English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

17:00

In Thai, the sound it makes is [pu]. pu-pu-pu-pu-...

Anonymous

It's typically called bubble wrap.

Anonymous

At least in the US

Damkerng T.

I see. What about each bubble? Just a bubble?

Anonymous

Um. Bubble? I guess? :-)

Anonymous

I've never discussed the bubbles in bubble wrap individually.

Damkerng T.

17:02

I guessed so! :-)

Anonymous

They seem bubbly to me.

Damkerng T.

Popping those bubbles can be addictive. :-)

Anonymous

I just looked up bubble wrap on Wikipedia, and apparently a Japanese company has invented a toy called Mugen Puchi-Puchi ("Infinite Pop! Pop!"), which is a toy designed to feel exactly like bubble wrap that you can pop, except that you can pop it over and over and over

Damkerng T.

Hah!

What an invention!

Must be really useful!

Japanese people are very creative on these sorts of things. :-)

I've once seen Japanese chopsticks come with a built-in small fan!

Anonymous

By the way, it's my belief that this sentence is super ungrammatical:

Anonymous

17:11

> Police believe the pirates who attacked a tanker; may have had "inside help".

Anonymous

I don't believe the semicolon changes the meaning. The only thing it does is convince you that someone put a semicolon there by mistake.

Damkerng T.

Definitely ungrammatical!

Oh, I got a downvote on ELU!

-1

A: One word for someone who thinks they can do anything, and believes everything they do is right but others are wrong

You call them a snob. snob noun [countable] showing disapproval someone who thinks they are better than other people, usually because of their social class. This word shows that you do not like people like this. a. someone who thinks their opinions and judgments are better than ...

It looks like I dropped "can" in my comment-to-answer conversion. (I wrote it as a comment first. Then I changed my mind and decided to post it as an answer instead.) But I think that is what the OP described.

(To the OP themselves, I mean.)

Anonymous

Hmm. I'm not sure I would go with snob myself

Damkerng T.

I won't say it myself.

Anonymous

There are several situations when I think of snob. One is a person who must always have what they perceive to be the best or finest wine(, cuisine, music, art, company, ...)

Anonymous

17:21

I don't usually associate it with acting morally superior or with hypocrisy

Damkerng T.

Perhaps I guessed too much.

Anonymous

Although to be honest, I think it's closer than, say, kuldeep's answer

Damkerng T.

I know the word hypocrat. And what that person did is called double-standard, I think.

Anonymous

(Really? "they are Castigator type person"?)

Damkerng T.

Self-righteous looks good.

Anonymous

17:23

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

Damkerng T.

But I'm rather sure that if the OP were a Thai, and he described someone as the OP did. I think "untouchable" or "snob" would fit what he thinks toward that person.

Perhaps, it's different in English.

Anonymous

Maybe sanctimonious?

Damkerng T.

See if I will get -2. :-)

Anonymous

You can do it!

Damkerng T.

555 :-)

Anonymous

17:26

I upvoted ermanen's answer

oerkelens

@snailboat I agree. Read in headline style, it can be parsed. But it's the police that had inside help :P

Anonymous

It appears to have both self-righteous and sanctimonious

Damkerng T.

I've never deleted my answer before. I will delete that if I got -3. :-)

Anonymous

@oerkelens Nope, I can't parse it as headlinese, either.

Anonymous

What does the sentence "Police believe the pirates who attacked a tanker" mean?

Anonymous

17:27

They believe that the pirates who attacked a tanker are telling the truth about something?

oerkelens

That those pirates are saying something, and the police believe what they hear

I did mention that the complete meaning changed :)

Anonymous

Okay, then what about the sentence 'May have had "inside help"'?

oerkelens

Headline:

Police may have had inside help

Anonymous

The first sentence is not headlinese. Are you splicing a non-headline with a headline using a semicolon??

oerkelens

yes, as the sentence was destroyed by the semi-colon

as i mentioned :)

Anonymous

17:29

My poor brain!

oerkelens

:)

just read again:

the

meaning

Anonymous

I can't manage to infer a subject in the second half.

oerkelens

changed

Anonymous

So to me, it has absolutely no meaning.

oerkelens

completely

Anonymous

17:29

Which is different from changing.

oerkelens

Subject in the second half is mentioned in the first: police

Anonymous

No, it's not. That's a different sentence.

