English Language Learners

Anonymous

09:00

My answer that's so recent it's not out yet.

Anonymous

Coming to a question near you!

Damkerng T.

Oh! Should I buy a ticket in advance?

Anonymous

Um! Okay! Yes! Send all your ticket-buying monies to me.

Damkerng T.

[money(ies)] <-- Here goes.

1

Q: Expression "How far did we drive?"

　　　　 A tour bus stoped and a lot of passengers started getting off the bus. And one of them said to others, "I fell asleep. How far did we drive?" I think that sounds a little weird becuase it's not them who have driven the bus. I mean, the bus driver would be able to say "How far did I ...

Sometimes I wonder about this kind of questions: isn't it also like that in the OP's L1?

> It's impolite to sit down with your elbows rested on the table.

Really?

Somehow it doesn't pass my filter.

I might be wrong (about the usage of participles), but I think Maulik thinks the way the writer of that sentence thinks.

> It's impolite to sit down with your elbows rested on the table -teaches the table-manners; 'resting' may work but then it may become a process of 'resting' your elbow there. Using 'rested' defines the posture of that manner. --Maulik

Anonymous

1

A: is "release date" grammatically correct?

They're attributive nouns. Here, release is an attributive noun. It modifies the head noun directly following it: release date Together they form the nominal release date, meaning "the date of [something]'s release". Add an article to that, and we get a complete noun phrase: [ The re...

Anonymous

09:11

What the--someone upvoted it!

Anonymous

They can't have read the whole thing in 22 seconds :-)

Damkerng T.

Did I do any wrongdoing upvoting before reading an answer? :-)

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

Well, you could try reading it and see if you think it deserves an upvote or a downvote.

Damkerng T.

I'm 98% sure that I will like the answer.

And 100% sure that it is useful. (Useful is the criterion for upvoting, I think.)

Anonymous

09:13

I disagree with the other part of helix's answer, too, where he says it can be parsed ((Iphone->release)->date)

Damkerng T.

That's what I noticed, too.

Anonymous

Well, maybe it can. But it's not how I read it. Then it would be iPhone release date and iPhone release price.

Anonymous

I guess I don't really disagree, then.

Damkerng T.

I rather disagree with the parse.

Anonymous

I feel like it would take a weird bit of pronunciation to communicate that type of structure, though.

Anonymous

09:15

So I feel like it's less likely.

Anonymous

Yay! I gots me some upvotes!

Anonymous

I'm so proud!

Damkerng T.

You should be!

Anonymous

You need to repeat the same auxiliary I used to license post-auxiliary ellipsis:

Anonymous

> I am [so proud].

Anonymous

09:17

> You should be ~~[so proud]~~.

Anonymous

> #You should.

Damkerng T.

I see. So, I need to repeat the be, I think.

Anonymous

"You should" is grammatical but it doesn't work in this context, so I marked it with # instead of *.

Anonymous

Reason being, there's no use of should in this context to license PAE after should.

Anonymous

But:

Anonymous

09:18

> I should [take out the trash].

Anonymous

> You should ~~[take out the trash]~~.

Damkerng T.

The same goes to things like "He should have" too, I guess?

Anonymous

> He should have [taken out the trash].

Anonymous

> Yeah, he should have ~~[taken out the trash]~~.

Damkerng T.

It's strange then, in question tags, we drop the have in "..., shouldn't he?"

Anonymous

09:21

Ah, but tag questions aren't really ellipsis, I think

Anonymous

You have to come up with a specific set of rules for forming tag questions if you want them to be accurate.

Anonymous

No matter how you make the rules, though, you end up with exceptions, right?

Anonymous

(", right?" is an example of an exception :-)

Damkerng T.

I see. I thought of them the same way, so I got the confusion.

Anonymous

I can't type up all the rules from memory. I'd have to look them up.

Anonymous

09:22

Since I'm a native speaker, I've never had to study forming tag questions

Damkerng T.

