaps :-)

Anonymous

You compare language learning to sports. I think of music.

Damkerng T.

I hope that I can spend time learning English more than I am currently doing.

Anonymous

I think of how someone can play guitar for years and years and never get better.

Damkerng T.

11:58

But most of the time, I observe. :-)

So, it's more like I'm looking for ways to learn, rather than learning it myself.

Anonymous

I can tell you there've been countless times that native speakers surprised me by contradicting what one book or another said.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat In a few sports I think I'm good enough (though not that great), I've noticed that.

And I know how to fix problems of those people easily, if only they allowed themselves.

Anonymous

That's one of my motivations for figuring out my own way of explaining grammar-y stuff. As much as has been written, none of it seems to quite describe the way the language is used

Damkerng T.

Isn't it true that we can't trust each particular native speakers about everything?

Anonymous

Well, of course.

Anonymous

12:02

But when you find out about some usage a book doesn't describe, you investigate :-)

Damkerng T.

I know that I could not trust myself for everything about Thai.

Anonymous

And you shouldn't trust everything I say about English.

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. That's possible.

Anonymous

But despite that, I'm a reasonably good source of information

Anonymous

You don't need to disregard everything I say either :-)

Damkerng T.

12:02

I know I trust virtually everything you say about English. :-)

Anonymous

D'oh! :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe. :-)

Anonymous

You know what else?

Anonymous

My habit of using too many smilies has rubbed off on you.

Anonymous

I'm a bad influence.

Damkerng T.

12:03

I'm not sure in which direction it goes. :-)

Jasper Loy

I don't use smilies, lol.

I like to use lol, lol.

Anonymous

No, but you use that charming discourse particle lol!

Damkerng T.

icic

What I was thinking was that not all native speakers think of their language identically.

Anonymous

Yes, everyone's English is different.

Anonymous

Although there tends to be a lot of overlap :-)

Damkerng T.

12:06

Exactly!

But the more we push into it, the more we can see the difference.

Anonymous

In CGEL, sentences that are acceptable to some speakers but not others are marked with a % symbol

Damkerng T.

I know that I don't like what many people wrote in Thai.

(Grammatically, I mean.)

Anonymous

Though I should note that CGEL is a grammar of Standard English

Damkerng T.

Ah, I've never seen that sign used before.

Anonymous

It doesn't document all the variations that appear in all the non-standard varieties of English

Anonymous

12:08

(That would probably be an impossible task!)

Anonymous

I don't know anything about standard and non-standard Thai

Damkerng T.

Maybe Google or Facebook could do that!

Anonymous

Hah

Damkerng T.

I think the boundary of what considered standard Thai is fuzzy.

The grey area is rather wide.

It took me three years before I realized how I should play badminton. :-)

I think it took me almost half a year before I could figure out how to hit the shuttle properly. (I had no teacher.)

Hah!

This is strange.

I just realized that I used sound as the key to figure out how to hit the shuttle in badminton too!

Anonymous

I don't know how that compares to English

Anonymous

12:15

it's arguable what things are considered standard in English, too

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

I was about to say "Poor frog." but I saw the last second of the video first. :-)

He reaped what he sow.

Anonymous

Hehe, well, hopefully the frog got fed after that :-)

Damkerng T.

:-)

Anonymous

12:31

> How long does your class last?

Anonymous

It's not really my preferred way of saying it (it sounds slightly clumsy), but I don't see anything impossible about it

Damkerng T.

Oh, you've seen that.

I think Maulik's answer is incorrect.

I think it depends on the context.

And I don't know exactly what the OP's context is.

Anonymous

I wouldn't say it's "the idiomatic choice"

Anonymous

Or however he put it.

Anonymous

He used the word "idiomatic" at any rate.

Damkerng T.

12:33

In any case, if last works, take should also work, I think.

Anonymous

My intuition says it works better.

Anonymous

Mostly because class last sounds clumsy.

Anonymous

It's like, /klæs læst/

Anonymous

For some reason, my tongue doesn't like /læslæs/

Anonymous

That could just be me.

Damkerng T.

12:35

Talking about idiomatic, I definitely won't say "How long does your class last?"

It sounds a bit funny. I don't know why, though.

Sorting the OP's choices, I think ... maybe I shouldn't bother to sort them.

Anonymous

Oh, well, I like the phrasing in the question title:

Anonymous

> How long is your class?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just noticed that he used it in the title!

I think our UI makes lots of people think that the title is part of a question.

Anonymous

Let's say I've arrived at school to pick someone up because she told me to pick her up at 4. But she says, "Oh, sorry, I've got another class, can you just wait here?" I'm a little put out and feeling impatient, so I say "Well, how long's {that/your class} gonna take?" / "Oh. When's {that/your} class let out, then?" / "Okay, how long do I need to wait, then?"

Anonymous

I'm just trying to imagine scenarios where the phrase would be okay.

Anonymous

12:39

I'm not really coming up with examples for last

Damkerng T.