Damkerng T.

> X; may help us!

oerkelens

ok, sorry, I should have said that the sentence changed.

Anonymous

Haha, you can say it however you want, I'm just saying I can't force it through my brain

Anonymous

17:31

I'm not trying to make you change your answer :-)

Anonymous

I did leave one comment suggesting you change your answer, which was suggesting you add dates on the quotes you gave, but I decided to do away with that comment

Anonymous

Presumably people reading the quote will realize punctuation isn't used the same way today

oerkelens

@snailboat I won't :) I removed it :)

I saw the comment, but I just posted the quote with source as found.

The source was, I thought, critical enough

Damkerng T.

Oh, my upvote was in vain.

oerkelens

but also gave some justification

Anonymous

17:35

Well, these days editors would be a bit more critical.

oerkelens

And it is not as if Huxley is such an old-fashiond writer

Anonymous

But 250 years ago, it was just fine and dandy to separate your subjects from your verbs with commas.

oerkelens

@snailboat I doubt it, I will keep my eyes open :)

@snailboat Which Huxley are you referring to?

Anonymous

@oerkelens Doubt it all you want. It's practically an ironclad rule now.

Anonymous

@oerkelens I have no idea why you'd think my sentence was referring to Huxley.

Anonymous

17:36

I was describing a long term trend which your cite was in the middle of.

oerkelens

@snailboat An example that was in my reference was to Huxley

Anonymous

It was kinda bad then, and it's really bad now.

oerkelens

That was not 250 years ago :)

Anonymous

But go back a bit further, and it was just fine.

Anonymous

Right. Have you read what I wrote?

oerkelens

17:36

There is a big tendency to break up sentences by throwing in extra commas

@snailboat I did, but I assumed (wrongly) that you referenced my reference :)

Anonymous

Do you have access to a copy of CGEL?

oerkelens

Afraid not

Anonymous

There's a short treatment of punctuation in it co-authored by Geoffrey Nunberg, author of The Linguistics of Punctuation

oerkelens

Anyways, I do (and already did!) agree that the one-comma version was, at best, debatable

Damkerng T.

That is what I should read.

I think my writing is inferior because I use too many commas.

oerkelens

17:39

There is a Dutch expression that comes to mind :P

"kommaneuken" which literally means "having carnal relations with commas"

Damkerng T.

> Analyzed in its own terms, however, punctuation manifests a coherent linguistic subsystem of “text-grammar” that coexists in writing with the system of “lexical grammar” that has been the traditional object of linguistic inquiry.

oerkelens

Meaning someone is paying too much attention to detail :)

Damkerng T.

Oh! Can however do that?

Oh, I think it can.

oerkelens

@DamkerngT. Where is my typo? :)

Damkerng T.

No. It was not yours. It's from The Linguistics of Punctuation.

oerkelens

17:42

Argh :)

Damkerng T.

"kommaneuken" sounds like comma-lover, I think.

oerkelens

yups

a variation is mierenneuken

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes

oerkelens

which also means having sex

But then with ants

Anonymous

My S key betrayed me again :-(

oerkelens

17:43

means the same :)

Damkerng T.

With ants!

oerkelens

Just in case you had any doubt left about the Dutch...

Anonymous

I believe in the Dutch!

Anonymous

I have no doubts!

Damkerng T.

"..."

:D

Anonymous

17:45

I'm full of supportive statements today.

Damkerng T.

"..." ~ speechless

oerkelens

@snailboat Oh? you burned down my answer :'(

Anonymous

@oerkelens I'm sorry!

Anonymous

I didn't mean to. It's just . . . I had this match, and . . .

oerkelens

@snailboat It's all right :)

I removed an answer from ELU as well today

I shouldn't try to combine work and language :D

Damkerng T.

17:47

I'm waiting for my first.

Anonymous

I removed an answer from ELL today. It wasn't a particularly good answer, and anyway, I realized I'd read the question wrong.