I guess so!

Anonymous

Of course, there are a lot of things I studied anyway--

Anonymous

--but things like this that I haven't, I'm honestly rather clueless about :-)

Anonymous

I suppose non-native speakers can learn to form tag questions without studying, too, with enough exposure

Anonymous

Is that how you learned?

Damkerng T.

09:23

Yes.

Anonymous

Have you ever studied tag questions?

Damkerng T.

I think some teachers might have tried to, but I didn't really pay my attention.

I'm sorry, teachers.

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

There are aspects of English grammar I've never studied because they don't seem as fun.

Damkerng T.

I mean, grammar really turned me off (and maybe down too) back then.

Anonymous

09:25

Aw!

Anonymous

I just think grammar is really fun.

Damkerng T.

It became fun after I knew what it's for.

Anonymous

When I write my answers, I always secretly hope there's someone in the audience who thinks so, too :-)

Anonymous

People who don't care about grammar thingies can always read other peoples' answers.

helix

@snailboat I removed "and price" because to make the parse tree simpler.

Also, great answer.

Anonymous

09:26

Hehe, thanks :-)

Damkerng T.

The only thing that stopped me from upvoting your answer was this: ((Iphone->release)->date)

helix

How would you have parsed it?

Damkerng T.

Internally, I read it as (Iphone->release->date).

(If I use your notation.)

I checked my understanding by asking myself "What date?"

"It's a release date." "What release date? Or release date of what?"

Anonymous

I think release date to me is one lexical item, so my internal parser has a strong preference for [iPhone [release date]], even though [[iPhone release] date] makes sense to me too

Damkerng T.

"It's the iPhone release date."

helix

09:29

"What's being released?"

Damkerng T.

I didn't mention released.

I asked, "What 'release date'?"

helix

Makes sense.

Anonymous

Coordinated with price, however: [[iPhone release] [date and price]] versus [iPhone [[release date] and price]], pronouncing the former I end up with less natural intonation, so I think it's more likely the latter

Damkerng T.

Mentally, I think I read it as "iPhone release date and (iPhone) price".

helix

I have so much editing to do that I'm tempted to just delete it.

Damkerng T.

09:34

I think the rest of your answer is very useful.

Anonymous

@helix You don't need to delete it. (Anyway, you can't. It's the accepted answer.)

Anonymous

But my answer is there to give an opposing point of view :-)

Maulik V

Hello...

biggies1

Damkerng T.

+0.75 or more from StoneyB is a good sign. :-)

Anonymous

(Note that no one has downvoted your answer or anything)

Damkerng T.

09:35

I think I'm not sure if I like being called a biggy. (I think I'm not.)

Maulik V

Hello Hagu...then :)

haha

helix

What's a Hagu?

Damkerng T.

Heehee.

Maulik V

Just finished a lecture

Anonymous

Oh, I always just assume Maulik's talking to someone else.

Damkerng T.

09:36

Meow. (Hagu is my cat.)

Maulik V

don't insult ... She's A TOM

He's a TOM rather!

haha

Today's topic was KISS - Keep it Short and Simple

Anonymous

Hagu is a tomcat!

Maulik V

Come out of the complexities... be simple

Damkerng T.

To me, he is just a silly cat. :-)

Maulik V

and things become so easy to learn, tell and so convince!

now, who has headphones?

or speakers for that sense?

want to show you something

Damkerng T.

09:38

Are you trying to convince us to listen to something?

Maulik V

yes

Damkerng T.

Less than 3 minutes is okay, I think.

helix

How do I rephrase "Nouns can be used as adjectives."

Maulik V

There's a Hindi movie titled Three Idiots

Anonymous

It's a fine way of saying that nouns can be used as adjectives.

helix

09:39

To mean: Eggplants are fruits used as vegetables.

However, eggplants are still fruits.

Anonymous

You could change it to the slightly different: "Nouns can be used like adjectives."

