English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

21:04

Interesting voting stat: ell.stackexchange.com/users?tab=Voters&filter=week

Only 6 people vote on ELL this week.

Anonymous

21:16

Well, the week just started.

Anonymous

More or less, anyway.

Anonymous

Also, I think it doesn't show users with 10 or fewer votes.

Damkerng T.

nods

I haven't known about not showing fewer than 10 votes.

I'm sure I haven't voted this week as often as last week.

Anonymous

"Only 6 people voted ..." "I didn't know about ..."

Damkerng T.

I agree with "6 people voted", but why "I haven't known ..." doesn't work?

I mean I haven't known about it before.

Until you told me.

a bit confused

Maybe I shouldn't have dropped "before".

Should I think in the past tense?

Anonymous

21:33

You know about it now. You're talking about it.

Anonymous

You didn't know about it before, but now you do.

Damkerng T.

I see.

Does this mean that "I haven't known" is impossible?

Anonymous

Are you comparing it to, say, "I haven't seen that before"?

Damkerng T.

(Another related pattern: "I have never known ...")

Maybe.

I mean I didn't compare them.

It was how I thought about them.

Anonymous

It's not exactly impossible.

Anonymous

21:36

"I haven't known him very long."

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

> ??I haven't known this before.
> I haven't known this for very long.

Damkerng T.

Does it sound okay if I say, "I didn't know ... before until you mentioned it."?

(I guess it's fine.)

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

Uh.

Damkerng T.

21:38

I see. Eh?

Anonymous

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/21906/…

Damkerng T.

It was gone.

Anonymous

This was removed for reasons of moderation awful quick ;-)

Anonymous

I can't help but gawk in curiosity.

Anonymous

What did it say!? I'll never know.

Damkerng T.

21:39

They linked it to meta.stackexchange.com/a/230254

Anonymous

Hah! That figures.

Anonymous

That particular user's behavior on various sites has been, um, well, perhaps best left undescribed.

Anonymous

I encountered them on ELU and ELL both.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

There are songs I listen to that are otherwise crystal clear where I can't hear, say, one consonant, no matter how many times I listen

Damkerng T.

21:43

One consonant? curious

In Japanese, I guess.

Anonymous

My OCD side wants to be able to force 100% of the song through my brain instead of 99%.

Anonymous

Well, yes. But that's not to say I can hear everything in English with 100% accuracy.

Damkerng T.

I'm happy with 95% level in Thai already. :D

Anonymous

But I spend time daily on Japanese listening practice, not on English

Damkerng T.

I'm sure that my English listening is not as accurate as in Thai.

Anonymous

21:45

I have a ways to go in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

Small distortions can degrade my listening a lot.

Anonymous

That's actually a well-demonstrated effect

Anonymous

L1 speakers typically tolerate noise far better than L2 speakers

Damkerng T.

I totally agree with the ~~idea~~ information.

For one thing I observed, it's much easier to fill in the missing parts in L1.

Anonymous

Of course, an advanced L2 speaker can have very good listening skills, so that's not intended as a true dichotomy, just a typical difference.

Anonymous

21:47

You can fill in a lot in your L1 without even realizing it was missing. You can cut out entire sounds.

Anonymous

Not just hidden under noise, but gone.

Anonymous

In some cases, you might not even notice they're gone unless you're paying close attention.

Damkerng T.

That's very likely!

Anonymous

We're typically good at filling in blanks in our L1, not just phonetically but in other senses as well. We're likely to know what words are coming up a lot of the time, and this helps us fill in sounds or even entire words we couldn't hear

Anonymous

Your expectation influences perception, so if you have accurate perceptions your perception will be more robust

Anonymous

21:51

Most people also naturally develop, to a certain extent, processing of visual input alongside audio input, so that if you can see someone's lips, even if you don't consciously know how to lip read, you're more likely to hear the right sounds

Anonymous

In your L1, you've likely seen people's lips moving while talking unless you're visually impaired

Anonymous

(My housemate, who is legally blind, has not developed this and is not subject to the McGurk effect, for example)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I used lip-reading a lot in the first few years of my working days.

Anonymous

Oh hey, are you familiar with the McGurk effect?

Damkerng T.

I've heard about it, but didn't pay much attention to it.

Anonymous

21:53

It works for most people, but not all. If you haven't checked it out, it's worth seeing a demonstration on YouTube to see if you're one of them.

Anonymous

If for no other reason than it's pretty neat-o.

Damkerng T.

All I know is it is the confusion from the conflict between what we hear and what we see.