Anonymous

0

Q: Why can lifeless objects do things?

Enclosed you will find your individual agreement of employment detailing the terms and conditions of your contract. Rated 5 stars by Time magazine, the hotel overlooks the beautiful Langland Bay. Why something lifeless can "detail" or "overlook" anything? Is this some kind of "personify...

Anonymous

Maybe this person speaks a language where inanimate subjects are more restricted than in English.

oerkelens

@snailboat That is a better excuse than "oops I messed up my terminology so badly, my answer is beyond repair"

Damkerng T.

thinking...

oerkelens

17:49

@snailboat My initial answer would be: because verbs.

Damkerng T.

I remember that I had a similar problem once, but not because of my L1 has no such thing; it was because I learned about English's passive voice.

So, presumably, I expected inanimate subjects to always be used in the passive.

Anonymous

That implies an alignment between semantic roles and animacy that, I think, does not exist in English

Damkerng T.

wondering about CYC's L1...

It was a very long time before I learned that there is no such rule in English. :-)

I think it would be helpful if ELL users wrote in their profiles about their L1.

oerkelens

@DamkerngT. Yes, I agree

Anonymous

I did that!

Damkerng T.

17:54

Oh! I did that too!

Anonymous

I don't know if anyone ever reads my profile.

oerkelens

Although sometimes it's fun to guess based on their questions :)

Anonymous

I don't know how helpful it is for people to know that I'm a native speaker of English.

Damkerng T.

It can be fun too (to guess)!

oerkelens

@snailboat Oh, that is very useful! Because then anything you say about English is the truth!

Anonymous

17:55

Ha.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

I wish I had as much faith in my fellow native speakers as you've just feigned :-)

Anonymous

Occasionally it seems relevant to point out that I'm a native speaker, but most of the time I think it's irrelevant information

Damkerng T.

I think I'm gonna have to restart my browser soon enough.

Anonymous

Oh no!

Anonymous

17:57

But you have 4,000 pages open!

Damkerng T.

Considering that I have 20 windows right now.

Hmm... maybe not that many. But several hundreds, I'm sure. :-)

Down to 19.

18

This might buy me some more time.

17

Hmm... looks like the browser won't release the memory it took.

Anonymous

Well, once the parent process dies it will :-)

Damkerng T.

Meh!

Oh!

Anonymous

You only reckon that "chicken" can't be an adjective because you're jealous that my soup is chickener than your soup. Your soup is barely chicken at all. My soup is the chickenest soup around. — tobyink 7 mins ago

Anonymous

Very funny :-)

Damkerng T.

18:07

Hahaha!

Anonymous

Nonstandard English is great fun.

Anonymous

You know what slang I miss?

Damkerng T.

Tomohiko TANIGUCHI is on CNN right now. I think he speaks English very clearly and fluently! I didn't know that he's Japanese until I looked up.

Anonymous

Harshing my melon. Or something like that. I don't entirely know what it means, but it sounded so neat. I miss it!

Anonymous

Japanese doesn't have a /tn/ cluster

Anonymous

18:11

It looks like you meant to type TANIGUCHI

Anonymous

Yay!

Anonymous

All better.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

Is the TOEIC a difficult test?

Anonymous

Have you heard anything about it before?

Damkerng T.

18:13

Hmm.. I'm not sure if it's the one I think.

Anonymous

It's popular in Japan.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I think I remember now. I think TOEIC is easier than TOEFL.

Anonymous

Someone I know was saying he got a perfect score on the TOEIC.

Anonymous

Which I believe, although I think he learned both English and Japanese from birth

Anonymous

And he had to take a test because companies in Japan like certificates.

Damkerng T.

18:15

I'm not sure, but from what I've heard, I think there is a TOEIC that has no listening included.

Anonymous

Wow!

Anonymous

Oh, the internet says it's listening and reading.

Anonymous

They apparently have a separate test for speaking and writing, too. I don't know if people take that one or not.

Damkerng T.

I think they are two different things.

Yeah!

oerkelens

@snailboat Can the internet do that?

Anonymous

18:16

@oerkelens Yes. I asked it.

Damkerng T.