I think, "Okay, how long do I need to wait, then?" is very idiomatic.

Anonymous

I'm looking through questions.

Anonymous

I'm more familiar with ostensible than ostensive

Anonymous

I too would only use the former

Anonymous

(In the context in that question)

Damkerng T.

12:42

Oh, I skipped that one.

> The ostensive purpose for his departure was catching the train.

The whole sentence sounds odd to me.

Anonymous

I didn't hit 200 reputation, by the way, since I put up those bounties. I ended up in the red! :-)

Damkerng T.

Maybe I lack a good context.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. To my ear, it just sounds like they used the wrong word.

Anonymous

It reminds me of "for all intensive purposes" :-)

Damkerng T.

I never have to worry about the rep limit!

Anonymous

12:44

I don't mean to argue with StoneyB's point that it shouldn't be characterized as a mistake, by the way. I'm just reporting what my intuition says in case it's interesting

Damkerng T.

It was put as something someone says (or said), so it sounds really odd to me.

It might work in a novel, I think.

Anonymous

0

Q: Confused with Present Continuous

I've just started learning English grammar. I have a book with a lot of grammars. There is a unit for present continuous and there is an exercise in which the reader should write sentences based on a picture. Here it is. In the Key To Exercises section of the book it's stated that the answers ...

present-progressive

Anonymous

Erm?

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

This is like in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

12:45

Really?!

I was wondering why the OP thought that way.

Anonymous

Remember our hanasite iru form "is talking"? We could call it a present continuous form of hanasu

Anonymous

Let's call it the -te iru form.

Damkerng T.

So, He is sitting here. She is standing there. are not allowed?

I think I can remember iru now. :-)

Anonymous

Talking has a duration, so in Japanese, hanasite iru means the activity is still ongoing.

Anonymous

So it corresponds to "is talking" (at least in the sentence I gave earlier)

Anonymous

12:48

Whereas sinu "to die" has no duration. So if you make sinde iru, you might naively translate it to "is dying", but it actually means "is dead"

Damkerng T.

(Actually, it's also a bit strange to say "She is sitting." in Thai.)

Anonymous

Because with verbs without duration, the -te iru form means "the action has taken place [in a single moment of time], and the subject is still in the resulting state"

Anonymous

Likewise for Japanese.

Damkerng T.

I remember that from the "is dead" vs. "is dying" question.

Anonymous

Suwaru "to sit" is considered to have no duration in Japanese. Or, well

Anonymous

12:49

Even if you consider it to span the entire act of sitting (which could take, what, half a second?)

Anonymous

It's very short.

Damkerng T.

I think it is from a different reason.

It's because Thai is pro-drop.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

And we usually drop the [-ing] whenever we can.

Which is actually, almost always.

Anonymous

This stuff, by the way, is what that Aktionsart thing is about

Anonymous

12:50

It's different in different languages.

Anonymous

Pro-drop means that you can drop pronouns. [-ing] is not a pronoun

Damkerng T.

So, when we say [-ing], it will sound almost as if we are emphasizing the [-ing] sense.

Anonymous

So you're describing more generally things being omissible

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

That's interesting

Damkerng T.

12:51

And it will be strange to emphasize the [-ing] of sitting without a really good context.

(I'm not saying that it's impossible.)

Anonymous

I left a comment asking what the OP's native language is

Anonymous

So here, the OP thinks that wear is simply the act of putting the hat on her head.

Damkerng T.

I think [-ing] for sitting in Thai is more appropriate if we're thinking about something similar to English while construction.

Anonymous

She's not still wearing the hat--she's already worn it!

Anonymous

She's done with that very short activity.

Damkerng T.

12:53

I think that's probably the case!

Yeah, it also sounds odd in Thai to say wear [-ing]. :-)

Anonymous

In Japanese, some verbs can be interpreted multiple ways.

Anonymous

So kite iru "wearing" can mean putting something on, or it can mean that you're in the state of having put it on

Anonymous

Depending.

Anonymous

So a Japanese student of English who assumes English works the same way might say "She was putting on a hat all morning"

Damkerng T.

Thai has mainly two words to suggest the [-ing] sense.

Anonymous

12:55

Uh-huh?

Anonymous

Japanese has more, too, that I haven't introduced :-)

Anonymous

Part of it's English's fault.

Damkerng T.

One is [kamlang]. Its main sense is ~ "doing".

The other is [yu]. Its main sense is ~ "stay" (suggesting the state of doing).

Anonymous

People needed a way to translate "dying", but sinu doesn't work that way, so translators started relying on sini tutu aru

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, interesting. And they have both grammatical and lexical usages?

Damkerng T.

12:57

Not really. The way I see it, Thai deals with tenses through suggestions.

So if we ask someone "What are you doing?"

He or she can reply in either with the simple (no extra word), or the progressive ([kamlang] or [yu]) aspect.

"(I) [kamlang] eat."

"(I) eat [yu]." (Don't you see it?)

"(I) [kamlang] eat [yu]."

"(I) eat."

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