Anonymous

Well, it's your mind using visual input to supplement audio input.

Damkerng T.

I tried the video about the effects on YouTube a few times. Sometimes I didn't feel it, sometimes I did.

Anonymous

If you're a good lip reader, you've probably spent enough time paying attention to how people talk physically.

Anonymous

21:55

I think that although it may be a minor point, some language learners would be better off with more audiovisual input, and not just audio

Anonymous

Depending on how they're learning.

Damkerng T.

From that turning-point, I decided not to rely on the visual cues.

Anonymous

I do most of my listening practice with audio only.

Damkerng T.

I think audio only is better in the long term.

Anonymous

I think practicing both with and without is better than doing only one or the other.

Damkerng T.

21:56

But maybe after we know how to pronounce things in L2 properly (or almost properly).

Anonymous

Mostly because you're in situations in real life where you have visual input and where you don't.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

Anonymous

Also because seeing people talk early on, you're more likely to mirror the way they physically talk, I think.

Anonymous

That is, you'll more naturally get the right mouth shape for vowels and so forth.

Damkerng T.

In a large conference room, it's less likely to see the lips of the speaker.

Anonymous

21:58

So I think both kinds of input are valuable.

Anonymous

For a number of reasons.

Anonymous

Sensory integration is more important for some people than others, I think.

Anonymous

But it's at least worth considering :-)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps, it depends on how they learned, I think.

Anonymous

I think there's an innate difference in sensory perception among people.

Anonymous

22:00

That is, I recall reading that in the research. But it's been a while.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... interesting. Maybe true.

Anonymous

And that's in your L1 too, regardless of whether you're learning an L2 language or not.

Anonymous

There's research into it, if you look up "sensory integration".

Damkerng T.

I call that (learning L1) learning too!

Anonymous

Yeah, it is.

Anonymous

22:02

I edited my message :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe.

Anonymous

Actually, people differ in how they handle input of various modalities.

Damkerng T.

Oh! I just recall why I think relying on visual cues is a bad idea.

Anonymous

I don't think anyone should rely on visual cues, because sometimes there are no visual cues.

Anonymous

But that doesn't mean you can't use them if they're there. :-)

Damkerng T.

22:03

I remember that instead of paying attention to the other's face, I had to focus on their lips!

Anonymous

Is it polite to maintain eye contact in Thai culture?

Damkerng T.

In short, I could read their emotion less that I could.

Anonymous

Oh, interesting.

Damkerng T.

It depends

It's about social status.

Anonymous

Oh, I see

Damkerng T.

22:05

So, if we are co-workers or friends, it's fine to maintain our eye contacts.

Anonymous

But if they're above you?

Damkerng T.

Probably not a good idea. :-)

Anonymous

That would be like asserting your equality?

Damkerng T.

Yes, in a way.

But we don't have to avoid looking at the other all the time.

Anonymous

Ahh, I see.

Damkerng T.

22:07

But staring the other's face is a no, no--if they're socially higher.

Anonymous

By the way, if you asked me to explain this stuff about American culture, I couldn't. I'm no good with social conventions that I haven't studied specifically.

Anonymous

But I find them interesting.

Damkerng T.

But we are not as strict as before, I think.

Anonymous

Oh, do you think that reflects social change?

Damkerng T.

My generation is not as strict as previous generations. :-)

Of course.

And some young people care this kind of things less than ever.

But not all of them.

Oh, a few weeks ago, I walked in the heart of the city.

And I walked pass another young man (in his about 20, I think).

And I walked straight on my path.

And he shouldered me.

Then he looked at me, as if I did something wrong, and I should apologize him!

Anonymous

22:11

Oh, rude!

Damkerng T.

Something never happened in the days I was 20!

Anonymous

O tempora o mores!

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

By the way, you could turn that thing about "I haven't known that before" into a question if you want a technobabble explanation for it.

Damkerng T.

(I just learned another nice phrase! :-)

Anonymous

22:14

I haven't really got one, but I bet lots of other people do. StoneyB probably has two.

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Anonymous

Probably something to do with Aktionsart or something like that.

Damkerng T.

I didn't know that term before.

(I typed "haven't known" then edited it. :-)

Anonymous

Congratulations! You've been inducted into the Secret Order of Aktionsart.

Damkerng T.

Oh, this is a little strange. I think Taylor Swift pronounced "This year" as "This ear".

Anonymous

22:19

Hmm. They sound pretty close to me.

Damkerng T.

►

Anonymous

I might need context to distinguish between them.

Anonymous

You're going to make me listen to Taylor Swift?