It told me the same thing, too!

Anonymous

See, we're friends with the internet.

Anonymous

All the cool kids are.

Damkerng T.

grinning

Chenmunka

But is the internet friends with us?

oerkelens

18:17

::::)

Damkerng T.

Maybe, maybe not.

Anonymous

I don't know. I always imagined it was reciprocal.

Anonymous

But I haven't asked the internet.

Anonymous

@oerkelens Once, long ago, in the bygone era of the 1990s

Chenmunka

It can be a bit recalcitrant at times.

Anonymous

18:18

When Latvia's internet connection was a single 768K DSL line

Damkerng T.

It can even spy on us. :-)

Anonymous

There was a place where people in Riga chatted, and some of us English speakers barged in and chatted too

Anonymous

And people there smiled like this :))))))))

Anonymous

The happier they were, the more mouths they had! :))))))))))))))

Damkerng T.

Nice!

Anonymous

18:19

Some people were really happy! :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

oerkelens

:)

Anonymous

But one girl, she had a peculiar quality. ))))))

Anonymous

You see, she had no eyes! )))))))))))

oerkelens

I have seen that... but it looks like extra chins to me :(

Anonymous

Sure, she had mouths to spare. )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Anonymous

18:20

Or chins, if you like. I can't tell one way or the other, myself. )))))

Anonymous

Sometimes she even had frowny mouths ((((((((((((((((((

Anonymous

Or I suppose, frowny chins ((((

oerkelens

I prefer extra mouths over extra chins :)

Anonymous

So one day, we asked her about it.

Anonymous

Why did she have no eyes, we asked?

Anonymous

18:20

Her response was wordless :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::)

Anonymous

That was the day we learned that a girl in Latvia had the superpower of saving up all her eyes to use at once.

Damkerng T.

But wait a minute, why did we talk about TOEIC a while ago?

Anonymous

The End

Damkerng T.

(sorry to interrupt The End)

Chenmunka

Wow. The last time I was in Riga, the Icelandic volcano had closed the airports and I had to get home by boat. Happy days!

oerkelens

18:22

Beautiful story :)

Damkerng T.

Maybe I should change my smiling emoticon to... :8)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, it came up elsewhere. I was trying to guess whether it'd be easy or hard for a native speaker to ace the test.

Damkerng T.

Is there any native speaker aiming for the test?!

Anonymous

@Chenmunka Was that 2010?

Chenmunka

Yes it was

I started in Vilnius and took four days to get back to London

Anonymous

18:24

@DamkerngT. The person I was mentioning was raised bilingual I think, but had to take the test because Japanese companies love certificates.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

I can imagine that it might be a little tricky (just a little) for native speakers.

I'm not sure, but some grammar points might surprise them.

Anonymous

Well, this person is also a linguist.

Damkerng T.

The TOEIC I knew wasn't quite realistic, I think.

Oh, that person should be fine, then.

Chenmunka

I've been to Riga several times but failed dismally to pick up any words of Latvian. I can speak a little Russian but thought that might not go down too well.

Anonymous

I at one time picked up a small amount of Latvian vocabulary, but I've since managed to forget all of it.

Chenmunka

18:32

The only Lithuanian I managed was Alus, which is beer. You have to have your priorities right.

Anonymous

Hah

Damkerng T.

Of course!

I would do the same thing!

Hmm... I don't know why the only German word I can still remember is drucken.

Anonymous

For years growing up I had a Lithuanian best friend, and again I managed to pick up a few word of Lithuanian, but have since forgotten all of them...

Anonymous

I'm a champion of forgetting!

Anonymous

That's the one thing language learning has taught me.

Anonymous

18:34

I can forget like a pro!

Damkerng T.

Wow! That's amazing!

Anonymous

Thank you!

Anonymous

I've always considered entering the World Forgetting Championships.

Anonymous

But I can never remember to get my entry slip in on time.

Chenmunka

Very good!

Damkerng T.

18:35

What was the competition's name, again? I already forgot it.

Anonymous

Oh, training, are you?

Damkerng T.

Yeah! :-)

Anonymous

4

Q: What does "drink like a professional" mean in this context?