Maulik V

Brilliant movie...the crux of that movie is - do what you feel, listen to your soul and practice simple.

Anybody up for it?

Damkerng T.

Is it something like The Three Stoogers?

helix

@MaulikV I love that movie.

Anonymous

They're still different in a number of ways, but they are being used in roughly the same way in that construction.

Maulik V

09:40

Hey, how do you know that?

Indian?

helix

@snailboat I'm going with "Nouns can sometimes be used like adjectives."

Anonymous

Oh, hedging!

Maulik V

@helix Indian?

helix

@MaulikV No; it's kinda popular here.

Maulik V

here where?

helix

09:41

I saw it during college.

Maulik V

I strongly recommend this....so so so so good it is

►

less than 4 minutes

Anonymous

What is it that we need speakers or headphones for?

Maulik V

but brilliantly executed

Anonymous

Is it that link, or something else?

Maulik V

listening

video

done?

Damkerng T.

09:48

Yep. Though I'm not sure I really like it. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood, I think. :-)

Maulik V

Oh...mood what happend? are you okay healthwise?

Damkerng T.

No. It's not like that.

Maulik V

okay

That's my favorite scene in the movie..have watched more than 100 times :)

haha

Damkerng T.

I can imagine that it is really hilarious for most people.

Anonymous

I'm listening to the Frozen soundtrack.

Maulik V

09:50

The summer is on... and it'll be TERRIBLE weather in my city ...for coming 3 months

@snailboat not that video :(

Anonymous

It was playing the entire time I was writing my last answer :-)

Damkerng T.

It's getting warmer here, too.

@snailboat Nice!

Maulik V

Ahmedabad will reach 45+

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's way too hot!

Maulik V

yes... the sun loves us so much... keeps on kissing our skin :)

Anonymous

09:53

And giving everyone skin cancer. Thanks, Sol!

Maulik V

Crystal, did you watch that video?

It's fun...

Anonymous

No. Is that what you asked if I had speakers for?

Damkerng T.

I'm sure people over there have less skin cancer problems.

Anonymous

Over there where?

Damkerng T.

I've heard that our skin colors help us from the sunlight.

@snailboat Where Mualik is.

Anonymous

09:55

Ahh.

Anonymous

Over there here, I probably have it worse than you. I have Irish ancestry, and I didn't get much in the way of melanin production genetically.

Damkerng T.

In this respect, I think you are at higher risk. :-)

And I'm kind of somewhere in the middle. :-)

Anonymous

You can't follow be with think

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes. TYftC. My fingers acted on their own mind!

Maulik V

I think that

isn't it?

Damkerng T.

09:58

(That) that is unnecessary, I believe.

Anonymous

That-insertion is optional.

Anonymous

You could certainly insert that if you wanted to.

Maulik V

Then?

lol...check oerkelens

0

Q: Is this sentence grammatical? "like after..."

Is this sentence correct? I cried like after some horrible thing happened.

grammar

Anonymous

However, if you placed it at the beginning of the sentence, that would be required:

Anonymous

> [ That you are at higher risk ] is what I think.

Anonymous

09:59

> *[ ~~That~~ you are at higher risk ] is what I think.

Anonymous

> I think [ that you are at higher risk ].

Anonymous

> I think [ ~~that~~ you are at higher risk ].

Maulik V

But if I want to use I think...first then?

okay...

Anonymous

Reason being: when I say "I think [ ~~that~~ you are at higher risk ]", you can tell from the sentence structure that it's a subordinate clause, even without that.

Maulik V

But Crystal, I think you is so so so common

Anonymous

10:01

But when you begin a sentence with a subordinate clause, the listener needs a way to tell that it's not a main clause, so you have to let them know with that.

Anonymous

(Or with the appropriate subordinator for the clause in question.)

Anonymous

@MaulikV I just agreed that "I think you are at higher risk" is fine.

Maulik V

ok

Anonymous

I agree that it's common

Damkerng T.