Damkerng T.

You don't have to. I pasted it just in case you want to. :D

Anonymous

(I'm kidding :-) But tell me when in the clip?)

Damkerng T.

22:20

Less than 20 sec, I think.

Anonymous

Wow, that's some heavy processing on her voice.

Damkerng T.

First verse, first song.

Oh, it's at 0:25.

Anonymous

I hear "this year", but if I pay really close attention it does sound like "ear"

Anonymous

But my mind turns it into "this year"

Anonymous

I suppose there isn't a version where her voice sounds unprocessed

Damkerng T.

22:23

Hmm... I'm not sure if I could find other versions of the same song.

Btw, I take it that her songs are not of your taste. :-)

Anonymous

It's okay. I can find the good in most any song if I want to listen.

Anonymous

I do wish I could turn off my "mixing ears" and stop paying attention to what they've done to her voice.

Anonymous

It distracts me from the music itself.

Anonymous

I know a lot of stuff has processing that's more subtle or artfully done that I simply don't notice. I'm fine with that, too :-)

Anonymous

But when it jumps out at me it's hard to ignore.

Damkerng T.

22:26

I couldn't tell how much (or in what ways) it was processed.

Must be interesting to be able to tell. :-)

Anonymous

Interesting as in "may you live in interesting times!"

Anonymous

May you live in interesting times

"May you live in interesting times", often referred to as the Chinese curse, is the purported translation of an ancient Chinese proverb and curse. However, no Chinese source has ever been found. There is a saying in Chinese "宁为太平犬，莫作乱离人" which roughly translates to "rather live as a dog in peaceful times than to live as a human in turbulent times." Origins Evidence that the phrase was in use as early as 1936 is provided by a memoir written by Hughe Knatchbull-Hugessen who was the British Ambassador to China in 1936 and 1937. The memoir describes an instance of a friend of Knatchbull-Hu...

Damkerng T.

Oh, I meant interesting as I want to have that too!

Anonymous

I was intentionally subverting your meaning!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... saying that reminds me of Meg Ryan.

I think I haven't heard "May you live in interesting times" in any translations into Thai before.

Anonymous

22:29

I've only heard it in English, so far.

Anonymous

I first read it in a Discworld novel.

Anonymous

Interesting Times

Interesting Times is the seventeenth novel in the Discworld series by Terry Pratchett, set in the Aurient (aka Orient). The title refers to the so-called Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times". Plot Two gods, Fate and the Lady, oppose each other in a game over the outcome of the struggle for the throne of the Agatean Empire on the Counterweight Continent. The Patrician of Ankh-Morpork receives a demand that the "Great Wizzard" be sent to the distant Agatean Empire, and he orders Archchancellor Mustrum Ridcully of Unseen University to comply. As the spelling, "Wizzard," matc...

Damkerng T.

Have you ever heard "A dog's head is better than a dragon's tail"?

Anonymous

No.

Anonymous

Is it really?

Damkerng T.

22:30

It's another Chinese proverb.

Anonymous

You'd think a dragon's tail would be pretty nifty.

Damkerng T.

I think in English it's kinda like, maybe, big fish in a small pond, or something like that.

Yes, a big fish in a small pond ~ "A dog's head".

Anonymous

Well, the interesting times bit isn't really a Chinese proverb.

Anonymous

We just call it one in English.

Anonymous

Some more folk wisdom that departs from Chinese:

Anonymous

22:32

Chinese word for "crisis"

The Chinese word for "crisis" () is frequently invoked in Western motivational speaking because the word is composed of two sino-characters that can represent "danger" and "opportunity". However this analysis is fallacious because the character pronounced jī () has other meanings besides "opportunity". Usage American linguist Benjamin Zimmer has traced the English use of weiji back as far as an anonymous editorial in a 1938 journal for missionaries in China. But its use probably gained momentum in the United States after John F. Kennedy employed this trope in a speech he delivered in Ind...

Damkerng T.

This one is well-known, I think.

Anonymous

The way we talk about it in English isn't quite the same as the reality in the Chinese language.

Anonymous

Both this and the "interesting times" bit are worth knowing from an English-speaking cultural perspective, though

Damkerng T.

I think the real Chinese saying is "Change the crisis into an opportunity".

I'm not sure about the word "change". It has the sense of "turn" and "flip" and "change" all combined.

I mean, the one we typically use in Thai's version.

Wuxia novels use this phrase often enough.

I was very into wuxia when I was young. :D

I think wuxia to me was like novels about vampires these days. :-)

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