Scott Fitzgerald always drank like a professional, collapsing the arc from charming to churlish early on. This sentence is from a review by P. Green of ’Z: A Novel of Zelda Fitzgerald’ in The NY Times. Does it mean he drank a lot and alcohol turned him "from charming to churlish"? I am not...

meaning-in-context

Anonymous

I knew I remembered that question!

Anonymous

Wow, that's a big comment thread.

Anonymous

18:40

It seems like there's some interesting stuff to read about animacy in linguistics that I've barely heard of.

Damkerng T.

I guess that the animacy and that drink like a pro are two different things.

Anonymous

Oh, yes.

Anonymous

That's just me on my usual non sequitur kick.

Anonymous

The trouble is, the path by which I changed subjects made sense in my head, but I didn't write down any of the intermediate steps for you to read :-)

Anonymous

books.google.co.jp/…

Damkerng T.

18:45

I think I did that very often.

Some of pronouns I used I alone knew what or who or which I referred to.

Hmm... I think StoneyB mentioned something related to animacy once.

Anonymous

19:01

Are you asking for a description of the figure of speech by which a "pen writes" rather than the one holding the pen, and a "car drives" rather than the one behind the wheel? — snailplane 30 mins ago

Anonymous

@snailplane I can't understand your question... — CYC 2 mins ago

Anonymous

D'oh!

Anonymous

How do I un-snailplane my sentence?

Damkerng T.

Nix "figure of speech".

Anonymous

Hrmphle.

oerkelens

19:05

:D

Damkerng T.

Heehee.

Anonymous

English is too hard.

Damkerng T.

LOL

OTF

> Are you asking for an explanation why we say "a pen writes" instead of "a pen is used to write", and "a car drives" instead of "a car was driven" or "we drive a car"?

I attempt to rewrite it in English. :D

Anonymous

Oh, English!

Anonymous

What is this "with your elbows rested on the table"? Does that sound funny to anyone else?

Damkerng T.

19:15

I can imagine my old self being surprised by "This pen writes perfectly." because I expected "This pen can be used to write perfectly."

@snailboat I mentioned that several hours ago!

Both in a comment (asking for the source) and in here, I think.

Anonymous

Oh, I missed it!

Anonymous

I think. Did I forget? :-)

Damkerng T.

10 hours ago, by Damkerng T.

> It's impolite to sit down with your elbows rested on the table.

Anonymous

Hey, this is neat: rumor and repute are restricted to the passive:

Anonymous

> It is rumored that there will be an election before the end of the year.

Anonymous

19:17

It's funny trying to come up with an active sentence for these verbs.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I think they are!

But from which question are they?

Anonymous

None. Just going through a book.

Damkerng T.

I'm just curious: where did you find "It's impolite to sit down with your elbows rested on the table."? — Damkerng T. 11 hours ago

@Damkerng T. In an exam paper, probably be made up by purpose. — CYC 10 hours ago

Anonymous

> It is said to be a type of melon.
> *They say it to be a type of melon.

Anonymous

With a to-infinitive complement, say is restricted to the passive

Damkerng T.

19:19

CYC's comment got a +1. Someone must agree with CYC that it's a correct usage because it was in an exam paper.

Anonymous

I'd never notice this stuff on my own.

Anonymous

I didn't vote it up, but I did in spirit.

Anonymous

It's useful information. "Probably made up on purpose"!

Damkerng T.

> They say it is a type of melon.

I think this one is okay.

Anonymous

But my mental (not actual) upvote isn't meant to communicate that it's correct because it's in an exam paper.

Anonymous

19:20

@DamkerngT. Yes, it's only with that particular type of complement.

Anonymous

I was looking up bare passives, because that rested there looks like one to me.

Damkerng T.

I think I've heard a to-infinitive being used as an adverbial today, but I forgot the sentence already. (See, I'm good at forgetting too!)

Anonymous

> The guy [ mauled by our neighbor's dog ] is in intensive care.

Anonymous

CGEL says this is a bare passive.

Damkerng T.

My gut says that it is a passive.