Btw, forums and tweets are not the best places to find good English usages.

Anonymous

10:04

@DamkerngT. Is this comment apropos of something in particular?

Damkerng T.

I've seen it in Maulik's question today.

> "Your either for or against him."

I think.

Anonymous

That's misspelled, but the actual English is fine.

Anonymous

(Meaning the words the sounds indicated represent)

Damkerng T.

Common doesn't mean correct (or incorrect).

Exactly.

I also think those autocorrect implementations are involved.

Anonymous

@MaulikV I voted to close.

Anonymous

10:06

(And upvoted both of your comments)

helix

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/22040/…

Is there a figure of speech that applies to this?

Maulik V

yea... I could not stop smiling at oerkelens there

lol

helix

Re: How far did we drive? I think there's figure of speech that is similar to Metonymy but applies to experience.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I don't know the exact word, but I think metonymy is really close.

helix

e.g. We landed on the moon.

Americans figuratively landed on the moon, but in truth only a few people literally did.

Damkerng T.

10:14

Emotionally involved (in the event)?

Maulik V

@helix nods

Yeah, also called as figure of speech I guess

I mean type of

Anonymous

Yeah, you can say the driver drove, which is literally true. But you can also say the group of people containing the driver and passengers drove, and you can also say the car itself drove.

Anonymous

But you can't say a group not including the driver drove, just by virtue of being in the car.

Damkerng T.

It's almost the same here.

Oh, maybe "generic we" works.

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378216600000527

Though I think it's not exactly the case of "How far did we drive?"

Anonymous

I'm no good with those fancy rhetoric terms, but I'd have picked synecdoche.

Anonymous

10:20

I feel like the key is that the group must actually contain the driver, so the group takes on the properties of the individual it contains.

Damkerng T.

Synecdoche sounds so, umm..., unfanciful! (Really?! :-)

Anonymous

Have you heard it pronounced?

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Anonymous

It sounds so nifty.

helix

My rule is if it's Greek, I pronounce it as is.

Anonymous

10:22

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/synecdoche

Anonymous

That has a pronunciation button.

Damkerng T.

'tsounds like sin-Neck-okay!

Anonymous

You're missing the all-important /d/.

Anonymous

(Also, the final vowel is different.)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I guessed it wrong. I think it's more like "sin-Nectdo-key".

helix

10:24

@snailboat Synecdoche is close but I don't think that's it.

Anonymous

Ah, well, good luck finding the right one :-)

Damkerng T.

I think it's the right one. (If I understand everything correctly.)

Is there any language that "we" cannot be used that way?

Anonymous

I can't answer that.

Anonymous

Intuitively, I want to say no.

Damkerng T.

I think that's why linguistics can be fun. :-)

Anonymous

10:32

Why? Because some linguistics questions are hard to answer?

Anonymous

Or because we can make speculation based on intuition? :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes differences between language can be surprising.

Damkerng T.

Because it keeps us thinking, and it's hard to find anyone who can really answer the questions. :-)

Anonymous

Recently something that came on Japanese.SE was the rule against using inanimate subjects with causative verbs.

Anonymous

English allows this: "The movie made me sad."

Damkerng T.

10:33

We can't do that in Japanese?

I'm rather sure that it's also fine in Chinese.

Anonymous

Oh, I see that Jasper Loy is a veteran of ELU.

Damkerng T.

He sure is. I think lots of people know that he deleted and created his account again and again, many times. :-)

I chatted with him a few times.

I think someone mentioned that he will delete his account again if his rep points hit 2000. :-)

Anonymous

Oh. Many people, but not me!

Damkerng T.

Perhaps this time he won't. (Just took a look at his ELU rep.)

> *This soup is something chicken.

Interesting.

How about this one?

> ?This soup is kind of chicken.

Anonymous

Nonstandard.

Damkerng T.

10:47

nods

I think one thing everyone seemed to overlook is: is "released date" a good usage?