Anonymous

19:25

Presumably the same as:

Anonymous

> The guy [ ~~who was~~ mauled by our neighbor's dog ] is in intensive care.

Damkerng T.

So unless somebody else forced our elbows to be rested on the table, ...

In any case, I think resting sounds much better.

Anonymous

I can't manage the same ellipsis trick with rested. But:

Anonymous

> It's impolite to sit down with your elbows [ ~~being~~ rested on the table ].

Anonymous

> It's impolite to sit down with your elbows [ ~~being~~ placed on the table ].

Damkerng T.

19:27

Interesting.

Anonymous

So if we say this is passive, and place is transitive but rest is not, then it's funny passivizing rest

Cerberus

Verbs like rest are exceptions.

Anonymous

This is the explanation that occurred to me when I read the question, but I don't feel especially confident about it.

Anonymous

You can rest your arms on the table, can't you?

oerkelens

But why would rest be intransitive?

Cerberus

19:28

Because their sense/voice changes from normal verb form to passive particle.

oerkelens

rests his head

Cerberus

And hello again!

Damkerng T.

Hello!

Anonymous

@oerkelens Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, that seems wrong to me.

Anonymous

I think I mixed it up.

oerkelens

19:29

@Cerberus You missed your turn to the super market... :P

Cerberus

Rest can become intransitive / change meaning when you turn it into a past participle, just like agree and a couple of others.

Anonymous

This is why I'm thinking it through in the chat :-D

oerkelens

@snailboat then I rest my case :P

Anonymous

@oerkelens Nice :-)

Damkerng T.

The case is probably rested on the table.

Anonymous

19:30

Ergh.

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

The question is here, by the way:

Anonymous

1

Q: the usage of "rest"

I know "It's impolite to sit down with your elbows rested on the table." is correct, which just sounds pretty well to me, but I had also seen some sentence like "AUDREY is sitting on the floor of her room with her back resting against her bed." (Source:Resting Sentence Examples. I added "with" in...

grammar

Anonymous

@Cerberus @oerkelens In case either of you would like to write an answer. :-)

oerkelens

My internet is borked, I cannot even reach google :(

Anonymous

19:31

Oh no!

oerkelens

somehow open chat works (for now)

Anonymous

Um, DNS problems, then?

Anonymous

(Full routing table?)

Damkerng T.

My ISP did that sometimes.

Anonymous

Your ISP is a jerk.

Anonymous

19:32

Deliver unto it punches.

Damkerng T.

punching...

Anonymous

I'm glad to see you take my directives seriously.

Damkerng T.

I'm a rather direct man.

:D

Anonymous

I'm going to go look up rest.

oerkelens

@snailboat might be, but I cannot find anything wrong here inside

so, yes, I blame my ISP

I blame everything on being in Belgium, anyway

It's easy :P

Damkerng T.

19:33

Heh!

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

But you have waffles!

Anonymous

And uh, the curse of AZERTY?

oerkelens

Waffles make up for a lot f things :)

and no, no AZERTY :)

my own (Dutch) laptop at home, and work is NATO, so all US-international

Anonymous

Oh, yay!

Anonymous

19:42

@Cerberus Thank you for the answer! I upvoted it.

Cerberus

Thanks!

@oerkelens Wise.

OK now I must run, bai!

Otnas

20:21

Anybody around?

oerkelens

around what?

Otnas

I just wanted to make sure that somebody was around here in the chat box.

@oerkelens What do you do?An English professor?

oerkelens

@Otnas nopes :)

I'm a Dutch programmer :)

Anonymous

20:36

@Otnas Yay! Now that you've made sure, do you feel that all is right with the world?

Otnas

You guys are making me feel a bit insecure.This is the first time I am visiting the chat.

oerkelens

Sorry, I didn't mean any harm :)

Otnas

Easy..:)

Will this chat room help me improve my English?

Anonymous

It could! :-)

Anonymous

Welcome to ELL chat!

Otnas

21:05

Thanks:)
Got to sleep.It is 2:32a.m. here in India.Good night people.!

Anonymous

Rest well!

Jasper Loy

22:04

This chat is not exciting!

I see that snailboat and damkerng are the most frequent talkers in here.

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