Most people seem to simply use just "release date", but some seem to also use "released date".

In any case, the OP didn't explicitly ask that.

Anonymous

COCA has 247 results for release date and 0 for released date

Damkerng T.

I found some on Google Books.

I would rather stick with "release date".

Anonymous

On Google Books NGrams Viewer, released date appears to be at least a thousand times less common.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I can't say the phrase occurred to me.

Damkerng T.

10:52

> .. to derive a predicted released date.

Anonymous

Looking through results in a Google Books search, most of them look like released ends a sentence, and date follows a period

Anonymous

All of the results on the first page, which is 10.

Anonymous

So, let's estimate at least ten thousand times less common.

helix

I don't think they're used in the same way.

"Released date" is closer to "date released" than "release date" is.

Damkerng T.

That's interesting! I'd like to hear more!

helix

10:55

We usually see "released date" and "date released" in forms to indicate when a certain thing is released as in "date released:" with a colon.

Damkerng T.

nods

That sounds plausible.

Anonymous

I'm enjoying my new art tablet! :-) I hope I can get it working under Linux later, but I do have a Windows computer, so it's fine for now.

Anonymous

I want to get in the habit of drawing every day again.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

@helix Your answer looks better now

Damkerng T.

11:05

I upvoted it too!

Anonymous

Wow. Check out the list of related questions.

Damkerng T.

Everything "grammatically correct"!

I think we should have a word for the time when it looks almost like rain, but it won't rain.

Anonymous

A single word?

Damkerng T.

Yes. A short phrase might be good too.

I think I'm having it now.

I can't find a good word or phrase for it even in my L1.

"Almost raining" is close enough, I think.

I think it is definitely not going to rain. I'd better go out. BBL.

Anonymous

11:32

@MaulikV Unused rooms freeze after 14 days.

Anonymous

If no one talks in the Indians Learning English room, it will be frozen soon.

Anonymous

(It says 13 days have passed. I'm not sure how much of that last day is left.)

Damkerng T.

What will happen once it is frozen?

> Poetry is emotion put into measure. The emotion must come by nature, but the measure can be acquired by art.

I think that "measure" was used in several senses: 1. "an action that is intended to achieve or deal with something"; 3. "a way of judging something"; 5. [music] [American] "any of the sections that a line of printed music is divided into, separated from each other by upright lines. The British word is bar."

Damkerng T.

12:39

Hi! It's nice to see you here.

Jasper Loy

@DamkerngT. Hi! Who made you the owner of this room? Or are you a mod here?

Damkerng T.

snailboat did it. :-)

Btw, I'm just an owner of the room, not the owner.

Jasper Loy

@DamkerngT. Do you want to post customised as an answer? If not I will.

Damkerng T.

Please do.

Jasper Loy

OK then.

Anonymous

14:32

@DamkerngT. Then no one will be able to talk.

Damkerng T.

What a pity!

Anonymous

14:46

Oh!

Anonymous

0

Q: What does this recondite sentence mean?

But such desire is in him merely to see the hearthsmoke leaping upward from his own island, that he longs to die. (from The Odyssey by Homer Source) I don't understand the structure of this.

grammar

Anonymous

1

Q: What does this recondite quote mean by Hardy?

Check out this sentence: Poetry is emotion put into measure. The emotion must come by nature, but the measure can be acquired by art. Is it saying "poetry is an emotion in a measure? Emotion will come from you naturally, and no need to labor for it. On the other hand, the measure comes only...

grammar

Anonymous

This is a good indication that they're the same person. :-)

Damkerng T.

Everything seems so recondite. :-)

Hmm... Strange. They translated chap as "a young boy" (on my cable TV).

Damkerng T.

15:38

1

Q: Question about wishes

First of all, is "good fortune" a proper phrase in English? And, do British/American people wish others a long life / "good fortune"/ peacefulness? I did some google search, and it seems that Anglo-Jewish people would with someone a long life, but not for others (most just wish others healthy). ...